momin chetamani

[ismaili103]

POOR MAZHAR;

Yaa Ali Madad.

Study Ginans,

You have problems with Ginans of SYEDS, leave it, go and read GINANS of OFFICIAL PIRS. PIR SADARDIN, SHAMS, HASAN KABIRUDDIN, SAT GUR NUR ETC.

I'm giving you an equation which are simply you can find in GINANS OF OFFICIAL PIRS. Its up to you either accept it, research on it or critisize on it. " TO YOU YOURS, TO ME MINE"

The Equation is as follow:

ALI= VISHNU=IMAM= DIVINE NOOR= GOD
MUHAMMAD= BHRAMA= PIR=DIVINE NOOR= CREATOR= GOD
IMAM=GOD
PIR= GOD

This is the answer for your above statement in which you said " UNIVERSE IS CREATED BY GOD NOT BY MUHAMMAD AND HIS CO PARTNER"

Before making any statement do some Research on it.

OKIEE.... Heres a shocking statement for you.

In Ginans like ANANT AKHADO ,
PIR HASAN KABIRUDDIN CALLED HIM SELF "CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES"

NOT ONLY PIR HASSAN KABIRUDDIN, PIR SADARDIN AND SHAMS ALSO STATED IN THEIR GINAN THAT HE IS" CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES."

[agakhani]

Code: Select all

ALI= VISHNU=IMAM= DIVINE NOOR= GOD 
MUHAMMAD= BHRAMA= PIR=DIVINE NOOR= CREATOR= GOD 
IMAM=GOD 
PIR= GOD 

Exactly!! that is what I am trying to prove for a long time but some shaky imanis in this forum does not understand it and I do not hope that they will ever understand it!!

Whatever you wrote is absolutely true

BTW: your explanation is well taken by me and may be others too ,thanks for your posting, this a right posting, on right time and in right thread!!

[tret]

Hence there were two mazhars of Allah

Interesting... I have always thought that Islam [and Ismaili for that matter] is a monotheist / monorealist religion. I had no idea that there could be multitude of God at the same time, similar to hindus belief system.

[ismaili103]

Hence there were two mazhars of Allah

Interesting... I have always thought that Islam [and Ismaili for that matter] is a monotheist / monorealist religion. I had no idea that there could be multitude of God at the same time, similar to hindus belief system.

Tret,

YAM

You have some poor understanding, there are many indivisuals who attain FANA( ASAL MAI WASIL ) without death. They achive it in there life by practicing bandagi. e.g MANSOOR AL HALLAJ. Hence they all became MAZHAR OF DIVINE in there life or you can say they bacame DIVINE ITSELF.

I think you know the meaning of ALLAH U AKBAR.
If DIVINE manifest in one body so he is that much Great that he can also MANIFEST in 10 million beings and even in infinite brings.

He is that much GREAT that he can manifest in HUMAN, and even that much GREAT that he can also MANIFEST in BACTERIA.

[tret]

Hence there were two mazhars of Allah

Interesting... I have always thought that Islam [and Ismaili for that matter] is a monotheist / monorealist religion. I had no idea that there could be multitude of God at the same time, similar to hindus belief system.

Tret,

YAM

You have some poor understanding, there are many indivisuals who attain FANA( ASAL MAI WASIL ) without death. They achive it in there life by practicing bandagi. e.g MANSOOR AL HALLAJ. Hence they all became MAZHAR OF DIVINE in there life or you can say they bacame DIVINE ITSELF.

I think you know the meaning of ALLAH U AKBAR.
If DIVINE manifest in one body so he is that much Great that he can also MANIFEST in 10 million beings and even in infinite brings.

He is that much GREAT that he can manifest in HUMAN, and even that much GREAT that he can also MANIFEST in BACTERIA.

I may have a poor understanding and I never claimed that I know-it-all, unlike yourself or some other members. You are in no place to judge anyone, btw. Besides what you say, is according to who? Any reference? Or it's just your opinion?

First, Ismaili is NOT sufi. Engrave that in your mind!!!!
Sufis claim that disciple becomes one with the Master; that's because they don't subscribe to the notion of Imamate! That in itself negates the notion and concept of Imamate. The foundation of Ismaili belief system is the Imamate.

You clearly negated the concept of Imamate my "knowing" friend! Imagine this: If Hallaje becomes the Mazhar of God and for that matter anyone else can become Mazhar of God [you didn't even restricted to humans, but you also included bacteria as well], then why do we need the presence and existence of the Imam-e-Zaman? If you achieve higher stations, then you Imam doesn't mean anything to you, would it? This is how sufis believe! On the contrary, Ismailis believe in the Doctrine of Ta'lim and as such, there's always the need for the Imam-e-Zaman to be present in each dawr!!!

From where I see, my good friend, you have a very poor understanding of our faith! Before pointing a finger towards others, make sure you are flawless first. It appears that all my "Ali Allah" friends have entire different concept of God. God/Allah apparently means something else to you. Therefore, to you Imam is Allah, Pir is Allah, Hallaj is Allah, even cow and elephants are Allah too. So, I don't know who has poor understanding?


BTW, Islam [and Ismailis] don't believe in multiple Gods!!! Inform yourself!

[Admin]

All post which are directed to particular members will be henceforth deleted.

Please keep posts independent of personal fights and insults and keep to the items to be argued. Thanks.

[fayaz006]

Interesting... I have always thought that Islam [and Ismaili for that matter] is a monotheist / monorealist religion. I had no idea that there could be multitude of God at the same time, similar to hindus belief system.

Tret,

YAM

You have some poor understanding, there are many indivisuals who attain FANA( ASAL MAI WASIL ) without death. They achive it in there life by practicing bandagi. e.g MANSOOR AL HALLAJ. Hence they all became MAZHAR OF DIVINE in there life or you can say they bacame DIVINE ITSELF.

I think you know the meaning of ALLAH U AKBAR.
If DIVINE manifest in one body so he is that much Great that he can also MANIFEST in 10 million beings and even in infinite brings.

He is that much GREAT that he can manifest in HUMAN, and even that much GREAT that he can also MANIFEST in BACTERIA.

I may have a poor understanding and I never claimed that I know-it-all, unlike yourself or some other members. You are in no place to judge anyone, btw. Besides what you say, is according to who? Any reference? Or it's just your opinion?

First, Ismaili is NOT sufi. Engrave that in your mind!!!!
Sufis claim that disciple becomes one with the Master; that's because they don't subscribe to the notion of Imamate! That in itself negates the notion and concept of Imamate. The foundation of Ismaili belief system is the Imamate.

You clearly negated the concept of Imamate my "knowing" friend! Imagine this: If Hallaje becomes the Mazhar of God and for that matter anyone else can become Mazhar of God [you didn't even restricted to humans, but you also included bacteria as well], then why do we need the presence and existence of the Imam-e-Zaman? If you achieve higher stations, then you Imam doesn't mean anything to you, would it? This is how sufis believe! On the contrary, Ismailis believe in the Doctrine of Ta'lim and as such, there's always the need for the Imam-e-Zaman to be present in each dawr!!!

From where I see, my good friend, you have a very poor understanding of our faith! Before pointing a finger towards others, make sure you are flawless first. It appears that all my "Ali Allah" friends have entire different concept of God. God/Allah apparently means something else to you. Therefore, to you Imam is Allah, Pir is Allah, Hallaj is Allah, even cow and elephants are Allah too. So, I don't know who has poor understanding?


BTW, Islam [and Ismailis] don't believe in multiple Gods!!! Inform yourself!

It is my understanding that monotheism and mono realism are completely separate. Monotheism is belief that God is singular, which would imply that He is separate from His creation. Whereas Monorealism is belief that there is only one True Reality and everything else is part of that reality. Therefore the notion of God in monorealism becomes the notion of the Universal Soul. All other realities such as the physical universe are part of the One True Reality, which ordinary humans cannot perceive. I may be wrong here and may be somebody else can elaborate further.

Therefore what Ismaili103, agakhani and several other people have tried to mention is that, Ali, Mohammad, The Pirs, The Imams and Several other "Enlightened Individuals throughout the course of human history, such as Christ, Moses and Noah, were part of that Universal Soul. They could perceive It and they knew the Universal Knowledge. Since they were part of the Universal Soul, the notion of Tawheed would kick in and you would have to argue that they were the Universal Soul. Again my understanding.

A ordinary human such as al-Hallaj became One with Universal Soul through his prayers and years of trial. Off course it was the blessing of the Universal Soul to give him a "third eye" so he could perceive the One True Reality. So in keeping with the notion of Mono Realism, al-Hallaj become one with The Imam, and with God. al-Hallaj in my opinion became the Master. The Quran mention that only God is ever living, yet the Quran also mentions that humans and not animals have been promised eternal life.

Also where Ismaili103 got his equations was through the Ginans that numerous Imams including the current One have unequivocally endorsed. All you have to do is read their English translations on this website, which you were advised to do in the past. As i have mentioned before, the Ismaili philosophy of the Fatimid times evolved and was influenced by many factors. So were the Ginans, however i would argue that it is your prerogative to study both.

[Admin]

It is my understanding that monotheism and mono realism are completely separate. Monotheism is belief that God is singular, which would imply that He is separate from His creation. Whereas Monorealism is belief that there is only one True Reality and everything else is part of that reality.

In his handwritten letter, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has used the word "Monism"

[tret]

I wanted to point out the Oneness of Allah vs how ismaili103 [and some other members explain] a multitude of Gods [polytheism], then to distinguish monotheism vs monotheism.

Whereas Monorealism is belief that there is only one True Reality and everything else is part of that reality.

I'd like you to clarify this. Because, the way you put it together, seems more like pantheism then anything else. Please clarify your stand.

Fayaz -

- Are you [and other members] suggesting that the Universal Soul is God? Are you serious now? Clarify please... If that's true; then, please label it as your own personal belief or opinion. No Imam, Hujjat or Prophet has though this. MHI has been very clear to understand the concept of God in accordance to surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. Please contemplate and see if what you believe, is in accordance to surah Ikhlas.
- Are you implying that "all other realities" is just the physical universe? Clarify please... Or there are other realities? Which ones? You just named physical universe.
- I repeat again and I'd like you to listen as opposed to just respond: In sufi order disciple becomes one with the master, because they don't adhere to the concept of Imamate; whereas for Ismailis, Imamate is the very foundation of our belief. If disciple becomes one with the Master, there's no need for the Imam of the Time. Please read carefully and reflect. An ordinary man never becomes Imam. The Ismaili belief is that The Divine identifies the elevated soul with itself. There's a clear distinction between the Master and disciple.

The problem isn't with the Ginans, Fayaz; the problem is how some members interprets the Ginans, because Pirs had to keep in mind the hindu concepts when composing the Ginans at that point in time. Apparently Pirs and Imams had a mission of Dawah.

Fayaz, you say ismaili philosophy of fatimid times evolved. Do you mean the notion of God has evolved from the time of Fatimid? Because this is the very core of the discussion, nothing else.

If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????

[Admin]

....and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????

Why so much hate for the "Khoja" Jamat?

is there anything new which The "Khoja" Jamat believes and which is not in the Khutba al Bayan or the Khutbat al-Tatanjiyya of Hazrat Ali on his status as Pre-eternal Noor? Or do "Khojas" believe anything which is not in the call of Hazrat Ali at Jang-e-Siffin about Him being the Speaking Quran or the Declaration of Imam Hakim to 10,000 Arabs gathered under his balcony that He was the Tenth Manifestation?

[kmaherali]

Hence there were two mazhars of Allah

Interesting... I have always thought that Islam [and Ismaili for that matter] is a monotheist / monorealist religion. I had no idea that there could be multitude of God at the same time, similar to hindus belief system.

You are absolutely right. There is only One God for all Muslims. However for Ismailis there is One Ocean and many individual drops can merge into the Ocean to become the Ocean.

[kmaherali]

First, Ismaili is NOT sufi. Engrave that in your mind!!!!

MSMS has said in his Farman that we must turn our toughts to Sufism. In the Amman Conference statement the Imam said:
Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies.
So from the practical point of view we are very close to Sufism except for the doctrine of the Mursheed who is permanent in our case.

You clearly negated the concept of Imamate my "knowing" friend! Imagine this: If Hallaje becomes the Mazhar of God and for that matter anyone else can become Mazhar of God [you didn't even restricted to humans, but you also included bacteria as well], then why do we need the presence and existence of the Imam-e-Zaman? If you achieve higher stations, then you Imam doesn't mean anything to you, would it? This is how sufis believe! On the contrary, Ismailis believe in the Doctrine of Ta'lim and as such, there's always the need for the Imam-e-Zaman to be present in each dawr!!!!

We have been through this before. The office of the Imamate is hereditory and permanent, in which case there will always be a need to have a permanent Imam. However individuals can attain the status of Fanna through the help of other Mursheed Kameels. Rumi attained Fanna through the help of Shams who was Fanna.

If Fanna could only be available through the Imam, the implication is that the rest of mankind are excluded from the experience!

Therefore, to you Imam is Allah, Pir is Allah, Hallaj is Allah, even cow and elephants are Allah too. So, I don't know who has poor understanding?

There can be only one functioning Imam who is recognised as such. But there can be many beings who could attain the status of Fanna and hence be Allah (in simple language of course).

Qur'an mentions that Allah manifested in a tree to commuicate with Moses!

[kmaherali]

If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????

I wonder whether you ever read the posts. I have posted several times and I post again!!

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

[erumsuleman]

Mazhar,

The Momna as quoted in "Momna Chetamnai" are those 4 slaves of Bibi Fatima and history about themexplained it beautifully by shinan.

Now let me tell you about Imam shahi "momnas"!! these momanas are different then the momnas of Sidhpur and nearby villages let me give you a short history of Imam Shahi momnas.

The most and attractive miracle Syed Imam Shah performed to Hindu pilgrimages they were going to take bath in river Ganga, according Hindu beliefs if some one takes bath in river Ganga their all sins wiped out and he/she reaches in "Swarg" and achieves Moksha (salvation),therefore Hindus are still going in Banaras/Kashi and takes bath in water of Ganaga.
Syed Imam Shah told them where are you going? the leader of that group answered him that they are going Banaras to take bath in river Ganga, so that our all sins wiped out and we receive Moksha, Syed Imam Shah asked them what if I call river Ganga here ( in Girmatha, the name of the village, where Syed Imam shah called Ganga river) instead of you travel all the way Banaras, the pilgrimages requested him if you can call Ganga here then it would be lot better for us, it will save our time and money.
Syed Imam Shah called River Ganaga over there in Girmatha village, close to Pirana, all pilgrimages took bath in the river Ganga and they felled that they were really in Banarash/Kashi, they also cashed there "Hundi" ( a currency like bearer check,/ Cashier check or Demand Draft) and gave Bhojan (food) to the Brahmins ( a holy men in Hindu religion)but after all they did they realized that was a miracle and this miracles performed by this Muslim saint Syed Imam Shah, so they urged him to accept them in Pir's sect. Pir took them in Islam and thus many peoples from Patel, Brahmins and other sects joined in Islam at that time and same place, they called as "Momna" at that time but now a days they are recognized as ImamShahi , after all pilgrimages took bath the river Ganga disappeared. I want to make one clarification here, the other "Momanas" who are still residing near Sidhpur areas were first converted by Pir Satgur Noor and latter on Pir Tajddin and Pir KassimShah rejuvenated, reorganized and regrouped them and settled 250 families near Sidhpur and Methan, Metrana and other 22 villages and other 250 families settled in Kathiawar, now a days they are living many countries specially Pakistan, India, USA, Canada and many more. It is possible that in these pilgrimages group some Momins mentioned above might be joined in that pilgrimages group peoples who were going "yatra" of a holy place name Banaras/Kashi because Pirana, Mehsana, Ahmedabad, Patan and Sidhpur are very closer towns as per one researcher.
My own research is very similar to this but it has more proofs, which I already posted in the history of "Momna Jamat' in this website, interesting readers must have to read that.

AS PER MY OWN RESEARCH FOLLOWING ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IMAMSHAHI SECT:-

1, Imamshah was the son of pir Hasan Kabirdin.
2, In most ginans ( dhrol) Imamshah mentioned the name of Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Sadardin and pir Shams.
3, As per their dhrol pir Sadardin will give salvation of 12 karor murids same per our Ismaili ginanic literature.
4, They also believe in 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu and about Nakalanki avatar. Imamshah wrote in his many ginans that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu but after the death of Imamshah some disciples of his started to believe that Imamshah was the 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but this is not true Imamshah never ever claimed himself as a 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu if you read and study Imamshah's own ginans whatever they have and whatever we Ismaili have you will not find this.
5, They recite 'OM' same like Hindus but also they have 'KALAMA"
6, They still have some Hindu rituals and traditions, so it is still big question for some sects and many scholars whether to consider them as a Hindu or Muslim.
7, After the death of Syed Imamshah this sect had many changes has come specially in their prayer, words and own rituals.


8, Imam Shahi sect was started by Syed Noor Mohammad Shah after the death of his father Imam Shah, he stopped to give Dasond to Hazar Imam and started to keep with him, so jamats complained to imam so, imam told jamats not to give dasond to him and draw him out from the ismaili sect, therefore in revenge he started his own sect and gave name " Imam Shahi sect" Imam Shah was not strated Imam Shahi sect. Some says that he started to considere himself as A 'NAR' Nar means Imam so that Imam draw him out from Ismaili sect.

I have many ginans of Syed Noor Mohd shah but only one ginan he wrote himself as a 'NAR' in other ginans he accepted Imam Islam shah as a imam.

Name some ginans...

[fayaz006]

I wanted to point out the Oneness of Allah vs how ismaili103 [and some other members explain] a multitude of Gods [polytheism], then to distinguish monotheism vs monotheism.

Whereas Monorealism is belief that there is only one True Reality and everything else is part of that reality.

I'd like you to clarify this. Because, the way you put it together, seems more like pantheism then anything else. Please clarify your stand.

Fayaz -

- Are you [and other members] suggesting that the Universal Soul is God? Are you serious now? Clarify please... If that's true; then, please label it as your own personal belief or opinion. No Imam, Hujjat or Prophet has though this. MHI has been very clear to understand the concept of God in accordance to surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. Please contemplate and see if what you believe, is in accordance to surah Ikhlas.
- Are you implying that "all other realities" is just the physical universe? Clarify please... Or there are other realities? Which ones? You just named physical universe.
- I repeat again and I'd like you to listen as opposed to just respond: In sufi order disciple becomes one with the master, because they don't adhere to the concept of Imamate; whereas for Ismailis, Imamate is the very foundation of our belief. If disciple becomes one with the Master, there's no need for the Imam of the Time. Please read carefully and reflect. An ordinary man never becomes Imam. The Ismaili belief is that The Divine identifies the elevated soul with itself. There's a clear distinction between the Master and disciple.

The problem isn't with the Ginans, Fayaz; the problem is how some members interprets the Ginans, because Pirs had to keep in mind the hindu concepts when composing the Ginans at that point in time. Apparently Pirs and Imams had a mission of Dawah.

Fayaz, you say ismaili philosophy of fatimid times evolved. Do you mean the notion of God has evolved from the time of Fatimid? Because this is the very core of the discussion, nothing else.

If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????

Tret please understand that i am here to learn and not force you to believe what i believe. Your are responsible for what you want to believe. I will say that Monotheism and Monorealism are fundamentally apart. Monotheism fundamentally assigns God a unique nature.

Thereby recognition of any of his creation would mean Not recognizing God. Which is why Wahabis have desecrated graves of several Imams. If you believe in monotheism, sooner or later you are bound to have several philosophical issues with esoteric Ismaili doctrine. Below is an excerpt on MSMS's views of what Islam truly is.

From Ismailignosis

“It is a Muslim’s highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great Universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.”


You'd want to read the entire article at
http://ismailignosis.com/2013/06/27/the ... /#more-869

After you read the article, consider really what ismaili faith is. Consider carefully whether you would claim Ismailis as monotheists or monorealists.

As for Ginans and their interpretation how can you so confidently claim that members have gotten their interpretation wrong. Have you read them? You have been advised by your Imam to study them. Why dont you study the same Ginans as Ismaili103 and agakhani have and come up with your own interpretation about Ali sahi Allah. Otherwise there cannot be a discussion between us.
[/quote]

[kmaherali]

yet the Quran also mentions that humans and not animals have been promised eternal life.

Fayaz can you provide Qur'anic references for the above.

[tret]

Why so much hate for the "Khoja" Jamat?

Hate? Well, I guess you should ask this question from few other members [don't wanna name names] who tries to divide the jama'at as qasida lovers and ginan lovers.
And please, read carefully what I wrote, and try and answer the real question posed. I asked multiple question, and this wasn't one of them.

No Imam has ever said "I am Allah". Note, when it is said about [Eternal Imam] "The Creator or the sustainor" That doesn't mean that Imam is God [The Transcendent].

Like I said, maybe God means something else to you. i.e. to fayaz, God is Universal Soul. Seeing from his POV, it makes sense. Now, if you concur with fayaz and say God is The Universal Soul, then okay I have no further question.

[tret]

I wanted to point out the Oneness of Allah vs how ismaili103 [and some other members explain] a multitude of Gods [polytheism], then to distinguish monotheism vs monotheism.

Whereas Monorealism is belief that there is only one True Reality and everything else is part of that reality.

I'd like you to clarify this. Because, the way you put it together, seems more like pantheism then anything else. Please clarify your stand.

Fayaz -

- Are you [and other members] suggesting that the Universal Soul is God? Are you serious now? Clarify please... If that's true; then, please label it as your own personal belief or opinion. No Imam, Hujjat or Prophet has though this. MHI has been very clear to understand the concept of God in accordance to surah Ikhlas of the Qur'an. Please contemplate and see if what you believe, is in accordance to surah Ikhlas.
- Are you implying that "all other realities" is just the physical universe? Clarify please... Or there are other realities? Which ones? You just named physical universe.
- I repeat again and I'd like you to listen as opposed to just respond: In sufi order disciple becomes one with the master, because they don't adhere to the concept of Imamate; whereas for Ismailis, Imamate is the very foundation of our belief. If disciple becomes one with the Master, there's no need for the Imam of the Time. Please read carefully and reflect. An ordinary man never becomes Imam. The Ismaili belief is that The Divine identifies the elevated soul with itself. There's a clear distinction between the Master and disciple.

The problem isn't with the Ginans, Fayaz; the problem is how some members interprets the Ginans, because Pirs had to keep in mind the hindu concepts when composing the Ginans at that point in time. Apparently Pirs and Imams had a mission of Dawah.

Fayaz, you say ismaili philosophy of fatimid times evolved. Do you mean the notion of God has evolved from the time of Fatimid? Because this is the very core of the discussion, nothing else.

If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????

Tret please understand that i am here to learn and not force you to believe what i believe. Your are responsible for what you want to believe. I will say that Monotheism and Monorealism are fundamentally apart. Monotheism fundamentally assigns God a unique nature.

Thereby recognition of any of his creation would mean Not recognizing God. Which is why Wahabis have desecrated graves of several Imams. If you believe in monotheism, sooner or later you are bound to have several philosophical issues with esoteric Ismaili doctrine. Below is an excerpt on MSMS's views of what Islam truly is.

From Ismailignosis

“It is a Muslim’s highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great Universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.”


You'd want to read the entire article at
http://ismailignosis.com/2013/06/27/the ... /#more-869

After you read the article, consider really what ismaili faith is. Consider carefully whether you would claim Ismailis as monotheists or monorealists.

As for Ginans and their interpretation how can you so confidently claim that members have gotten their interpretation wrong. Have you read them? You have been advised by your Imam to study them. Why dont you study the same Ginans as Ismaili103 and agakhani have and come up with your own interpretation about Ali sahi Allah. Otherwise there cannot be a discussion between us.

[/quote]



fayaz - I repeat again. Please read carefully.

My point wasn't to tell you the difference between monotheism or monorealism. I know they are different. But rather, my point was that Ismaili Islam isn't polytheism, as ismaili103 and others believe that there could be a multitude of Gods, same as hindus that have a god for everything. I hope this is clear to you now. And for your information, I had already read that article, thank you very much.

fayaz - No Imam has ever thought that Imam is Allah. When Imams in their sermons of recognitions uses phrases such as "I am the creator" or "I am the First and the Last", etc... Please be careful, this doesn't imply that Imam is the Transcendent One/Supreme God [rather it's people like yourself and few members here who draw that conclusion]. Because The True Transcendent One is beyond existence and non-existence. It is The First that is the necessary and contingent existence and cause of all causes, and therefore, "The Creator and the sustainor" "The First and the Last [Awal and Akheer]" and other expressions as such. I am sure the same concept is explain in ginans...

Ismaili Doctrines/truth are not confined only in the ginans. Before, ginanic texts, Ismailis existed before. You didn't reply to my question of how ismaili philosophy evolved from the time of fatimid until now? How the concept of God has evolved from the fatimid until now?

Ginans are great tradition, as MHI mentioned. One is not obliged to study them; but it's encouraged. I myself read the translation, when I can. But, if you imply that truth can be found only in ginans [like some members here claim], then I beg to differ.

I believe the purpose of these virtual spaces are to share and learn; however, if you fell otherwise, you are more than welcome to refrain. I honestly don't even reply to most posts of some participants, because I know there's no learning and sharing, but rather personal emotions and egos involved.

Finally - Please I asked you few questions. Would you be able to provide your answer? That would be of great help and clarify things.

[tret]

]
MSMS has said in his Farman that we must turn our toughts to Sufism. In the Amman Conference statement the Imam said:
Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies.
So from the practical point of view we are very close to Sufism except for the doctrine of the Mursheed who is permanent in our case.

Apart from personal search and balance, there's nothing in common with sufism.

ISmailis believe in the concept of Imamat, sufis don't.
Ismailis maintains the distinction between murid and mursheed, sufis don't.
Ismailis believe in balance of din and dunya, sufis forsake din for dunya.
ISmailis believe Imam is the Mursheed-e-Kamil/Lord/Master of Masters, sufis say, everyone can be mursheed.

kmaherali - you quote one thing from Imam, then you believe something else.

We have been through this before. The office of the Imamate is hereditory and permanent, in which case there will always be a need to have a permanent Imam. However individuals can attain the status of Fanna through the help of other Mursheed Kameels. Rumi attained Fanna through the help of Shams who was Fanna.

If Fanna could only be available through the Imam, the implication is that the rest of mankind are excluded from the experience!

we have been through this before, then you must be correct then!!!

That's exactly the believe of non-ismailis, who don't subscribe to the concept of Imamate!!!! That's why ulima of ahl-e-sunnah, such as al-ghizali opposed the concept of Imamate, claiming that anyone can attain the higher status and there's no need for an Imam, and therefore, the concept of Imamate is void!!! Do you really see where this is going???

Read Paradise of Submission, where Tusi gives clear-cut reason why the presence of Imam is important.

here can be only one functioning Imam who is recognised as such. But there can be many beings who could attain the status of Fanna and hence be Allah (in simple language of course).

Qur'an mentions that Allah manifested in a tree to commuicate with Moses!

Honestly, I don't know if that even makes any sense.

tret wrote:
If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????
I wonder whether you ever read the posts. I have posted several times and I post again!!

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

kmaherali - Please give any logical reason how do you conclude "Imam is Allah" from this quote of Nasir-Khusraw???

Like I said, you quote one thing, and imply something totally different.

[agakhani]

Name some ginans...

Sure, but will you please let me know which pirs or Syeds ginans are your looking for? any preferred subject?

[agakhani]

unlike yourself or some other members. You are in no place to judge anyone,

Tret,

Are you sure that the above sentence is written by you!!?

I have doubt in it because this is contrary statements between above sentence and in past one of your statements in which you judged and awarded not only one but three persons as a Hindus!!, who gave you authority to judge them?? brother "kahena aasan hai leking kar dikhana itna asan nahi!!"

[agakhani]

Ginans are great tradition, as MHI mentioned. One is not obliged to study them; but it's encouraged. I myself read the translation, when I can. But, if you imply that truth can be found only in ginans [like some members here claim], then I beg to differ.

Off course that is true! i.e. you can find all answers in ginans but not in Qasidas. period I, hope you have not forget about my open challenge which I posted little over then year ago and asked few questions, unfortunately nobody still has came forwards and find the answers for me either from Quran or from Qasidas!!! SO, LET ME REPEAT MY OLD FAVORITE SLOGAN HERE ;
"IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTION THEN GINANS HAS ANSWERS" !!!

[fayaz006]

KM wrote
[/quote]Fayaz can you provide Qur'anic references for the above.[/quote]

KM bhai and to all of my brothers and sisters Navroz and Chandraat Mubarak.

KM following are the Quranic references about eternal life. I want to mention that when Quran mentions heaven that for me is Eternal Life.

Surah 15 45 - 48
Surah 39 73 - 74
Surah 40 7 - 9

There are several others but i cant think of them on the top of my head. I have read about God's promise to man of Peace in Eternity in the Quran but nothing about animals.

Also read excerpts from the following book

The Animals Lawsuit Against Humanity
A Muslim Work Translated By A Rabbi
For A 14th Century Christian King
Translated by Rabbi Anson Laytner

Again the theme was since man was promised an afterlife his responsibility in the world is greater, than the beasts'.

[tret]

when Quran mentions heaven that for me is Eternal Life

Heavens and Earth in their literal sense means just that, sky/space/Asmaan/Sama' and Earth/Zameen/Ard. Esoterically, it refers to the world of Command [Heaven] and the world of Manifestation [Earth]. Refer to Ayat 7:54 that talks about creation of "Heavens" and "Earth". Apparently it refers to world of faith and not necessarily in its literal sense.

Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salam says:

"...the esoteric sense (batin) of the 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of religion (alam-i-din), whereas the exoteric sense (zahir) of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of the world (alam-i-dunya)"
-Imam Hazan ala-dhikrihi al-salam
(Nasir al-Din Tusi, Rawda-yi Taslim, transl. S. J. Badakhshani "The Paradise of Submission" P. 124)

I believe when you say Eternal Life, you are referring to Paradise and not Heaven.
Now, interpretation of paradise varies and is a whole other topic in itself.

[fayaz006]

Tret wrote

fayaz - I repeat again. Please read carefully.

My point wasn't to tell you the difference between monotheism or monorealism. I know they are different. But rather, my point was that Ismaili Islam isn't polytheism, as ismaili103 and others believe that there could be a multitude of Gods, same as hindus that have a god for everything. I hope this is clear to you now. And for your information, I had already read that article, thank you very much.

fayaz - No Imam has ever thought that Imam is Allah. When Imams in their sermons of recognitions uses phrases such as "I am the creator" or "I am the
First and the Last", etc... Please be careful, this doesn't imply that Imam is the Transcendent One/Supreme God [rather it's people like yourself and few members here who draw that conclusion]. Because The True Transcendent One is beyond existence and non-existence. It is The First that is the necessary and contingent existence and cause of all causes, and therefore, "The Creator and the sustainor" "The First and the Last [Awal and Akheer]" and other expressions as such. I am sure the same concept is explain in ginans...

Ismaili Doctrines/truth are not confined only in the ginans. Before, ginanic texts, Ismailis existed before. You didn't reply to my question of how ismaili philosophy evolved from the time of fatimid until now? How the concept of God has evolved from the fatimid until now?

Tret when i keep harping on the notion of monorealism vs monotheism, it is not to merely teach the difference between them. For reasons unknown to me, the Satpanth tradition in the South Asia has followed the doctrine of Monorealism since its inception. No Ismaili, to my knowledge has advocated Polytheism on this forum. However you have accused them of doing so. Also for obvious reasons the Fatimid exoteric treatises have always leaned towards Monotheism.

Look if you maintain that the Eternal Imam and God , who also defines Himself as Eternal are different, than you have got a major philosophical contradiction you need to solve. If you claim that the two are different than you have just assigned a partner to God, you have given God's creation the same property as God and maintained that they are different. This is why i keep mentioning Monotheism and Monorelaism are worlds apart.

However if you maintain that the Eternal Imam and Transient God are One in the same than you have maintained Tawheed and Ikhlas. Its up to you of what you may think of God. Whether he is singular being disconnected from his creation or whether he is ocean and present in every thing that we could perceive and not perceive.

Your question about whether our definition of God evolved, well did you read the article about MSMS and his definition of God? My opinion is that the esoteric definition of God has never really changed.

Also this point was made before that Ginans were written exclusively for Ismailis, therefore in my opinion you will have a greater chance on learning about the esoteric concepts of Ismailism from Ginans rather than Fatimid treatises.

Hope this helps

[fayaz006]

Heavens and Earth in their literal sense means just that, sky/space/Asmaan/Sama' and Earth/Zameen/Ard. Esoterically, it refers to the world of Command [Heaven] and the world of Manifestation [Earth]. Refer to Ayat 7:54 that talks about creation of "Heavens" and "Earth". Apparently it refers to world of faith and not necessarily in its literal sense.

Imam Hasan ala-dhikrihi al-salam says:

"...the esoteric sense (batin) of the 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of religion (alam-i-din), whereas the exoteric sense (zahir) of 'the heavens and the earth' is the realm of the world (alam-i-dunya)"
-Imam Hazan ala-dhikrihi al-salam
(Nasir al-Din Tusi, Rawda-yi Taslim, transl. S. J. Badakhshani "The Paradise of Submission" P. 124)

I believe when you say Eternal Life, you are referring to Paradise and not Heaven.
Now, interpretation of paradise varies and is a whole other topic in itself.

Tret to be honest i didn't consider it like that, for me Heaven and Paradise were one in the same. However this will be an interesting topic

[tret]

Tret wrote

fayaz - I repeat again. Please read carefully.

My point wasn't to tell you the difference between monotheism or monorealism. I know they are different. But rather, my point was that Ismaili Islam isn't polytheism, as ismaili103 and others believe that there could be a multitude of Gods, same as hindus that have a god for everything. I hope this is clear to you now. And for your information, I had already read that article, thank you very much.

fayaz - No Imam has ever thought that Imam is Allah. When Imams in their sermons of recognitions uses phrases such as "I am the creator" or "I am the
First and the Last", etc... Please be careful, this doesn't imply that Imam is the Transcendent One/Supreme God [rather it's people like yourself and few members here who draw that conclusion]. Because The True Transcendent One is beyond existence and non-existence. It is The First that is the necessary and contingent existence and cause of all causes, and therefore, "The Creator and the sustainor" "The First and the Last [Awal and Akheer]" and other expressions as such. I am sure the same concept is explain in ginans...

Ismaili Doctrines/truth are not confined only in the ginans. Before, ginanic texts, Ismailis existed before. You didn't reply to my question of how ismaili philosophy evolved from the time of fatimid until now? How the concept of God has evolved from the fatimid until now?

Tret when i keep harping on the notion of monorealism vs monotheism, it is not to merely teach the difference between them. For reasons unknown to me, the Satpanth tradition in the South Asia has followed the doctrine of Monorealism since its inception. No Ismaili, to my knowledge has advocated Polytheism on this forum. However you have accused them of doing so. Also for obvious reasons the Fatimid exoteric treatises have always leaned towards Monotheism.

Look if you maintain that the Eternal Imam and God , who also defines Himself as Eternal are different, than you have got a major philosophical contradiction you need to solve. If you claim that the two are different than you have just assigned a partner to God, you have given God's creation the same property as God and maintained that they are different. This is why i keep mentioning Monotheism and Monorelaism are worlds apart.

However if you maintain that the Eternal Imam and Transient God are One in the same than you have maintained Tawheed and Ikhlas. Its up to you of what you may think of God. Whether he is singular being disconnected from his creation or whether he is ocean and present in every thing that we could perceive and not perceive.

Your question about whether our definition of God evolved, well did you read the article about MSMS and his definition of God? My opinion is that the esoteric definition of God has never really changed.

Also this point was made before that Ginans were written exclusively for Ismailis, therefore in my opinion you will have a greater chance on learning about the esoteric concepts of Ismailism from Ginans rather than Fatimid treatises.

Hope this helps

No Ismaili, to my knowledge has advocated Polytheism on this forum. However you have accused them of doing so.

Well, I'd urge you to revist the post by ismaili103, and kmaherali, in that case!
I have also come across some post in the past in this forum that some members mentioned that vishnu is god of creator, and [sorry forgot the term] is the god of destroyer. There's a problem with this claim, because that would be pure polytheism.

Look if you maintain that the Eternal Imam and God , who also defines Himself as Eternal are different, than you have got a major philosophical contradiction you need to solve

What would be the problem?

The Command of God, which is HIS Essence encompasses the First contingent reality that is the cause of all causes. The Act of creation of The Supreme God/The Transcendent, in every awakening moment is complete. The agent of creation is other than the Transcendent, which is the Kingdom of God. You say, partnering to God, please tell me how? Trying to describe how/how God is, initself actually partnering, as you implied, Imam is Allah.

Supreme God/The Transcendent is beyond existence and non-existence and that's the only way to understand by double negation, which is in accordance to Surah Ikhlas.

Fayaz, I don't know if you realize it or not, the way you state that God is part of nature [or in other word nature itself], is the stand of pantheism and not monorealism. I'd suggest you re-read the article and contemplate.

[fayaz006]

What would be the problem?

The Command of God, which is HIS Essence encompasses the First contingent reality that is the cause of all causes. The Act of creation of The Supreme God/The Transcendent, in every awakening moment is complete. The agent of creation is other than the Transcendent, which is the Kingdom of God. You say, partnering to God, please tell me how? Trying to describe how/how God is, initself actually partnering, as you implied, Imam is Allah.

Supreme God/The Transcendent is beyond existence and non-existence and that's the only way to understand by double negation, which is in accordance to Surah Ikhlas.

Fayaz, I don't know if you realize it or not, the way you state that God is part of nature [or in other word nature itself], is the stand of pantheism and not monorealism. I'd suggest you re-read the article and contemplate.

The problem is you are assigning a property reserved for God to something other than God, in your case the Eternal Imam who is separated from God. You assigned everlasting eternity to the Eternal Imam, which is a property reserved for God alone. Also God does a pretty decent job of assigning properties to Himself in the Quran. That's the problem.

Whereas KM, Ismaili103 and Agakhani are assigning the property reserved for God to God. No distinction is maintained between the Eternal Imam and God in the Sathpant tradition. In my opinion that is perfect Ikhlas and Tawheed. The statement about God being Transcendent and being beyond Existence is something i do not agree with and ill just leave it there.

You mentioned the need to re read the article, i must say that I still have not changed my views. Ultimately i have mentioned to you that unless you study the Ginans that are being quoted by Km, Ismaili and Agakhani we would be going around in circles.

[tret]

What would be the problem?

The Command of God, which is HIS Essence encompasses the First contingent reality that is the cause of all causes. The Act of creation of The Supreme God/The Transcendent, in every awakening moment is complete. The agent of creation is other than the Transcendent, which is the Kingdom of God. You say, partnering to God, please tell me how? Trying to describe how/how God is, initself actually partnering, as you implied, Imam is Allah.

Supreme God/The Transcendent is beyond existence and non-existence and that's the only way to understand by double negation, which is in accordance to Surah Ikhlas.

Fayaz, I don't know if you realize it or not, the way you state that God is part of nature [or in other word nature itself], is the stand of pantheism and not monorealism. I'd suggest you re-read the article and contemplate.

The problem is you are assigning a property reserved for God to something other than God, in your case the Eternal Imam who is separated from God. You assigned everlasting eternity to the Eternal Imam, which is a property reserved for God alone. Also God does a pretty decent job of assigning properties to Himself in the Quran. That's the problem.

Whereas KM, Ismaili103 and Agakhani are assigning the property reserved for God to God. No distinction is maintained between the Eternal Imam and God in the Sathpant tradition. In my opinion that is perfect Ikhlas and Tawheed. The statement about God being Transcendent and being beyond Existence is something i do not agree with and ill just leave it there.

You mentioned the need to re read the article, i must say that I still have not changed my views. Ultimately i have mentioned to you that unless you study the Ginans that are being quoted by Km, Ismaili and Agakhani we would be going around in circles.

Eternal Imam who is separated from God...

Dear Fayaz,

I didn't imply that. You concluded this. Let me further elaborate...

The First contingent reality (The Intellect) is identified by the Command [This latter is the Essence of God/Transcendent]. This is Tawhid. The Intellect is not separate, but at the same time, it's not one with the Essence of God. That's the reason, when we say unity with the Divine, it's actually being identified with the Divine, and not dissolved or submerged into the Divine.

The Oneness is found in One. Think of it this way. The colour white[or Whiteness] is only found in a white object. So, the Universal Intellect HAS to be actualized and Perfect and realizes the True Essence of Almighty because it came into existence with NO mediation. And therefore, all the "Beautiful Names" and attributes such as Al-Rahman, Al-Qadir, Al-Rahim is referred to the secondary reality, and not to the Transcendent/Supreme God. Because, according to Surah Ikhlas, The Supreme God can not be the cause of something, nor it's caused by something. It's beyond Cause and effect and existence and non-existence. That's the position of Ismailis in recognition of Tawhid and Ikhlas.

In the Qur'an the properties [I'd rather call it Names] belongs to the Kingdome of God, that's the secondary reality [Wajib-ul-wujud], and not to Supreme God Himself. Because The Transcendent God is beyond the attributes of Al-Rahman and Al-Qadir. This is true Tawhid.


In Surah Ikhlas it says God is not born of anyone, nor anyone is born from God. In its literal sense it refers as Son and Father/Father and son; but in its esoteric exegesis, it means that The Supreme God is not cause of anything and nothing has caused God. The secondary contingent reality [The Intellect] and then the Potential perfect emanation from the Intellect [The Universal Soul] is the cause of causes and effects, and as such not the Transcendent God.

I can bet you, that in the Ginans the same philosophy is articulated.

[mazhar]

AuMessage ismaili103



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 143


Posted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:26 am Post subject:





POOR MAZHAR;

Yaa Ali Madad.

Study Ginans,

You have problems with Ginans of SYEDS, leave it, go and read GINANS of OFFICIAL PIRS. PIR SADARDIN, SHAMS, HASAN KABIRUDDIN, SAT GUR NUR ETC.

I'm giving you an equation which are simply you can find in GINANS OF OFFICIAL PIRS. Its up to you either accept it, research on it or critisize on it. " TO YOU YOURS, TO ME MINE"

The Equation is as follow:

ALI= VISHNU=IMAM= DIVINE NOOR= GOD
MUHAMMAD= BHRAMA= PIR=DIVINE NOOR= CREATOR= GOD
IMAM=GOD
PIR= GOD

This is the answer for your above statement in which you said " UNIVERSE IS CREATED BY GOD NOT BY MUHAMMAD AND HIS CO PARTNER"

Before making any statement do some Research on it.

OKIEE.... Heres a shocking statement for you.

In Ginans like ANANT AKHADO ,
PIR HASAN KABIRUDDIN CALLED HIM SELF "CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES"

NOT ONLY PIR HASSAN KABIRUDDIN, PIR SADARDIN AND SHAMS ALSO STATED IN THEIR GINAN THAT HE IS" CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSES."

" bechara MAZHAR AKA Dalal of currupt ITREB PAKISTAN, abhi tak to tumhara ALI ALLAH se pala nai chuta tha, yaha to MUHAMMAD ALLAH bhi samne agaya. "

.
REPLY TO ISMAILIIO3

You wrote pir Sadruddin, pir Shams, pir Hasan Kabiruddin created universe, give me ginanic references and post complete ginans in proof showing names of pirs.

With ref. to your equation, I am giving you mine,

ASHRAF = DIABLO
LUCIFER = SHANAAN
THEREFORE, SHNAAN = ASHRAF. How is that.

You called me dalal of ITREB Pak, Munnu you tell me who appointed these corrupt officials, Was your god unaware of these officials? In other words you are making me dalal of H I. You people call yourself marifati, look at your attitude,mentality ,and ethical values. With these values you are a RC teacher also, strange!!






.