The Holy Qur'an - Early Manuscripts

[shivaathervedi]

The above article in my opinion is not in par with Ismaili philosophy.
Allah created 5 Noorani entities before and introduced them to Adam saying if I have not created them, you and universe would not have been created.

My innocent question, why Bibi zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsan are not included in PANJTAN PAAK THOUGH THEY WERE CHILDREN OF MOWLA ALI AND BIBI FATIMAH.

[kmaherali]

10 Surprising Facts to Know Before Reading the Qur’an

https://ismailignosis.com/2016/09/14/10 ... the-quran/

[zznoor]

10 Surprising Facts to Know Before Reading the Qur’an

https://ismailignosis.com/2016/09/14/10 ... the-quran/

why is Bolts Quran silant? He can write it down in Zip! Recite it one chapter every day and audio, Vedio record it. Others can transcribe it later.
Actually Bolt Quran is not Hafiz. It's a myth. Remember "Wizard of Oz"!

[zznoor]

My innocent question, why Bibi zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsan are not included in PANJTAN PAAK THOUGH THEY WERE CHILDREN OF MOWLA ALI AND BIBI FATIMAH.

Thete is a Hadith of Kissa
Prophet covered 5 people with his cloak

[kmaherali]

why is Bolts Quran silant? He can write it down in Zip! Recite it one chapter every day and audio, Vedio record it. Others can transcribe it later.
Actually Bolt Quran is not Hafiz. It's a myth. Remember "Wizard of Oz"!

If the majority did not accept Hazarat Ali at Ghadir, what makes you think that they will accept whatever his 49th descendant says 1400 years later? Of course for his murids his guidance is continuous.

[shivaathervedi]

My innocent question, why Bibi zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsan are not included in PANJTAN PAAK THOUGH THEY WERE CHILDREN OF MOWLA ALI AND BIBI FATIMAH.

Thete is a Hadith of Kissa
Prophet covered 5 people with his cloak

Why 2 daughters of Ali and Fatimah left out side cloak, was there an urgency?They lived at near distance can easily been called to include in cloak or there was an order from Allah only 5 no more.

[Admin]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

[kmaherali]

For Sunnis Panj tan paak is equivalent to Ahl al-Bayt. For Shias Ahl al-Bayt extends beyond the Panj tan paak to include the progeny and for Ismailis it also includes the predecessors.

On page two of this thread, I have attempted an explaination of why only five as opposed to seven.

[shivaathervedi]

For Sunnis Panj tan paak is equivalent to Ahl al-Bayt. For Shias Ahl al-Bayt extends beyond the Panj tan paak to include the progeny and for Ismailis it also includes the predecessors.

On page two of this thread, I have attempted an explaination of why only five as opposed to seven.

I can't find explanation of 5/7 on page 2 of this thread.

[shivaathervedi]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

[ShamsB]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

And lastly - from what i checked - we're ismailies - and it is the Imam that interprets the Quran - not someone who's doesn't even understand the notion of ismailism.

Shams

[kmaherali]

I can't find explanation of 5/7 on page 2 of this thread.

It is on the page:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

[shivaathervedi]

I can't find explanation of 5/7 on page 2 of this thread.

It is on the page:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

I read it again. I had already replied to your that post in that thread.

[shivaathervedi]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

And lastly - from what i checked - we're ismailies - and it is the Imam that interprets the Quran - not someone who's doesn't even understand the notion of ismailism.

Shams

Shams ji Aadab,
Aji bahut der kar detey ho aatey aatey, aankhe(n) taras jati hai(n) aap ki post dekhney ke liay.
The phrase PUNJTAN PAAK as it is not used in Quran then how Imam will interpret it? To day's youth is different in comparison to 60 years back of your time. Let me quote here a couplete of Poetess Parveen Shakir; The name of her famous book is 'KHUSHBU'

DIN KE WAQT JUGNU KO PARAKHNA CHAHE(N)
HAMAREY DAUR KE BACHHEY BAHUT CHALAAK HO GAIY

[ShamsB]

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

And lastly - from what i checked - we're ismailies - and it is the Imam that interprets the Quran - not someone who's doesn't even understand the notion of ismailism.

Shams

Shams ji Aadab,
Aji bahut der kar detey ho aatey aatey, aankhe(n) taras jati hai(n) aap ki post dekhney ke liay.
The phrase PUNJTAN PAAK as it is not used in Quran then how Imam will interpret it? To day's youth is different in comparison to 60 years back of your time. Let me quote here a couplete of Poetess Parveen Shakir; The name of her famous book is 'KHUSHBU'

DIN KE WAQT JUGNU KO PARAKHNA CHAHE(N)
HAMAREY DAUR KE BACHHEY BAHUT CHALAAK HO GAIY

See here's the problem - you forget that you're Shia - or maybe you are not - but you forget that WE are Shia - and in Shi'ism it is the IMAM that interprets the Quran for us and that too those parts that are relevant to the practice of the Faith....

Your statements reek of arrogance - you seem to have an interpretation of the Quran that you want to shove down our throats.

1. Last time I checked - you aren't our Imam
2. I didn't give Baiyat to you.
3. You haven't been asked to interpret the Quran
4. The secrets of the Quran are only open to those who are Rasikun Fil Ilm - which you have clearly proved you are not.

So - i'd suggest you really get yourself examined.

Shams

[ShamsB]

My innocent question, why Bibi zainab, Bibi Umm e Kulsum, and Hazrat Muhsan are not included in PANJTAN PAAK THOUGH THEY WERE CHILDREN OF MOWLA ALI AND BIBI FATIMAH.

Thete is a Hadith of Kissa
Prophet covered 5 people with his cloak

Why 2 daughters of Ali and Fatimah left out side cloak, was there an urgency?They lived at near distance can easily been called to include in cloak or there was an order from Allah only 5 no more.

Thanks ZZnoor - for once you're corraborating the events.

[ShamsB]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

Maybe next time - you ask a more pertinent question...Is Ali Allah? and if the Angel could visit ZZNoor?

Are you sure it was an angel or your rampant ego and imagination?

Shams

[shivaathervedi]

And lastly - from what i checked - we're ismailies - and it is the Imam that interprets the Quran - not someone who's doesn't even understand the notion of ismailism.

Shams

Shams ji Aadab,
Aji bahut der kar detey ho aatey aatey, aankhe(n) taras jati hai(n) aap ki post dekhney ke liay.
The phrase PUNJTAN PAAK as it is not used in Quran then how Imam will interpret it? To day's youth is different in comparison to 60 years back of your time. Let me quote here a couplete of Poetess Parveen Shakir; The name of her famous book is 'KHUSHBU'

DIN KE WAQT JUGNU KO PARAKHNA CHAHE(N)
HAMAREY DAUR KE BACHHEY BAHUT CHALAAK HO GAIY

See here's the problem - you forget that you're Shia - or maybe you are not - but you forget that WE are Shia - and in Shi'ism it is the IMAM that interprets the Quran for us and that too those parts that are relevant to the practice of the Faith....

Your statements reek of arrogance - you seem to have an interpretation of the Quran that you want to shove down our throats.

1. Last time I checked - you aren't our Imam
2. I didn't give Baiyat to you.
3. You haven't been asked to interpret the Quran
4. The secrets of the Quran are only open to those who are Rasikun Fil Ilm - which you have clearly proved you are not.

So - i'd suggest you really get yourself examined.

Shams

Most humbly, respectfully, earnestly, peacefully ( there should be some other prefix --lys can't recall now) request that I am neither arrogant or ignorant.
What kind of REEK you like rose or jasmine.

SHISHI BHARI GULLAB KI PATHAR PE TORR DU(N)

Sir you did not addressed my question," there is no mention of phrase PUNJTAN PAAK in Quran, how Imam will interpret it."
I know in Ismaili Tariqa Imam interprets Quran, Shams and Shiva will interpret according to their religious/spiritual IQ. Mostly not acceptable by all.
HI DEVA, I did not claimed to be Raskhun fil Ilm, Imam is Raskhun fil Ilm as mentioned by Imam Ja'far Sadiq.
Your suggestion is noted, but who will examine me, last time a doctor examined me, you know what happenEd, WOH KHUD PAGAL HO GAYA BECHARAH.

[shivaathervedi]

Thete is a Hadith of Kissa
Prophet covered 5 people with his cloak

Why 2 daughters of Ali and Fatimah left out side cloak, was there an urgency?They lived at near distance can easily been called to include in cloak or there was an order from Allah only 5 no more.

Thanks ZZnoor - for once you're corraborating the events.

The event of Kissa is well known and I know it. Do you believe Bibi Zainab and Bibi Umm Kulsum were daughters of Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah, Yes or No?
If yes why they were left out side Prophet's cloak?
ZZ Noor insists Imam is not God, Pirs are not Prophet, follow Quran, respect Suhabah, Why don't you accept her these preaching?

[shivaathervedi]

One should nor confuse Panj Tan Pak and Ahle Bait. These are different concepts.

As to the question, it has to be asked to Allah, no one in this Forum will be able to ask why it was 5 and not more except the one who took the decision.

In my dream, I requested an angel of communication to request God on my behalf, Why not 7 instead of 5. In few moments I got reply through that angel;
He said, I have not mentioned PUNJTAN PAAK IN QURAN.

Maybe next time - you ask a more pertinent question...Is Ali Allah? and if the Angel could visit ZZNoor?

Are you sure it was an angel or your rampant ego and imagination?

Shams

ZZ Noor got answer, she believes Ali is not Allah.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Pajantan paak is an asiatic urdu/persian coined word and be not an pure arabic word.
with 05 main of Ahle Bayt and Salman faras added by by entity .
so what so great if is not written in Quran.
is the exact way of posturing to pray is also mentioned in Quran.? NO
word namaaz is not mentioned but salaat is understood as same.
read the Ayats of 'there is an those roasted their skin be roasted to black and one Ayat
stating those blessed will have garden with water flowing beneath.

you see both in reality today.
why is a mainly Shariati child born in sub sahara africa as black deprived
of food shelter medicine and almost right to basic human life
and we also have one child born in Switzerland to a white family a christian a happy glowing faces family.
with natural gardens and fertile land and beauty( water flowing beneath)
the unemployment dole is there at US 2000 per month ( a desi brown skin needs to slog & stand 222 hours a month in gas station to make that in USA a great
country).
God is not unjust both those souls are being punished from their acts and faith past lives .
one may have abused tariqat and comited crimes etc and other followed rightly the path of Jesus ( haqiqat level prophet).
Shariatis are abusing the level of thier own entity by clowning themsleves
and mimicing him to unwarranted level
but what was the true status of the entity is said by MHI in a speech on Seerat conference decades back
now a soul being born in in disaster area and one in alpine beauty and happy family specifically written
but nature of skin colour,problems and landscapes is written.
99.999% of earth population cannot understand just a few words of the Quran.
If a question is asked on face value of most ayats with no changes made by me
if they truly believe that those are words of God. or fabricated
the will deny.
educated and clever will have maximum 20% belief in God words
and more ignorant lesser percentage.
they are real term cannot even submit more than 20% to his word and will and they disqualify themselves to be apart of faith known as Islam
but calling themselves Muslims( 20% accepting Qurani soul).
A Hindu at Tariqat( rational sense) level of his religion and christian at haqaqti( intellect level) of his religion is 100x to 1000x are greater souls than a rotten Shariati( ignorant to common sense level) living on this earth. a 10x small timer passing time on Earth.

[Admin]

Panj Tan Pak is discussed on

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... &start=120

Do not discuss here. Please follow the thread.e

[zznoor]

Ya Ali Madad.
Pajantan paak is an asiatic urdu/persian coined word and be not an pure arabic word.
with 05 main of Ahle Bayt and Salman faras added by by entity .
so what so great if is not written in Quran.
is the exact way of posturing to pray is also mentioned in Quran.? NO
word namaaz is not mentioned but salaat is understood as same.
read the Ayats of 'there is an those roasted their skin be roasted to black and one Ayat
stating those blessed will have garden with water flowing beneath.

you see both in reality today.
why is a mainly Shariati child born in sub sahara africa as black deprived
of food shelter medicine and almost right to basic human life
and we also have one child born in Switzerland to a white family a christian a happy glowing faces family.
with natural gardens and fertile land and beauty( water flowing beneath)
the unemployment dole is there at US 2000 per month ( a desi brown skin needs to slog & stand 222 hours a month in gas station to make that in USA a great
country).
God is not unjust both those souls are being punished from their acts and faith past lives .
one may have abused tariqat and comited crimes etc and other followed rightly the path of Jesus ( haqiqat level prophet).
Shariatis are abusing the level of thier own entity by clowning themsleves
and mimicing him to unwarranted level
but what was the true status of the entity is said by MHI in a speech on Seerat conference decades back
now a soul being born in in disaster area and one in alpine beauty and happy family specifically written
but nature of skin colour,problems and landscapes is written.
99.999% of earth population cannot understand just a few words of the Quran.
If a question is asked on face value of most ayats with no changes made by me
if they truly believe that those are words of God. or fabricated
the will deny.
educated and clever will have maximum 20% belief in God words
and more ignorant lesser percentage.
they are real term cannot even submit more than 20% to his word and will and they disqualify themselves to be apart of faith known as Islam
but calling themselves Muslims( 20% accepting Qurani soul).
A Hindu at Tariqat( rational sense) level of his religion and christian at haqaqti( intellect level) of his religion is 100x to 1000x are greater souls than a rotten Shariati( ignorant to common sense level) living on this earth. a 10x small timer passing time on Earth.

Admin
ASAK

What this BS post has to do with "The holy Quran-Early manuscripts "?

is the exact way of posturing to pray is also mentioned in Quran.?

Quran mentions praying in standing, sitting, bowing and in Sujud. How Muslim should pray was shown to umma by Prophet SAW. He was taught by gibreal.

It is same as Ismailis follow ritual of Dua, is it in Quran?

[fayaz006]

Ya Ali Madad.

is the exact way of posturing to pray is also mentioned in Quran.?

Quran mentions praying in standing, sitting, bowing and in Sujud. How Muslim should pray was shown to umma by Prophet SAW. He was taught by gibreal.

It is same as Ismailis follow ritual of Dua, is it in Quran?

Interesting.
Quran mentions prayer as remembrance of God, helping others, searching for God or researching the aspects of creation and several other forms. But not once in my readings have i ever seen the text of the Namaz mentioned. Or have i seen a particular format for Salat. So i must ask, if the text of Namaz is not mentioned in the Quran, is it valid form of prayer? Afterall it has to be in Quran correct?
Since the hadiths were written down at the minimum 200 - 300 years after the demise of the profit, any reasonable person would assume that they have inaccuracies. So i suppose when you perform the namaz, are you absolutely sure that your prayers are reaching God. Are you absolutely sure that you are performing your prayers exactly like the prophet? If you are not than by your reasoning aren't you out of luck on the day of judgement?

[zznoor]

Quran mentions prayer as remembrance of God, helping others, searching for God or researching the aspects of creation and several other forms. But not once in my readings have i ever seen the text of the Namaz mentioned. Or have i seen a particular format for Salat. So i must ask, if the text of Namaz is not mentioned in the Quran, is it valid form of prayer? Afterall it has to be in Quran correct?
Since the hadiths were written down at the minimum 200 - 300 years after the demise of the profit, any reasonable person would assume that they have inaccuracies. So i suppose when you perform the namaz, are you absolutely sure that your prayers are reaching God. Are you absolutely sure that you are performing your prayers exactly like the prophet? If you are not than by your reasoning aren't you out of luck on the day of judgement?

Ritual of Salat was taught to Prophet by Gebrael and prophet taught to his followers we call them Sahabas.
This method of praying was taught from generation to generation. I was taught to pray by somebody who learned from his grandpa. Fortunately all the people in that tariqa prayed same way, same times and same number of fird, sunna, Nafals etc etc.
Prophet SAW said
"Pray as you have seen me praying" (Shahih so Bukhari vol 1 hadih 604)

If you do not believe this then do you believe Hz Ali actually wrote letters to commander when to pray 5 prayers
I will quote it below

Quote:
Nahajul Balaga Letter 52: Ali's letter to the Governors of various places concerning prayers

Now, say the zuhr (noon) prayers with the people when the shade of the wall of the goats' pen is equal to the wall. Say the `asr (afternoon) prayers with them when the sun is still shining in a portion of the day enough for covering the distance of two farsakhs (about six miles). Say the maghrib (sunset) prayers when he who is fasting ends the fast and the pilgrim rushes (from `Arafat) to Mina. Say the `isha' (night) prayers with them when twilight disappears and upto one third of the night. Say the (early) morning prayers with them when a man can recognize the face of his companion. Say the prayers with the people as the weakest of them would do and do not be a source of trouble to night prayers.
End of quote

Now denay this or say Shias made up this

[Admin]

Yes we did pray 5 times a day up to the time our prayers were set to 3 times a day a per the order of the Prophet to be the children of our time under the command of Hazrat Ali. We are still listening to what Hazrat Ali tells us in his Farman even today.

The rest of the Muslim world who is not following the order of the Prophet to become the children of their time is still struggling in the world of camels and donkeys when we, the lovers of Ahl e Bait, are already in the space age.

[fayaz006]

Ritual of Salat was taught to Prophet by Gebrael and prophet taught to his followers we call them Sahabas.
This method of praying was taught from generation to generation. I was taught to pray by somebody who learned from his grandpa. Fortunately all the people in that tariqa prayed same way, same times and same number of fird, sunna, Nafals etc etc.
Prophet SAW said
"Pray as you have seen me praying" (Shahih so Bukhari vol 1 hadih 604)

If you do not believe this then do you believe Hz Ali actually wrote letters to commander when to pray 5 prayers
I will quote it below

Quote:
Nahajul Balaga Letter 52: Ali's letter to the Governors of various places concerning prayers

Now, say the zuhr (noon) prayers with the people when the shade of the wall of the goats' pen is equal to the wall. Say the `asr (afternoon) prayers with them when the sun is still shining in a portion of the day enough for covering the distance of two farsakhs (about six miles). Say the maghrib (sunset) prayers when he who is fasting ends the fast and the pilgrim rushes (from `Arafat) to Mina. Say the `isha' (night) prayers with them when twilight disappears and upto one third of the night. Say the (early) morning prayers with them when a man can recognize the face of his companion. Say the prayers with the people as the weakest of them would do and do not be a source of trouble to night prayers.


End of quote

Now denay this or say Shias made up this

I don't believe you have answered my question. Are you saying to me that the only proof you have about the manner in which the prophet prayed came from the writings of somebody that lived 200 odd years after the prophet died. Also Sunnis from a different Tariqa in Indonesia have subtle differences in the way they perform their salat than hanafis from Pakistan and so on and so on. Knowing this fact can you please enlighten me on which Sunni Tariqa has the tradition of the prophet just right? Since the other Tariqa would obviously be out of luck as per you line of reasoning. You did mention in your post that method of prayer has not changed in a "Tariqa" since the time of the prophet. I would love to know which Tariqa that is.

[zznoor]

To Fayaz
We can go on posting and will not come to the end of discussion about prayers.
It is matter of faith and person who can read and understand makes best affort to ascertain facts based on knowledgable scholar

I personally follow this

The Prophet's Prayer (saws)

From The beginning To The End As Though You See It

By: Shaikh Muhammad Naasir-ud-Deen Al-Albaani


You can google it. There is pdf on net

[zznoor]

Faiaz

Did Muslim not pray Salat till hadiths were written.
In Mecca and Madins prayers were held every da continuously till today.

Except when flood.

Slight differences in modes of prayer that exist between Shi'as and Sunnis(and also within Shi'a and Sunni groupings themselves). The fact is that almost all, if not all, Muslim groups pray according to the traditions of the Prophet. Their different modes of prayer all contain the elements of the prayer fixed in the Holy Qur`an and Hadith: qayam, recitation of the Qur`an, bowing, prostrating, praises of God and declaration of His unity, blessings of the Prophet (durud). They differ only in regard to matters that Allah and His messenger have not fixed but in which the Prophet himself followed different ways, e.g. in regard to the question of what exactly to say in different positions of the prayer, whether to raise one's hands at every change of position (rafa' yadayn) etc. It is not at all necessary to stick to one fixed method of prayer throughout one's life, since the Prophet himself did not rigidly follow a single fixed method. In praying behind an imam who follows a method different from that which we have been taught by our parents, we can either follow our usual method or follow the imam(prayer leader)'s way.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Based on early posting of Ms Astagafurallah/Touba and understanding from that.An entity was demonstrated/showed/taught on how to offer prayers physically by an angel appearing as human being.
This is a known historical fact.
I have two simple common sense questions to all members with sound mind and more so from our Ms A/T.

1. If a servant of a rich landlord can afford to buy a bicycle.Can the rich landlord himself also afford to buy a bicycle ??
YES or NO.

2.If Ali+lah=Allah can make and appear his Angel as a Human being.Can Ali+lah=Allah make himself also appear as a Human being?
YES or NO.
Please do answer as no rocket science is needed only common sense.
Faith can be million miles away.