Dua Old and New - Asal Dua, Asal Ghat Pat Dua

[amirhashim]

This topic is regarding the old and new dua. Those who submit their replies, the intention is to collect memories about an era. If you were around in 1956 during that time or have information then please share it with us. The intention is to gather information, not to cause controversies. This is for historical purposes only, and would like to remind everybody to reserve comments which cause conflict. 1. What do you remember of the dua changing from old to new? 2. What proof, firmans, talika, messages (councils or otherwise) were communicated in Jamat Khane at that time? 3. What proof do you have (critical evidence) that the Vishnu puri, Ali Sahi Allah, and Lizikri Sujood, were removed by the Imam in a written document or communicated? If so, what words were used? This information will be used for historical purposes and ties in with the new changes that Mowlana Hazar Imam is doing regarding Dua and Namaz.

[star_munir]

There are Farmans in KIM Volume 2, when new Arabic Dua was introduced. You may read it.

[amirhashim]

Star_munir, thank you for your reply but I asked specifically for your experience at that time. This is a topic to share what they remember. Along with that you must document your proof. Doesn't have to be long. The farman which you're referring to is dated 15-1-1951. What we're discussing is 1956. There were at least 10 versions of the dua before the one recited today. Kindly provide documentation and please don't quote of Hazer Imam (Karim) in 1956. That was simply a message. We're looking for the points mentioned above including specific quotes from Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah, as well as personal experiences of any Ismaili who remembers sitting in Jamat Khane and what was read in print. Who said what and when.

[nagib]

Since the purpose of your thread is to collect historical data, you may link this to other posts about the Asal Dua and the New Dua.

I know about the many changes around 1968/69 when the new Dua was finalized to what we recite today as this was the time when I was learning the Dua and it was absolutely maddening that almost every month we used to receive a circular from Supreme Council saying now you add this words and now you remove this word and now you come back to this version.

That was the time when at one of the international conference of the Ismailia Association Hazar Imam said he did not want 2 kind of Dua recited in his Jamat as Pakistan was reciting the Dua with allah humma laka sujoodi promoted by [Kasamali missionary] at the end of the chapters while Africa was reciting Lizikrihi soojood. [as prescribed by the Imam and defended by Shamshu Tejpar / Abuali]

We were hearing that in Syria Jamat there were fights amongst people who recited the way Imam had prescribed [Lizikrihi sujood] and the way Pakistan Association under whose jurisdiction the Syria Jamat was, was told to recite [wa taati]. When one Ismaili in Syria would meet another he would ask are you wa taati or lizikrihi sujood and they would go to different Jamatkahna. That was a sad period. See the discussion about related subject in Doctrines and Rites and ceremonies sections...

You may be able to compile some fact on the changes from various discussions at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 52&start=0

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 35&start=0

or better do a search in the Forum.

The changes from Asal Dua to Recent Dua in 1956 made by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah were sent with a Talika and the present Dua [minus subsequent changes] recited by Shah Karim [who was not yet Imam] to the Madagascar Jamat. That Dua was published and recited throughout the Jamat but there was a problem because Pakistan was emerging as a Nation and the Ismailia Association at that time decided that it would not be wise to recited a Dua with a Sujudo [prosternation] to the Imam. There was also a strong pressure to recite Namaz to escape the persecutions from our so tolerant Muslim brothers [who keep killing each other still today for matter even less serious then this]. That let to the recitation of 2 different versions in the Ismaili jamat, according to their geography and culture in which they lived. I have read a correspondence between the Ismailia Association for Canada and that one of Pakistan in the late 1970s' where the Ismailia Association for Canada was telling its sister association that if they wanted to abandon Dua they should at least go for a Namaz as recited by the Fatimids and not go with the common Sunni namaz. I think this is the kind of document you need from 1956 onwards to complete this study.

Nagib

[From_Alamut]

Ya Ali Madad and Salam

I suggest that if my Jamat would check this wonderful and humble Anila Ishani al-waez. Her waezing is based on our "Dua Philisophy", Mashallah it is amazing. The waezing contain two parts. The language is in English and the lecture is three hours.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/audio-waez- ... er2[]=1734

[amirhashim]

Nagib, that is excellent information. Thank you for replying so well. It must have been a very confusing period. If there was a division between lizikri sujood and allahuma laka sujoodi wa tati then lets try to understand that period in history. The significance being that lizikri sujood is direct after the Imam's name. Also, alfus salam was taken out in the 2nd part and the 5 holy bodies, namely Mohamed, Fatima, Ali, Hasan and Husein were inserted in the sixth part. Remember that before Ali's name it used to say in old dua: wachan Abu Talib Vali, linking Abu Talib and Ali. Nagib and everybody please join in and comment on your experiences so we can pieces together this very important article of dua.

[ShamsB]

Nagib, that is excellent information. Thank you for replying so well. It must have been a very confusing period. If there was a division between lizikri sujood and allahuma laka sujoodi wa tati then lets try to understand that period in history. The significance being that lizikri sujood is direct after the Imam's name. Also, alfus salam was taken out in the 2nd part and the 5 holy bodies, namely Mohamed, Fatima, Ali, Hasan and Husein were inserted in the sixth part. Remember that before Ali's name it used to say in old dua: wachan Abu Talib Vali, linking Abu Talib and Ali. Nagib and everybody please join in and comment on your experiences so we can pieces together this very important article of dua.

I have been looking for a copy of the both the old dua and a the original version of the new dua - which as my mom tells me also had Fikhul Wujud? somwhere - whenever she recites the dua in JK that's what she ends up reciting as that's what she was taught.

Does anyone have a copy of the old dua in eformat?

Shams

[amirhashim]

Fikhul Wujud

Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.

[ShamsB]

Fikhul Wujud

Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.

It would be interesting to note and also capture the old/asal dua in english - as most only have it in Gujrati - if someone could transcribe it in English, that would be great.
In regards to parts of the old dua - we say parts of it daily - when we do dua karavi - tobho tobho - as well as after most of our tasbihs - Dua Niyat Khairji - that was one of the bigger sajdas in the old dua.

Shams

[prince_visram]

Fikhul Wujud

Regarding that part, can you please let us know what part your mother was referring to. Perhaps we can figure out where it is. Anybody who has the asal dual kindly help out. In our search for the events that took place in the changing of the dua, kindly also contribute the change in Gat Pat Dua. Both go hand in hand. The first part of the Gat Pat Dua invoked the name of Nakalank (Nakalanki naath). If you compare the asal dua and the new dua there are visible differences.

1. Amirul Momineen Ali Sahi Allah changed to Aliyyun Amirul Momineen Aliyullah. The syntax of the two is polar opposite; Amirul Momineen carefully placed interchanges the meaning. One being a title, the other being inclusive.

2. Ali Mohamed Yak Kuda changed to Ali Mohamed Noor Allah bar Hak, then was completely dropped.

3. Das Avtaar, including Abu Talib as the Imam prior to Ali was removed completely.

There is a version dated February 18th, 1950. A firman follows on that date. If that is true, then: why are there subsiquent versions afterwards? And if the changes were not suffice then why in 1954 there is a complete Gat Paat Dua, but a changed Dua? Since the firman says: I've changed the dua with my own hands, then was there a complete shift to an arabic dua? Remember, the dua we recite today is not really new. Parts of it can be found in the asal dua.

The new dua isn't really "new" at all. It's a carefully edited version of the asal dua. The second part, third part, and the lineage all belong to the original dua. That means there was a "systematic removal" of the identity of the Imam. Changing from him being a God, to him being a mortal like anybody else.

Such even those of you remember that there were pictures of the Imam at the front of the Jamat Khana up until around the 90's. Now you have 2 pictures, both interestingly facing the same direction, on the sides. It's a purposly crafted movement to remove the identity of the Imam. Now the children are confused and people question who the Imam is.

Now that the new "Namaz" is coming up, the question of identity was central in the Imam's taliqa. Let us gather information concerning the shift of 1956 and contribute to the events that took place. Continue submitting your ideas and comments.

It would be interesting to note and also capture the old/asal dua in english - as most only have it in Gujrati - if someone could transcribe it in English, that would be great.
In regards to parts of the old dua - we say parts of it daily - when we do dua karavi - tobho tobho - as well as after most of our tasbihs - Dua Niyat Khairji - that was one of the bigger sajdas in the old dua.

Shams

I would also be very thankful to have a copy of the old Dua because I would love to read it but I don't have it english. Thank you and if you have it, please PM me, Thanks again!! Prince_Visram

[kmaherali]

the question is can a mortal be a god or god can be a mortal ????? if the answer is NO then what was the need for god to hide his own identity ?

is god scared ??

It is not a matter of hiding his identity. It is about appearing according to context and audience. There are many levels of understanding the Imam and therefore what is said in the Dua should reflect this diversity of understanding.

Each murid has his/her own relationship with the Imam. To some he is just a human being, to some a friend, to some a father and to some he is Khudavind. The Imam appears to each person according to his/her capacity to know him.

[goldfaizi]

Ya Ali Madad,

I really need old dua. I have tried alot to get old dua from Jamat Khana Library but i won't get it yet. Kindly PM me old dua whether it would be in english version or other. I will really appreciate it.

Thanks.

[mahebubchatur]

Here is one version recited of the Asal Dua as recited during the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (cut and paste in your browser)


If anyone has the text and the meaning can you please post here.

[Admin]

There is one translation of the Asal Dua (not the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua) on this website

It is in the restricted secton. To get the pasword of the R.E. section write an email to [email protected]

http://sun.ismaili.net/re/dua.html

[agakhani]

If any one wants our "Old dua" composed by Pir Sadardin in Gujarati, which was recited almost 600 years in Indo-Pak subcontinents JKs then please e-mail me.

Only thing you have to prove me that you are an Ismailis!

[kmaherali]

In September 1956, Imam Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent a Special Holy Message to the Jamats in Africa, which was brought and read out by Mawlana Hazar Imam (Shah Karim), and which contained the following passage:

"One of Mowlana Hazar Imam's greatest wishes is being accomplished now: the Du'a will be soon translated into Arabic. Since the 8th century, that is to say the birth of our great religion, Arabic has been the language of Islam. It is probably the most beautiful and most complete of all languages spoken today. For these reasons Mowlana Hazar Imam is very firm in his wish that you should learn the Du'a in Arabic when it is ready."

This new Du'a in Arabic was first introduced in Syria some time before September 1956. Thereafter it was introduced in Africa in accordance with the above-mentioned Holy Message of Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.

[Admin]

This new Du'a in Arabic was first introduced in Syria some time before September 1956. Thereafter it was introduced in Africa in accordance with the above-mentioned Holy Message of Mawlana Sultan Muhammad Shah.

The last Dua prescribed by the 48th Imam in 1956 continued AS PRESCRIBED up to 1969. (Except in India and Pakistan)

Here is an example of it from the book published in Tanzania in 1967

[Admin]

The date is not found in the cover page of this book, however the first book published in 1956 had "Sultan Muhammad Shah lizikrihi sujud" but this one has Shah Karim lizikihi sujud. From memory, the book was printed around 1965 or 1966.

Up to 1964, the country was named Tanganyika, not Tanzania but this book says Tanzania so it came out after the name of the country changed on 29 October 1964. (Tanganyika + Zanzibar = Tanzania)

There will be a complete study of the evolution of the Dua from the time of 40th Imam Nizar II up to today's 49th Imam. We hope that this will be completed in a couple of years, maybe more. Once it is ready. it will be made available to all. We are still in the process to scan and identify all versions of the Dua in print in various script as well as in manuscripts. We are doing the same exercise with all the version through time of the Ismaili Constitution starting 1905.

We will not post scans of entire books in the Forum, there is a new document server being set to host the large number of scans.

Be patient

[ShamsB]

The date is not found in this book, however the first book published in 1956 had "Sultan Muhammad Shah lizikrihi sujud" but this one has Shah Karim lizikihi sujud. From memory, the book was printed around 1965 or 1966.

Up to 1964, the country was named Tanganyika, not Tanzania but this book says Tanzania so it came out after the name of the country changed on 29 October 1964. (Tanganyika + Zanzibar = Tanzania)

There will be a complete study of the evolution of the Dua from the time of 40th Imam Nizar II up to today's 49th Imam. We hope that this will be completed in a couple of years, maybe more. Once it is ready. it will be made available to all. We are still in the process to scan and identify all versions of the Dua in print in various script as well as in manuscripts. We are doing the same exercise with all the version through time of the Ismaili Constitution starting 1905.

We will not post scans of entire books in the Forum, there is a new document server being set to host the large number of scans.

Be patient

This was published in 1972. I have the same book.

Shams

[Admin]

There is no date on the book. Following a circular of the Supreme Council, we stopped reciting this Dua in 1969. There is post above in the thread that explains that Hazar Imam did not bring these changes.

There is no Farmans to change this Dua though some mistaken people think there is one. The decision to change was left with the word Ismailia Association meeting, basically between Pakistan (Kassamali) and Africa Ismaili Association (Tejpar) to decide. The only instruction of the Imam at that conference in Nairobi was that he did not want 2 different Duas recited by Ismailis. All this has been discussed in length previously. The Imam never said to discontinue Liikrihi Sujud, the decision was made at that Conference by the leaders of the then Ismaili Association.

It is unlikely that Tanzania Ismaili Association would print the Liikrihi Sujud Dua after the circular of the Supreme Council of 1969 but of course if you have a date in your version, it would be interesting to see. You can send me a photo to [email protected] and I will post it here.

We need to ascertain at what date the new Dua was printed in Africa and what date was the last publication of the Lizikrihi Sujud Dua in Africa so we can be precise on the history of the Dua.

[Admin]

In 1987 Imam made a Farman in Africa that it is the prerogative of Imam to make changes in Tariqah.

The Farman you quoted nowhere says what you pretend about illegitimate changes brought in the Dua by the then Pakistan Ismaili Association in defiance to Imam's Talika.

if you have a Farman changing the Dua introduced with a Talika read by Mowlana Shah Karim to the Jamat, post it here else please refrain from posting fake news.

[swamidada_1]

I asked Admin and Shams B to post last paragraphs of our Dua before LIZIKRIHI SUJUD because they both have copies of 1956 Dua but they hesitate and shy ( I know the reason). Here I am posting these paragraphs. There is no difference in these paragraphs of 1956 Dua and 1960 Dua prescribed by Hazar Imam Shah Karim. In 1960 Dua the words LIZIKRIHI SUJUD WERE OMITTED.

First part:
O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad - the
Chosen, and on 'Ali - the favourite, and on the Imams -
the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the
Lord of the age and the time, our present living Imam,
our Mowla Shah Karim al Hussaini to whose name prostration is due (LIZIKRIHI SUJUD).

Second Part (Kalma):
There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the
Prophet of Allah, Ali - the master of believers is form Allah.

Third Part:
There is no deity except Allah. the Lord of the Day
of Judgment:

There is no hero except 'Aly. there is no sword
except (his sword) 'Zulfiqar'

At the time of difficulties and calamities seek help of our present Imam Shah Karim al Hussaini to whose name prostration is due.

Fourth Part:
O Allah, forgive us our sins, and give us our bread,
and have mercy upon us, in the name of Thy closest
Messengers and Thy holy Imams, and in the name of
our Mowla and our Imam, Shah Karim al-Hussaini to whose name prostration is due.

Fifth Part:
O Imam of the time, O our Lord, Thou art my
strength and Thou art my support and on Thee I rely.
O present O living, O Shah Karim al Hussaini, Thou art
the true manifest Imam

Part Sixth:
O Allah, in the name of Muhammad - the chosen,
and Ali - the favorite, and Fatima - the radiant, and
(Hazrat) Hasan, and (Imam) Hussain.

O Allah in the name of our Mowla Ali
(In the name of) our Mowla Hussain
(In the name of) our Mowla Zainil Abideen
Recite 48 names of Imams

Last paragraph;
O Allah and in the name of of our Mowla and present Imam Shah Karim al Hussaini forgive our sins and have mercy on us.

[Admin]

In 1960 Dua the words LIZIKRIHI SUJUD WERE OMITTED.

In 1960 and before only in Pakistan and Jamats under Pakistani influence it was omitted, it was not omitted in Africa where it was recited at least till 1969 as proves the book of Dua with Lizikrihi Sujod by "Tanzania" Ismaili Association. (Tanzania existence date 1964- see postings above)

[Admin]

Here is the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua attributed to Pir Sadardin.

Download AUDIO here - 27MB

http://ismaili.net/source/dua/ghatpaat-dua.m4a

[kmaherali]

Here is the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua attributed to Pir Sadardin.

Download AUDIO here - 27MB

http://ismaili.net/source/dua/ghatpaat-dua.m4a

Thanks for sharing! Very interesting...

[swamidada_1]

Lately I visited Europe. In London an African Ismaili aged 80+ graciuosly provided me a copy of Dua prescribed by MSMS for African jamaits in 1956. Also he shared with me some crutial information about Dua and a dialogue between Rai Shamsuddin Tejpar and Hazar Imam on subject of Ali Allah and Aliyyullah in 1964 during a meeting of presidents of Ismaila Associations. Hazar Imam clearly mentioned the meaning of Aliyyullah is 'Ali is from Allah'.

Some information about that Dua;
The Dua is printed on 16 pages including meaning of Dua. The publisher of that Dua is; The Shia Imami Ismailia Associations for Africa. There is no date or year printed in that booklet (I assume Admin may have that copy of Dua).
In second part of Dua, there is clearly mentioned the meaning of Aliyyullah as 'Ali is from Allah'.
In the sixth part there is no mention of Punjtan Paak after Surah Ikhlas as is recited in current Dua.
At end of all parts od Dua, jamaits did not had to recite any thing like in present Dua 'Allahuma laka sujjudi wa taa'ati'.
Also there are changes and omissions of some words and sentences in 1956 Dua and current Dua.

[Admin]

Post the version you have so that we can assess the credibility of your post. Thanks you.

There is no such thing as the Dua prescribed for African Jamat, the Dua of Lizikrihi Sujud was prescribed for all Ismailis,. The Dua recited by Shah Karim was introduced to the world Jamat with the Talika from Sultan Muhammad Shah to henceforth recite that Dua.. As for the meaning of Aliyullah, any Arabic linguist will tell the meaning is same as Ali Sahi Allah.

Admin

[kmaherali]

.
In second part of Dua, there is clearly mentioned the meaning of Aliyyullah as 'Ali is from Allah'.

What is the sense of saying Aliyyullah if it is meant 'Ali is from Allah'. Aren't we all from Allah? Then what is the difference between him and us?

[swamidada_1]

.
In second part of Dua, there is clearly mentioned the meaning of Aliyyullah as 'Ali is from Allah'.

What is the sense of saying Aliyyullah if it is meant 'Ali is from Allah'. Aren't we all from Allah? Then what is the difference between him and us?

Dua is foundation of our Tariqah given by Imam to recite 3 times daily. The phrase Aliyyullah is given by MSMS. Please refer changes in Dua in 1950 version. In that booklet of Dua 'Aliyyullah' is mentioned 11 times. The phrase Aliyyullah was not inserted by me, neither I translated it as 'Ali is from Allah'. The meaning is explained by Imam himself. All translation books of Dua published by ITREBs have meaning given "Ali is from Allah". ITREB works under guidance of Imam.
Please refer to your one old post where you have given meaning of Aliyyullah as 'Ali is from Allah, how come!? Now you are somersaulting.
The Android App introduced by Admin has given meaning of Aliyyullah as 'Ali is from Allah', that app is not from my side, why to blame me. I am setting record correct.

[swamidada_1]