can humans BE God?

[kmaherali]

So you agree with me that subordinate of PM can not claim to be PM of country. HE WHO IS BORN CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. There is huge difference between CREATOR and CREATION.

I don't agree at all! While an ordinary person who works in the government cannot function as a Prime Minister, a senior member of the cabinet who is also an elected MP can function as a PM in his absence. While he may not be called a PM he can be considered as a PM while functioning as such.

I never said someone can be called God. I said someone who has the abilities of God can be considered as God. There is a difference between calling one God and considering one as being God.

[swamidada]

So you agree with me that subordinate of PM can not claim to be PM of country. HE WHO IS BORN CAN NOT BE CALLED GOD. There is huge difference between CREATOR and CREATION.

I don't agree at all! While an ordinary person who works in the government cannot function as a Prime Minister, a senior member of the cabinet who is also an elected MP can function as a PM in his absence. While he may not be called a PM he can be considered as a PM while functioning as such.

An elected MP can function in place of PM, but he can not decide on most important issues on his own.

You wrote," I never said someone can be called God. I said someone who has the abilities of God can be considered as God. There is a difference between calling one God and considering one as being God".

What do you mean by abilities of God? Can he decide to send a person to hell or paradise?!
How come a person consider himself God, is he insane, please watch the movie " God tusi great ho".

[Admin]

i DO NOT THINK THIS BACK AND FORTH DISCUSSION LEADS TO ANY CONSTRUCTIVE ARGUMENT OR TO ANY CONVINCING.

[kmaherali]

An elected MP can function in place of PM, but he can not decide on most important issues on his own.

He is qualified based on his ministerial experience. When a person acts as a PM, he can make all the decisions on his behalf.

What do you mean by abilities of God? Can he decide to send a person to hell or paradise?!
How come a person consider himself God, is he insane, please watch the movie " God tusi great ho".

Abilities such as bringing the Ganges to his place like Sayyed Imam Shah. Yes the Peer can intercede and send you to paradise and even hell.

When someone loves you and takes care of you, you can consider him a brother although you may not have the same parents.

[swamidada]

An elected MP can function in place of PM, but he can not decide on most important issues on his own.

He is qualified based on his ministerial experience. When a person acts as a PM, he can make all the decisions on his behalf.

What do you mean by abilities of God? Can he decide to send a person to hell or paradise?!
How come a person consider himself God, is he insane, please watch the movie " God tusi great ho".

Abilities such as bringing the Ganges to his place like Sayyed Imam Shah. Yes the Peer can intercede and send you to paradise and even hell.

According to you, "Yes the Peer can intercede and send you to paradise and even hell". ANY EXAMPLE ANY PROOF!!

Ganges did not change the course, it stayed there, disciples were spiritually hypnotized.

[kmaherali]

According to you, "Yes the Peer can intercede and send you to paradise and even hell". ANY EXAMPLE ANY PROOF!!

Proof and example is not required. The notion of intercession is the basis of the bayat that we give the Imam:

"You perform bay‘ah, but you must first understand it’s meaning and then offer bay‘ah. When you offer me bay‘ah it means that you extend your hand to me with a promise…He who obeys me and promises to follow me after offering me Bay‘ah , I also give him my promise that I shall hold his hand in the Hereafter. The trials and tribulations of the Day of Judgment are very frightening and painful. I will keep him away from this. "(Manjewadi, October 31, 1903, quoted in Kamaluddin Ali, Practices and Ceremonies)

Ganges did not change the course, it stayed there, disciples were spiritually hypnotized.

You mean to say that the entire group was hypnotized! Even if that were true, then only a person of Godly attributes could accomplish that.

The collective experience was so powerful and convincing that they converted from being devote Hindus to followers of Sayyed Imam Shah. They would not have done that if it was mere hypnotism!

[swamidada]

According to you, "Yes the Peer can intercede and send you to paradise and even hell". ANY EXAMPLE ANY PROOF!!

Proof and example is not required. The notion of intercession is the basis of the bayat that we give the Imam:

"You perform bay‘ah, but you must first understand it’s meaning and then offer bay‘ah. When you offer me bay‘ah it means that you extend your hand to me with a promise…He who obeys me and promises to follow me after offering me Bay‘ah , I also give him my promise that I shall hold his hand in the Hereafter. The trials and tribulations of the Day of Judgment are very frightening and painful. I will keep him away from this. "(Manjewadi, October 31, 1903, quoted in Kamaluddin Ali, Practices and Ceremonies)

I asked for proof which you don't have, instead you came up with Bay'ah which is not under discussion.

Imam said, "I shall hold his hand in the Hereafter" this is SHAFAYAT. When a Momin is completely in obedience then Imam is guarantor.

[swamidada]

Ganges did not change the course, it stayed there, disciples were spiritually hypnotized.

You mean to say that the entire group was hypnotized! Even if that were true, then only a person of Godly attributes could accomplish that.

Syed Imam Shah was not a Pir.
So you accepted that Ganges did not change its route, it stayed there, but Godman showed them miracle.

[kmaherali]

Imam said, "I shall hold his hand in the Hereafter" this is SHAFAYAT. When a Momin is completely in obedience then Imam is guarantor.

How does he hold his hand?How is he the guarantor?

[kmaherali]

Syed Imam Shah was not a Pir.
So you accepted that Ganges did not change its route, it stayed there, but Godman showed them miracle.

I have not accepted that at all. Just as God can the route of any river, he could change the route of Ganges as well. Hence Sayyed Imam Shah can be considered as God whether he was Peer or not.

How did God show them the miracle?

[kmaherali]

What do you mean by Godman and how did he show the miracle?

[swamidada]

What do you mean by Godman and how did he show the miracle?

According to me, Godman is revered as a special human and is often worshipped by his followers. He is a spiritual person admired and respected. He is near to God but not God himself, and some times shows miracles.

[swamidada]

Imam said, "I shall hold his hand in the Hereafter" this is SHAFAYAT. When a Momin is completely in obedience then Imam is guarantor.

How does he hold his hand?How is he the guarantor?

It is according to Farman you quoted.
Shafayat e Imam Shafayat e Rasul.

[swamidada]

Syed Imam Shah was not a Pir.
So you accepted that Ganges did not change its route, it stayed there, but Godman showed them miracle.

I have not accepted that at all. Just as God can the route of any river, he could change the route of Ganges as well. Hence Sayyed Imam Shah can be considered as God whether he was Peer or not.

How did God show them the miracle?

Let me ask you a question, according to you Syed Imam Shah diverted Ganges river. Can you tell me the name of village or town where Ganges adopted new route. Other question, it means Ganges should be flowing in vicinity of that village till today. Was that near Pirana in Gujrat, India.

[kmaherali]

According to me, Godman is revered as a special human and is often worshipped by his followers. He is a spiritual person admired and respected. He is near to God but not God himself, and some times shows miracles.

Since he is worshipped by his followers, then he is considered as God by them. Since he is close to God as you say, then he has the ability to perform actions which only God can.

[kmaherali]

It is according to Farman you quoted.
Shafayat e Imam Shafayat e Rasul.

You have not answer my question. You are merely restating the Farman. How does he hold the hands and how does he serve as a guarantor as you said.

[kmaherali]

Let me ask you a question, according to you Syed Imam Shah diverted Ganges river. Can you tell me the name of village or town where Ganges adopted new route. Other question, it means Ganges should be flowing in vicinity of that village till today. Was that near Pirana in Gujrat, India.

The purpose of diverting Ganges was not a permanent diversion but rather to make a point to those going to bath daily there that there is no need for them to go to the Ganges to purify themselves when they can have a better path under the Divinely inspired person and hence they converted to the faith of Sayyed Imamshah.

[swamidada]

According to me, Godman is revered as a special human and is often worshipped by his followers. He is a spiritual person admired and respected. He is near to God but not God himself, and some times shows miracles.

Since he is worshipped by his followers, then he is considered as God by them. Since he is close to God as you say, then he has the ability to perform actions which only God can.

Rajneesh Osho was also known as Godman, and even Bhagwan, then what happened?

[swamidada]

It is according to Farman you quoted.
Shafayat e Imam Shafayat e Rasul.

You have not answer my question. You are merely restating the Farman. How does he hold the hands and how does he serve as a guarantor as you said.

First you clarify, on day of judgement will the souls present in bodily form or just in soul form?

[swamidada]

Let me ask you a question, according to you Syed Imam Shah diverted Ganges river. Can you tell me the name of village or town where Ganges adopted new route. Other question, it means Ganges should be flowing in vicinity of that village till today. Was that near Pirana in Gujrat, India.

The purpose of diverting Ganges was not a permanent diversion but rather to make a point to those going to bath daily there that there is no need for them to go to the Ganges to purify themselves when they can have a better path under the Divinely inspired person and hence they converted to the faith of Sayyed Imamshah.

You are a valuable asset for Heritage, what happened to you?
You quoted the following couplet by Syed Imam Shah;

jire bhaai-re pir imaam shaahaa tiyaa(n) hukam-ja kareaa,
ga(n)gaa jamanaa-naa kaanthaa bhiraaje-ji.....4

O dear brothers, There Pir Imam Shah ordered: The banks of rivers Ganges and Yamuna, take a sit here!

Syed Imam Shah ordered Ganga Mayya to come and sit near him. Now you summersaulted and wrote," The purpose of diverting Ganges was not a permanent diversion but rather to make a point to those going to bath daily there". It shows Ganga did not changed the course.

[kmaherali]

Rajneesh Osho was also known as Godman, and even Bhagwan, then what happened?

Of course there are spiritual charlatans and genuine spiritual guides. You have to determine for your self who are the genuine. Sayyed Imam Shah clearly demonstrated that he was indeed a Godman.

[kmaherali]

First you clarify, on day of judgement will the souls present in bodily form or just in soul form?

Of course as souls. So how will the Imam hold our hands and how will he serve as a guarantor?

[kmaherali]

Syed Imam Shah ordered Ganga Mayya to come and sit near him. Now you summersaulted and wrote," The purpose of diverting Ganges was not a permanent diversion but rather to make a point to those going to bath daily there". It shows Ganga did not changed the course.

If he ordered the banks of Ganges to sit where he was, doesn't that imply that he changed the course? He just did it on a temporary basis to make a point.

[swamidada]

First you clarify, on day of judgement will the souls present in bodily form or just in soul form?

Of course as souls. So how will the Imam hold our hands and how will he serve as a guarantor?

Maestro you quoted the Farman and asking me for explanation, no problem.
Let me quote a Quranic Ayah.
YOUM NADUU' KULLA UNASIM BI IMAMHIM. 17/71
The day (day of judgement) when we shall call all groups of people through their Imam.
After Prophet Imam is Shaheed (witness) on people. Those who obeyed Imam completely, Imam is their ZAAMIN (GUARATER). On the day of judgement people's soul will be present so shall be Imam as Universal Soul.

[swamidada]

Rajneesh Osho was also known as Godman, and even Bhagwan, then what happened?

Of course there are spiritual charlatans and genuine spiritual guides. You have to determine for your self who are the genuine. Sayyed Imam Shah clearly demonstrated that he was indeed a Godman.

Apart from Ismails, how can a common person judge or determine for example Swami is a Godman.? What shall be the criteria, standard, or proof? Say Swami is a juggler to trap innocent people then what? NA IDHAR KE RAHEY NA UDHAR KE. Syed Saheb played a trick, hypnotized the group, did those would be followers had ASNAAN IN REAL IN GANAGA MAYYA OR THAT WAS IN SUBCONCIOUS?

[swamidada]

Syed Imam Shah ordered Ganga Mayya to come and sit near him. Now you summersaulted and wrote," The purpose of diverting Ganges was not a permanent diversion but rather to make a point to those going to bath daily there". It shows Ganga did not changed the course.

If he ordered the banks of Ganges to sit where he was, doesn't that imply that he changed the course? He just did it on a temporary basis to make a point.

Hy mai(n) mar jawaa(n). You wrote, "He just did it on a temporary basis to make a point". When point was made Ganga sharmati, Muskurati, bul khaati wapas amni jagha chali gai.
(Just an example) Once Swami also made a point to a group of people. He whistled and his doggi came running near to him. He asked doggi to sit there. Swami then juggled few tricks with doggi to satisfy them. The group was impressed. Then Swami whistled again doggi smiled and ran away.

[kmaherali]

After Prophet Imam is Shaheed (witness) on people. Those who obeyed Imam completely, Imam is their ZAAMIN (GUARATER). On the day of judgement people's soul will be present so shall be Imam as Universal Soul.

So the Imam is not an ordinary soul and has the capacity to send souls to heaven or hell. Isn't that the case!

[kmaherali]

Apart from Ismails, how can a common person judge or determine for example Swami is a Godman.? What shall be the criteria, standard, or proof? Say Swami is a juggler to trap innocent people then what? NA IDHAR KE RAHEY NA UDHAR KE. Syed Saheb played a trick, hypnotized the group, did those would be followers had ASNAAN IN REAL IN GANAGA MAYYA OR THAT WAS IN SUBCONCIOUS?

Through the application of intellect and search for the truth. Nasir Khsraw and Nasiruddin Tusi were not born Ismailis but found the Imam through search. Rumi's master appeared to him when he was ready.

[kmaherali]

(Just an example) Once Swami also made a point to a group of people. He whistled and his doggi came running near to him. He asked doggi to sit there. Swami then juggled few tricks with doggi to satisfy them. The group was impressed. Then Swami whistled again doggi smiled and ran away.

That was not the purpose of Sayyed Imam Shah. An authentic guide will not perform miracles for show and entertainment. He had a serious purpose of conversion. Once the group was convinced that he was a Godman, he restored the Ganges back to its original condition.

[swamidada]

After Prophet Imam is Shaheed (witness) on people. Those who obeyed Imam completely, Imam is their ZAAMIN (GUARATER). On the day of judgement people's soul will be present so shall be Imam as Universal Soul.

So the Imam is not an ordinary soul and has the capacity to send souls to heaven or hell. Isn't that the case!

Imam is SHAHEED, therefore on his recommendation God can send to heaven or hell.