AmarS wrote: I do not think that people who brought out Kalame Imam E Zaman are motivated by their faith, rather they are motivated by greed.
Interesting. it looks like you know a lot about them. Please share with us any info you have about these greedy people. Did you read the book? Did you meet these people?
I fail to see how people working overtime years after years to bring out such a high quality book which probably cost them $60 or $70 when you include taxes and shipping are selling it for $50. I think it is not a bunch of greedy people, Maybe it is a bunch of stupid people. Or maybe they know something you don't?
Admin,
You sound like you know these people pretty good. It would help their cause if you could share any info that you might have about these people. You sounded like mocking "AmarS". Do we not have a right to present our views? You asked him if he has read the book? Let me ask you, have you read this book? If yes, how does reading this book shed a light on their faith and beliefs.
When we talk of greed we automatically think of it in terms of money. Greed can be of different kinds, like recognition, or creating a name for oneself. How is it that these devout Ismailis took matters into their own hands and decided to publish an "intellectual property" of the Imam without seeking his guidance and authorization? Does this not amount to disrespecting the Imam and his wishes? The question here is of authority, not so much what they have published.
It is not a hidden fact that you have fully supported the publication and have advertised and promoted the book on your website. This makes you one of them. Although I have no problem with that but then the rules of engagement should apply to you equally as well. You will have to open yourself up to criticism which may not be good for this website and the members who participate in debates.
You are absolutely right that no individual has a right to change the original text of ginans. But there is ONE authority that can! Would you agree? You must understand that ginans are not divine, although we sometimes tend to mistake them to be. Ginans can be described, at best, as tafsir of Quran for the most part by our Pirs. These pirs were authorized for their work by the Imams. Ginans were written in the language of the locals while incorporating some farsi and Arabic words sometimes these ginans have come to us through others as some ginans are written in 2nd and 3rd person. It may have been okay at that time to use hindu deities names to make a point and it made sense to the listeners and they accepted the teachings of the pir and converted en mass.
Hari to Ali or Swami to Shah were changed on the direction of the Imam not because it was a mistake by the pirs but to keep the message current and within or acceptable Islamic context in my opinion. Those who are from Pakistan or any other muslim majority countries would agree that until certain time there was no problem reciting these ginans with the hindu influence but when you live amongs staunch enemies of Ismailis and the Imam you are constantly being scrutinized for your practices and any deviation (in their opinion) from Islamic practices like Ali Allah or Hari Anant was considered shirk and enough argument for them to declare Ismailis as kafirs in their shariat court. There was a movement in the 70’s in Pakistan when Ismailis came within a convincing argument by the Sunnis to be declared non-muslims, just like Qadianis. It took a lot of work from the Imam himself and a speech at the Seerat Conference to defeat that movement. Ismailis from other countries are barely aware of the ground realities in Pakistan and hence argue in favor of hindu influencing words in ginans.
We are all arguing about changes in farmans and ginans by the councils or itrebs based on what each of us individually know on this topic. Farmans, like I have said earlier on this thread, I don’t know a whole lot about as far as why changes have been made and on whose authority if at all changes were made. We all know that before the farmans are published in print it goes through a process of editing and only after the approval of the Imam they are printed and distributed to the jamats. Ginans on the other hand went through changes in wordings (and not the essence) only after the guidance from the current Imam. You asked for proof of this authorization in the shape of a farman not realizing the difference between a farman (for the general jamat) and guidance (for jamati institutions). The changes were made through guidance of the Imam to ITREBS (plural, signifying its global implementation) therefore we do not see that guidance in any of the farman books. Hari to Ali was the idea of Imam SMS and I have mentioned here before that in the early 50’s Imam SMS specifically asked the leadership in Pakistan to stop Das Avatar and change Hari to Ali in ginan literature. How many of us have read Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubeen? It is replete with farmans of Imam SMS regarding limiting or eliminating the use of such words in ginans. Don’t think a lot of us have cared to pick up that book and read it for ourselves! Yet we come here and challenge the institutions’ authority set up by the Imam himself for that very purpose thereby challenging the authority of Imam to authorize his institutions to make changes.
I am not at liberty to disclose my source of information, atleast not at this point, but my arguments are based on my conversation with a person who is considered an expert in Ismaili doctrine and theology.
pardesi wrote:Let me ask you, have you read this book? If yes, how does reading this book shed a light on their faith and beliefs.
When we talk of greed we automatically think of it in terms of money. Greed can be of different kinds, like recognition, or creating a name for oneself. How is it that these devout Ismailis took matters into their own hands and decided to publish an "intellectual property" of the Imam without seeking his guidance and authorization?
Well I do not see any name of the compilers. So what kind of name recognition are they seeking?
How do you know they have not sough his guidance or authorisation? Are you just repeating what you heard or do you know this for a fact?
May I remind you that the controversy has been started by people who have never published a farman book in their life and the content of the book is not in question. No one and no announcement is saying the content is not accurate and that you can not benefit from it.
Lets stay focused. Hazrat Ali said when you get a message do not look at he messenger but look at the message.
Last edited by Admin on Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
pardesi wrote:
Hari to Ali or Swami to Shah were changed on the direction of the Imam
Please first read the discussion on this subject. There is already a lot on this Forum about this subject and thee has been a challenge in 1969 Conference by Rai Shamshu Tejpar the then President of the Ismailia Association for Africa to the Ismailia Association of Pakistan that was preaching the same views about changes in ginans. The Pakistan Association could never prove this happened or even give the date or to whom this could have been said by the Imam.
I am not sure how many of the people on this Forum were already born in that time but I was and though I was young I know about those discussions. Discussions were hot, once it was clear that the Imam did not approve these changes, the chapter was closed.
Confucius said "One lie told, thousand times repeated"
An error can never become true however many times you repeat it
pardesi wrote:
Hari to Ali or Swami to Shah were changed on the direction of the Imam
Please first read the discussion on this subject. There is already a lot on this Forum about this subject and thee has been a challenge in 1969 Conference by Rai Shamshu Tejpar the then President of the Ismailia Association for Africa to the Ismailia Association of Pakistan that was preaching the same views about changes in ginans. The Pakistan Association could never prove this happened or even give the date or to whom this could have been said by the Imam.
I am not sure how many of the people on this Forum were already born in that time but I was and though I was young I know about those discussions. Discussions were hot, once it was clear that the Imam did not approve these changes, the chapter was closed.
Confucius said "One lie told, thousand times repeated"
An error can never become true however many times you repeat it
Lets not be on the side of the repeaters.
Whilst Hari to Ali was adopted ONLY FOR PAKISTAN;
SWAMI TO SHAH is NOT.
Anyone changing Swami to Shah is doing so of their own accord.
Or people adding Karim or Shah Karim or Mowla in ginans where there is no Mowla?
Always remember that the Noor of the Pir is the Noor of Mohammed.
SHAH KARIM AL-HUSAINI has shown consistently that he is endowed with wisdom, versatility, sagacity and statesmanship which are characteristics of his great and noble family !
In this fast changing and kaleidoscopic conditions of our world, the IMAM has not only guided his small but vibrant flock effectively in regards to the socio-economic activities but he has successfully been able to render immense material assistance to young nations and in consequence he has helped advance the well being, prosperity and the stability of the peoples of these countries and the leadership that listens to this great Imam are enjoying the fruits of their own success and those who are chasing their own tails, are suffering their own karma....
The Imam is indeed a great and bold champion of Islam.......now I challenge his critics to show us what they have done that has helped Islam? and the ordinary muslims?
The Imam says..."“You should always be aware that your institutions are there to serve you. They are there to serve you well. Where that happens, I am happy; where that doesn’t happen, I am unhappy..."
So the questions I do humbly ask? when did the Golden Jubille year end? how long does it take for them to mobilize and deliver to the jamat? I am told that until someone else published them, they had not even presented their copy to the Imam - they were still arguing as to which Photo of the Ima should be included....then I question I do ask and again humbly, is how did these guys who published them, manage to obtain these in the first place? who has privy to them? do the ordinary people have access to such material? No !
The Imam says..."Only Allah is perfect. There is no perfection otherwise. We strive to do well, but we are not perfect on this earth, and therefore individuals, families, institutions, programs – they need continuous review, continuous challenging, continuous refining, so that they change, they serve. The notion of frozen institutions is one of the most dangerous things in society...."
Now let me raise more questions here...."what did the leadership do about maherally maligning and slandering the Imam and the community? on his site does he use or post any material that too is "copyright" ? infact he is not even an Ismaili now....what about this that I hear about Hunzai cult? what has LIF done? have they not usurped the privilege and the prerogative of the Imam e Zaman? I am not making any statements as statements of fact...I am asking questions....now someone compiles Mowla's firmans and makes it into a book and everyone wants to shoot them down....I am not saying they are right or wrong ! Allah knows best ! but we cannot have two weights and two measures.....Justice is a fundamental pillar of our faith....justice must be seen to be done ! there cannot be anyone more equal than others except in piety !
Is it in the spirit of Islam to turn a blind eye to several profligate
actions and deeds of leaders, whose actions make a mockery of religion and morality? With ADL & QIST, except TAWHID, all Pillars remain shaken !
There is one quality which brings prosperity and health to any community in which it is present; but without it, the community will crumble into the
chaos of hatred, envy, ill-feeling and dissension.
That quality is the collective ability to live in tolerance of the
shortcomings of others: and its benefits are as essential for Muslim
societies as for any others.
History has taught over and over again that one of the greatest behavioral
weaknesses of human beings is ignorance of their own faults.
In many instances human beings try to ignore this unwanted quality; but such avoidance only results in self-destruction, killing their spirit of
morality.
Many people thus become victims of their own inclinations and
isolate themselves from happiness.
Too many of us forget that the first requirement for the salvation of our
Nafs (our souls, or selves) is to realize our own shortcomings. Yet it is
only through self- reflection that we come to understand how ill-mannered
and egotistical behaviour can lead us into misery and danger.
Acknowledging our weaknesses, on the other hand, helps us to eradicate unwanted traits and accentuate the positive ones. Thus if we want to purify the mirror of the soul, we must begin by conducting a basic purification of our manners.
In fact, when we are willfully careless or ignorant of how our actions are reflected back to others, we are committing an unforgiveable sin against the entire community.
There was no need to do such a "hoohah" about this issue....it could have been dealt with privately with the publishers and if they wish to justify this then they need to do the same in all other situations where the Imam's privilege and prerogative has actually been abused and is not simply based on a perception instead of a reality...
It is our daily responsibility to recognize, combat,
and discard unwanted traits; or better still, to prevent them from taking
root in our souls at all.
Through this discipline we learn that to achieve
noble qualities requires forbearance, even through prolonged hardship.
It is not an easy matter to stay on the straight path.
Every moment in our lives is an opportunity which brings a benefit and blessing.
And the one who knows how to be benefited by it and how to be blessed by it receives the benefit and the blessing.
Everyone seems living and awake, but few souls really are living and awake. There are opportunities of benefit and blessing on every plane.
It is reported that the Holy Prophet said to Mawlana Ali: "You are the patron of this ummat and its Dhu'l-Qarnayn." (al-Majalisu'l-Mu'ayyadiyyah, I. p 335). We are aware of the fact that every verse and every sound Hadith which is about Mawlana Ali, is also related to the Imam of every age. Because the light of Ali, which is the light of God and the Prophet, continues in the holy chain of Imamat and nutures the people spiritually and intellectually.
This patron (i.e., the Holy Imam), who has been appointed by God and the Prophet, is always present in this world. (Source: Manifestations of Wisdom, p. 33).
So I am apt to also conclude that some of you are exercising undue monopoly over the Imam....he is also the de facto Caliph and the Imam of the Umma and so his Irshad Mubarak should reach the Umma (not just ismailis) but the Umma itself expeditiously, notwithstanding if some accept him or not....many did not even accept the Prophets and the Messengers.....let me just add here....
I Have received three books in parts which encompass all firmans of the Imam right through from 1957 until now...what I do find is that during the last 50 years, I haven't read or heard some of the firmans of our own Imam and let me assure you they are simply awesome and qualitative....
So if I haven't read some of them until now then most of you haven't read them too....and so why would the Imam make these firmans and not want his own spiritual children to read them or listen to them.....infact the Imam has said that "..anyone who obstructs my jamat from listening to my firmans is not doing the right thing..." - giving us books to read in JK does not encompass all of them ....it only has what they want us to read....the justification they offer also does not make sense....
Again this are my own views - not of the community or anyone else and are not intended to cause anyone any offense....
Without ADL & QIST, except TAWHID, all Pillars remain shaken !
Following the collapse of their Fatimi Caliphate in Egypt, the Nizari Imamat shifted to Alamut in Iran, where the Nizaris kept their beliefs secret.
The first Nizari missionary to India, the eleventh century Nur Satgur, who is buried in Navsari in Gujarat, established the practice of spreading Nizari beliefs by using Hindu motifs and idioms, presenting the Nizari faith as a fulfillment of the millennial expectations of the Hindus of an Avatar.
This was in line with the Shia practice of taqiyya or secret concealment of beliefs, in order to stave off persecution as well as to make the Nizari message more intelligible to a largely Hindu audience.
Thus, the Nizari faith was presented as Sat Panth, Sat Dharm or Maha Marg, as well as Nizar Panth, Nizar Panth and Nij Dharm; and Imam Ali as the Nikalank Avatar, .
The Nizari stress on social equality had a particular appeal for various Dalit communities in Gujarat, Rajasthan and Sindh, and many Dalits accepted the faith.
A key Ismaili missionary, and one who plays a central role in the story of Ramdev, was the fourteenth century Pir Shams or Shamsuddin Sabzvari, whose shrine is located in Multan.
Multan was for a long time a major centre of the Nizari Ismaili movement and the Ismailis actually ruled the town for a while till their kingdom was destroyed by Mahmud Ghaznavi.
Pir Shams is said to have widely traveled in north India, and visited Rajasthan as well.
In the Ramdev tradition he is remembered as Shamas Rishi,
The fact that terms such as Nizar, Nijar, Shams, Multan, Makka, Nur Satgur, Alamut and so on are found in the verses attributed to Ramdev is ample proof, Megwanishi writes, that Ramdev was possibly a secret Ismaili missionary or at least highly influenced by the Ismailis.
So, too, is the fact that Ramdev refers to himself as ‘Nijari’ and that the mantra recited by Ramdev’s followers contains the word ‘Nizar’ (Om Som Nikalank Dev Nizar’).
Further evidence is the fact that the grave Ramdev in Ramdevra, Jaisalmer, is fashioned in traditional Muslim style and has Arabic inscriptions on it.
However, Megwanshi notes, the grave is kept carefully covered up by the Tanwar custodians of the shrine. Although Megwanshi does not state this, this might possibly be to conceal the Ismaili Muslim connections of Ramdev Pir.
The earliest description of Pir Shams is found in the treatise of the biographies of Sufis, entitled "Nafahat al-Uns" (comp. 883/1478) by Nuruddin Abdur Rahman Jami (817-898/1414-1492), the last classic poet of Iran.
Nurullah bin Sharif Shushtari (d. 1019/1610) in his "Majalis al-Mominin" (comp. 1013/1604) traces his ancestry back to the Ismaili root.
Some details are also found in "Tarikh-i Firishta" (comp. 1015/1606). The great Sufi saint Bulleh Shah (1680-1758) also referred to Pir Shams in his Sufic poetry.
The genealogy of Pir Shams given in the "Shajara" which is preserved in the shrine at Multan, indicates the birth of Pir Shams in 570/1165.
However touching here upon the contemporary activity of Pir Shams. He arrived from Daylam to Badakhshan, where he is said to have brought many followers of Momin Shahi sect into the Ismaili fold.
He visited Gilgit and proceeded to Tibet and as far as the ranges of the Himalayas. He came back to Ghazna, where he deputed the local converted prince to Badakhshan on mission work.
Pir Shams also converted a bulk of the Hindus during their Dasera festival after singing 28 garbis (songs) in a temple for ten consecutive nights.
According to the ginans, Pir Shams had sung the garbis in a village, called Analvad.
W. Ivanow places its location in Gujrat, called Anilvad, not far from Ahmadabad. In fact, it is Annhilvad and not Anilvad, situated about 66 miles to the north of Ahmadabad.
It is also recounted that the village was Anwalvad, named after a Jat clan, Anwal in Multan, whose glaring festival of Dasera was famous in Punjab.
The garbis had been composed in Gujrati style, reflecting the culture of Gujrat.
He had also visited Kashmir in 715/1316 and converted the Chak and Changad tribes, thence he proceeded to Multan in 725/1326 for the first time.
Zakaria Qazwini writes in his "Asar al-Bilad wa Akhbar al-Ibad" (comp. 661/1263) that, "Multan is a large, fortified and impregnable city, with a temple which is to the Hindus a place of worship and pilgrimage as Mecca for the Muslims. The inhabitants are the Muslims and Hindus, but the government is in the hands of the former. The chief mosque is described as being near the temple."
Pir Shams visited lower Sind, and travelled through the riverline belt of the Indus, and reached Uchh Sharif most probably in 727/ 1328, which was his mission centre.
He deputed many dais in China, Tibet, Badakhshan, Kashmir and Gujrat. His mission was mobile, and is said to have gone as far as Nepal, known among the Indian Buddhists as Chinab-Nagari, designating the northern India as a part of China.
Pir Shams also visited Rajasthan, and according to his one ginan (no. 70), he embarked from Uchh with his two disciples, Vimras and Surbhan.
He alighted at Gudi Vilod, near Gujrat, and thence proceeded to a forest, and preached a bulk of the untouchables.
He identified himself as Satgur Shams and the Light of Pir Satgur to give coherence to his mission, where the name of Pir Satgur was almost familiar.
He then arrived in a barren land and reached in the middle of Malwa, where he initiated the servile caste and the Abheras and Bhils.
Pir Shams also converted the Hindu Bhambi, and spread his mission as far as Ganges.
The oral tradition tells us that a certain Ransi, whose family adhered Pir Satgur, also became a disciple of Pir Shams. His son, Ajmal (or Ajay Singh), the father of Ramdeo, continued to revere Pir Shams.
After visiting Junjala, Jaitgarh and Karel, Pir Shams proceeded to Bichun and Sakhun in Jaipur-Ajmer region.
After having initiated Khiwan and Ransi, he went back to Multan.
The Nyariya (perhaps Nizaria) of Rajasthan still claim that they originated from Multan and regard Pir Shams as their master (guru).
In the 15th century, the Sirvi caste of the Jaitaran, Bilara, Pali region, had accepted the teachings of a female saint, known as Jiji Devi, who was also a disciple of Pir Shams.
The Prahlad panthi in Jodhpur, Nagaur and Bikaner as well as the Jasnathi in Bishnoi have a devotional literature, showing the Ismaili traits and seal (chhap) of Pir Shams and Pir Sadruddin etc.
The influx of Muslim immigrants into India increased greatly as a result of the Mongol incursions on the Islamic world.
We hear of large colonies of these Muslim migrants in different quarters. With the settlement of the Muslims in India, conciliation and concord between the various culture-groups was not only a moral and intellectual demand, but an urgent social necessity.
The Muslim conquerors had established their political supremacy, but they could not continue to rule while the majority of their subjects differed from them in race, language, religion and culture.
The ulema class rarely appreciated the change in the moods of time and seldom tried to reconstruct their religious tendencies according to the needs of the hour.
The Muslim mystics, however, rose to the occasion and released syncretic forces which liquidated social, ideological and linguistic barriers between the various culture-groups of India.
The mystics adopted an attitude of sympathy and understanding between all cults and creeds.
This broad outlook helped in breaking that spirit of mistrust and isolation which honeycombed relations between the various culture-groups of India and paved way for reapproachment at all levels.
The mystics looked upon all religions as different roads leading to the same destination and never approved of any discrimination or distinction in human society which was one organism for them.
The use of large number of Indian words, phrases, idioms and similes in the contemporary literature indicates the extent to which social contacts had developed.
Prof. Gibb writes in "An Interpretation of Islamic History" (cf. "Journal of World History", 1st vol., no. 1, p. 59) that, "From the 13th century, Sufism increasingly attracted the creative social and intellectual energies within the community, to become the bearer or instrument of a social and cultural revolution." Perhaps in no other country were the effects of this social and cultural revolution so marked and so far reaching as in India.
The early Indo-Muslim mystics believed in a pacific and non-violent approach towards all problems of human society.
Forces, they said, created more problems than it solved. They tried to impress, both by precepts and examples, upon the minds of their followers the fact that a true mystic should always strive for creating love and affection in the hearts of men.
"Placate your enemies," was the advice which Shaykh Farid gave to his disciples.
"Do not give me a knife," he once told a visitor, "Give me a needle. The knife is an instrument for cutting and the needle for sewing together."
Ziauddin Barani thus very significantly remarks in his "Tarikh-i Firuz Shahi" (p. 344) that as the result of the teachings of these mystics, "vices among men had been reduced."
Hence, the eagerness of the Muslim mystics to establish closer relations with the Hindus, had faciliated a fertile ground for the Ismaili dais to propagate their faith in India.
Among the Sufis, there existed four principal orders in India, viz. Chisti, Qadari, Suharwardi and Naqashbandi.
The period of Pir Shams was thus noted for the several skilled exponents of Sufi thought, therefore, he launched his brisk and pervasive mission during the eve of the growing Sufi circles in Punjab.
In the villages of Punjab, he mostly converted the Aror or Rohra, a leading caste in south-western part of the Punjab, i.e., of the lower reaches of the five rivers and below their junction, extending through Bahawalpur into Sind.
They were mostly cultivators, and their large portion on the lower Chinab were purely agricultures, while in the western Punjab, they were mostly tailors, weavers of mats and baskets, makers of vessels of brass and copper and goldsmiths.
Pir Shams appointed musafir ( one who travels ) in different region to collect religious dues ( Dasoondh ), and also built prayer-halls ( khana ) and appointed their mukhis (derived from mukhia means " foremost " ).
He also introduced certain rituals, and his followers mostly in Punjab and Kashmir recognised themselves as gupti ( secret ones ).
Pir Shams passed away in 757/1356 and was buried at Multan. His mausoleum is located about half a mile to the east of the fort site, on the high bank of the old bed of the Ravi river.
His shrine was built by his grandson and was rebuilt by one of the Ismailis in 1718. The tomb is square, 300 feet in height surmounted by a hemispherical dome. It is decorated with ornamental glazed tiles.
Pir Shams is acclaimed as a great preacher and composed many Ginans in different Indian dialects.
It is also possible that his local disciples had received the first hand marrow of his teachings in few places, and transformed them creatively into the ginanic form.
These are the rich reservoir of religious teachings and great treasure house of Sufi thought giving a very comprehensive idea of the prodigality of Sufi symbolism.
He used with supreme skill the languages of the country folk and employed them to interpret ideas of natural beauty and of religious philosophy.
In fact, Pir Shams was a man steeped in an understanding of the mystical teaching of Islam.
The recent diligent research has brought to light that he was the most earliest, rather the first Punjabi poet, and also made rich contribution in the growth of Urdu language during its infancy.
He had a faculty of expressing the truth in the local languages with appropriate turn of phrase and picturesque metaphor.
After Pir Shams, his son Pir Nasiruddin (625-764/1228-1362) continued the mission mostly in Punjab and died in Uchh. He was followed by his son Pir Sahib'din (650- 775/1212-1373), who lived in the garb of a Hindu saint, and made a large proselytism.
He had seven sons, viz. Pir Sadruddin, Sayed Ruknuddin, Sayed Badruddin, Sayed Shamsuddin II, Sayed Nasiruddin, Sayed Ghiasuddin and Sayed Nasiruddin Qalandar Shah.
So then do we still wish to argue over semantics? - whether one uses "Hari" or "Ali"....Hari obviously is the original and the reasoning is clear....the truth was being articulated in the local language...and so what is the truth? Ali is with the Truth and Truth is with Ali !!!!
My sincerest appreciation to the Administrator of this website and all the supporters of the book volumed, Kalam e Imam e Mubeen. I have been following your conversations and was pleased to see that after all these years there are such staunch supporters of the faith, because ultimately the individuals behind these publications have worked tirelessly, and out of the goodness of their heart they should be appreciated.
What is disturbing about some of the replies in this discussion is that a new breed of Ismailis are emerging at this time in our history. This new breed disregards the divinity of the Imam, yet for some beguiled reason they seem to preach their loyalty to him and his words. This is one of the most perverse phenomenon I have encountered to this day, as it presents a somewhat quasi-Ismaili who preaches loyalty to the faith and yet has no attachment to it.
The spread of Ismailis who explicitly pronounce their loyalty to the faith, and yet implicitly consider the Imam like an ordinary person has got to stop. May I remind you that the Ismaili faith, did not start with Ismail, nor did it start with Ali. Ali was the first Imam, we all agree, but he himself got the Imamat at the demise of Abu Talib, his father.
Access to farmans is a point which was misunderstood. What I am trying to help you understand is that a corpus of material in Kalam e Imam e Mubeen is far different than borrowing individual farmans and books. Going to Mukhi Saeb in your Jamat Khane and asking him to hand over to you a book is not a possibility in many areas of the world. There is no published volume by the councils, or available by local Mukhi Sahebs, that is as extensive and accurate as the Kalam e Imam e Mubeen corpus. Even in Jamat Khane libraries the red, green, and blue book can be found. The leaders themselves, who propagate against these volumes, are privately reading these books at home with their families.
You seem to advocate loyalty to the institutions because they are appointed by the Imam, but what sort of loyalty do you have in which there is no inclination of respect for the Imam’s divinity? On one hand you want to advocate your stance that badmouthing the councils is something you wouldn’t support, on the other hand you have no regard for the Imam’s divine authority. If the Imam is not Allah, as you have frankly pointed out, and he just a human being then why remain loyal?
The faith of Ismailism has its foundations in the message of the Pirs. There have been 50 Pirs since the time our holy Prophet Muhammad. Those 50 Pirs worked to convert individuals with one goal in mind, and that was to show the Imam of the time. No Pir has ever said that the Imam is not Allah, God, or the Creator. On the contrary, if you read Hak tu Pak tu, you see that Ali is denoted as holy, pure, the king, the understanding, the maintainer, the beneficent, the first and last, the ultimate judge, the Originator, the fashioner, and the Creator. Can you use these attributes for an ordinary mortal? Take the Ginan Allah ek Kasam Sabuka, where it says that the progeny of Ali is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Imam. The list can go on and on, but if you read the Ginans you will come to realise that the Pir has meticulously centered the faith around himself. Repeatedly in the Ginans, the Pir has exuded his identity as being that of Brahma, which represents the original manifestation of the Prophet Muhammad’s Noor.
Pir Sadardin did not seem the least bit reluctant to affirm his identity as the manifestation of the Prophet himself. That intransigence view by the Pirs has not changed over time and is further reiterated in the Farmans of Pir Aga Ali Shah, the father of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah.
Pir Sadardin created a new dua, and like the Torah, Bible, and Quran, the dua was a complete summary of the tenants of the faith. It declared the foundation upon which the follower were to adhere to. Pir Sadardin was not a Pir simply for the Ismailis of the Indian subcontinent. As a Pir he was responsible for all the active missionary work being done in various countries. As I mentioned in another response, individuals such as Nasir Khusraw, who was considered to have converted a large majority Ismailis from Central Asia, would have had to report to the Pir of his time. In this case the Pir during the time of Nasir Khusraw was Pir Noordin who was travelling to India in 1082 AD. Nasir Khusraw was not a Pir, and should never be given the title of Pir by any Ismaili. He was a dai, and an ordinary mortal such as you and I.
May I remind you that the Ismaili faith has no real tenants other than the statement Ali Allah. This statement alone carries the unique distinction between Pir Sadardin’s doctrine and the rest of Islam. First of all the majority of Shias do not agree that Ali is Allah. They agree that Ali was the rightful successor of the Prophet, but a vast majority don’t believe that he was God manifest. Go back to their declaration of faith as it says, there is no god by God, Muhammad is the messenger of God, and Ali is the friend of God.
Sunni Muslims acknowledge only God and his Prophet. Shias go further to say that after the Prophet, Ali (implying the Imams after Ali as well) is the friend of Allah. Pir Sadardin neither omitted Ali from his declaration nor did he accept Ali to be simply Allah’s friend. He made two very unique and clear statements:
1. Ali Allah – meaning Ali is Allah
And to further reiterated the meaning, he maintained:
2. Ali sahi Allah – meaning Ali is truly Allah.
Both these statements were used interchangeably, but had the very same meaning. The message was that Ali, or in this case the present living Imam, is Allah in the manifest form. You are insinuating that Ali in the Ginans, such as Hak tu Pak tu, or referring to one of the attributes of Allah. Your claim is that when we say Ali in the Ginans we don’t mean Ali ibn Abu Talib, but rather we are referring to Allah in his attribute of Ali which means the most high.
That is a rather perverse way of changing the context of the faith. If we were to believe that all the references in the Ginans about Ali were really references only to Allah then we would end up with lots of syntax in the statements.
For example, the statement in the ginan “Allah ek kasam sabuka” would read: the progeny of Ali is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Imam.
How would you change this statement?
If I were to substitute the word of Ali with Allah then it would read:
The progeny of Allah is Islam Shah the king. Allah is that Allah.
Either way it still cannot be changed to remove the identity of the Imam. There are many instances which don’t make sense when you assume Ali is referring to Allah.
Take another example. In our tasbhi we say: Oh Ali, Oh Hazer Imam...do such and such for us.
If here we assume that the word Ali means Allah, there again you are saying:
Oh Allah, oh Hazer Imam...do such and such for us.
Let’s go even further.
In the dua we say, there is no hero except Ali, there is no sword except Zulfikar. So are you seriously suggesting that a blunt statement like this, which clearly identifies only Ali ibn Abu Talib and his two pronged sword, really meant Allah? If you say that there is no hero except Allah, there is no sword except Zulfikar then again you are suggesting that Ali is Allah.
Either way, you are grossly mistaken when you advocate that Ali is not Allah. If that is your conviction than there is no real point to continuing being an Ismaili because this faith is centered around that principle. We as Ismailis have our teachings from that fundamental principle. From that conviction we see the Imam as the manifestation of Allah. His words are to be obeyed, his payments are to be paid, and his name should be glorified. That is essence of the Munajat. The Munajat is not saying that may the Imam have a kingdom just for the sake of making him feel good, it is saying that may the Imam have the kingdom of the earth.
To frivolously advocate that Das Avatar is a Hindu creation is a poor act of judgment. Das Avatar is historical text of evolution, from Fish, to primitive species, to cavemen, to modern man. Das Avatar is the story of mankind, our evolution in juxtaposition with the God’s manifestation. To treat the Das Avatar as un-Islamic is to deny the very essence of Islam. Islam is a natural religion in that it allows reasoning and scientific inquiry to be part of its doctrine. Then the evolution of mankind as understood by Das Avatar is a brilliant fusion of scientific inquiry and religious doctrine.
In Islam we don’t believe that there is a dichotomy between science and religion. Science in our faith is simply a quest for understanding that which already exists. Science opens windows which give us better control over the natural environment and also helps us to understand our world better.
So if you don’t believe that Ali is Allah then you are in the wrong club. People who don’t believe Ali is Allah should naturally gravitate to being Sunni or Shia Ithnasheries. If you are Sunni then you don’t have to worry about the Imam at all. You simply have to follow Allah and his doctrine. That is better for you. If you feel that you want to refine your interpretation of the faith then I suggest becoming a Shia Ithnasheri. That way, you can still have the rigid belief in Allah and his doctrine, but you have the right to acknowledge Ali as the successor of the Prophet.
Ismailism is not for those who consider Ali as a leader, a friend, a pope, or a quazi-divine. Ismailism is the total acknowledgment that Ali ibn Abu Talib is manifestation of God on Earth. His Noor, or rather his soul, is eternal, and will continue to be present in this world to guide mankind and to act as a proof of divine presence.
If you want to remain as an Ismaili then you must understand that our doctrine is not found in the Torah, Bible, or Quran. We have been given a dua by Pir Sadardin which clearly outlined what he felt his followers, from throughout the world, should adhere to. That dua was not exclusively for the Indian speaking followers. It was a dua made universal for all the followers of the faith. Unfortunately many Ismailis around the world complained that they were being harassed in their respective countries because of their belief. Many orthodox Muslims would label them as non-believers, kafirs, and blasphemers. They would run to the Imam of the time to ask for a change in the dua to make things better for them and their neighbours. There are two things wrong with that:
The problem of one faith penalizing another faith is not an excuse to change the doctrine. The aggressor ought to be scrutinized by law, which is the responsibility of the government.
Secondly why are those individuals considered the aggressors and we the oppressed? Why don’t we be aggressive and tell them that they are preaching blasphemy and that they should convert to Ismailism?
Losing the old dua of Pir Sadardin was one of the biggest mistakes in our faith. We lost our tenants, our history, and our principles. But all these elements were born from the parent principle which is Ali Allah. If Ali Allah was in our current dua then there would be no need for any other explanations. Some individuals would argue that alyyullah means the same as Ali Allah. Firstly, if they meant the same thing then why change it? Secondly, may I may remind you that Ali Allah and Alyyllah are both statement in Arabic. Why was it necessary to remove Ali Allah in the first place if the language was the same?
Remember, that Juma Bagat and many prominent Ismailis went to Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and requested to add just one word in dua to make things better. They suggested that instead of saying Ali Allah that the Imam should approve Ali Waliyyun Allah, meaning Ali is the friend of Allah. The Imam’s response was that they must drop the whole dua if they wish to alter that statement. He said it was their ignorance and not that Ali Allah was wrong.
So here the Imam is telling us that Ali Allah is not wrong, that without it the whole dua is of no significance. If the whole dua is of no significance because of one statement then Ali Allah is considered to be the essence of the Ismaili doctrine.
I encourage you to understand your faith from the context of its conception. Don’t throw in the “hocus pocus” of moving with the times. This is a statement which has been severely abused by many Ismailis to mean that we can simply discard the past. The past is needed in order to make sense of the present. The past ought to be respected, not ignored.
You said that you read a farman that Imam denied his divinity. You state that he said he was not God and that those who consider him to be God are committing blasphemy. Well, that seems like a misunderstanding on your part. Why would, after all I’ve said till now, the Imam say that he is not God and that anyone who thinks so is committing an act of blasphemy? If that was the case then he’s undermining his own authority, his own ancestors. There is no document, whatsoever, where the Imam has made such a statement.
And if you have somehow conjured up a farman and now wish to re-interpret it to suit your convictions then we would love to see it. We would love to have its reference. Surprisingly enough you don’t believe in the Imam’s divinity, yet you are comfortable basing your believe in his farman that he is not divine. You are contradicting yourself.
With regards to conversion, I beg to differ that bringing individuals in to the Ismaili faith is discouraged by the Imam. No Imam has discouraged conversion, on the contrary conversion of non-Ismailis to Ismailis is still going on in our faith, and the process of council mediation of new converts is very much alive. We also had missionaries whose primary role was to convert outsiders and bring them into the fold. Waezin’s are not missionaries. Missionaries are authorized to convert outside the Jamat as well as to strengthen the Jamat from within. Waezin’s are not historically allowed to convert outside the faith, but are only authorized to preach within the faith itself. Laxing in these areas over the years, and blending the two roles has mistakenly caused the role of the missionary to become inapplicable.
Conversion of non-Ismailis to Ismailis is extremely important for all faiths, let alone the Ismaili faith. With all non-white girls scampering to marry white boys, or shall I say Christians boys, and all the rush to marry Ithnashies or Hindus we will eventually shrink in numbers. If we shrink and don’t convert then use your deductions of logic and tell me how the faith can survive?
Conversion is part of the any religion, and no religion can survive without it. Please don’t try to convince people that conversion is somehow going to create people of convenience rather than conviction. Who are you to say that people who convert, or have converted are people of convenience? I have told you that people to this very moment are converting to the Ismaili faith, are you saying to all of them that they’re faith is one of convenience?
Nobody looks at whether a person is converting because of convenience or not. The very act of submission to the Imam, or bayat, is that person’s complete surrender. It is not something that is done today and gone tomorrow. Our conversion process ensures that individuals are coming to the faith because of their own free will. That is very important. What is in their soul is not for you and me to know. All we care about is the physical act of bayat, which is a submission by the lips of that individual. They sign the documents just like a marriage. Are you going to now say that the institution of marriage is an act of convenience rather than marriage because of the overwhelming divorce rates in the world? You are not being serious.
It doesn’t matter who gets killed in what society over marriages. Ismailis believe that two people should get married on their own accord, and that be the basis of their commitment. Faith is part of that commitment as well, because starting a family with a person is something that can be taken nonchalantly.
agakhani wrote:Even the name of Lut Nabi's Kaum also quoted, and we all know thatthey were homosexual and lesbian.
I don't like to change the context of thread but at least try to educate yourself before you spread repeated and biased information. As an ismaili (if you are an Ismaili), you owe it to be better educated than others.
Nabi Lut's "kaum" (the people whom he visited as a prophet and lived with them for long time) were not homosexuals, nor were they lesbians. Read and study the history not just through one source but research for yourself. Don't just follow those who read Qu'ran literally and write their histories.
It has been countered and argued that the people Nabi Lut visited were unethical, inhospitable, rapists and plunderers. They were situated by the town where the caravans would pass and they used to take advantage of people. They are particularly known for raping their hosts and looting them for their gains. This does not make them homosexuals nor lesbians (since when is homosexual equals to rapists?)
Read Scott Kugle, if you're interested in learning more, don't just spread tired old information.
And BTW, if no one has said this already, there is no such thing as "aga khani". It is derogatory to call Ismaili Muslims a aga khani. Aga Khan is a title, not a 'kaum'.
Samir Noorali, Sir, you write well but you write a lot on different topics all under one thread. May I ask you a simple question without being all over the multiple issues raised in this thread?
Why do you think Imam's divinity is not being taught in the contemporary times and why do you think it is being actively curtailed from the highest of teaching places? Seen any alwaez give waez on this topic? Seen any religious school expanding on it? Has it ever occurred that perhaps the vision of Imam - as dictated through IIS and ITREB - is asking against it? Is it not possible that the current Imam does not want his followers to hold on to the old ideas of religion education anymore?
Religious knowledge is always fluid, it is never static, those who keep things static are called Wahabi/Salafis. I am not against the concepts you are discussing (though I am against discussing it in open forums like this) but these concepts are batini and should be achieved by individual after rigorous and exhaustive knowledge searching; these are subjective and individual understandings of each person. But there are some of us folks here who seem to be stuck on the old ideas of knowledge and they appear to be in the propagating mode for the same which is all the more against the vision of the current Imam. And that to me is more disturbing and incomprehensible than anything else.