Changes in the Ginans

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.

[Admin]

There is no such thing as "imam of the Medieval times" We only have an Imam-e-Zaman. Hazar Imam has said Farmans of the past Imams are his Farmans and he is the Imam of the Time.

So to be Farman-bardari, contrary to some, we are going to save the manuscripts in order to preserve the Ginans and other information for generations yet to be born. And we are going to help recreate history from digging deeper into those manuscripts because our history and documents have been destroyed, sometimes on purpose.

[agakhani]

There is a farman of current MHI which was made in Karachi , in that farmans MHI has insisted and emphasized importance of manuscripts and original texts and encouraged more and more students to join in study its original texts and original manuscripts from Gujarati, Urdu, Persian and Arabic languages not only for ginans but on every things. (Not exact wording) upon request detail about this farman will be provided.

[kmaherali]

Ya Ali madad:
I have not asked i.e money on how much million dollars one wish to have but is reality of one has.
My specific questions is what is each one of you indivual capaity of knowing ginan by heart n able to recite without any help.( like dua/tasbih).
Number in specific.
It seem most haqiqati members wishes to undermine n dis regard ibaadat,khidmat n aashique to move toward as a marfati momin where words are limited but actions are aloud.
They only wish to dig and relish based on their cleverness and comfort zone
to dig deep n drown into data of 1400/1000/700 years old data n manuscript.
If one wishes to live n die as haqiqati scholars( zahir category),It is their wish.I assume they value farman of living Imam less than the data telling about Imam from medivial ages.
may God bless your efforts.

There is no need to learn the Ginans by heart to understand and contemplate on them. We can get the essential wisdom by reading and reflecting upon them. Reciting like a parrot does not lead to understanding.

Benefitting from the wisdom and knowledge of the Ginans does not undermine obedience to the present Farmans, ibadat and khidmat. On the contrary it inspires more khidmat and ibadat.

There is no question about valuing less the current Farmans. Infact the current Farmans encourage us to learn the Ginans.

There is much to learn from the past. Think about it. How could the people who lived thousands of years before build a pyramid? Do you think they were primitive? Or were they more advanced than us? Shouldn't we learn from them?

[agakhani]

Admin,
Or any one know more on changing in ginans,

I read all reports along with Appendix I and II with keen interest .
I would like to know what action Nairobi Asociation has been taken after presenting report by Ismailia Association for Canada?
Did this report forwarded to MHI? if yes! then any action had been taken by imam?
Are those inappropriately changed ginans are still recited in Pakistan?
Did any sister Association besides Pakistan make changes according Paris conference?
As a die hard ginanic fans I will appreciate if any one can gives me more idetails on my above questions.

[Admin]

As you may know, Ismailis in pakistan still recites changes in the ginans and as they settle elsewhere they take with them the legacy of Kassamali which was based on fear of the "Muslims" who would attack us if we would have any Hindi words left in out literature.

however Imam knows in his immense wisdom hat sanity will come back in our thinking some days and that is why he has asked us to preserve that ginans for generations "yet to be born".

As of the Farman that it was the responsibility of the Ismailia Association to teach the ginans, they have failed miserably.

[nuseri]

To Agakhani: Ya Ali Madad.

It is good to hear that you are a die hard fan of Ginans.
It would be better as I would wish for you
To be a die hard lover of 'ALI'.
and an ardent admirer of Ginans.
Why just be a reader raise yourself to be
as good as a composer of Ginans?
remember Imam SMS farmans.

[Admin]

Any "die hard" lover of Ginan has no option but to be "die hard" lover of Ali because the whole of the Ginanic corpus point to the love of Ali.

[agakhani]

Any "die hard" lover of Ginan has no option but to be "die hard" lover of Ali because the whole of the Ginanic corpus point to the love of Ali.

Thanks Admin,

For answering the exactly my thoughts which first came in my mind after reading Nuseri's above post!!.

Nuseri,

Yes, I have love towards Ali which I can not measure it! because there is no measurement found yet to show it

[ShamsB]

This is for my friend Nuseri - and others who somehow have gotten it into their heads that because they proclaim what they proclaim - everyone else is wrong.

Story by Leo Tolstoy.

Three men became very famous saints in Russia.
The highest priest of the country was very much disturbed — obviously, because people were not coming to him, people were going to those three saints, and he had not even heard their names. And how could they be saints? — because in Christianity a saint is a saint only when the church recognizes him as a saint. The English word ‘saint’ comes from ‘sanction'; when the church sanctions somebody as a saint, then he is a saint. What nonsense! that a saint has to be certified by the church, by the organized religion, by the priests — as if it has nothing to do with inner growth but some outer recognition; as if it is a title given by a government, or a degree, an honorary degree, conferred by a university.
The high priest was certainly very angry. He took a boat because those three saints used to live on the far side of a lake. He went in the boat. Those three saints were sitting under a tree. They were very simple people, peasants, uneducated. They touched the feet of the highest priest, and the priest was very happy. He thought, “Now I will put them right — these are not very dangerous people. I was thinking they would be rebels or something.” He asked them, “How did you become saints?”
They said, “We don’t know! We don’t know that we are saints either. People have started calling us saints and we go on trying to convince them that we are not, we are very simple people, but they don’t listen. The more we argue that we are not, the more they worship us! And we are not very good at arguing either.”
The priest was very happy. He said, “What is your prayer? Do you know how to pray?”
They looked at each other. The first said to the second, “You say.” The second said to the third, “You say, please.”
The priest said, “Say what your prayer is! Are you saying Our Lord’s Prayer or not?”
They said, “To be frank with you, we don’t know any prayer. We have invented a prayer of our own and we are very embarrassed — how to say it? But if you ask we have to say it. We have heard that God is a trinity: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. We are three and he is also three, so we have made a small prayer of our own: ‘You are three, we are three: Have mercy on us!’ ”
The priest said, “What nonsense! Is this prayer? You fools, I will teach you the right prayer.” And he recited The Lord’s Prayer.
And those three poor people said, “Please repeat it once more, because we are uneducated, we may forget.”
He repeated it and they asked, “Once more — we are three, repeat it at least three times.” So he repeated it again, and then very happy, satisfied, he went back in his boat.
Just in the middle of the lake he was surprised, his boatman was surprised: those three poor people were coming running on the water! And they said, “Wait! Please one more time — we have forgotten the prayer!”
Now it was the turn of the priest to touch their feet, and he said, “Forget what I have said to you. Your prayer has been heard, my prayer has not been heard yet. You continue as you are continuing. I was utterly wrong to say anything to you. Forgive me!”


Moral: Many many ways to the truth - just because you've stumbled upon a small fraction - don't assume it to be the only version - and everyone else to be wrong.

Shams

[nuseri]

To ShamsB;Ya Ali Madad.

Where were you ?
I replied and the whole post got deleted.
A saying of Albert Einstein.

'true intelligence is imagination
and not knowledge'

Why he said that?

[agakhani]

Guys,
I have stories of great Socrates, Plato, confuseus, homar and even Hitler, Mussolini , are you interested in those stories?!

For me pir Shams, pir Sadardin, pir Hasan Kabirdin"s phylosophy as described in ginans are more important then those philosophers!

The Bottom line is you can find all those philosopher" s philosophy and their philosophical thoughts in ginans. period Nuseri why don't you try that?

That Albert Eisenstein is in hell for inventing Atomic Bomb! Any question? Hitler had his own philosophy to kill innocent peoples and he did it USING GAS CHAMBERS! and killed thousands and thousand Nazis!

SOCRATES HAD TO KILLED HIMSELF! drinking poision, because his philosophy was hard to digest at his time! Galileo was considered as a lunatic person! because peoples of his time can not understand his thinking! Mansoor Al-Hallaz was hanged because he considered him shelf as God!!
Whom I write here and whom not?! but one thing is true that! they were not 100% God gifted persons they had some kind weaknesses as well, in contrast our pirs were 100% God gifted persons who had Ruhani powers ! So, start reading ginans and try to understand Pirs philosophies and that is the bottom line for everybody.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
It is interesting to know that ShamsB has called me as a friend another as a guy
and not as a brother in faith. God bless you'll.

It seem Agakhani is going ballistic with fancy word like bombs,missiles,private parts,etc
and shelling out his email add n fone numbers to meet n have fun with him.
I assume you n kmaherali read the same ginans.
As per one of your past post you said Allah is formless and just few month back kamaherali put the extract of ginan in which it says allah is formed of axz elements.

I feel a person would be more blessed in' understanding' even one spiritually rich ginan than just reading few hundreds of them as get the basics wrong.
One can assume if basic is wrong all that follows n build upon it also goes
wrong n it can also come crumbling down.
The farman was to UNDERSTAND the truth in Ginans,if that would have been there Imam would would have make farmans on those subjects.somebody interpreted that that ginans= farmans.

As you have gone ballistic you are mixing up(toxic) in reading and understanding.Mixing up the word 'noor' n 'bearer of noor' can even get a well read haqiqati on back foot by a cunning debater.

[kmaherali]

As per one of your past post you said Allah is formless and just few month back kamaherali put the extract of ginan in which it says allah is formed of axz elements.

I don't recall having made a statement like that. Please provide the exact reference. It is not too difficult for someone familiar with this website to get this information.

What I might have said is that Allah manifests himself in various material forms to fulfil certain tasks and roles.

[agakhani]

Nuseri,

It was no intention to insult you or bro ShamsB using the word Guys! Shams is a great Khidmatgar.

[Admin]

I would also like that the tradition and the meaning of the Ginans should be maintained. And when I hear a young spiritual daughter, such as this young girl, who recited a beautiful Ginan to our Jamat today, it makes Me very happy, and very proud.

Vancouver, Canada 14 November 1978

[kmaherali]

Example of how a work of art can be distorted by changing the language or expression...

Shakespeare in Modern English?

THE Oregon Shakespeare Festival has decided that Shakespeare’s language is too difficult for today’s audiences to understand. It recently announced that over the next three years, it will commission 36 playwrights to translate all of Shakespeare’s plays into modern English.

Many in the theater community have known that this day was coming, though it doesn’t lessen the shock. The Oregon Shakespeare Festival has been one of the stars in the Shakespeare firmament since it was founded in 1935. While the festival’s organizers insist that they also remain committed to staging Shakespeare’s works in his own words, they have set a disturbing precedent. Other venues, including the Alabama Shakespeare Festival, the University of Utah and Orlando Shakespeare Theater, have already signed on to produce some of these translations.

However well intended, this experiment is likely to be a waste of money and talent, for it misdiagnoses the reason that Shakespeare’s plays can be hard for playgoers to follow. The problem is not the often knotty language; it’s that even the best directors and actors — British as well as American — too frequently offer up Shakespeare’s plays without themselves having a firm enough grasp of what his words mean.

Claims that Shakespeare’s language is unintelligible go back to his own day. His great rival, Ben Jonson, reportedly complained about “some bombast speeches of ‘Macbeth,’ which are not to be understood.” Jonson failed to see that Macbeth’s dense soliloquies were intentionally difficult; Shakespeare was capturing a feverish mind at work, tracing the turbulent arc of a character’s moral crisis. Even if audiences strain to understand exactly what Macbeth says, they grasp what Macbeth feels — but only if an actor knows what that character’s words mean.

Two years ago I witnessed a different kind of theatrical experiment, in which Shakespeare’s “Much Ado About Nothing,” in the original language, trimmed to 90 minutes, was performed before an audience largely unfamiliar with Shakespeare: inmates at Rikers Island. The performance was part of the Public Theater’s Mobile Shakespeare Unit initiative.

No inmates walked out on the performance, though they were free to do so. They were deeply engrossed, many at the edge of their seats, some crying out at various moments (much as Elizabethan audiences once did) and visibly moved by what they saw.

Did they understand every word? I doubt it. I’m not sure anybody other than Shakespeare, who invented quite a few words, ever has. But the inmates, like any other audience witnessing a good production, didn’t have to follow the play line for line, because the actors, and their director, knew what the words meant; they found in Shakespeare’s language the clues to the personalities of the characters.

I’ve had a chance to look over a prototype translation of “Timon of Athens” that the Oregon Shakespeare Festival has been sharing at workshops and readings for the past five years. While the work of an accomplished playwright, it is a hodgepodge, neither Elizabethan nor contemporary, and makes for dismal reading.

To understand Shakespeare’s characters, actors have long depended on the hints of meaning and shadings of emphasis that he embedded in his verse. They will search for them in vain in the translation: The music and rhythm of iambic pentameter are gone. Gone, too, are the shifts — which allow actors to register subtle changes in intimacy — between “you” and “thee.” Even classical allusions are scrapped.

Shakespeare’s use of resonance and ambiguity, defining features of his language, is also lost in translation. For example, in Shakespeare’s original, when the misanthropic Timon addresses a pair of prostitutes and rails about how money corrupts every aspect of social relations, he urges them to “plague all, / That your activity may defeat and quell / The source of all erection.” A primary meaning of “erection” for Elizabethans was social advancement or promotion; Timon hates social climbers. The wry sexual meaning of “erection,” also present here, was secondary. But the new translation ignores the social resonance, turning the line into a sordid joke: Timon now speaks of “the source of all erections.”

Shakespeare borrowed almost all his plots and wrote for a theater that required only a handful of props, no scenery and no artificial lighting. The only thing Shakespearean about his plays is the language. I’ll never understand why, when you attend a Shakespeare production these days, you find listed in the program a fight director, a dramaturge, a choreographer and lighting, set and scenery designers — but rarely an expert steeped in Shakespeare’s language and culture.

A technology entrepreneur’s foundation is bankrolling the Oregon Shakespeare Festival’s new venture. I’d prefer to see it spend its money hiring such experts and enabling those 36 promising American playwrights to devote themselves to writing the next Broadway hit like “Hamilton,” rather than waste their time stripping away what’s Shakespearean about “King Lear” or “Hamlet.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/opini ... 87722&_r=0

[shivaathervedi]

Admin



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 4107

PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:18 am Post subject: Reply with quote
shivaathervedi wrote:
changes were made with approval of Hazar Imam


Your lies have already been proven wrong with official documents. Imam never approved any changes. You will not succeed with your agenda of putting into the mouth of Imam whatever suits you. In the past also you have tried to mislead people and it has not been succesful. Don't you learn from your mistakes like other normal people do?

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/31647

Reply:

What ever I wrote on this Forum is adopted from Ismaili printed and published material + Heritage. You people are negating the material printed by Associations and ITREB. THERE IS A RADIO PROGRAM " AAP KI FARMAISH " IN INDIA AND PAKISTAN, so on the aap ki farmaish of few Heritage members who have no courage TO COMPETE ( lately ShamsB asked you ) forced you to LOCK, BLOCK AND DELETE MY POSTS AND THREADS. CHI ABUL JA'EBI AST.
Khoja Ismailis believe Imam knows every thing; Was he not aware that changes were made in Ginans. Or late missionary Kassim Ali (whom you consider NEMESIS) was powerful than Imam and made changes on its own!! In Religious affairs none Ismaili leader dare to make any changes on its own withou order of Imam.
In mostly JKs during recitation I heard the changes in Ginas like;
SWAMI = SHAH
HARI = ALI
JANAT = ZEENAT, AND SO ON.
Changes in Ginans came during time of MSMS. I have been insisting that Farmans and Hidayat of MSMS DURING PERIOD 1950 TO JULY 1957 should be published so that JAMAITS AND YOUTH should come to know the realities. The classified papers are still available in India and Pakistan ITREB.
If our Pirs in Ginans had used the words like ALI AND MUHAMMAD instead of Vishnu, Brahma, Hari and clearly mentioned Islamic tenets then today we have not been discussing these issues.

[kmaherali]

Or late missionary Kassim Ali (whom you consider NEMESIS) was powerful than Imam and made changes on its own!! In Religious affairs none Ismaili leader dare to make any changes on its own withou order of Imam.
In mostly JKs during recitation I heard the changes in Ginas like;
SWAMI = SHAH
HARI = ALI
JANAT = ZEENAT, AND SO ON..

If the Imam intended to make such drastic changes in the Ginans, don't you think he would at the very least inform the Jamat about them? Don't you think that those who have made the changes should at least inform the Jamat about their activities and the hidayats empowering them?

When MSMS appointed Mukhi Lalji Devraj to do the work on Ginans, he informed the Jamat about that.

How come there are no changes in the Ginans published by the ITREB of Canada, if there was any Hidayat?

Changes in Ginans came during time of MSMS. I have been insisting that Farmans and Hidayat of MSMS DURING PERIOD 1950 TO JULY 1957 should be published so that JAMAITS AND YOUTH should come to know the realities. The classified papers are still available in India and Pakistan ITREB.
If our Pirs in Ginans had used the words like ALI AND MUHAMMAD instead of Vishnu, Brahma, Hari and clearly mentioned Islamic tenets then today we have not been discussing these issues.

Since you know the Farmans, can you provide the references - dates and places. I have not come across any Farmans of MSMS about changes in the Ginans.

What is un-Islamic about Vishnu, Brhma and Hari. Please explain.

Do you think our forefathers were not practicing Islam the religion of peace when the Imam has stated: "Only the faith of your forefathers will enable you to live in peace in this world and the next."(Takht Nashini Nairobi).

[shivaathervedi]

Or late missionary Kassim Ali (whom you consider NEMESIS) was powerful than Imam and made changes on its own!! In Religious affairs none Ismaili leader dare to make any changes on its own withou order of Imam.
In mostly JKs during recitation I heard the changes in Ginas like;
SWAMI = SHAH
HARI = ALI
JANAT = ZEENAT, AND SO ON..

If the Imam intended to make such drastic changes in the Ginans, don't you think he would at the very least inform the Jamat about them? Don't you think that those who have made the changes should at least inform the Jamat about their activities and the hidayats empowering them?

When MSMS appointed Mukhi Lalji Devraj to do the work on Ginans, he informed the Jamat about that.

How come there are no changes in the Ginans published by the ITREB of Canada, if there was any Hidayat?

Changes in Ginans came during time of MSMS. I have been insisting that Farmans and Hidayat of MSMS DURING PERIOD 1950 TO JULY 1957 should be published so that JAMAITS AND YOUTH should come to know the realities. The classified papers are still available in India and Pakistan ITREB.
If our Pirs in Ginans had used the words like ALI AND MUHAMMAD instead of Vishnu, Brahma, Hari and clearly mentioned Islamic tenets then today we have not been discussing these issues.

Since you know the Farmans, can you provide the references - dates and places. I have not come across any Farmans of MSMS about changes in the Ginans.

What is un-Islamic about Vishnu, Brhma and Hari. Please explain.

Do you think our forefathers were not practicing Islam the religion of peace when the Imam has stated: "Only the faith of your forefathers will enable you to live in peace in this world and the next."(Takht Nashini Nairobi).

I confirmed it that in late 70s late Alwaiz Bachal, late Alwaiz Noorudin Bukhsh and other missionaries did explained the jamaits about changes. Some times Imam gives Hidayat verbally and do not give in writing, you are aware of this practice of Imam.
There was a Ginan conference in 1969 followed by few Ginan workshops and many points were discussed. In 1975 again this topic came up for discussion. But later on a rift created in between Pakistan, India and African Association/ITREB heads. Die hard Ginani Presidents took stand and refuse changes like President Amirali Haji of Canada along with some missionaries like late Abu Ali and others.
In early 90s, ITREB Preisdent Mr. Noor Ali Karam Ali started Ginan and Granth translation project. 4/5 books and some Granths were translated and published. Later on it was out sourced and Kamalzar publications translated and published rest of Ginan translations in Urdu, English, and in Gujrati, you are well aware of this project and you have the books. You can find changes in these books.
I quoted 2 farmans before of MSMS which were dubbed as fake by you people. One was, "HARI KO ALI KARDO", OTHER, "HINDU KI BATEE(N) DHARAM MEY PARHTEY HO YEH WAJIB NAHI."
Before pre partition it was MSMS's Hidayat for sub continent jamaits to change Hindu names to Muslim names. Please do not get annoyed (it is an example), your name is Karim Maherali, how you feel if it will be changed to 'karamchand Hari Om'.
The Takhtnashini Farman which you quoted of forefathers was meant to African Khoja jamaits. Then what about Central Asian countries jamaits or China jamaits? There forefathers were not converted from Hindu Dharma. They do not know Satpunthi Ginans, Hardly any Ismaili know there the names of Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin.

[Admin]

In the old times, we learned ginans while listening to them in Jamatkhana. From time to time students from ginan class would compete as well as ginans singers and talent would be recognised. All this has come to an end. In our Jk in Montreal only 3 verses are allowed and that also is alternated every other day with Qasidas, so there is no ginan recitation everyday.

The net effect is that Jamat does not sing ginans anymore with the reciter and the reciters themselves are discouraged as it make no sense to recite 2 verses followed by the last verse. This is all in the direction of killing ginans.

When Hazar Imam himself has referred to Ginans as "My Ginans".

[kmaherali]

I strongly disagree about restricting the recitation of gInans to a few verses or for a few minutes (4 in Calgary). I don't think spending extra five minutes on a Ginan could really matter. The Jamat does not disappear as soon as the 2 duas are recited. They usually hang around chatting etc. I hear that there is chai in Nairobi everyday.

The above notwithstanding, I still think that the restrictions can present opportunity for creative encounters with the Ginans for the reciters, provided they are told at least a day in advance. In that time they could read the meanings of the entire Ginan and then choose from them the verses that best reflect the wisdom that is appropriate for the day.

Unfortunately this does not happen. People are told to recite at the last moment giving them no time to think of the best verses to recite.

[kmaherali]

I confirmed it that in late 70s late Alwaiz Bachal, late Alwaiz Noorudin Bukhsh and other missionaries did explained the jamaits about changes. Some times Imam gives Hidayat verbally and do not give in writing, you are aware of this practice of Imam..

There is nothing about the changes in the Ginans which would entail the Imam to restrict the Hidayat to leaders only. After all the changes impact the murids directly on a daily basis. If indeed there was a Hidayat given verbally then it would have been context related as opposed to being universal.

There was a Ginan conference in 1969 followed by few Ginan workshops and many points were discussed. In 1975 again this topic came up for discussion. But later on a rift created in between Pakistan, India and African Association/ITREB heads. Die hard Ginani Presidents took stand and refuse changes like President Amirali Haji of Canada along with some missionaries like late Abu Ali and others..

Do you think there would be that kind of opposition to the changes if indeed there was a Hidayat? Doesn't say something about the Hidayat. Alwaez Amlani gave us lectures in the 80s and there was no mention about the changes. There was however a mention about categorizing the Ginans.

In early 90s, ITREB Preisdent Mr. Noor Ali Karam Ali started Ginan and Granth translation project. 4/5 books and some Granths were translated and published. Later on it was out sourced and Kamalzar publications translated and published rest of Ginan translations in Urdu, English, and in Gujrati, you are well aware of this project and you have the books. You can find changes in these books..

Yes I have all these books and it disheartens me to see some verses omitted simply because they mention Pahelaaj, Harishchandra, Jujesthan etc. There is no Islamic basis for such omissions.

I quoted 2 farmans before of MSMS which were dubbed as fake by you people. One was, "HARI KO ALI KARDO", OTHER, "HINDU KI BATEE(N) DHARAM MEY PARHTEY HO YEH WAJIB NAHI.".

If there were such Farmans then they must have been for specific contexts and not universal, otherewise they would have been known and printed.

Before pre partition it was MSMS's Hidayat for sub continent jamaits to change Hindu names to Muslim names. Please do not get annoyed (it is an example), your name is Karim Maherali, how you feel if it will be changed to 'karamchand Hari Om'..

If there was such a Farman then I would not hesitate to comply, though I don't see how it fits into the changes. People have changed names throughout history for taqiyya reasons.

The Takhtnashini Farman which you quoted of forefathers was meant to African Khoja jamaits. Then what about Central Asian countries jamaits or China jamaits? There forefathers were not converted from Hindu Dharma. They do not know Satpunthi Ginans, Hardly any Ismaili know there the names of Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin.

As I have said before Ginans are universal for all Jamats, just as Qasidas are universal for all Jamats. We khojas are learning about the Qasidas so I don't see why others cannot learn about the Ginans. There is strength in diversity and all the Jamats benefit from the collective wisdom from all traditions.

[shivaathervedi]

I confirmed it that in late 70s late Alwaiz Bachal, late Alwaiz Noorudin Bukhsh and other missionaries did explained the jamaits about changes. Some times Imam gives Hidayat verbally and do not give in writing, you are aware of this practice of Imam..

There is nothing about the changes in the Ginans which would entail the Imam to restrict the Hidayat to leaders only. After all the changes impact the murids directly on a daily basis. If indeed there was a Hidayat given verbally then it would have been context related as opposed to being universal.

There was a Ginan conference in 1969 followed by few Ginan workshops and many points were discussed. In 1975 again this topic came up for discussion. But later on a rift created in between Pakistan, India and African Association/ITREB heads. Die hard Ginani Presidents took stand and refuse changes like President Amirali Haji of Canada along with some missionaries like late Abu Ali and others..

Do you think there would be that kind of opposition to the changes if indeed there was a Hidayat? Doesn't say something about the Hidayat. Alwaez Amlani gave us lectures in the 80s and there was no mention about the changes. There was however a mention about categorizing the Ginans.

In early 90s, ITREB Preisdent Mr. Noor Ali Karam Ali started Ginan and Granth translation project. 4/5 books and some Granths were translated and published. Later on it was out sourced and Kamalzar publications translated and published rest of Ginan translations in Urdu, English, and in Gujrati, you are well aware of this project and you have the books. You can find changes in these books..

Yes I have all these books and it disheartens me to see some verses omitted simply because they mention Pahelaaj, Harishchandra, Jujesthan etc. There is no Islamic basis for such omissions.

I quoted 2 farmans before of MSMS which were dubbed as fake by you people. One was, "HARI KO ALI KARDO", OTHER, "HINDU KI BATEE(N) DHARAM MEY PARHTEY HO YEH WAJIB NAHI.".

If there were such Farmans then they must have been for specific contexts and not universal, otherewise they would have been known and printed.

Before pre partition it was MSMS's Hidayat for sub continent jamaits to change Hindu names to Muslim names. Please do not get annoyed (it is an example), your name is Karim Maherali, how you feel if it will be changed to 'karamchand Hari Om'..

If there was such a Farman then I would not hesitate to comply, though I don't see how it fits into the changes. People have changed names throughout history for taqiyya reasons.

The Takhtnashini Farman which you quoted of forefathers was meant to African Khoja jamaits. Then what about Central Asian countries jamaits or China jamaits? There forefathers were not converted from Hindu Dharma. They do not know Satpunthi Ginans, Hardly any Ismaili know there the names of Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin.

As I have said before Ginans are universal for all Jamats, just as Qasidas are universal for all Jamats. We khojas are learning about the Qasidas so I don't see why others cannot learn about the Ginans. There is strength in diversity and all the Jamats benefit from the collective wisdom from all traditions.

You wrote," There is nothing about the changes in Ginans which would entail Imam to restrict the Hidayat to leaders only."
Imam gives Hidayat and instructions to leaders when once or twice he calls meetings of Ismaili leadership including ITREB leadership. It is the duty of leadership to explain jamaits what the Hidayat is. Let me quote a London Farman here. Hazar Imam said," LEADERS ARE NOT TELLING THE JAMAITS WHAT IMAM IS TELLING THEM TO TELL THE JAMAIT."

You wrote,"... there was however a mention about CATEGORIZING OF GINANS," by Alwaiz Amlani.
Question is; Did ITREB Presidents categorized Ginans on their own? Obviously it was a Hidayat from Imam. The Ginans were categorized in three categories, and only 3rd Category Ginans were decided to be recited in JKs.

In Kamalzar publications they have mentioned, I quote," In selection of Ginanic parts for translation we have taken in consideration the principles and guidance established in International Ginanic Workshops."

Mostly all Gupti jamait before partition adopted Muslim names on Hidayat of MSMS.

For khojas of subcontinent it is easier for them to adopt Farsi Qasidas because mostly all Farsi alphabets are embedded in Urdu/Hindi languages but Ginans are difficult for central Asian jamaits due to many Sindhi and Gujrati peculiar alphabets. Also, so far no arrangements are made to teach them ginans, hence Satpunthi Ginans are not recited in C A JKs.

[kmaherali]

In Kamalzar publications they have mentioned, I quote," In selection of Ginanic parts for translation we have taken in consideration the principles and guidance established in International Ginanic Workshops.".

There is a report about the workshops on this thread - 3rd post on page 12. Please go through the link mentioned in the post.

For khojas of subcontinent it is easier for them to adopt Farsi Qasidas because mostly all Farsi alphabets are embedded in Urdu/Hindi languages but Ginans are difficult for central Asian jamaits due to many Sindhi and Gujrati peculiar alphabets. Also, so far no arrangements are made to teach them ginans, hence Satpunthi Ginans are not recited in C A JKs.

These days translations are available together with the recitations, so it should not be too difficult for all Ismailis to learn the Ginans and Qasidas.

[shivaathervedi]

Some comments on the 1980 Nairobi Ismailia Associations International Review meeting along with submission of comments on Ginans by President Amirali Haji of Canada.

This report confirms that Paris conference in 1975 was presided by Hazar Imam, as report says;" Our historic Paris conference that was held some 4 years ago, under the auspicious Chairmanship of Mowlana Hazar Imam." ( so this immpression is null and void that Imam was not present ).

This report confirms that decision was taken to Categorize Ginans. Fallowing are the comments by Ismailia Association Canada in their report submitted.

1. The Paris conference resolution has permitted us to make changes only at those places where there were 'Hindu Elements', but the changes have been made at those places where there were not the slightest traces of direct or indirect Hindu elements.
2. The Paris conference authorized us to remove only Hindu elements from our Ginans, but there has been a removal of that linguistic aspect of our Ginan, in the name of Hindu elemrnts.
3. The Paris conference resolved to publish one ensuing Ginanic literature with the concent of all Associations, where as the present publications have been made according to plan on only few Associations.

My comments;

1. Those couple of Associations who had complaints were late in FEED BACK in proper time frame work.
2. Did they approched to Hazar Imam for their concerns or kept silence on the issue after 1980.
3. Some members ( of this forum ) advocate to read , recite, understand parts of Quran, why not this rule be applied for Ginans as well.
4. The word Hindu is derived from Sindhu, which today is called India ( the name adopted from Indus valley ) has changed name in many past thousands of years and their mythology has changed in many ways then why not khojas being as Muslims streamline Hindu mythological terminologies acoording to changing times, atmosphere, and environoment.
5. There are many obsolete words in Ginans. They are not available in even dictionaries and are no longer in use, hence such words need replacement.
6. It is a FACT that Pirs borrowed names, stories and terminologies from Hindu mythology.
7. The 'Poetic Style' of Ginans dubbed as unique is same from ancient times and that style is available in Hindu old and modern Bhajans and Poetry.
8. I have an objection on this arrogant argument by late Alwaiz Amlani in his statement, I quote," WE IN CANADA ARE LIVING IN A FREE COUNTRY AND WE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FREEDOM TO FOLLOW." I think we have to follow Hidayat of Imam in which we have salvation or freedom of our souls.
9. Central Asian, Chinese, Middle East Arab jamaits are not familiar with Hindu names and mythology, to balance and for uniformity in our Tariqa it was necessary to make adjustments in Ginans by removing names like, Om. Vishnu, shiva, Mahesar,Krishna, Ram, Drupadi, Harish chandra, Karta, Treta, Duapur jugs and so on, there are hundreds out there. These Ginans are still around for research work and not neglected.
10. Imam is concerned about youth. We have now balanced RC CURRICULUM INTERNATIONALLY. Imam has allowed balanced Satpunthi literature to be taught in RCs, and selected Ginans be taught to students.

I wander about the knowledge of Waizeen Dept. of Canada who produced the Appendix about controvercies in old and new ginan publications. Let me quote few examples, it is mentioned;
SAAMI: (means husband, maalik, dhani, murshid) in Ginans is an Arabic word which means " THE HEARER ". It is not SAAMI but SAMII' in Arabic which means the hearer as used in Quran. ( Quranic quotations are given mostly to prove their points )
SHRI: does not mean LATIF in Arabic and is not used in Quran.
BRAHMA: is not mentioned in Quran and it does not mean according to Arabic dictionary as Noor e Muhammadi.
AVTAR: none of Shia or Sunni consider progeny of Ali as Avtars. Looks like mostly material is taken from Noorun ala Noor.
It is wrote in papers that NAKLANKI has nothing to do with Hindu ideology. Is NAKLANKI not a Hindu word?
The submission by Waizeen Dept of Canada has compared the publications by Lalji Devraj 1905 and Ismailia Association India 1952/1954. The manuscripts or hand written material by various writers and collectors had different wording, many induced by the writers of Ginans. Various old Ginan CHOPDIES had variant wordings which needed to be streamlined which our modern day Ginani scholars did.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
baby creature is repeating same thing over and over again.( he may be 50% true in this topic )
what has to be done with Ginans ,it is done with now.
there is no need to how,why this and that for person who does understand few word of Ginans.
Pirs did a par excellence job then to create material of inspiration looking at the profile of those to be inspired then.their language,customs traditions beliefs etc to get into true path of Ismailism.
early few year back I used to go for swimming a local pool
I wished everybody with Jai Sri krishna to all hindu members there,then they asked me what do we wish with I said Ya Ali Madad.
now before I wish them JSK,they wish me with Ya ali madad and jokingly I told for that my return reply would be Moul Ali Mmadad and not JSK if they do let me to wish them first with JSK
they said as long it the God's name is there It values as same.
I observe some members in denial mode trying to align themselves
with religious sentiments(dhamik bhavna) and passion for Ginans.( filtered and unwarranted ones)
they should keep their IMAAN over and above all this petty matters

[kmaherali]

1. Those couple of Associations who had complaints were late in FEED BACK in proper time frame work..

I think it may have taken longer because they wanted to do a thorough research and give a comprehensive report for consideration.

3. Some members ( of this forum ) advocate to read , recite, understand parts of Quran, why not this rule be applied for Ginans as well..

The Imam has told us to study parts of the Qur'an. He has not said the same about the Ginans.

4. The word Hindu is derived from Sindhu, which today is called India ( the name adopted from Indus valley ) has changed name in many past thousands of years and their mythology has changed in many ways then why not khojas being as Muslims streamline Hindu mythological terminologies acoording to changing times, atmosphere, and environoment..

Generally you don't tamper with works of art unless there is absolute need for it. Genuine works of art are universal and apply to anyone whether a Hindu, Muslim, Christian. It does not restrict its audience to a specific time or space. The same work can speak to people 5000 years in the past to 5000 years in the future. No need to change the words.

5. There are many obsolete words in Ginans. They are not available in even dictionaries and are no longer in use, hence such words need replacement..

Give examples

6. It is a FACT that Pirs borrowed names, stories and terminologies from Hindu mythology. .

MSMS mentioned in his Dar es Salaam Aug 1945 speech that Hindu mythology has allegorical value and must be retained.

7. The 'Poetic Style' of Ginans dubbed as unique is same from ancient times and that style is available in Hindu old and modern Bhajans and Poetry..

MHI has called the Ginans unique and special.

8. I have an objection on this arrogant argument by late Alwaiz Amlani in his statement, I quote," WE IN CANADA ARE LIVING IN A FREE COUNTRY AND WE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FREEDOM TO FOLLOW." I think we have to follow Hidayat of Imam in which we have salvation or freedom of our souls..

I don't think he meant anything about not following the Farmans.

9. Central Asian, Chinese, Middle East Arab jamaits are not familiar with Hindu names and mythology, to balance and for uniformity in our Tariqa it was necessary to make adjustments in Ginans by removing names like, Om. Vishnu, shiva, Mahesar,Krishna, Ram, Drupadi, Harish chandra, Karta, Treta, Duapur jugs and so on, there are hundreds out there. These Ginans are still around for research work and not neglected..

There is strength in diversity; each historical tradition within our Jamat must express itself in its original form. Hence Khojas will learn about the Qasidas without altering them and others will learn about the Ginanic background without changing them.

AVTAR: none of Shia or Sunni consider progeny of Ali as Avtars. Looks like mostly material is taken from Noorun ala Noor.
It is wrote in papers that NAKLANKI has nothing to do with Hindu ideology. Is NAKLANKI not a Hindu word?.

So are you suggesting we should alter our understanding to suit the other Shias and Sunnis. The Qur'an says that a PROOF has been sent. That can be interpreted as Avtaar. Naklanki may be a Hindu word in form but in meaning it is Islamic. Don't we call the Imams the PURE - Athaar in our Du'a?

Various old Ginan CHOPDIES had variant wordings which needed to be streamlined which our modern day Ginani scholars did.

I thought that was the work of Mukhi Lalji Devraj to streamline the variant versions.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
baby creature is repeating same thing over and over again.( he may be 50% true in this topic )
what has to be done with Ginans ,it is done with now.
there is no need to how,why this and that for person who does understand few word of Ginans.
Pirs did a par excellence job then to create material of inspiration looking at the profile of those to be inspired then.their language,customs traditions beliefs etc to get into true path of Ismailism.
early few year back I used to go for swimming a local pool
I wished everybody with Jai Sri krishna to all hindu members there,then they asked me what do we wish with I said Ya Ali Madad.
now before I wish them JSK,they wish me with Ya ali madad and jokingly I told for that my return reply would be Moul Ali Mmadad and not JSK if they do let me to wish them first with JSK
they said as long it the God's name is there It values as same.
I observe some members in denial mode trying to align themselves
with religious sentiments(dhamik bhavna) and passion for Ginans.( filtered and unwarranted ones)
they should keep their IMAAN over and above all this petty matters

JAI SHRI KRISHNA,

EL NINO, do you believe Ali as Krishna? Please reply, this time do not go into deep sleep. Ginans are not petty issue, they are going to stay for long. On Imam's order they are categorized to avoid Hindu elements only in Ginans. The sufi, mystic, and ethical Ginans will stay for ever. There was a time you refuted Ginans and Pirs as dead of past, nice to see now honoring Ginans.

[shivaathervedi]

1. Those couple of Associations who had complaints were late in FEED BACK in proper time frame work..

I think it may have taken longer because they wanted to do a thorough research and give a comprehensive report for consideration.

Reply:
The project which should have taken 6 months prolonged for almost 5 years. Look at their research! They false fully tried to prove Hindu terminologies as Quranic words, you did not shed light on that.

3. Some members ( of this forum ) advocate to read , recite, understand parts of Quran, why not this rule be applied for Ginans as well..

The Imam has told us to study parts of the Qur'an. He has not said the same about the Ginans.

Reply:
Why Imam gave Hidayat in first place to categorize Ginans? He allowed category 3 Ginans to be recited in JKs. Past 30+ years the Ginan books published by ITREB are abridged. Scores of parts are missing from Granths and other Ginans. The abridged Ginans are called parts of Ginans.

4. The word Hindu is derived from Sindhu, which today is called India ( the name adopted from Indus valley ) has changed name in many past thousands of years and their mythology has changed in many ways then why not khojas being as Muslims streamline Hindu mythological terminologies acoording to changing times, atmosphere, and environoment..

Generally you don't tamper with works of art unless there is absolute need for it. Genuine works of art are universal and apply to anyone whether a Hindu, Muslim, Christian. It does not restrict its audience to a specific time or space. The same work can speak to people 5000 years in the past to 5000 years in the future. No need to change the words.

Reply:
You wrote," unless there is absolute need for it." Imam felt the need that's why he gave Hidayat to categorize Ginans and remove Hindu elements.

5. There are many obsolete words in Ginans. They are not available in even dictionaries and are no longer in use, hence such words need replacement..

Give examples

Reply:
Like trutho, manjiaro. The meanings in Ginan books for such words are speculated and not real.

6. It is a FACT that Pirs borrowed names, stories and terminologies from Hindu mythology. .

MSMS mentioned in his Dar es Salaam Aug 1945 speech that Hindu mythology has allegorical value and must be retained.

Reply:
MSMS also said," Hindu ni ilm ni waato parho chho ay wajib nathi.." KIM. In early 50s he said Hari ko Ali kardo.

7. The 'Poetic Style' of Ginans dubbed as unique is same from ancient times and that style is available in Hindu old and modern Bhajans and Poetry..

MHI has called the Ginans unique and special.

Reply:
The words used in Canadian papers are " Poetic Style" which is unique. I commented on Poetic Style which is still same since ancient times.

8. I have an objection on this arrogant argument by late Alwaiz Amlani in his statement, I quote," WE IN CANADA ARE LIVING IN A FREE COUNTRY AND WE MUST BE GIVEN OUR FREEDOM TO FOLLOW." I think we have to follow Hidayat of Imam in which we have salvation or freedom of our souls..

I don't think he meant anything about not following the Farmans.

Reply:
I have objection on the statement by Late Alwaez," WE IN CANADA ARE LIVING IN A FREE COUNTRY........" What he wanted to prove, because WE live in a free country so we adopt what we want neglecting Hidayat.

9. Central Asian, Chinese, Middle East Arab jamaits are not familiar with Hindu names and mythology, to balance and for uniformity in our Tariqa it was necessary to make adjustments in Ginans by removing names like, Om. Vishnu, shiva, Mahesar,Krishna, Ram, Drupadi, Harish chandra, Karta, Treta, Duapur jugs and so on, there are hundreds out there. These Ginans are still around for research work and not neglected..

There is strength in diversity; each historical tradition within our Jamat must express itself in its original form. Hence Khojas will learn about the Qasidas without altering them and others will learn about the Ginanic background without changing them.

Reply:
So far only one Qasida is circulating in mostly JKs that is HUMA E DUM ALI ALI. Haven't heard any other Qasida. To adopt Gujrati and Sindhi language is difficult for Central Asian Ismailis and there are no Ginan classes arranged for them.

AVTAR: none of Shia or Sunni consider progeny of Ali as Avtars. Looks like mostly material is taken from Noorun ala Noor.
It is wrote in papers that NAKLANKI has nothing to do with Hindu ideology. Is NAKLANKI not a Hindu word?.

So are you suggesting we should alter our understanding to suit the other Shias and Sunnis. The Qur'an says that a PROOF has been sent. That can be interpreted as Avtaar. Naklanki may be a Hindu word in form but in meaning it is Islamic. Don't we call the Imams the PURE - Athaar in our Du'a?

Reply:
In Sunni and Isna'shiri literature there is no mention of progeny of ALI as being avtars. You wrote," Quranic word PROOF can be interpreted as Avtar." The Quranic word HUJJAT is not equivalent to Avtar. Same wrong interpretation is mentioned in Canadian papers. You wrote," Naklanki may be a Hindu word in form..." It is not 'may be' BUT for sure Naklanki is a Hindu word in their literature.

Various old Ginan CHOPDIES had variant wordings which needed to be streamlined which our modern day Ginani scholars did.

I thought that was the work of Mukhi Lalji Devraj to streamline the variant versions.

Reply:
No doubt Mukhi Lalji did great work but what about other hand written CHOPADIES which popped up and unearthed after Mukhi Lalji. Those were taken into account and scrutinized.