84 lakh!

[agakhani]

As you mentioned in your above post 4 lakhs are human evolutions which means 4 lakhs are human chances.

The total 4 Lakhs counts are not only just human beings but that include mammal animals too, in short that all species who born in mother tomb.

Because as per my knowledge in Ginan Pirs mentioned the figure of 99 crore for bacterias ( jakh ), 56 crore for birds ( megh )...!

Good question! but JAKH, MEGH AND KINNARS were born before 4 yugas, that time called in ginanic language, KARAN AND KALAP unfortunately we do have more information on it!* but at that time other creatures mentioned above i.e. 84 lakhs different yonis were not even created.

* You can find this information in Purans with different names.

[ismaili103]

Agakhani bhai sometimes Ginan make me crazy ... I know We need deep knowledge to understand esoteric meanings hidden in Ginan ... One example is that pir mention in Ginans that about 4.3 million years ago amoeba evolve into sea animal which is fish and afterwards all animals, birds evolved but pir also mention that in the time of Karans and Kalaps there were creatures like jakh( bacteria ) megh (birds ) and Kinar( amphibians ) which were exist at the time of karans which means around 99 crore years ago...it makes me confused that birds, fish all creatures evolved in last 4.3 million years but Ginan also mention that they are also exist before JUGS... I know it has some hidden meaning, fact, history which i dont know or cant understand with my limited knowledge... But I know all the sayings of Pirs are 100% true ....

[kmaherali]

Actually we may not need to worry about lakh choraasi anymore. The Ginan book produced by Alwaez Kamaluddin/Zarina Kamaluddin has changed the term. Below are examples from at least 2 Ginans.

Ginan: Sat Gur padhaariyaa tame jaag jo:

Eji Noor Sat Gur bolea vinati,
saanbharo gat jamaath ji;
dasond dejo apannaa Gur mukhe,
to utaraso paele paar;
saachi sukarit laine chaal-jo,
nahi to paddaso lakh choraasi maan ji. 5

New Version:

Eji Noor Sat Gur bolea vinati,
saanbharo gat jamaath ji;
dasond dejo apannaa Gur mukhe,
to utaraso paele paar;
saachi sukarit laine chaal-jo,
nahi to paddaso ghor andhari maan ji. 5

Ginan: Sat gur saathe gothaddi kije

Jire vaalaa janamo janam ni dohaagann hoti
te sohaagann kidhi chhe saami
re vaalaa lakh choraasi naa bandh chhoddaavyaa
evaa mali-aa chhe antar jaami re vaalaa aaj hari 2

New Version:

Jire vaalaa janamo janam ni dohaagann hoti
te sohaagann kidhi chhe saami
re vaalaa janamo janam naa bandh chhoddaavyaa
evaa mali-aa chhe antar jaami re vaalaa aaj hari 2

Interesting! It is not a Hindu concept!

There is Farman of MSMS which states:

Evee reetey tamey pun khaavu tathaa bak bak karvu ey kaam karo to tamaaraa ma aney kutraa gadhedaa ma shu farak rahyo? Tyaarey lakhchoryasee naa feraa faree ne insaan thavaano shu faaydo? Jyaare insaan thayaa tey vakhat maa nahi chetyaa, ghadhedaa kutraaj rahee gayaa, lakhchoryasee ma padee hevaan thayaa aney maree gayaa tyaarey shu haasal? Mariney paachhaa kutraa thayaa temaa shu laabh? Tamey khyaal karo, tamaaraa aadam na avtaar ne odkho, insaan avtaar tarikey no tamaaro martabo samjo.

In this manner if you eat and talk, what is the difference between dogs and donkeys and yourselves. What is the benefit of being a human having undergone the lakh chorasi cycles?. Having attained the status of man you have not taken heed and remained like donkeys and dogs. Having died and fallen into the lakh chorasi, of what benefit it is? Of what benefit it is of becoming a dog again after death? Reflect and try to recognise your status as Adam, Understand your status of a human form.

[ismaili103]

Tariqha board and council already ruins the concept of youngsters by eliminatinig these terms from Ginans and banning whole Ginans e. g dasavtar

These kind of stuf widely occur in subcontinent even by last year many changes take place in Pakistan even in Giryawazari e. g
It was like
Noor mowlana shah karim al husaini hazir Imam gath jamat per reham kr or razi ho
Now its like that
Yaa mowla gath jamat pr reham kr or razi ho.

Another one is
Blah blah Rohani Mowlana Hazir Imam k Huzoor Ma Phonchi hai.

Now its like
Rohani k liye dua laai gai hai.

Why does they change that beacause Mullahs of pakistan doesnt like this at all....Lol

[agakhani]

Kbhai,

First of all, no body should change any words from ginans whether he is an alwaez or council!

Does it makes any difference to changing one words to the another??
Does it makes any difference if some one write using left hand and if some one using right hand? nope; same way changing the words does not make big differences.

lakh choraasi = ghor andhari
Lakh chorasi = Janojanam

Now back to the your above post as a long time Gujarati language scholar I do not see any big differences in the meaning of above words! and also I do not find in above ginanic verses that we do not have to worry about Lakh Chorasi cycle!! anyone can take the meaning the way they like but outcome remains always same.

To me 'Ghor Andhari' is an alternative soft word in replacement of Hard word 'Lakh Chorasi' but the meaning remains the same.

Same way the word 'Janmojanam' : JANAM AFTER JANAM: BIRTH AFTER ANOTHER BIRTH! it also directly support word "Lakh chorasi"


"Chalo dil ko behlane ke liye khayal achha hai"

But in my opinion only changing the words does not mean we do not have to worry about Lakh Chorasi cycle. if you do wrong deeds then you have to be ready to be penalized and the penalty is you have to take another birth!. For a soul's safety just do the good deeds! that is as simple as this rather then looking alternative escapes!!

[agakhani]

Agakhani bhai sometimes Ginan make me crazy ... icon_eek.gif I know We need deep knowledge to understand esoteric meanings hidden in Ginan ...

It is true that ginans are very hard to understand and very hard to find out esoteric meanings hidden in ginans but we should not ignore ginans because ginans are created and composed that way if they reach in hand of non Ismailis it does not MAKE BIG harm because they can not understand it properly either.

Now back to Karan and Kalap what is it?:-

I personally asked same question to Rai Abu Ali Saheb in Austin, TX, he told me brief history of evolution and told me what is 3 Karans, but it was very short info so, I started to Google around and started to find in evolution books and other religious literature, unfortunately I couldn't find many evolution theory books because there are not many, whatever I found were not matching with Ismaili ginanic literature.

For an instant example "Karans" are not mentioned in Hindu theory, they have mentioned "Manvantar" instead, the meaning of Manvantar is distance between two Manu ( Hindu believes that Manu was the first man on earth and after him human being called "Manavi" same like "AADMI CALLED AFTER H. AADAM ) but "Manvantar" is not mentioned in our Ginanic literature but Kalaps are mentioned, therefore I suggest you to read 'Muman Chaitmani' and try to understand it propely and I think you will be able to understand after some time.


To understand ginans properly you have to have patience, time and interest to lean more and more from ginans your abaove sacrifice won't go fruitless, I challenge It!!!!

[kmaherali]

Kbhai,

First of all, no body should change any words from ginans whether he is an alwaez or council!

Does it makes any difference to changing one words to the another??
Does it makes any difference if some one write using left hand and if some one using right hand? nope; same way changing the words does not make big differences.

Abhai,
First you are saying no one should change the words and then you are saying that it does not make any difference if the meaning is the same? So what are you saying?

Of course it makes a lot of difference if the words are changed? Would you change the words in a Farman?

Below are some more changes for your information.

Ginan: Saami raja jampudipe umaayo ji

Verses 4, 6 and 7

Saami raajaa lakh choraasi feraa ttaallajo
moman naa jiv sadhaari 4

Saami raajaa Mach, Korabh, Vaaraa, Narshinh
Vaaymann, Farsi-raam, Sri Raam tun 6

Saami raajaa Kaan-ji, Budh, das-me Naklanki huvaa
chaddiyaa tun Sri Islaam Shaahaa 7

New version

Saami raajaa jivnaa feraa ttaallajo
moman naa jiv sadhaari 4

Saami raajaa Adam Nuha Ibrahim
Nure Musao Isa tun 6

Saami raajaa nure Muhammad te nur Ali Murtaza
chaddiyaa tun Sri Islaam Shaahaa 7

Ginan: Ghar sar vadhaayun more liyo

Eji Ghar sar vaadhaaiyun Shaah more liyo avtaar,
laakh choraasi Shaah tun jiven-jo daataar ... ...

New version:

Eji Ghar sar vaadhaaiyun Shaah more liyo avtaar,
Anant KaroddShaah tun jiven-jo daataar ... ...

Ginan: Hardam dhariyen dhyaan

Eji Nishaan khoddo to didaar paamo ji,
mitt jaave choraasi naa chen - ajampiyaa tannu 6

New version

Eji Nishaan khoddo to didaar paamo ji,
mitt jaave janam naa chen - ajampiyaa tannu 6

Ginan: Kaaya maaya chee din chaar

Amar huaanaa kiaare bhed,
laakhre choraasi no ttaalio fer 6

New version

Amar huaanaa kiaare bhed,
janamo janamno ttaalio fer 6

[kmaherali]

Missionary AbuAly's thinking on this subject is at:

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/ginanhist.html

Missionary AbuAly says in the article:

"In the beginning of the second Yug Treta, man evolved from ape."

In Anant Akhado (Ashaji) it is stated:

Aashaajee Machh rupe daannav maaryaa
teno ant jaanno jee
payaar maanhe ramee-jamee aavyaa
daannav maaryaa tyaan...................Haree anant..404

Oh Lord In the form of half fish and half human, the Lord slayed
the demon
that was his(the demon's) end
The Lord came into the undersurface mysteriously
and slayed the demon there and there only
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Sankhaa-sur to saaher pettho
toe na melyo tunhee jee
maaree daannav ved-j vaaryaa
rakheesar gher vadhaayun................Haree anant..405

Oh Lord Sankha-sur was in the depths of the ocean
even then you did not abandon his pursuit
Having slayed the demon the Lord recovered the vedas
entirely
and the homes of the devotees became happy and joyous
Haree You are eternal...

From the above verses we can conclude that humans indeed existed during the Karta Yuga. The vedas were recovered. In fact Karta Yuga is considered to be the Golden Age when great scientific and intellectual progress was made. The vedas were written during that period.

In another Ginan: Pahela Karta Jug Manhe, Pir Sadardeen says:

ejee pahelaa kartaa jugmaa(n) he sonaanaare ghatt shaahnaa sonaanaare paatt
sonaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree narsha(n)g jee raay
gur bheermaajee nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....1

During the first era of Kartaa, the Path was golden and the Lord's stage or'paat' (as in ghatpaat) was also golden. Lord Narsang was seated on a golden throne as the king. Through the supplications and invocations of the Guide, the Creator (Prophetic Light), the place was decorated and was shining with glory. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.

In his Memoirs MSMS says: "But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us." This suggests that man did not evolve from ape and was a special creation capable of knowing God.

I think the missionary is mixing the history of evolution with the narrative of Das Avtaar.

[agakhani]

First you are saying no one should change the words and then you are saying that it does not make any difference if the meaning is the same? So what are you saying?

Off course I will stay what I wrote above: whoever made the change
to Lakh Chorasi to Ghor Aandhari and Lakh Chorasi to Janmojanam it doesn't make any difference at least for a Gujarati Scholar and for those who knows the real meaning of above two words to me it is same like Lakh chorasi. period.

BTW: Can I ask you this:-


1, What are "JIV NA FERA" is not this words point out about Lakh chorasi? sure it does!!
3, Can you tell me what is the different between Janam Janam na chen and Lakh Chorasi? does not it indicate directly about "Lakh chorasi"? sure it does.
3, Ginan mentioned by you: "Saami raja jampudipe umaayo ji" Kaya maya chhe din char and Hardam dhariye dhyan can you tell me who made those changes? Did they have taken permission from MHI?

To me again the word replaced above are nothing else but a soft version of the hard version word "LAKH CHORASI"
"GHUMA FIRA KE BAAT VOHI PE AA JATI HAI" KBHAI
CHALO DIL KO BEHALA NE KE LIYE YEH KHEL BHI ACHHA HAI!!

[ismaili103]

If we read Either ALI or HARI and BHRAMA or MOHAMMAD..meaning have same but no one has any authority to change words from Ginan except Imam and Pir ....so if Ali is written so read it like that Nd if HARI is written so read Hari...

[agakhani]

Missionary AbuAly says in the article:

"In the beginning of the second Yug Treta, man evolved from ape."

Lot of scholars says and believes that human being has started only 7000 years ago? not even Karta Yug, Treta Yog or Dwapar Yug!!!

what would you say to them? Kbhai!

By the way if we read 'DAS AVTARS' and some ginans on Prahlad then we can find that Prahlad was not in human shape but he was deer, because human being was not evolved yet but only some insects, birds and some animal were roaming on earth, human being still has to wait.
-"એજી, પ્રહલાદ ની માં એ તેને વનમાં જનમ્યો" ****
Eji, Prahalad ni maye tene vanma janmyo"
Now let me ask you this? if Prahald was in human being and as per the story of Prahlad was son of a King harna Kans, now question arise here why the queen went in forest and gave birth over there in jungle? Did she kicked out from palace? then why she went in forest and gave birth to Prahalad in forest? nope, she didn't kicked out from palace nor she was living in palace because she was deer and deer lives in jungle, it is a common sense and she was living in jungle because she was a deer. deer doesn't live in king palace.

This also proves that: the first man evolved on this earth was the time of 'VAMAN AVATAR". and Rai Abu Ali is right.


Who killed Harna Kansh?

The answer is a lion, and as per the Das avtar; Harna kans was killed by a lion because harana ( deer) was deer and animal (lion) kills animal.

Forget about Abu ali and ginans just for now
Now I am giving you some proofs from Hindu Scriptures too :-


હિંદુશાસ્ત્રોમાં વીષ્ણુના દશાવતારોનું વર્ણન જોવા મળે છે. આપણે વીષ્ણુના દરેક અવતારોને નીચે મુજબ સાંકળી શકીએ.

1,મત્સ્યાવતાર – જળચર સૃષ્ટીનો ઉદભવ
Matsya Avatar :Fish, life in water

2,કુર્માવતાર – પેટે સરકીને ચાલતાં પ્રાણીઓનો ઉદભવ
Kurmavtar: Insect, germs bacteria

3,વરાહાવતાર – પૃષ્ઠવંશી પ્રાણીઓનો ઉદભવ
Varahvatar: vertebrate animals

4,નૃસીંહાવતાર – ચોપગાં પ્રાણીઓનો ઉદભવ
Nrushinhavatar: quadruped animals.

5,વામનાવતાર – પ્રોઝીમીઅન પ્રાણીઓનો ઉદભવ
Vamanavatar: prosimians animals , ape First Human being.

6,પરશુરામાવતાર – ઓસ્ટ્રેલોપીથેક્સ કપીઓનો ઉદભવ
Parshuramavatar: Australopithecus (APE) humans)


7,રામાવતાર – હોમો ઈરેક્ટસ માનવોનો ઉદભવ
Ramavatar: Homo Eracts human being.

8,કૃષ્ણાવતાર – હોમો સેપીયંસ (આધુનીક માનવો) નો ઉદભવ
Krishnavatar: Homo sapience , Modern Human being.

9,બુધ્ધાવતાર – માનવોનો વીકાસ
Budhhavatar: advanced Human being)

10,કલ્કી અવતાર – સુપર મનુષ્યોનો ઉદભવ.
Kalkivatar: Super Human being.

Kbhai,

I, found the above information from various Hindu scriptures, which is matching with our ginan and the evolution chart of Rai Abu Ali , please read Abu ali's evolution chart one more time and compare that with the theory of Hindu scriptures shown above ! its clearly shows that there were no human being evolved yet i.e. during the time Karta Yuga.

[kmaherali]

what would you say to them? Kbhai!]

I would say to them that they are mistaken.

Eji, Prahalad ni maye tene vanma janmyo"
Now let me ask you this? if Prahald was in human being and as per the story of Prahlad was son of a King harna Kans, now question arise here why the queen went in forest and gave birth over there in jungle? Did she kicked out from palace? then why she went in forest and gave birth to Prahalad in forest? nope, she didn't kicked out from palace nor she was living in palace because she was deer and deer lives in jungle, it is a common sense and she was living in jungle because she was a deer. deer doesn't live in king palace.

There is nothing unusual about the queen giving birth in the jungle. In fact that is the sign of the greatness of Pahelaaj - that his birth took place in unusual circumstances and he was protected by the Lord, just as the birth of Jesus.

Infact the entire circumstances of Pahelaaj's birth are given in the Ginan: Hojire bhaai Pahelaaj raaja ni maata e kunvar. It can be referenced at: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3876

Please read the whole Ginan and hopefully it will be obvious that he was indeed a human being!

Below is the verse from Ginan: Tajio Sang Ku Sangia

eji aage juone pahelaaj hotaa, tene taat tajio tat kaall re
thambh mahethi narsang pragatiyaa
tene sambhaariaa pure vis vaas re.....................tajio...2

Long ago there lived a personality called Pahelaaj, who gave up his own father there and then(tat kaar); from the pillar (thambh) emerged Narsinh, who came to the help of Pahelaaj who had remembered Him in full faith.

Explanation
-----------

There once lived a great 'sant', saintly personality called Harnaakans. To reward his "bandagi", the Lord asked him as to what he wanted. And he responded by saying: "I should not be killed during the day or night, neither on this earth nor in water and without the infliction of any weapon". In other words he wanted to stay in this world as an immortal being. To fulfil his promises, the Lord bestowed upon him as per his request. Realising that he was beyond death, he began to misuse his power.

He had a son, who fortunately was very pious and religious. Right from very young age and notwithstanding his father's warning, he always said that he is going to pray to Allah. Harnaakans was furious with his son, and therefore decided to extinguish his Imaan.

He built an iron pillar and made it red hot and told his son that if you really have faith in him, than embrace this pillar and let me see if your Lord is going to help you. Pahelaaj was about 8 years old then, and naturally he got frightened. However, to help him, the Lord sent
an ant which was moving over this pillar. When Pahelaaj saw this, he thought that if an ant can move on the red hot pillar, why not me? And therefore he embraced the pillar. As soon as he did it, the pillar burst open and 'Narsinh'(a manifestation of the Lord , half human and
half lion) burst out. He took Harnaakans(it was at dawn or dusk at that moment and therefore it was neither day nor night) and lifted him off the ground(therefore it was not on earth or in water) and tore him apart with his claws(and therefore he did not use any weapon). Thus ended the life of this 'daint', demon Harnaakans.

The above clearly indicates that Pahelaaj was a human. Infact the Ginans refer to him as the Mukhi/saviour of five crores. He is also referred to as bhagat (the pious one).

In one Mehmani MSMS referred to a murid as having the status of Pahelaaj! So he was not a non-human.

[agakhani]

Kbhai,

You mean all the scholars who says that human being started after H. Adam are mistaking? according them including Islamic and Biblical scholars believes that H. Adam( the ancestors of current human beings) was born around 7000 years ago and since then human being is living on this earth!!

I think you should read " EVOLUTION THEORY" and Das Avatar concepts again if you have not read yet ( which I doubt though) and compare with what I wrote above that Human beings were not present during first 2 yugas.

I would like to have some more evidences which help me to better understanding your POV, about first human being's appearance on earth, so please provide it.

[agakhani]

Can any one clarify here that there are 84 lakh cycles of evolution but what are 84 cycle ??? Are evolution is distributed into 84 species with 100000 evolution in each ...???

For your above question I will put one ginanic verses from "TO MUNIVAR BAHI"


તો મુનીવર ભાઈ, ત્યાં ચોરાસી લાખ અવતાર એક એક જીવને આપસુ,
અને તે માહે માણસના ચોરાસી અવતાર।
તેમાં એ એક લાખ અવતાર તે તો પામર જીવના,
અને તે કેડે તે એક મનખો અવતાર રે. ..............295
પીર સદરદીન

TO MUNIVAR BAHI, TYA CHORASI LAKH AVATAR EK EK JIV NE AAPSU,
ANE TE MAHE MANAS NA CHORASI AVATAR,
TE MAHE EK LAKH AVATAR TE TO PAMAR JIVAN,
ANE TE KEDE TE EK MANKHO AVATAR RE.......... 295
Pir Sadardin.

Meaning:

Oh brothers, we will give 8.4 millions births to a single soul
and in these (births) 84 births are (reserved) for human being.
in these all births One hundred thousand births will be lower states
and after these (lower ) birth the soul will receive as one human births.

Glossary:
Manas = Human being
Pamar Jiv= lower births then humans, it may be snack, alligator, monkey, tree or you name it!.
Mankho avatar= birth as a human.

[ismaili103]

Thankyou Ashraf Bhai
BTW I got Moman chtavni from your given link...can you plzz help me to convert it into english... I cant read Gujarati.

[agakhani]

BTW I got Moman chtavni from your given link...can you plzz help me to convert it into english... I cant read Gujarati.

Be honest with you, I think KBHAI, Admin or other readers can do that job lot better than me because I, think even if I try to translate in English then it would not be a right justice to that important granth! because there are many events, plots and things which are very hard to understand even for me.

I think your dad or mom ( I know they know Gujarati very well ) can read it for you and if you find any words which you all can not understand then you can e-mail to me and I will explain it to you.

[agakhani]

I have list of them." I assume your assertion is that infact Ginans are Bhajans.

Aghakhani, tamey Gujrati aney Hindi janno chho. Tamey Gita pasand chhey. Agar tamara gharey Gita hoya tou pahla bhaag na aakhri paragraph wancho, tiyan lakhel chhey,

BE BE LOCHAN SARVE NEY VIDIYA LOCHAN TRANN
SAPAT LOCHAN DHARM NA TAMEY JUOU VICHARI JANN

Actually some what that is true that ginans and Bhjan are almost same and Pir Sadardin composed many ginans on Hindu theory taking it from Hindu believes what Khoja's ancestors were believing at that time. therefore we finds many Hindu devi devatas names in our ginans like Brahma, Mahesh, Shiv, Krishna e.t.c. but one thing is 100% sure that none of our pirs has tell us to worship Hindu devi devtas!!

Yes I have Gita in my library along with many other religious literature Bible, avastha and even purans!! Gita is a great books but that does not mean it is superior then Ismaili literature.

ગંગા બનારસ!! મત જાઓ ગોદાવરી,
રામ ભજન અબ કૈસા!!???
"અલી" અધો રૂપ ભયો રે નારાયણ!
જૈસી કારની ફળ તૈસા,

Pir Hasan Kabirdin.

Meaning:-

Do not go Ganga, Banaras even Godawari ( to make your body clean )
Why we have to worship Rama now?
Ali (s.a.) is already here as a God
what ever your deeds will be, you will rewarded on your deeds
"As you sow, so you reap!"

BTW:- Hindu Bhajans are telling the same as our ginans telling us , the main reason I mentioned about Hindu Bhajans was; if Hindu literature can recite in JK, and Ismailis ginans recites in Hindu temples then why not other holy books from different religions can not recite in JK including Quran?

[Admin]

One should not confuse "Hindu" and "Indian". These are words with different definition.

[agakhani]

The word "Hindu" and the word "India" are given by Persian and Britishers because they could not pronounce the real word "Sindhu" and "Bharat" in their native language. The originally word Bharat name after the Kind Bharat.

It is said that the Persians used to refer to the Indus river as Sindhu. Indus is a major river which flows partly in India and partly in Pakistan. However, the Persians could not pronounce the letter "S" correctly in their native tongue and mispronounced it as "H." Thus, for the ancient Persians, the word "Sindhu" became "Hindu." The ancient Persian Cuneiform inscriptions and the Zend Avesta refer to the word "Hindu" as a geographic name rather than a religious name. When the Persian King Darious 1 extended his empire up to the borders of the Indian subcontinent in 517 BC, some people of the Indian subcontinent became part of his empire and army. Thus for a very long time the ancient Persians referred to these people as "Hindus". The ancient Greeks and Armenians followed the same pronunciation, and thus, gradually the name stuck.

The word "Hindu" is not the name of any religion!! neither it is a Sanskrit word, nor is this word found in any of the native dialects and languages of India. It should be noted that "Hindu" is NOT a religious word at all. There is no reference of the word "hindu" in the Ancient Vedic Scriptures.