praying 3x as opposed to 5x
praying 3x as opposed to 5x
i have a question regarding us as ismailis saying our du'a 3x a day.. as opposed to praying 5x a day .. (compared to other muslims) .. and i was also wondering.. if ever at any point in time.. in our history.. did we ever pray 5x .. WHEN this changed.. and WHO was the imam that changed this practice.. and most importantly.. WHY.. ?
5X verses 3X Prayer
According to Fatimid literature we did pray 5X during the Fatimid Period. From a Ginanic standpoint we have been prescribed 3X.
In our tradition, it is the Pir who prescribes the number of times of prayers according to the prevailing circumstances. It is the Pirs absolute prerogative to determine the appropriate practice for a particular circumstance. He does not have to give a reason to change a practice.
It should also be noted that 5X prayer is not prescribed in the Quran.
There has been discussion on Sharia at: Doctrines -> Baten or Zahir - can we choose. You may want to go there.
In our tradition, it is the Pir who prescribes the number of times of prayers according to the prevailing circumstances. It is the Pirs absolute prerogative to determine the appropriate practice for a particular circumstance. He does not have to give a reason to change a practice.
It should also be noted that 5X prayer is not prescribed in the Quran.
There has been discussion on Sharia at: Doctrines -> Baten or Zahir - can we choose. You may want to go there.
Prayer
As Ismailies we are supposed to pray 24 X 7.
MHI has recently mentioned calling upon Ya Aly, Ya Mohammed, Ya Allah whenever we find tiime.
Our Pirs say that all deeds are bad except when accompanied by Ajampiya jaap (unconscious uninterrupted dhikr).
My conclusion therefore is that as Ismailies we have to pray 24 X 7.
This is what our esoteric faith is about, not the 3 times 5 times debate.
Shams
MHI has recently mentioned calling upon Ya Aly, Ya Mohammed, Ya Allah whenever we find tiime.
Our Pirs say that all deeds are bad except when accompanied by Ajampiya jaap (unconscious uninterrupted dhikr).
My conclusion therefore is that as Ismailies we have to pray 24 X 7.
This is what our esoteric faith is about, not the 3 times 5 times debate.
Shams
Dua and Its Importance.
I think we must differentiate between formal, communal and compulsory duties on the one hand and the informal voluntary and personal aspects of our faith on the other. Yes we are Batinis and though the major component of our existence and expeirence is in the domain of the Batin, we still have to perform zaheri duties that are binding upon all Ismailis and which give us our collective identity as Ismailis from the practical point of view. Dua is one of the compulsory duties that is binding upon all murids and is the foundation upon which the Batini and personal prayers such as zikr are based.
From that point of view, I think discussion on 3X prayer is important. That is the reason why the Pirs have also mentioned them in the Ginans.
Just because we are an esoteric tradition, does not mean that we do not have our Sharia. We have our sharia which is defined by the Imam. Dua is an important component of our sharia.
From that point of view, I think discussion on 3X prayer is important. That is the reason why the Pirs have also mentioned them in the Ginans.
Just because we are an esoteric tradition, does not mean that we do not have our Sharia. We have our sharia which is defined by the Imam. Dua is an important component of our sharia.
Re: 5X verses 3X Prayer
who was this pir? and why is it that they do not have to give reason for their change in practice? shouldn't they.. so we can better understand 'why' we do what we do..?> or are we simply to believe everything and anything that is told to us ? blind faith?kmaherali wrote:According to Fatimid literature we did pray 5X during the Fatimid Period. From a Ginanic standpoint we have been prescribed 3X.
In our tradition, it is the Pir who prescribes the number of times of prayers according to the prevailing circumstances. It is the Pirs absolute prerogative to determine the appropriate practice for a particular circumstance. He does not have to give a reason to change a practice.
It should also be noted that 5X prayer is not prescribed in the Quran.
There has been discussion on Sharia at: Doctrines -> Baten or Zahir - can we choose. You may want to go there.
and i know that 5x prayer isn't prescribed in the qu'ran.. but it is prescribed as one of the 5 pillars of islam.. by prohet muhammad (pbuh) .. which has obviously been changed for ismailis.. i was reading in another forum that there is now.. 7 pillars?
and one more thing.. is there any proof written anywhere that we as ismailis used to pray 5x during the fatimid period that i can see for myself? or look into further .. ? or should i just look up the whole of the fatimid era ..?
Re: 5X verses 3X Prayer
In matters of faith some matters are reasonable to ordinary murids in which case the Pir would explain the reason. Other matters may not be reasonable to all murids and could lead to conflict or would compromise the security of the community if the Pir gave the reason. According to our interpretation, the Imam's word is final whether it is reasonable or not. He interpretes the faith according to changing circumstances. The practice does not have to be static. It has to evolve. I think it is irrelevant to know who changed and why. What should matter is that the present Imam has sanctioned it.verzz wrote: who was this pir? and why is it that they do not have to give reason for their change in practice? shouldn't they.. so we can better understand 'why' we do what we do..?> or are we simply to believe everything and anything that is told to us ? blind faith?
There are many interpretations of Islam. 5 pillars is one interpretation. Ours is another interpretation and it has 7 pillars. Islam is pluralistic.verzz wrote: and i know that 5x prayer isn't prescribed in the qu'ran.. but it is prescribed as one of the 5 pillars of islam.. by prohet muhammad (pbuh) .. which has obviously been changed for ismailis.. i was reading in another forum that there is now.. 7 pillars?
I know for sure that they did perform Namaz during the Fatimid Period and I am inferring from that that they also performed it 5 times. However, they placed more emphasis on the Batini aspect of it. You will find this mentioned in the works of Qadi Numan, Nasir Khusraw, Hamidaldin Kirmani, Sijistani etc.verzz wrote: and one more thing.. is there any proof written anywhere that we as ismailis used to pray 5x during the fatimid period that i can see for myself? or look into further .. ? or should i just look up the whole of the fatimid era ..?
Shariah
YAM K
Shariah, what shariah? How can there be shariah in a Tariqah. Our faith is a Tariqah. Shariah was abolished over a thousand years ago if I remember correctly. Salman Farsi did not follow the shariah.
SHOW ME ONE FARMAN OF IMAM TALKING ABOUT ISMAILI SHARIAH.
As far as dua and dasond are concerned they are marifati activities, please dont call either one of them shariah.
Our Imam tells us that if we cannot say the dua at dua time say Ya Aly, Ya Allah...thereby releasing us from the "compulsion" in a way.
Your statement
According to our interpretation, the Imam's word is final whether it is reasonable or not.
made me almost blow a gasket.
Imam is the first reason. To say, to even think the word unreasonable with Imams word is unacceptable to me. Yes, it is possible that our limited reason may fail to recognize the Noor in his words.
And as far as blind faith is concerned, we all have to have that in our mothers word as to who our father is.
Try to read the book Recognition of Imam. Towards the end there is mentioned what to do with shariah
and people who follow shariah.
shams
Shariah, what shariah? How can there be shariah in a Tariqah. Our faith is a Tariqah. Shariah was abolished over a thousand years ago if I remember correctly. Salman Farsi did not follow the shariah.
SHOW ME ONE FARMAN OF IMAM TALKING ABOUT ISMAILI SHARIAH.
As far as dua and dasond are concerned they are marifati activities, please dont call either one of them shariah.
Our Imam tells us that if we cannot say the dua at dua time say Ya Aly, Ya Allah...thereby releasing us from the "compulsion" in a way.
Your statement
According to our interpretation, the Imam's word is final whether it is reasonable or not.
made me almost blow a gasket.
Imam is the first reason. To say, to even think the word unreasonable with Imams word is unacceptable to me. Yes, it is possible that our limited reason may fail to recognize the Noor in his words.
And as far as blind faith is concerned, we all have to have that in our mothers word as to who our father is.
Try to read the book Recognition of Imam. Towards the end there is mentioned what to do with shariah
and people who follow shariah.
shams
Re: Shariah
Shariah is derived from the root 'sharaa', "to introduce", "enact", "prescribe" and therefore it means anything that introduces you to a system or Tariqah. The fundamentals of our tradition are the prescriptions upon which our Tariqah is based. These are Dua and Dasond and therefore they are our Sharia.shamsu wrote:YAM K
Shariah, what shariah? How can there be shariah in a Tariqah. Our faith is a Tariqah. Shariah was abolished over a thousand years ago if I remember correctly. Salman Farsi did not follow the shariah.
SHOW ME ONE FARMAN OF IMAM TALKING ABOUT ISMAILI SHARIAH.
As far as dua and dasond are concerned they are marifati activities, please dont call either one of them shariah.
The Shariah as generally understood as Islamic canonical law is only one facet of Shariah. Sharia however has a very broad connotation. Any system of law or regulations or prescriptions is Sharia.
Furthermore in the Ginan verse of "Tum Chet Man Mera" shariah is mentioned.
ejee gat maa(n)he meelo neeto neet, paheleeye maano shareeyat
tareekat or hakeekat, maarfat me(n) manku(n) maar
tum chet man meraa...........................................7
Meet in the congregation(of Jamaatkhaanaa) everyday. As a first principle believe in the 'Sharia'(aim, principles, rules and doctrines of faith). Then follow the way or the method(Tariqah) and then internalise the inner mysteries(truths)(Haqiqah) as attained on the Path. Attaining the gnosis(Maarifah, ultimate knowledge and certainty) hence, kill or destroy your (lower)mind including it's desires.
I think in Mandli farmans MHI has distinguished matters that are voluntary and those which are obligatory or compulsory. He defined Dua as the latter. ONLY IF we cannot say Dua at Dua Time we can say Ya Aly, Ya Allah otherwise we have to do so. It is not to be regarded as a substitute. It is another aspect of His mercy.shamsu wrote: Our Imam tells us that if we cannot say the dua at dua time say Ya Aly, Ya Allah...thereby releasing us from the "compulsion" in a way..
Yes I meant reasonable/unreasonable relative to our limited thinking. That is the reason this issue has arosen in the first place because according to verzz 3X seems unreasonable. Nothing to blow about. A simple matter of clarification!shamsu wrote: Your statement
According to our interpretation, the Imam's word is final whether it is reasonable or not.
made me almost blow a gasket.
Imam is the first reason. To say, to even think the word unreasonable with Imams word is unacceptable to me. Yes, it is possible that our limited reason may fail to recognize the Noor in his words.
Re: Shariah
nowhere in my first post.. does it say that saying my dua 3x a day as opposed to 5x is unreasonable to me. my question was .. if ever.. at any given point in time.. did we used to pray 5x.. and if so, when the practice was changed .. but NOWHERE did i say that it was unreasonable..kmaherali wrote:because according to verzz 3X seems unreasonable.
just wanted to clarify THAT with you..
i just have a lot of questions.. that i'm seeking answers to.. thats all..
Ya Ali madad!
As I mention in this thread, there are a few similarities between what Ismaili Shias do and what Ithna Ashari Shias do. This shows that the Ismaili tariqah is, indeed, a Shia tariqah.
Shias pray five prayers at three times during the day: Fajar, Zuhrain (Zuhr and Asr), and Maghribain (Maghrib and Isha). (Thus, the accusation that "Shias pray only three prayers" is false.) At Zuhrain and Maghribain, there is a short pause between the two prayers.
I have not been able to read anything as to how this arrangement - five prayers at three times of the day - evolved from the five prayers at five times of the day. I do not even know which practice was most prevalent in early Islam or when the different practices came about. There are hadith on both sides (Sunni with their five times a day and Shia with their three times a day) that show the validity of the practice.
Nonetheless, suffice it to say that it makes perfect sense, from a historical perspective, for Ismailis to pray three times a day. That five prayers are not offered is but a natural consequence from the three-times-a-day habit.
Now, one must realize - and to me this is crucial and inexpressably important - that strictly speaking there is no orthodoxy in Islam. There certainy are movements that promote or attempt to enforce orthopraxy (correct action), but enforcing orthodoxy (correct belief) on all Muslims goes intrinsically against what God revealed to the Prophet (SAAS). In the Qur'an, the Prohet (SAAS) accused the Christians and Jews of worshiping their clergy. Someone objected, pointing out that they very clearly do not worship them. The Prophet (SAAS) responded by pointing out their unquestioning adherence and obedience to their clergy: this is as good as worship. Therefore, in the very same manner, Muslims should be very aware that they do not end up worshiping their clergy (which, sadly, many, many Muslims do). The gates of ijtihad, renewel, reformation, and reconsideration are ALWAYS open - otherwise God would have created a clergy for all Muslims.
Now, the situation is a bit different when it comes to Ismailism and Ismaili belief. From this perspective the above holds true, but in addition to the above (or despite it) God has established a central authority through the Imamate. The Imamate is the central authority for all who pledge allegiance (baiyat) to it. Ideally, all Muslims would make baiyat to the Imamate, but until then the Imamate is the central leadership, arbiter, and issuer of both orthopraxy and orthodoxy for the people in the movement. Muslims outside the baiyat are free to legislate and issue rulings as they see fit, but they cannot impinge on the authority of the Imamate just as the Imamate refrains from enforcing its (due) authority over them.
As such, to say "Islam has X pillars" or "Islam teaches one must pray X times" makes no sense. "Prevailing Sunni theologians and jurists believe that Islam has X pillars or Y prayers" is more accurate, but then a wise person would also consider what prevailing Ithna Ashari theologians and jurists, prevailing Daudi Ismaili Shia theologians and jurists, Sufi qutbs, etc., believe or are saying.
Unlike what the modern-day Kharijites (aka the Salafis, aka the Wahhabis, aka the Deobandis) would like people to believe, Islam is not and was not meant to be monolithic. (And remember the fitnah Kharijites are liable to cause - it was one of them who dastardly assassinated Imam Ali (AS).)
Nur-e-Khuda hafiz,
ON
As I mention in this thread, there are a few similarities between what Ismaili Shias do and what Ithna Ashari Shias do. This shows that the Ismaili tariqah is, indeed, a Shia tariqah.
Shias pray five prayers at three times during the day: Fajar, Zuhrain (Zuhr and Asr), and Maghribain (Maghrib and Isha). (Thus, the accusation that "Shias pray only three prayers" is false.) At Zuhrain and Maghribain, there is a short pause between the two prayers.
I have not been able to read anything as to how this arrangement - five prayers at three times of the day - evolved from the five prayers at five times of the day. I do not even know which practice was most prevalent in early Islam or when the different practices came about. There are hadith on both sides (Sunni with their five times a day and Shia with their three times a day) that show the validity of the practice.
Nonetheless, suffice it to say that it makes perfect sense, from a historical perspective, for Ismailis to pray three times a day. That five prayers are not offered is but a natural consequence from the three-times-a-day habit.
Now, one must realize - and to me this is crucial and inexpressably important - that strictly speaking there is no orthodoxy in Islam. There certainy are movements that promote or attempt to enforce orthopraxy (correct action), but enforcing orthodoxy (correct belief) on all Muslims goes intrinsically against what God revealed to the Prophet (SAAS). In the Qur'an, the Prohet (SAAS) accused the Christians and Jews of worshiping their clergy. Someone objected, pointing out that they very clearly do not worship them. The Prophet (SAAS) responded by pointing out their unquestioning adherence and obedience to their clergy: this is as good as worship. Therefore, in the very same manner, Muslims should be very aware that they do not end up worshiping their clergy (which, sadly, many, many Muslims do). The gates of ijtihad, renewel, reformation, and reconsideration are ALWAYS open - otherwise God would have created a clergy for all Muslims.
Now, the situation is a bit different when it comes to Ismailism and Ismaili belief. From this perspective the above holds true, but in addition to the above (or despite it) God has established a central authority through the Imamate. The Imamate is the central authority for all who pledge allegiance (baiyat) to it. Ideally, all Muslims would make baiyat to the Imamate, but until then the Imamate is the central leadership, arbiter, and issuer of both orthopraxy and orthodoxy for the people in the movement. Muslims outside the baiyat are free to legislate and issue rulings as they see fit, but they cannot impinge on the authority of the Imamate just as the Imamate refrains from enforcing its (due) authority over them.
As such, to say "Islam has X pillars" or "Islam teaches one must pray X times" makes no sense. "Prevailing Sunni theologians and jurists believe that Islam has X pillars or Y prayers" is more accurate, but then a wise person would also consider what prevailing Ithna Ashari theologians and jurists, prevailing Daudi Ismaili Shia theologians and jurists, Sufi qutbs, etc., believe or are saying.
Unlike what the modern-day Kharijites (aka the Salafis, aka the Wahhabis, aka the Deobandis) would like people to believe, Islam is not and was not meant to be monolithic. (And remember the fitnah Kharijites are liable to cause - it was one of them who dastardly assassinated Imam Ali (AS).)
Nur-e-Khuda hafiz,
ON
YAM,ONiazi wrote:Ya Ali madad!
Shias pray five prayers at three times during the day: Fajar, Zuhrain (Zuhr and Asr), and Maghribain (Maghrib and Isha). (Thus, the accusation that "Shias pray only three prayers" is false.) At Zuhrain and Maghribain, there is a short pause between the two prayers.
While it is interesting to draw parallels with other Shii interpretations on this issue, that there are other interpretations who have 3 times, I do not think that our 3 times is a derivative of this shift from 5 times to 3 times. The form or the content of our Dua does nor resemble the 3 times prayer that the other Shiis practice. Our three times is prescribed independant of the tendencies that exist in other interpretations.
Re: 5X verses 3X Prayer
The Qur'an prescribes prayer 3x a day. This has been discussed in other parts of the forum.verzz wrote:who was this pir? and why is it that they do not have to give reason for their change in practice? shouldn't they.. so we can better understand 'why' we do what we do..?> or are we simply to believe everything and anything that is told to us ? blind faith?kmaherali wrote:According to Fatimid literature we did pray 5X during the Fatimid Period. From a Ginanic standpoint we have been prescribed 3X.
In our tradition, it is the Pir who prescribes the number of times of prayers according to the prevailing circumstances. It is the Pirs absolute prerogative to determine the appropriate practice for a particular circumstance. He does not have to give a reason to change a practice.
It should also be noted that 5X prayer is not prescribed in the Quran.
There has been discussion on Sharia at: Doctrines -> Baten or Zahir - can we choose. You may want to go there.
and i know that 5x prayer isn't prescribed in the qu'ran.. but it is prescribed as one of the 5 pillars of islam.. by prohet muhammad (pbuh) .. which has obviously been changed for ismailis.. i was reading in another forum that there is now.. 7 pillars?
and one more thing.. is there any proof written anywhere that we as ismailis used to pray 5x during the fatimid period that i can see for myself? or look into further .. ? or should i just look up the whole of the fatimid era ..?
Shams
Re: 5X verses 3X Prayer
The Qu'ran prescribes prayer 3x a day.verzz wrote:who was this pir? and why is it that they do not have to give reason for their change in practice? shouldn't they.. so we can better understand 'why' we do what we do..?> or are we simply to believe everything and anything that is told to us ? blind faith?kmaherali wrote:According to Fatimid literature we did pray 5X during the Fatimid Period. From a Ginanic standpoint we have been prescribed 3X.
In our tradition, it is the Pir who prescribes the number of times of prayers according to the prevailing circumstances. It is the Pirs absolute prerogative to determine the appropriate practice for a particular circumstance. He does not have to give a reason to change a practice.
It should also be noted that 5X prayer is not prescribed in the Quran.
There has been discussion on Sharia at: Doctrines -> Baten or Zahir - can we choose. You may want to go there.
and i know that 5x prayer isn't prescribed in the qu'ran.. but it is prescribed as one of the 5 pillars of islam.. by prohet muhammad (pbuh) .. which has obviously been changed for ismailis.. i was reading in another forum that there is now.. 7 pillars?
and one more thing.. is there any proof written anywhere that we as ismailis used to pray 5x during the fatimid period that i can see for myself? or look into further .. ? or should i just look up the whole of the fatimid era ..?
btw..the Pir doesn't need or isn't required to give us reasons for changes in Tariqah practices.
Shams
(The other Shams)
Shariah was abolished on 8 August 1164 by Imam Alazikrihi Salaam at Alamut in the middle of Ramadan around noon. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has confirmed that Shariah and Hakiqah will NEVER meet. A Hadith of the Prophet was quoted by Imam Aga Ali Shah saying that the Prophet told there will be 72 sects in Islam but only one will follow the true path. Our Holy Prophet Muhammad was asked "How will we recognise that sect?". He said, "They will not follow Shariah but will be immersed in the love of Ahl-e-Bayt". Does this 72 sects hadith disturbe some people in our Jamat?
Pick your choice.
Nagib
Pick your choice.
Nagib
In another context outside the Jamati one, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was asked this question to which he replied that the saved sect is comprised of all pious people of all sects. Hence every sect has access to freedom albeit ours is easier and quicker due to contact with the Imam.nagib wrote:Shariah was abolished on 8 August 1164 by Imam Alazikrihi Salaam at Alamut in the middle of Ramadan around noon. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah has confirmed that Shariah and Hakiqah will NEVER meet. A Hadith of the Prophet was quoted by Imam Aga Ali Shah saying that the Prophet told there will be 72 sects in Islam but only one will follow the true path. Our Holy Prophet Muhammad was asked "How will we recognise that sect?". He said, "They will not follow Shariah but will be immersed in the love of Ahl-e-Bayt". Does this 72 sects hadith disturbe some people in our Jamat?
Pick your choice.
Nagib
Re: Prayer
As ismaili you dont have to pray 24 X 7 (you have to say dua 3x a day). You have to keep your life balanced. If you come to jk at least once morning or evening and say your dua everyday. But there is more. You have to do bundagi as well you cant just come to jk and say your dua. By doing all that you will get strength to do well in material world. For example: telling truth, no cursing and etc.
Re: Prayer
anyone what is the meaning of shariah?
Re: Prayer
Shariah is the system of civil law that is based upon the Quran and the hadith. Shariah is also a code of conduct that tells what to eat, how to pray, and how to behave in the public and in private [way of life]. The Shariah is mostly adopted by Sunni Muslims and it has various degrees of interpretations [severity].wmomin1 wrote:anyone what is the meaning of shariah?
Re: Prayer
In the 1st page of this thread, the concept of Shariah has been discussed. You may want to go there.wmomin1 wrote:anyone what is the meaning of shariah?
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From_Alamut
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am
Ya Ali Madad and As-Salamlykom
I was reading a Hadith of the Holy Prophet Mohammad( Peace be upon him and his Family) said that "Who dies without knowing the Imam of his time, dies an infidel."... Does that means that one who does not recognize his Imam of his time dies a Kufur? If yes, then what about those pious man who does not know his Imam of his time, do they really dies like a Kufur? Also, Mowla Ali (Peace be upon him and his family) said too "You are ordained to recognize the Imams (the right successors of the Holy Prophet) and to obey them." I believe that there is only one Siratul Mustaqim that is with Imam of the Time and His path, but I also believe that Sufism ( Islamic Mysticism) are also right. Because they reach the Enlightenment through getting their Byait spiritually[from the Imam] when they reach the universal through his/her power of mediation. So, do the other 72 sects [of Islam] dies like an infidels when they do not recognize their Imam of the time while they are ordered to recognize his Imam by the last messager of Allah(a.s.a)? Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that. They say that they are True Mulla of Masque then guiding people astray by teaching them about political than they teach them about their destination...
Please correct Me brothers and sisters if I am wrong.
Kindest Regard
I was reading a Hadith of the Holy Prophet Mohammad( Peace be upon him and his Family) said that "Who dies without knowing the Imam of his time, dies an infidel."... Does that means that one who does not recognize his Imam of his time dies a Kufur? If yes, then what about those pious man who does not know his Imam of his time, do they really dies like a Kufur? Also, Mowla Ali (Peace be upon him and his family) said too "You are ordained to recognize the Imams (the right successors of the Holy Prophet) and to obey them." I believe that there is only one Siratul Mustaqim that is with Imam of the Time and His path, but I also believe that Sufism ( Islamic Mysticism) are also right. Because they reach the Enlightenment through getting their Byait spiritually[from the Imam] when they reach the universal through his/her power of mediation. So, do the other 72 sects [of Islam] dies like an infidels when they do not recognize their Imam of the time while they are ordered to recognize his Imam by the last messager of Allah(a.s.a)? Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that. They say that they are True Mulla of Masque then guiding people astray by teaching them about political than they teach them about their destination...
Please correct Me brothers and sisters if I am wrong.
Kindest Regard
I think this is not the time to highlight the differences but rather to talk about similarities - ethics and values that unite us and tolerance of other faiths.From_Alamut wrote:Ya Ali Madad and As-Salamlykom
So, do the other 72 sects [of Islam] dies like an infidels when they do not recognize their Imam of the time while they are ordered to recognize his Imam by the last messager of Allah(a.s.a)? Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that. They say that they are True Mulla of Masque then guiding people astray by teaching them about political than they teach them about their destination...
Please correct Me brothers and sisters if I am wrong.
Kindest Regard
Mowlana Rumi says:
"Don't you see that the roads to Makkah are all different?...The roads are different, the goal one...When people come there, all quarrels or differences or disputes that happened along the road are resolved...Those who shouted at each other along the road 'you are wrong' or 'you are an infidel' forgot their differences when they come there because there, all hearts are in unison."
MSMS in his memoir says:
"Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding."
Excerpt from
Remarks at the Symposium: “Cosmopolitan Society, Human Safety and Rights in Plural and Peaceful Societies”
His Highness the Aga Khan
February 12, 2006
University of Évora
Évora, Portugal
"In the ethical realm—as in the educational realm—one of the great stumbling blocks is arrogance. Even the resurgence of religious feeling—which should be such a positive force--can become a negative influence when it turns into self-righteousness. All of the world’s great religions warn against this excess—yet in the name of those same religions
too many are tempted to play God themselves—rather than recognising their humility before the Divine.
A central element in a truly religious outlook, it seems to me, is the quality of personal humility—a recognition that strive as we might, we will still fall short of our ideals, that climb as we might, there will still be unexplored and mysterious peaks above us. It means recognizing our own creaturehood—and thus our human limitations. In that recognition,
it seems to me, lies our best protection against false prophecies and divisive dogmatism."
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From_Alamut
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am
Thank you, Kmaherali brother.
I really appreciate your comment, but I did not get my answer yet to my question.
I know what you mean with these good examples, but my qestion is what it means when the Holy Prophet (a.s.a) said "Who dies without knowing the Imam of his time, dies an infidel."? Does anybody in the face of the earth dies an infidel without reconizging his/her Imam of the Time except the Englightent saint but others? What is the deepest meaning of this hadith of Rasullah(a.s.a). I need a proof with a good explanation that in order I have a good comprehending of this hadith.
Kindest Regard
I really appreciate your comment, but I did not get my answer yet to my question.
I know what you mean with these good examples, but my qestion is what it means when the Holy Prophet (a.s.a) said "Who dies without knowing the Imam of his time, dies an infidel."? Does anybody in the face of the earth dies an infidel without reconizging his/her Imam of the Time except the Englightent saint but others? What is the deepest meaning of this hadith of Rasullah(a.s.a). I need a proof with a good explanation that in order I have a good comprehending of this hadith.
Kindest Regard
kmaherali wrote:I think this is not the time to highlight the differences but rather to talk about similarities - ethics and values that unite us and tolerance of other faiths.From_Alamut wrote:Ya Ali Madad and As-Salamlykom
So, do the other 72 sects [of Islam] dies like an infidels when they do not recognize their Imam of the time while they are ordered to recognize his Imam by the last messager of Allah(a.s.a)? Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that. They say that they are True Mulla of Masque then guiding people astray by teaching them about political than they teach them about their destination...
Please correct Me brothers and sisters if I am wrong.
Kindest Regard
Mowlana Rumi says:
"Don't you see that the roads to Makkah are all different?...The roads are different, the goal one...When people come there, all quarrels or differences or disputes that happened along the road are resolved...Those who shouted at each other along the road 'you are wrong' or 'you are an infidel' forgot their differences when they come there because there, all hearts are in unison."
MSMS in his memoir says:
"Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding."
Excerpt from
Remarks at the Symposium: “Cosmopolitan Society, Human Safety and Rights in Plural and Peaceful Societies”
His Highness the Aga Khan
February 12, 2006
University of Évora
Évora, Portugal
"In the ethical realm—as in the educational realm—one of the great stumbling blocks is arrogance. Even the resurgence of religious feeling—which should be such a positive force--can become a negative influence when it turns into self-righteousness. All of the world’s great religions warn against this excess—yet in the name of those same religions
too many are tempted to play God themselves—rather than recognising their humility before the Divine.
A central element in a truly religious outlook, it seems to me, is the quality of personal humility—a recognition that strive as we might, we will still fall short of our ideals, that climb as we might, there will still be unexplored and mysterious peaks above us. It means recognizing our own creaturehood—and thus our human limitations. In that recognition,
it seems to me, lies our best protection against false prophecies and divisive dogmatism."
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YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
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I believe this hadith is true that whoever does not recognize Imam of time dies an infidel.. however, that does not mean they go to hell. One of the interpretations of our faith is reincarnation and this holds true, this allows those pious ones without recognizing Imam of time to have more chances to do so. This body and lifetime is exoteric and we must understand that. The life of the ruh is everlasting.
So is growing a beard associated with the Shariah?From_Alamut wrote:Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that.
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From_Alamut
- Posts: 666
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:22 am
According to Sunnis interpretation of Shariah in Islam to grow beard, YES. Let me quote some of Sunnis Scholar what he says about Beard by Shariah.shak00 wrote:So is growing a beard associated with the Shariah?From_Alamut wrote:Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that.
"a man’s beard must be long enough to protrude from a fist clenched at the base of the chin. If it is not, he is subject to punishment."
For Example, look at Taliban when they used to rule Afghanistan, who ever beard was short or shaved, he was in big time trouble in his life.
Reference
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-i ... hariah.htm
I ask, because I assume all previous Imams, including 46th Imam Mowlana Shah Hasan Ali and 47th Imam Mowlana Shah Ali Shah had beards (see photos)From_Alamut wrote:According to Sunnis interpretation of Shariah in Islam to grow beard, YES. Let me quote some of Sunnis Scholar what he says about Beard by Shariah.shak00 wrote:So is growing a beard associated with the Shariah?From_Alamut wrote:Because they are guiding by a scholar who does not have a degree in their education nor they have knowledge of Marifat, they just grow their beard longer until reach their belly button, read the Quran and then says that they are perfect they don't need to be educated more then that.
"a man’s beard must be long enough to protrude from a fist clenched at the base of the chin. If it is not, he is subject to punishment."
For Example, look at Taliban when they used to rule Afghanistan, who ever beard was short or shaved, he was in big time trouble in his life.
Reference
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-i ... hariah.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aga_Khan_I_2.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aga_Khan_II_1.jpg
Also, all the Ismailis surrounding Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah (1885) when he was 7-8 years old seated on the Takht, all had beards too.
http://ismaili.net/sultan/msms32pt.jpg
Hazar Imam was asked the question about the beard by LBC...
Interview of H.H. The Aga Khan -
Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation International [LBC]
In Aleppo , Syria - November 8, 2001
LBC: Your Highness, when we say 'Imam', usually we imagine a bearded man with a turban. Is it that the Imam, amongst Ismailis, has a civilian look?
AK: No, I think that we wish to have a role that is balanced. I think that in Islam the notion of Imam is also a notion of a civil responsibility for those under his responsibility. And in the case of the Ismailis, I have a moral, and as far as I can exercise it in an efficient manner, a material responsibility, to assure the quality of life of the members of the Ismaili community. So, if you will, it is not only on religious grounds that I have to intervene, but also on ethical grounds. How does the ethic of Faith translate into daily life? Voilà!
Earlier, one member wrote that Shariah was abolished on 8 August 1164 by Imam Alazikrihi Salaam (23rd Imam).... But beards were still being grown up to 46th and 47th Imams. So, was Shariah still around during this time, in the Ismaili Faith?
Growing a beard is more of a culture and personal choice. I know Jewish Rabbis who grow a beard, it does not make them follower of Shariah. Christian friends also grow beard, at lest some of them.
Modern technology to shave has made things easy
maybe they can all shave now.
The movie "Khuda ke liye" - "In the name of God" is quite interesting, there is a debate between 2 Mullas on the subjects of misinterpreting these things.
All these people with beard [Buzurg, sage old wise man] in the photo with Sultan Muhammad shah never attended any namaz nor did any Ramadhan Roza in their life so the matter of folowing Shariah never arose for them not for any of the people who are in the category where "only the faith of you forefather wil enable you to .... fill in the blank"
Culture and folklore should not be confused with religion.
Modern technology to shave has made things easy
maybe they can all shave now.The movie "Khuda ke liye" - "In the name of God" is quite interesting, there is a debate between 2 Mullas on the subjects of misinterpreting these things.
All these people with beard [Buzurg, sage old wise man] in the photo with Sultan Muhammad shah never attended any namaz nor did any Ramadhan Roza in their life so the matter of folowing Shariah never arose for them not for any of the people who are in the category where "only the faith of you forefather wil enable you to .... fill in the blank"
Culture and folklore should not be confused with religion.
There is an interesting blog on forms of prayer at:
http://blog.farashaeuker.com/2009/03/mo ... rayer.html
Modes of Prayer
The forms of the Islamic prayer are ubiquitous. One would naturally think this prayer is divinely sanctioned, yet it is not. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it describe the forms of the prayer. It in fact doesn't even command praying five times per day. The extent of the prayer instructions in the Qur'an are: 1. To pray, and 2. To pray at multiple times of the day.
Seeing as how the Qur'an doesn't command one how to pray, the majority of the Muslim community have assumed that this information comes from the hadith literature. To a certain extent that is correct. The hadith certainly contains more information regarding prayer, than does the Qur'an. I doubt, however any practicing Muslim alive today learned to pray from reading the hadith. Even the salafists must rely on scholars for instruction, for every part of the prayer, which is clarified by the hadith, there are an equal or greater number of contradictory reports. Clearly, regarding prayer, the hadith literature isn't all its cracked up to be.
So, basically the prayer relied upon by Muslims, is simply the figment of a scholars imagination? Actually I wouldn't put it quite like that, though it was certainly the scholars, such as Shafi, Malik, et al., who solidified the prayer into its current canonized forms. The scholars most likely arrived at their conclusions through a very selective use of hadith, combined with the practice of the community. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of their intentions, particularly since a uniform mode of prayer, fosters a sense of unity among disparate sections of the community.
If one looks closely enough, they shall see that very little of the Muslim prayer is original to Islam; the various pieces being culled from diverse traditions; primarily the Jewish, Zoroastrian, and Arabian Pagan faiths. Clearly communal prayer must be uniform, for if each person prays their own way, chaos would ensue. Judging from the facts at hand, I see little reason to stick to the classical Muslim prayer forms, when one is praying alone. In fact I look upon the prayer not as an ideal, but as the bare minimum, which can be replaced by invocation. When one is praying alone, the forms are not of the greatest importance, but the substance. It would perhaps be an entirely different matter if certain forms of prayer were prescribed by the Qur'an, but they are not. Allah's infinite mercy has left it up to us to worship as we please, for we know which forms work best for ourselves, and God knows our intentions.
"Verily the ritual prayer preserveth from iniquity and abomination; but the remembrance of God is greater" -- Qur'an 29:45
"The principles of the (true) religions are all based on certain unshakable foundations, including abstinence or inner self-restraint; charity; prayer and invocation; and purity of intention and sincerity toward God...
With prayer and invocations, the essential condition is to focus one' s attention on the divine Source, not simply to repeat certain phrases or other ritual prescriptions. And true invocations are when we truly remember God and our true selves, so as to avoid heedlessness...
All prayers, invocations and all the rest - all of these can be summed up as maintaining that state of continual attention on God, and trying to learn what we must do in order to please God...
For the very principle of prayer is purpose and intention. Whatever the religion or form of worship, to have your attention on God, to whatever degree, is accepted--whatever the words may be...
Following the path of spiritual perfection necessarily requires a connection (with God), and that spiritual rank cannot be acquired through artificial methods.... Eventually each person must experience for himself a state of illumination; then, through that illumination, he will grasp the manifestation of the Truth...
That (higher spiritual) world is not concerned with the body, but with the angelic soul. So we must orient our soul toward that world, and once we have done that, the divine Source Itself will arrange the rest....
It is sufficient for us to realize that we must have this Attention (toward the Source), and then the rest will take care of itself. But the essential thing is this initial Attention. Once a person has fulfilled all the (divine) orders, the right ways will naturally open for them, and those ways will bring this Attention." -- Ostad Elahi
http://blog.farashaeuker.com/2009/03/mo ... rayer.html
Modes of Prayer
The forms of the Islamic prayer are ubiquitous. One would naturally think this prayer is divinely sanctioned, yet it is not. Nowhere in the Qur'an does it describe the forms of the prayer. It in fact doesn't even command praying five times per day. The extent of the prayer instructions in the Qur'an are: 1. To pray, and 2. To pray at multiple times of the day.
Seeing as how the Qur'an doesn't command one how to pray, the majority of the Muslim community have assumed that this information comes from the hadith literature. To a certain extent that is correct. The hadith certainly contains more information regarding prayer, than does the Qur'an. I doubt, however any practicing Muslim alive today learned to pray from reading the hadith. Even the salafists must rely on scholars for instruction, for every part of the prayer, which is clarified by the hadith, there are an equal or greater number of contradictory reports. Clearly, regarding prayer, the hadith literature isn't all its cracked up to be.
So, basically the prayer relied upon by Muslims, is simply the figment of a scholars imagination? Actually I wouldn't put it quite like that, though it was certainly the scholars, such as Shafi, Malik, et al., who solidified the prayer into its current canonized forms. The scholars most likely arrived at their conclusions through a very selective use of hadith, combined with the practice of the community. I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of their intentions, particularly since a uniform mode of prayer, fosters a sense of unity among disparate sections of the community.
If one looks closely enough, they shall see that very little of the Muslim prayer is original to Islam; the various pieces being culled from diverse traditions; primarily the Jewish, Zoroastrian, and Arabian Pagan faiths. Clearly communal prayer must be uniform, for if each person prays their own way, chaos would ensue. Judging from the facts at hand, I see little reason to stick to the classical Muslim prayer forms, when one is praying alone. In fact I look upon the prayer not as an ideal, but as the bare minimum, which can be replaced by invocation. When one is praying alone, the forms are not of the greatest importance, but the substance. It would perhaps be an entirely different matter if certain forms of prayer were prescribed by the Qur'an, but they are not. Allah's infinite mercy has left it up to us to worship as we please, for we know which forms work best for ourselves, and God knows our intentions.
"Verily the ritual prayer preserveth from iniquity and abomination; but the remembrance of God is greater" -- Qur'an 29:45
"The principles of the (true) religions are all based on certain unshakable foundations, including abstinence or inner self-restraint; charity; prayer and invocation; and purity of intention and sincerity toward God...
With prayer and invocations, the essential condition is to focus one' s attention on the divine Source, not simply to repeat certain phrases or other ritual prescriptions. And true invocations are when we truly remember God and our true selves, so as to avoid heedlessness...
All prayers, invocations and all the rest - all of these can be summed up as maintaining that state of continual attention on God, and trying to learn what we must do in order to please God...
For the very principle of prayer is purpose and intention. Whatever the religion or form of worship, to have your attention on God, to whatever degree, is accepted--whatever the words may be...
Following the path of spiritual perfection necessarily requires a connection (with God), and that spiritual rank cannot be acquired through artificial methods.... Eventually each person must experience for himself a state of illumination; then, through that illumination, he will grasp the manifestation of the Truth...
That (higher spiritual) world is not concerned with the body, but with the angelic soul. So we must orient our soul toward that world, and once we have done that, the divine Source Itself will arrange the rest....
It is sufficient for us to realize that we must have this Attention (toward the Source), and then the rest will take care of itself. But the essential thing is this initial Attention. Once a person has fulfilled all the (divine) orders, the right ways will naturally open for them, and those ways will bring this Attention." -- Ostad Elahi