Hasan ibn Ali Questions

EsotericKungFu · Post by **EsotericKungFu** » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:10 pm

I know that Hasan ibn Ali is not an Imam in Nizari Ismaili tradition. My first question is why is this? Secondly he is considered as the 5th Caliph by many Sunni and Twelver Shia Muslims before his Caliphate was taken by Muawiyah ibn Abi Sufyan. So would it be accurate to say that he was the Caliph while his brother was the Imam? And should he still be praised and be honored as a member of Ahl al-Bayt? Thank you for your responses in advance and helping me on my search for greater understanding and knowledge

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:38 am

There have been discussions on this issue in this forum before.

Below are the links

Doctrines --> Why was hazrat hasan not made imam even though he was older

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 61&start=0

Doctrines --> Hazar Imam to manifest as "The Mahdi" for other Sh

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 74&start=0

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:29 am

Ismailis also counting Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali(s.a.) as a member of AHL-AL-BAYT family and respect him being a member of Ahl-Al-bayt,
Ismailis believes Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali as a 2nd pir after Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) because Prophet Mohammad had appointed him for pir post.
Why he was not Imam ? simple answer bro, our 1st Imam Hazarat Ali (s.a.) appointed Hazarat Imam Hussain(s.a.) as his successor( Imam)
and as a second Imam and as per our Ismaili tradition there is not possible to have two Imams at same time, that is why we do not believe Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali as our Imam.
it is true that he was 5 th caliph but his caliphat was lasted only six month.
For more detail visit the link above.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:36 am

Ismailis also counting Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali(s.a.) as a member of AHL-AL-BAYT family and respect him being a member of Ahl-Al-bayt,
Ismailis believes Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali as a 2nd pir after Prophet Mohammad (s.a.) because Prophet Mohammad had appointed him for pir post.
Why he was not Imam ? simple answer bro, our 1st Imam Hazarat Ali (s.a.) appointed Hazarat Imam Hussain(s.a.) as his successor( Imam)
and as a second Imam and as per our Ismaili tradition there is not possible to have two Imams at same time, that is why we do not believe Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali as our Imam.
it is true that he was 5 th caliph but his caliphat was lasted only six month.
For more detail visit the link above.

Just to add further.....There is a difference between Pir and Prophet, A prophet is the one who receives divine messages from allah[swt] where as the job of Pir is to preach what is already revealed and thats what H.Hassan[as] did !

EsotericKungFu · Post by **EsotericKungFu** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:03 pm

Forgive me for my limited understanding

I am a teenager with no connections to any muslims (sunni, shia, ismaili, or other). My knowledge comes from reading of books (Templars and the Assassins among others) Wikipedia articles, and the things I have read on this site.

So Hazarat Hasan Ibn Ali(s.a.) is a Pir (which is a preacher/spreader of what has been revealed) and he is considered caliph (for the short time he was caliph). He is not however an Imam (but is an Imam in Twelver Shia).

Also if you could point me in the right direction for my next few questions that would be great.

Are the Imams infallible (without flaw)?

In Twelver Shia they believe that there Imam who is in occultation is the Messiah (al-Madhi?) and will return at the end of days to lead there people, is there a similar idea in Nizari Ismaili?

Hazrat Imam Shah Karim al-Hussayni Aga Khan the fourth is the Imam of the time, I have heard that he is the speaking Quran, In a way is this similar to the way Twelvers have hadith about the sayings of there Imam's as a way of clarifiying and interpreting the Quran?

Thank you for your help all of you in my continued search for knowledge

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:21 am

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Just to add further.....There is a difference between Pir and Prophet, A prophet is the one who receives divine messages from allah&#91;swt&#93; where as the job of Pir is to preach what is already revealed and thats what H.Hassan&#91;as&#93; did !

Thanks for pointing out this differences Shiraz. You are absolutely right.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:27 am

shiraz.virani wrote:Just to add further.....There is a difference between Pir and Prophet, A prophet is the one who receives divine messages from allah[swt] where as the job of Pir is to preach what is already revealed and thats what H.Hassan[as] did !

The Prophets role is universal, that is, it is directed to humanity at large. The Pir’s role on the other hand is restricted to Ismailis only. When I use the word Pir here, it is meant in its technical sense of being appointed by the Imam. But in terms of spiritual elevation both statuses are equivalent and have the capacity for Divine inspiration.

Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet and a Pir. There were Pirs before the Prophet as well.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:29 am

EsotericKungFu wrote:Thank you for your help all of you in my continued search for knowledge

If you read the links in my earlier message, you will get your answers because these issues have been discussed before...

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:52 am

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Are the Imams infallible &#40;without flaw&#41;?

As per Ismaili Tariqa and most other Shia sect also believes that Imam is always sinless, Imam does not make mistakes , sins and other deeds human being makes easily because Imam has Noorani power we can call here 'NOOR', noor which directly personify from Allah.
I would also like to give some more definition and clarification about pir (Al-Mustwad) because you seems to me that you are taking interest in Ismaili sect.

1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities.
2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family.
3, Both should be present on earth all the time.
4, Pirs and Imams( next successor of Imam) always appointed by current Imam of the time.
5, There were some pirs in past who were not appointed as pir, they didn't had "PIRATAN" post but their Ginans/poems/qasidas are still spoken in our Jamat Khanas. These type pirs usally call SYEDS.
6, During the time of our Imam name Mustansiribillah and after our Pir Tajdin a book name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was our pir
7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person and knowledgeable person.
8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter
in Arabic alphabets. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir.
9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord
Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too
many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki,Punjabi, Sindhi and other Indo languages for above reference.
10, Imam who recites Namaz/Salat in mosque does not have any NOORANI power.
11, Some time our imam (like our current Imam) keeps both post in him (piratan and Imamat).

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In Twelver Shia they believe that their Imam who is in occultation is the Messiah &#40;al-Madhi?&#41; and will return at the end of days to lead there people, is there a similar idea in Nizari Ismaili?

Not only Twelver Shia but almost all religions belives that one of day their Imam/God will return on the earth and will destroy devil forces.
Twelves Believes that their hidden imam Mehdi will come back, Hindus belives that their 'TENTH NAKALANKI AVATAAR"(TENTH INCARNATION OF LORD VISHNU) will come back and destroy devil forces, Christian believes that Prophet Isa will come back, Jews believe Prophet Moses will come back and so on.
We Ismaili believes ( and our ginans are loaded about this) that one of day our Imam will come forward and he will kill 'DAIT KALINGA' a devil force from China and he will establish peace on the earth, we call this 'ZAHURAAT' of our Imam.

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Hazrat Imam Shah Karim al-Hussayni Aga Khan the fourth is the Imam of the time, I have heard that he is the speaking Quran, In a way is this similar to the way Twelvers have hadith about the sayings of there Imam's as a way of clarifiying and interpreting the Quran?

Yes you can say our Imam Shah Karim as speaking Quran but that does not mean we do not believe in Quran-E-Sharif and Hadiths
Quran is not easy to understand and not easy to make interpretation of it, it is almost 1400 years has been passed and there are many translations and interpretations of Quran had been made by many Scholars, Aaalims, Mullas, Dais but if you compare their interpretation with other interpretor it will never match now whom would you believe? I mean whose interpreted and translated Quran you will accept? It is very tough choice. so we need the reliable and trust able individual whom we can accept and believe that his interpretation of Quran will right we call this person RASHIKHUL FIL ILM
Allah say in Quran that only 'RASHIKHUN FIL ILM" will understand Quran better and our Imam is Rashikul fil Ilm as per our tradition.
I think my this post will answer all of your question.

EsotericKungFu · Post by **EsotericKungFu** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 11:38 am

agakhani wrote:
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Are the Imams infallible &#40;without flaw&#41;? 
 As per Ismaili Tariqa and most other Shia sect also believes that Imam is always sinless, Imam does not make mistakes , sins and other deeds human being makes easily because Imam has Noorani power we can call here 'NOOR', noor which directly personify from Allah. I would also like to give some more definition and clarification about pir (Al-Mustwad) because you seems to me that you are taking interest in Ismaili sect. 1, Pir and Imam are two different authorities. 2, Both should be from AHLE-BAIT family. 3, Both should be present on earth all the time. 4, Pirs and Imams( next successor of Imam) always appointed by current Imam of the time. 5, There were some pirs in past who were not appointed as pir, they didn't had "PIRATAN" post but their Ginans/poems/qasidas are still spoken in our Jamat Khanas. These type pirs usally call SYEDS. 6, During the time of our Imam name Mustansiribillah and after our Pir Tajdin a book name "PANDIYATE JAWAMARDI" written by Imam Mustansiribillah was our pir 7, PIR is persian word and it means, old respectable/reputable person and knowledgeable person. 8. There is no 'Pir' word in Arabic language, because there is no " P" letter in Arabic alphabets. You can use Al-Mustwad instead of Pir. 9, In Khoja tradition they believe that pir is apeareance from Lord Brahma, and Imam's apeareace is from Lord Vishnu. There are too many Ginans on this topic in Gujarati, Khojki,Punjabi, Sindhi and other Indo languages for above reference. 10, Imam who recites Namaz/Salat in mosque does not have any NOORANI power. 11, Some time our imam (like our current Imam) keeps both post in him (piratan and Imamat). 
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In Twelver Shia they believe that their Imam who is in occultation is the Messiah &#40;al-Madhi?&#41; and will return at the end of days to lead there people, is there a similar idea in Nizari Ismaili? 
 Not only Twelver Shia but almost all religions belives that one of day their Imam/God will return on the earth and will destroy devil forces. Twelves Believes that their hidden imam Mehdi will come back, Hindus belives that their 'TENTH NAKALANKI AVATAAR"(TENTH INCARNATION OF LORD VISHNU) will come back and destroy devil forces, Christian believes that Prophet Isa will come back, Jews believe Prophet Moses will come back and so on. We Ismaili believes ( and our ginans are loaded about this) that one of day our Imam will come forward and he will kill 'DAIT KALINGA' a devil force from China and he will establish peace on the earth, we call this 'ZAHURAAT' of our Imam. 
Code: Select all
Hazrat Imam Shah Karim al-Hussayni Aga Khan the fourth is the Imam of the time, I have heard that he is the speaking Quran, In a way is this similar to the way Twelvers have hadith about the sayings of there Imam's as a way of clarifiying and interpreting the Quran? 
 Yes you can say our Imam Shah Karim as speaking Quran but that does not mean we do not believe in Quran-E-Sharif and Hadiths Quran is not easy to understand and not easy to make interpretation of it, it is almost 1400 years has been passed and there are many translations and interpretations of Quran had been made by many Scholars, Aaalims, Mullas, Dais but if you compare their interpretation with other interpretor it will never match now whom would you believe? I mean whose interpreted and translated Quran you will accept? It is very tough choice. so we need the reliable and trust able individual whom we can accept and believe that his interpretation of Quran will right we call this person RASHIKHUL FIL ILM Allah say in Quran that only 'RASHIKHUN FIL ILM" will understand Quran better and our Imam is Rashikul fil Ilm as per our tradition. I think my this post will answer all of your question.

Thank you for the information, what is a Dai in relation to the Imamate (I have seen that Hasan I Sabah was a Dai is this true?) So your Imam that is the Messianic figure, is he one who has already come and will return or is he someone in the line who has not yet come? Also the Prophet Isa (PBUH) is he a messianic figure (as in Sunni Islam *from my understanding*) or is he just a prophet? Thank you for your answers everyone

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:10 pm

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The Pir’s role on the other hand is restricted to Ismailis only.

Karim,
There were few other sects had pirs role in past and there are few other sects still have their own pirs at right now and they are not Ismailis. for example some HINDUS TRIBE has their own pirs at current time, there are few Muslim sects still have their own pir at present time. It is true that they are very little in population wise therefore they are not coming in light much but that does not mean that PIR'S role is just restricted for Ismaiis only as you wrote in your above post.
lets start with past pirs: IN HINDUS
Some HINDUS used to be worshiped and they are still worshiping PIR RAMDEV'S DARGAH in Rajshtan , PIR PITHORO DARGAH in Rapar, Kuchh, Gujarat, Pir Mamdev e.t.c. these dargahs were used to be worshiped and still are worshipping at current time by HINDUS because all these were their pirs means they had PIRs role in their religion.
NOW IN MUSLIMS:
Pir SatGur Noor Dargah in Navsari and pir Imamshah Dargah in Pirana, Gujarat and Mushayakh Shah Dargah in Ahmadabad were used to be worshiped and still worshiping by Muslims and THEY ARE NOT ISMAILIS any more they used to but they are Sunnis and Ishnashris right now.Some Sunnis sect also had their own pirs near Delhi in past.
This is not it buddy, but do you know that there are few other sects still have their current pirs at present time? and they are not Ismailis!!!! they are Muslims.
In North Gujarat there is one Muslim sect name 'JAFARI MASHAYAKHI MOMIN SECT' has their own current pir and his name is "HAJARPIR SAYED MOHAMMAD MUJAHID HUSSAIN BAVA SAHEB" and he is still alive before him his father was their pir and he will appoint some one as a pir before his death..
There is one sect in Hinduism this sect has their own pir, sorry I forget the name of this sect. I can find out if you realy like to know the name.

Making this post short Karim, I would say PIR role is still kicking and it is not restricted for Ismailis only other sects had pir role in past and some non-ismaili sect still have their own pirs at present time.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:05 pm

Totally agree with you....and as i said earlier there is a difference between a pir and prophet ...........the last prophet that existed on earth and was the seal bearer was rasool[saw] , after the message was completed and islam as religion was chosen for mankind the job of passing the teaching of rasool[saw] was in the hands of ahle bait......and both the brothers were given a huge responsibility....where one was chosen as a guide, the other was given the responsibility to spread faith and teaching of rasool[saw]

Pirs never recieved any revelation and still dont because the message already was revealed and that was "ISLAM"

and yes i totally agree with Meherali that rasool[saw] was both a prophet and pir [preacher].............the best teacher of islam

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:21 pm

agakhani wrote:Making this post short Karim, I would say PIR role is still kicking and it is not restricted for Ismailis only other sects had pir role in past and some non-ismaili sect still have their own pirs at present time.

Shiraz,

I am aware of the title of Pir being used by other sects and tariqahs and that's whay I stated "When I use the word Pir here, it is meant in its technical sense of being appointed by the Imam."

The Pirs who are appointed by the Imams are very different than other Pirs in the sense that they have a permanent living role as opposed to temporary or legendary roles in other situations.

In fact I would say from a spiritual perspective the role of the Pir is more important than that of the Prophet becuase of the permanent nature of the office. Outward prominence of the Prophets does not imply their inner superiority.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:08 am

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The Pir’s role on the other hand is restricted to Ismailis only.

Karim, Thanks for clarification but you didn't give me answer of your above post , you wrote here that pir's role is restricted to ismailis only!!!! Please read my above post ( I spend almost hour and a half to find out all these evidences) I gave some solid proofs and evidences that easily proves you wrong, what is your clarification about this can you elaborate more? why you say that pir role is only for Ismailis? when there are some other religions still have their own pir at this moments and they are not Ismailis?
I do not want to offend you Karim, since I had learned a lot from your posts and you are definitely genius person in this website, but why you do not accept your mistakes? any human being can make mistakes.

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:33 am

every one make mistakes.

Dont say "everyone" because that will include Aga Khan

EsotericKungFu · Post by **EsotericKungFu** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:29 am

shiraz.virani wrote:
every one make mistakes.
Dont say "everyone" because that will include Aga Khan

The Aga Khan doesn't make ANY mistakes like at ALL?

Also I have read (from sites that obviously are anti-ismaili and anti Aga Khan) that there is a Ginan that praises Ali as god? or gives him godlike qualities? I doubt this very much especially after all my reading but could someone tell me how they got this idea

shiraz.virani · Post by **shiraz.virani** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:44 am

Brother karate Kid said :

The Aga Khan doesn't make ANY mistakes like at ALL?

Also I have read (from sites that obviously are anti-ismaili and anti Aga Khan) that there is a Ginan that praises Ali as god? or gives him godlike qualities? I doubt this very much especially after all my reading but could someone tell me how they got this idea

Ahhhh....I personally dont think that any man is perfect soo yes according to me Imams do make mistakes !!

Regarding Ali Allah concept brother , lemme tell you this ......my great great ancestors were idol worshippers and i can say this for a simple fact that if they were not then i would either have been a christian or a sunni

......anyways coming back to the topic.....Imam sent pirs to different countries to preach them about islam [shia islam in general]........so here's this pir who comes to india and finds most of the people idol worshippers.....So in order to convert this idol worshippers into believers our pirs started making hymn's/songs/poetry in such a way that people should be attracted and at the same time understand what pir is trying to tell them.....those poems/hymns/songs are called "ginans".....there used to be a mehfil where our holy pir used to preach people in their tongue and the way which was know by many [idol worshipping]........so our pir showed them sathpanth through ginans and hence ali allah was used.....In short this phrase was used to convert hindus into sathpanti's !!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 1:25 am

That is right Imams are above the Human being and they definitely not make any mistake because they are Maasu'm and have Noorani power which prevent them to make any mistakes.

"WA KUL SHAIN A SAINA HU FI IMAMIN MUBIN"

www.ismaili.net

Hasan ibn Ali Questions

Hasan ibn Ali Questions

Pir's role is not only in Ismaili sect.

Re: Pir's role is not only in Ismaili sect.

Imams are Maasu'm they can not make mistakes.