SHAMS TABRIZ - Life, divan and other works

[kmaherali]

Are you differenciating between Ismaili and Imam? In other words, are you suggesting that Imam is not Ismaili?

Constitutionally the murid is not an Imam. Below are statements from the constitution.

(D) The authority of the Imam in the Ismaili Tariqah is testified by Bay'ah by the murid to the Imam which is the act of acceptance by the murid of the permanent spiritual bond between the Imam and the murid. This allegiance unites all Ismaili Muslims worldwide in their loyalty, devotion and obedience to the Imam within the Islamic concept of universal brotherhood. It is distinct from the allegiance of the individual murid to his land of abode,

(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.

Article Two TITLE, DEFINITIONS AND INTERPRETATION

"Ismailis" or "Ismaili Muslims" or "Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims"

The murids of Mawlana Hazar Imam.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html

Second, please quote the exact passage of what MSMS said. Did he say exactly this: "a murid of an Ismaili not the Imam"
or the underlined is your insertion?

"Rumi was not an Ismaili himself, but the murid of an Ismaili"
Sultan Muhammad Shah, First Ismailia Mission Conference, Dar es-Salam 20 July 1945

Mowlana Rumi does expalin the status of the Pir very well in his Mathnavi. However he does not mention the continuity of Imamat directly although he does mention the need to cling to the Pir for salvation.

MSMS has acknowledged that Rumi did attain Fanna fi Allah, so his knowledge was Marifati and hence we are encouraged to read his Mathnavi.

From the batini point of view he would be equivalent to being an Ismaili given his spiritual status but from the zaheri point of view he is not regarded as an Ismaili.

[kmaherali]

BTW, you need to make a correction about the link you provided to the Qasida. The author of the qasida "Ta surat-e paiwand-e Jahan..." is not Shams Tabriz, but it's Rumi.

Since you know Persian can you provide a translation, if not of the entire poem just the phrase "Ali bud" , thanks.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

I knocked on heart’s door, for heart I crave
Came, "who knocks?" I said, "heart’s slave!"
The bright beams of love shone through the door’s crack
Upon the passers by, and lit up that deep black
Wave upon wave of lovely beams, my heart was over-run
Compared to this bright light, were pale the moon and sun.
If the mind takes command, heart enslavement will demand
Will put a leash on mind and all, and hold the end in its hand.
This excitement in the world, serves only to agitate
And break loose every chain, for this joyous heartful state.
His body brings forth light, enthroned upon the seat of might
Soul at its door sits in delight, and reads much in that sight.
He is not a mendicant, who speaks little yet says much
Reflect upon reflections, see all that is while "nothing" watch.
All who have tasted this wine, are compelled to walk this line
Every one of stars nine, with heart’s design themselves align.
From Tabriz one such as Shams, arrives for seekers of divine
Nurtures in love’s vineyard, gardener of thy soul’s vine.

[tret]

Constitutionally the murid is not an Imam. Below are statements from the constitution.

I think you may have misunderstood this. Let me try again.

Are you differentiating between Ismaili and The Imam?

In other words, is our Imam Ismaili or not?

So, your reference to Constitution is irrelevant.

"Rumi was not an Ismaili himself, but the murid of an Ismaili"

So, MSMS didn't actually say "Not Imam"! it was simply your understanding...

From the batini point of view he would be equivalent to being an Ismaili given his spiritual status but from the zaheri point of view he is not regarded as an Ismaili.

I agree with this.

If we truly think about it, Ismaili is The True Path [I think everyone here, especially Ismailis would agree], then any one who follow "The True Path", such as Rumi, Hafiz, Bastami, etc... could be regarded as Ismaili, at the batini level. At the zahiri level, being an Ismaili is simply an identity.

[kmaherali]

Are you differentiating between Ismaili and The Imam?

In other words, is our Imam Ismaili or not?

So, your reference to Constitution is irrelevant..

The Imam is NOT an Ismaili. He is already PURE and PERFECT. He does not have to do Ibadat to elevate his soul. He does not have to attend JK to perform all the rituals such as Dua Karavi. He does not have to follow the Farmans. There is a distiction between a murid and a mursheed.

He calls himself a Muslim and not and Ismaili Muslim.

The reference to the constitution is aboslutely relevant. MHI in his Farman has said: "What I am seeking, therefore, from the leaders of the Jamat in Pakistan and in the Northern Areas, is that you make this new Constitution and the rules and regulations that go with it, your means of leadership, of governance, of direction to the Jamat so that this Constitution, this new Constitution becomes an enabling document."

It is a means of direction to the JK, hence extremely important in the way we understand our role in the Jamat and also how the others perceive us. So you cannot define Imamat which contradicts the constitution.

So, MSMS didn't actually say "Not Imam"! it was simply your understanding...

As per my interpretation and understanding of the constitution.

At the zahiri level, being an Ismaili is simply an identity.

It is not just an identity. It means that a person has done Bayah of the Imam and is bound by the constitution. Rumi, Mansoor, Hafiz whom the Imam has mentioned as having become one with Allah are special cases. We cannot regard all Sufis as such although we do share the same principles with them.

I think the Rumi factor also tells us that the Imam recognises other Sufi Tariqahs as avenues of spiritual enlightenment. Ours is not the only path. The Imam cannot physically be a Mursheed for everyone who may seek that.

[ismaili103]

In other words, is our Imam Ismaili or not?

Imam can never be a Ismaili, Pir said in his Ginan that " I am also a satpnthi" Or Follower of Sirat ul Mustaqeem AKA Ismaili. And Pirs always said that Imam is Shah, King, Mursheed etc.

When Imam Aga Alisha was Pir he use to do Ibadat at midnight in the fountain outside his home. But when he became Imam he stops doing Ibadat. So you can understand that Imam is not bound in rituals and rites in which we Ismailis are bound, Imam is Beyond these things.

[dawlatshahchitrali]

BTW, you need to make a correction about the link you provided to the Qasida. The author of the qasida "Ta surat-e paiwand-e Jahan..." is not Shams Tabriz, but it's Rumi.

Since you know Persian can you provide a translation, if not of the entire poem just the phrase "Ali bud" , thanks.

Translation by Mazhar Shah:


Ta Surat-o piwand-i jahan bud Ali bud
Ta naqsh-i zamin bud zaman bud Ali bud

Before the form of universe was grafted, there was Ali
When map of world and time was grafted, since that time there was Ali.

Shahi ke wali budo wasi bud Ali bud
Sultan-i sakha-o karam-o jud Ali bud

Shah who was wasi and wali of Prophet was Ali
The king who rewarded, and known for generosity was Ali

Ham Adam-o ham Shish-o ham Idris-o ham Ayub
Ham Yusuf-o ham Yunus-o ham Hud Ali bud

Since time of (prophets) Adam, Sheth, Idris, Ayyub
Yusuf, yunus and Hud there was Ali

Ham Musa-o ham Issa-o ham Khizr-o ham Ilyas
Ham Salihe Paygambar-o Daud Ali bud

Musa, Issa, Khizar, and Iliyas
Priphet Soleh, and Daud, there was Ali

An Lahma lahmi bishinau ta ke bidani
An yarr ke-o nafs-i nabi bud Ali bud

Listen to Hadith "lahmaka lahami" ( your body is my body ) so that you know
That helper, friend and Nafs of Prophet was Ali

Chandanke nazar kardam-o didam ba haqiqat
Az ru-i yaqin barhama mawjud Ali bud

Wherer ever I looked saw that haqiqat clearly
The authority on every thing was Ali

Khatam ke dar angushat-i Sulimane nabi bud
An Nur-i Khudai ke bar-o bud Ali bud

The ring that was in the finger of prophet Sulaiman Nabi
Was emmiting noor of God, that (noor) was Ali

An shah-i sarafraz ke andar shab-i mi’raj
Ba Ahmad-i Mukhtar yaki bud Ali bud

That honorable Shah who was with Prophet in night of Ma'raj
Was one with Ahmad e Mukhtar, that was Ali

Sere do Jahan jumla zi paidaw-o zi pinhan
Shamsul-Haqi tabreez qui binmood Ali bud

The revealer of secrets of both worlds zahir wa batin
To Shamsul Haqq Tabriz was not other than Ali

Ta Surat-o piwand-i jahan bud Ali bud
Ta naqsh-i zamin bud zaman bud Ali bud

Before the form of universe was grafted there was Ali
When map of world and time was grafted, since that time there was Ali

[dawlatshahchitrali]

Are you differentiating between Ismaili and The Imam?

In other words, is our Imam Ismaili or not?

So, your reference to Constitution is irrelevant..

The Imam is NOT an Ismaili. He is already PURE and PERFECT. He does not have to do Ibadat to elevate his soul. He does not have to attend JK to perform all the rituals such as Dua Karavi. He does not have to follow the Farmans. There is a distiction between a murid and a mursheed.

He calls himself a Muslim and not and Ismaili Muslim.


According to genealogy, Hazar Imam is an Ismaili in a sense because he is direct descendant of Imam Ismail bin Imam ja'far Sadiq and through Mowla Ali and Prophet Muhamad is descendant of Prophet Ismail bin Prophet Ibrahim.

[nuseri]

To a five header:Ya Ali madad.
You get 10 out 10 for posting the truth.
Sufism is expression of love,imaan and submission and not copy paste of dead era.
If such beautiful qasida is recited it has equal essence as in Dua.
A teacher would love to listen to poem from imagination of the students and not only from book which teacher teaches them.
A.)why did tret use the word 'INFAMOUS'.
B) what does word Bud means?
3) Is there a remote trace of the word Allah in it?
Imam SMS has said (please correct me).that masnavi is like Quran in Persian language.
So if dua is submission with word from holy book ,so are recitation of ginan n qasidas.
Is is true one can didar of ALI from other persons,it can be a Pir,mukhis or a person next to you in JK WHEN you look into their eyes and desire SHAH JO DIDAR.
just believe in this qasida and farmans of Imam of Ali,jafeer sadiq,ALI shah Datar,SMS when they directly or indirectly hinted who they are.
Recently Mhi with the word, SPIRITUAL FATHER,
THERE is no point in looking from level 2 to 1&0 when upto level 7 is open for all.
This is Noor of ALI speaking out of body of Rumi in same way it spoke out of an entity.

[kmaherali]

According to genealogy, Hazar Imam is an Ismaili in a sense because he is direct descendant of Imam Ismail bin Imam ja'far Sadiq and through Mowla Ali and Prophet Muhamad is descendant of Prophet Ismail bin Prophet Ibrahim.

According to the constitution as I have highlighted above, an Ismaili is a murid and not the Mursheed.

Thanks for the poems and the translation. I cannot comment about its accuracy due to lack of knowledge of Persian, however the content seems to accord with the real understanding of Sufism. It at least gives an idea as to what the Qasida is about.

[kmaherali]

Just to highlight the difference between Rumi's version of Sufism and Ismailism, below is an anecdote regarding the passing away of Mowlana Rumi.

As he was dying, Mevlana told his disciples, "I have two attachments in the world, one to my body and the other to you. When, by grace, I am taken to the disembodied wholeness, this attachment to you will still exist."

Source: Say I Am You
Poetry Interspersed with Stories of Rumi and Shams

Translated by John Moyne and Coleman Barks

From the above it is clear that he did not appoint his successor as in Ismailism. He continues to have a spiritual bond with his murids.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
It look like the relation of Rumi and Shams Tabriz.It reminds me a line from a Ginan.
NOORE NOOR JAA MEELYA,NOORE THA NOOR SAMAYA.
Is this Ginan of Pir Sadarddin or Syeda Imam Begum.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
I get swayed by the Qasida DUM HUME DUM ALI ALI.
The pirantan usually come from a genetics of heaven.
I wish the members to post lines of Ginans matching or akin in essence to this line.
One I recollect is EJI ALI BOLO ALI BOLO MUNIWAR BHAYEE.
I am looking forward to participation of Agakhani & shamsB.Our wise member may hold his posting for a while.

[kmaherali]

There are many. In the Search Ginan texts of this site at: http://ismaili.net/heritage/ginan_view? ... D&filter3=

Type the words hardam , zikr, piyu piyu, dhyan (one at a time) in the text box and then hit the search button.

[tret]

He does not have to do Ibadat to elevate his soul. He does not have to attend JK to perform all the rituals such as Dua Karavi. He does not have to follow the Farmans. There is a distiction between a murid and a mursheed.

An ismaili can not do all these things either, but still can identify himself as ismaili, not a good one, but still. The question is really not murid is murshid.

Being a [Nizari] Ismaili is to affirm the leaniage of the Imamate from Imam Ismaili and Imam Nizar. More so, Ismaili is a tradition, a way of life a belief system. I am sure MHI adhere to all that and is the Imam of all Nizari Ismailis.

You can not use the same argument to the Prophet either and say Prophet was not a Muslim, because being a Muslim is to affirm the oneness of God and all his Messangers and Mohammad being the final Prophet.

Your position is like selling the product but not believe in it?

He calls himself a Muslim and not and Ismaili Muslim.

So does the rest of the ummah, calls themselve muslim. Are you equating the Imam as the rest of the ummah? I really hope you pay attention to that, and seriously don't mean it.

The Imam cannot physically be a Mursheed for everyone who may seek that.

Sure HE can! it's up to the individual to seek. In the case of Nasir Khusraw, Tusi, Hassan Sabah, and many many others over the history, they were not born as Imsaili; however, they sought the truth. Similarly, today, if the entire world were to give Bay'ha to the Imam, what stops MHI to be their Murshid? Besides, Bay'ha of the Imam is not physical bond, but a spiritual one. I mean did you gave your bay'ha physical to the Imam of the time?

I cannot comment about its accuracy due to lack of knowledge of Persian

... you ask others to provide a translation, and then you say you can't confirm its accuracy? lol ...

From the above it is clear that he did not appoint his successor as in Ismailism. He continues to have a spiritual bond with his murids.

I really don't understand your point. I mean why would Rumi appoint a successor? Is it something that I am not aware of, that an Ismaili can appoint a successor [other than the Imam, of course]?

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.

1.)You posted a extract from an Alwaez in which he explains the relationship and establish a blood relation of Shams Tabriz hinting him to a part of Able Bayt from the reading at face value.
2).n next posting you of conference no close relationship of Imam and Shama Tabriz is said as per minutes of the conference recorded by maybe third person .
My question is the book of an Alwaez recognized by any Imam or even recommended by
IIS ?
The statement of the Alwaez and Imam contradict it totally.
I assume the same book may have mentioned 21/2 hour farman time of Imam SMS.

[kmaherali]

An ismaili can not do all these things either, but still can identify himself as ismaili, not a good one, but still. The question is really not murid is murshid.

What is the question? It is clear that the Mursheed does not have to perform Ibadat.

Being a [Nizari] Ismaili is to affirm the leaniage of the Imamate from Imam Ismaili and Imam Nizar. More so, Ismaili is a tradition, a way of life a belief system. I am sure MHI adhere to all that and is the Imam of all Nizari Ismailis.

That is your understanding. Not according to the constitution signed by the Imam.

You can not use the same argument to the Prophet either and say Prophet was not a Muslim, because being a Muslim is to affirm the oneness of God and all his Messangers and Mohammad being the final Prophet.]?

The argument does not apply to the Prophet. A Muslim is the one who affirms the Shahada and the Prophet did!

Your position is like selling the product but not believe in it?]?

I am selling the product that the Imam is not an Ismaili and I believe that as well.

So does the rest of the ummah, calls themselve muslim. Are you equating the Imam as the rest of the ummah? I really hope you pay attention to that, and seriously don't mean it.?]?

Yes he is a Muslim like the rest of other Muslims. Have you heard or read a Irshad Mubarak? He states in one of them: "Bismillah-Al-Rahman-Al-Rahim

My Beloved Spiritual Children, my brothers and sisters in Islam and other faiths Assalam-0-Alaikum"

Hence he is equal to other Muslims and he is the Spiritual Father/Mother to his murids.

Sure HE can! it's up to the individual to seek. In the case of Nasir Khusraw, Tusi, Hassan Sabah, and many many others over the history, they were not born as Imsaili; however, they sought the truth. Similarly, today, if the entire world were to give Bay'ha to the Imam, what stops MHI to be their Murshid? Besides, Bay'ha of the Imam is not physical bond, but a spiritual one. I mean did you gave your bay'ha physical to the Imam of the time?]?

Are you aware of the process of becoming a murid. How long and painful it can be? I know at least one person who wanted to become a murid and was rejected by the Tariqah Board. The logistics would prevent the entire world to be accepted as murids.

According to the constitution it is the physical ACT of acceptance although the bond itself is spiritual.


(D) The authority of the Imam in the Ismaili Tariqah is testified by Bay'ah by the murid to the Imam which is the act of acceptance by the murid of the permanent spiritual bond between the Imam and the murid. This allegiance unites all Ismaili Muslims worldwide in their loyalty, devotion and obedience to the Imam within the Islamic concept of universal brotherhood. It is distinct from the allegiance of the individual murid to his land of abode,


Yes all murids give their Bayah to the Imam through the Mukhi?Kamadias who are Imams representatives.

I cannot comment about its accuracy due to lack of knowledge of Persian

... you ask others to provide a translation, and then you say you can't confirm its accuracy? lol ... ]?

If I ask someone for a translation, it does not mean that the translation provided would be accurate! My mentioning that I cannot comment about the accuracy was to elicit the comment from others like you who are supposed to know Persian. Apparently it seems you do not know it well enough to comment about the accuracy of the translation!

I really don't understand your point. I mean why would Rumi appoint a successor? Is it something that I am not aware of, that an Ismaili can appoint a successor [other than the Imam, of course]?

Rumi would appoint a successor if he wanted his institution to be permanent, but he did not which points to the difference between our tariqah and his and that fact I was trying to underline.

[kmaherali]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.

My question is the book of an Alwaez recognized by any Imam or even recommended by
IIS ?
The statement of the Alwaez and Imam contradict it totally.
I assume the same book may have mentioned 21/2 hour farman time of Imam SMS.

Your question is ambiguous. Please elaborate. Which book and which Alwaez?

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.
See your post no 11689 dated 28 December.
You wrote' alwaez Abuali in his book'
Most members reading from non entity are blinkered.
From where was the data that Imam SMS spoke for two n half hours.(this must have been written n said somewhere)
I assumed many many false words could be in that book.
Please read n UNDERSTAND what extracts you are copy pasting.

[kmaherali]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.
See your post no 11689 dated 28 December.
You wrote' alwaez Abuali in his book'
Most members reading from non entity are blinkered.
From where was the data that Imam SMS spoke for two n half hours.(this must have been written n said somewhere)
I assumed many many false words could be in that book.
Please read n UNDERSTAND what extracts you are copy pasting.

You are confused about who said what. I never mentioned about two and half hours. Admin mentioned it.

If you have a question about a particular post, go to the post and use the 'quote' button. In that way there is clarity about what you are asking.

[nuseri]

To kmaherali: Ya Ali Madad.
You very well know your post.I have never copy pasted previous posts in Toto.
Forget IMAM SMS farman duration at takth nashini.
What you posted crap was on Shams tabriz as written by Abuali.
How come you posted that crap before the Imam SMS conference statement.( if you had both the data.It implies mischief. I cannot use uncivil words.
What is the authencity of that statement.?
You repost that ,I answer ,do you believe n follow like someone An ordinary Alwaez or IMAM.I precisely use the word blinkered searching for darkness inspire of light around us.

[kmaherali]

How come you posted that crap before the ImamSMS conference statement.( if you had both the data.It implies mischief. I cannot use uncivil words.
What is the authencity of that statement.?
You repost that ,I answer ,do you believe n follow like someone An ordinary Alwaez or IMAM.I precisely use the word blinkered searching for darkness inspire of light around us.

How does Abually's statement contradict the Imams statement.

Abually said that Shams Tabriz was not Imam Shamshuddin Mohammed.

MSMS said that Rumi was the murid of an Ismaili.

Do where is the contradiction?

[kmaherali]

Do where is the contradiction?

I cannot edit my post. It is: So where is the contradiction?

MSMS said that Shams Tabriz was an Ismaili and not an Imam. That is what Abually said!

[Admin]

Admin, can you elaborate on this post, so that I can understand him? Thanks

Honestly, like most of Nuseiri's post, this one is also not well articulated. That happens usually when the person post for the sake of posting without really knowing why he is posting and what he wants to express aprt from his ignorance on the subject.

I urge you to just ignore him. That is the only appropriate response.

I do remove offensive and inappropriate posts but sometime unfortunately a war starts before I read the post.

[nuseri]

To kamarali: ya ALI madad.
You wroyr
.'..Shams Tabriz was the son of Ima'm Ala'uddi'n Mohammed and the brother of Ima'm Ruknuddi'n Khorshah ,.
Can you expend it,does not son and brother relation imply n establish blood relations.
It even further open to him to a possible part of Able Bayt.

No such relation was mentioned by Imam SMS.
He mentioned a mursid.
You have both the info,then why you used an akwaez extract over and before Imam statement relating to Imam.
If there was an close relation IMAM always speak truth and have said tabrizi relation to Imams family then.

[kmaherali]

To kamarali: ya ALI madad.
You wroyr
.'..Shams Tabriz was the son of Ima'm Ala'uddi'n Mohammed and the brother of Ima'm Ruknuddi'n Khorshah ,.
Can you expend it,does not son and brother relation imply n establish blood relations.
It even further open to him to a possible part of Able Bayt..

Agreed, he was the son and a brother of the Imam. He was therefore Ahl al- Bayt.

No such relation was mentioned by Imam SMS.
He mentioned a mursid.
You have both the info,then why you used an akwaez extract over and before Imam statement relating to Imam.
If there was an close relation IMAM always speak truth and have said tabrizi relation to Imams family then.

MSMS did not say he was Murshid. He said that he was an Ismaili. If he was an Ismaili, he was not the Imam.

[kmaherali]

Agreed, he was the son and a brother of the Imam. He was therefore Ahl al- Bayt.

I meant he was a son of an Imam and a brother of an Imam.

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali madad.
First confirm of Able Bayt Status of Tabirizi and later go in suspense.
1.What was Imam Shamsuddin Mohammed blood relations with two imams name mentioned?
2.IMAM SMS many time like a teacher clarifies certain queries posted to him.
He would have said the truth that Tabrizi was a part of Able Bayt?
3.What is authenticity and credibility of Abuali research and his sources?
4.being a scholar of past yourself. You had both statement of Imam and Abuali.
Why did you not posted Imams word (if any) before Abuali's data ?
5.Is the book of Abuali recognized by any Imams or recommend by IIS? Why not ?
Please answer each and all by numbers in sequence.

[kmaherali]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali madad.
First confirm of Able Bayt Status of Tabirizi and later go in suspense..

Already confirmed! see my last two posts.

1.What was Imam Shamsuddin Mohammed blood relations with two imams name mentioned?.

Of course - son and grandson.

2.IMAM SMS many time like a teacher clarifies certain queries posted to him.
He would have said the truth that Tabrizi was a part of Able Bayt?

He said that he was an Ismaili. An Ismaili is also Ahl al- Bayt. The Imam chose not to say he was Ahl al-Bayt, so what?

3.What is authenticity and credibility of Abuali research and his sources?.

Abually had been involved in waezin and other research activities for decades. He was personally advised by MSMS to become a missionary. Do you think he would betray the Imam by spreading lies and do you think the Jamats and the institutions would not find out if he had spread lies? MSMS had commissioned Alwaez Chunara to compile the history and he wrote the Nurun Mubin. Abually has drawn quite a lot from it to write his book.

4.being a scholar of past yourself. You had both statement of Imam and Abuali.
Why did you not posted Imams word (if any) before Abuali's data ?.

As I mentioned before, I did not see any contradiction between what Abually said and what the Imam said.

5.Is the book of Abuali recognized by any Imams or recommend by IIS? Why not ?
Please answer each and all by numbers in sequence.

When Abually wrote his book, the IIS did not exist. But he published the book under the Ismailia Association of Tanzania. Hence it had the official recognition.

[kmaherali]

An Ismaili is also Ahl al- Bayt.

Sorry I meant an Ahl al-Bayt is also an Ismaili.