AIGLEMONT 13 DEC. 2008 HYDAYAT

Post by **Admin** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:00 am

Post here your discussions on various issues in the special message.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:46 am

There were 50 ways of taking the Jamat out of poverty which were mentioned and which will be public projects so there is no objection in discussing this kind of issues in which we have all, ismailis and non-Ismailis, to contribute anyway.

When Imam says for example that ethic is important, he says the same in his speech also so discussing concepts that are mentioned in Farmans but which are publicly discussed by the Imam are important for all of us.

You may recall that the official site theismaili even featured the Aiglemont farman on the opening of Jubilee [which we disapprove and which may have been removed subsequently from the site] and may also feature this one so please no need to create controversies over this.

We are not talking here about posting any Farmans. [Which in anyway are not allowed on this site]

Admin

samirp469 · Post by **samirp469** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:17 am

i fully agreed with u. as this type of things are not supposed to be discussed in public. i've missed the golden oppurtunityto heard this firman in JK. and i am told that this is one of the most comprehensive firman MHI has ever made soif anybody is willing to explain me the firman kindly mail me to [email protected]. thanx in advance

seven.lights · Post by **seven.lights** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:52 am

I fully agree with admin. This particular Firman marks a beginning of the new era for the ismaili community. This Firman paves the way for some of the most drastic changes coming our way in the next decade or so, during the time of MHI and is preparing us for the changing times and the next Joma of the Imam.

For those of you who are scratching their heads as to what am I saying, you should get Alwaez Abu Ali's waez on this topic where he as very clearly said that this change is coming. So don't be startled or baffled by it. Prepare yourself for the change.

Unfortunately, Alwaez Abu Ali is not among us to witness the change he spoke about in his waezes, which is happening almost in his life time. May be he might have been able to explain MHI's this Firman to the jamat in a context that we could understand.

For those of you, who want to follow this change, I will recommend you to listen to that waez of Alwaez Abu Ali.

(Ps: I don't sell Alwaez Abu Ali's or anybody's waezes)

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:39 am

Update from theismaili.org

The commemoration of Mawlana Hazar Imam’s Golden Jubilee draws to a close

Mawlana Hazar Imam on the occasion of his Golden Jubilee. Photo: AKDN/Aziz Islamshah

The commemoration of Mawlana Hazar Imam’s Golden Jubilee, marking 50 years since he became the 49th hereditary Imam of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims, drew to a close on Mawlana Hazar Imam’s birthday, 13 December 2008.

A representative delegation of leaders of the Jamat from around the world gathered at Mawlana Hazar Imam’s residence at Aiglemont, France to mark the occasion. Hazar Imam reviewed the goals that had been established at the outset of the Golden Jubilee, and set out a vision for addressing issues of importance to the Jamat’s future well-being and progress.

Jamats across the world gathered to celebrate this occasion and express gratitude for the opportunity to be part of the Golden Jubilee. A film capturing highlights of the Golden Jubilee period was also shown to Jamats worldwide, marking the Jubilee’s culmination.

The Golden Jubilee had commenced on 11 July 2007 with an inaugural ceremony at Aiglemont, where past and present Jamati leaders gathered to pay homage to Mawlana Hazar Imam on behalf of the global Jamat. In the 18 months that followed, Hazar Imam travelled to 22 countries at the invitation of their respective governments to commemorate this important milestone and to renew the Imamat’s commitment to development activities in these countries.

Mawlana Hazar Imam was welcomed by heads of state and senior government leaders with whom he consulted on potential areas of collaboration between government, civil society institutions, and the Ismaili Imamat and Aga Khan Development Network. In some countries, new Imamat endeavours were initiated and new agreements of cooperation and partnership were formed.

Hazar Imam also granted Golden Jubilee Darbars to Jamats around the world. These historic events were occasions of great excitement, and were shared and celebrated by Ismailis across the world.

http://www.theismaili.org/cms/649/The-c ... ana-Hazar-

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:32 pm

the Imam himself has said change will happen and change is good. [can't recall the exact date] and this is why we need an Imam of the Time to guide us through the changing time, hopefully ahead of it.

And we need of course leaders to implement these changes with respect to the spirit of the guidance.

remember even our constitution is not a rigid document and it also will change soon.

Nagib

salmanali786 · Post by **salmanali786** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:40 pm

Nagib I found one waez below.. but that has details about Sultan Mohd Shah Aley waslaam's Golden Jubliee but alot of interesting details about future... I would love to get a link of latest Abu Aly's Waez on Golden Jubliee.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/12801

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:17 am

Ya Ali Madad,
Do any one has info regarding this:
After few months will there be complete new dua (or namaz) that will replace the existing one OR there will be certain changes in existing Dua?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 1:09 pm

star_munir wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
Do any one has info regarding this:
After few months will there be complete new dua (or namaz) that will replace the existing one OR there will be certain changes in existing Dua?

I think if the new Ismaili Namaz was meant to replace the Dua, then MHI would have indicated that as it would signify a major change. My take is that the new Ismaili Namaz is available for cases where Jamati members in certain situations may be required to perform Namaz and hence the Ismaili version of it being available....

imranramji2008 · Post by **imranramji2008** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:20 pm

I think if the new Ismaili Namaz was meant to replace the Dua, then MHI would have indicated that as it would signify a major change. My take is that the new Ismaili Namaz is available for cases where Jamati members in certain situations may be required to perform Namaz and hence the Ismaili version of it being available....[/quote]

You know somthing i think you are wrong. i really think that mowla wants to replace the dua with the namaz. Remember we did say namaz during the glorious fatimid times with the list of Imamat at the end and if you remember our dua we have was replaced by the gujrati dua which every one was surprised with. infact I dont think any one of us should be suprised if we do start saying an "ismaili namaz". It is a great way to build bridges between us and other schools of thought. Also i wouldnt be surprised if our jamat khana was open to non ismailis also because it is another way to build bridges between communities and i think mowla wants to do that.

imranramji2008 · Post by **imranramji2008** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:23 pm

star_munir wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
Do any one has info regarding this:
After few months will there be complete new dua (or namaz) that will replace the existing one OR there will be certain changes in existing Dua?

star munar i think it will completly replace our dua. Remember we had an old dua and this dua replaced the old one. I think we will say namaz like we did in the fatimid times

imranramji2008 · Post by **imranramji2008** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:26 pm

kmaherali wrote:
star_munir wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
Do any one has info regarding this:
After few months will there be complete new dua (or namaz) that will replace the existing one OR there will be certain changes in existing Dua?
I think if the new Ismaili Namaz was meant to replace the Dua, then MHI would have indicated that as it would signify a major change. My take is that the new Ismaili Namaz is available for cases where Jamati members in certain situations may be required to perform Namaz and hence the Ismaili version of it being available....

first off i think MHI has indicated it to be a major change by saying he has been studying other schools of thoughts. Also their is no reason to hide our faith mowla doesnt wants us to do that.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:42 pm

imranramji2008 wrote:star munar i think it will completly replace our dua. Remember we had an old dua and this dua replaced the old one. I think we will say namaz like we did in the fatimid times

MHI says in his Farman:

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life."

There is an indication that practices that are specific to our Tariqah (Dua) will coexist with practices that are part of the Sharia (Namaz). Mowlana also talks about denominational specificities in the context of the Sharia practices. From this I infer that the Ismaili Namaz will reflect our denominational specificity. Hence we will have our Dua co-existing with the Namaz as indicated by MHI....

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:35 am

imranramji2008 wrote: Well then personally i think the namaz will become manditory and our dua will replace the tasbih. IT SHOULD BE INTRESTING TO NOTE HWO THIS WHOLE THING WILL COME TO PLAY

In my opinion, Dua will always remain mandatory. Namaz will be optional depending upon the context as it has always been through out our history except that recently we did not have our own Ismaili Namaz and now we have it, that is the only difference. I do not foresee any other changes in our tariqah practices.

imranramji2008 · Post by **imranramji2008** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:00 am

kmaherali wrote:
imranramji2008 wrote: Well then personally i think the namaz will become manditory and our dua will replace the tasbih. IT SHOULD BE INTRESTING TO NOTE HWO THIS WHOLE THING WILL COME TO PLAY
In my opinion, Dua will always remain mandatory. Namaz will be optional depending upon the context as it has always been through out our history except that recently we did not have our own Ismaili Namaz and now we have it, that is the only difference. I do not foresee any other changes in our tariqah practices.

actually kmaherali we did have our own ismaili namaz during the fatimid times. We said namaz and at the end had all of our imams and did sajodidar at the end of it. do some research

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:27 am

imranramji2008 wrote:actually kmaherali we did have our own ismaili namaz during the fatimid times. We said namaz and at the end had all of our imams and did sajodidar at the end of it. do some research

If you read my note, I said recently we have not had our Ismaili Namaz. I am not talking about Fatimid period. What about all the centuries after the Fatimid period? I believe many Ismailis throughout our history have opted to recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only; so now they have an Ismaili Namaz instead of one of another denomination.

imranramji2008 · Post by **imranramji2008** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:46 am

kmaherali wrote:
imranramji2008 wrote:actually kmaherali we did have our own ismaili namaz during the fatimid times. We said namaz and at the end had all of our imams and did sajodidar at the end of it. do some research
If you read my note, I said recently we have not had our Ismaili Namaz. I am not talking about Fatimid period. What about all the centuries after the Fatimid period? I believe many Ismailis throughout our history have opted to recite Namaz albeit on Fridays only; so now they have an Ismaili Namaz instead of one of another denomination.

Yes recently we have not had an ismaili namaz. You are correct but that doesnt means we arent gonna have one. Remember our faith is to change along with the times. SO saying that we are always gonna recite dua might be wrong. i was recently talking to my moms uncle's dad who was present at the homage ceremony on 13 th decemeber and he is doing alot with hazar imam. He wouldnt tell me alot of things but he did say their were going to be major changes. When i asked for more info on what kind of changes he just smiled and said when the time was right you would know. I asked him does this has to do with namaz. He said sort of but that is not the only changes we are going to have some traditions like chirag-i-rawshan and more reading of the quranic ayats were going to take place and then he said he couldnt share any more information with me and i just had to wait.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:06 am

imranramji2008 wrote: Yes recently we have not had an ismaili namaz. You are correct but that doesnt means we arent gonna have one. Remember our faith is to change along with the times.

Yes we are going to have one and that is what MHI has said in his Farman. We will not have to recite a Namaz of another denomination if we opt to do so. That is the only change that I can foresee. Whatever the Imam had to tell the Jamat, he has done so in his very comprehensive guidance. I do not think there was anything else that would have been left out exclusively for the leaders....

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:17 am

imranramji2008 wrote: I dont know why so many people are against the namaz being replaced by an ismaili namaz. I dont think it is a bad thing. My mom's uncle's dad has told me stuff that i have shared it with you and by the looks of it their will be changes and
some one has said it before akbu ali missionary has predicted changes in ismaili faith we should be ready for them

I don't think anyone is against an Ismaili Namaz replacing a Namaz of another denomination. Isn't it better for an Ismaili to recite a Namaz which reflects our own Shia Ismaili belief in the living Imam as opposed to reciting a Sunni Namaz?

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:45 am

The Imam has made clear that Dua has coexisted with Namaz and other forms of prayers. It still will continue to exist. Nothing in Hazar Imam's farman says it won't. So there is no need to invent.

Those who are looking for a situation where they will be performing Namaz side by side with their beloved Sunni friends will be disappointed, no Sunni will ever recite an Ismaili Namaz containing the centrality of Imamat . In fact they will be the first one to critise and say that it does not respect the Sunnah - Halleluya!.

nagib

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:40 pm

nagib wrote: Those who are looking for a situation where they will be performing Namaz side by side with their beloved Sunni friends will be disappointed, no Sunni will ever recite an Ismaili Namaz containing the centrality of Imamat . In fact they will be the first one to critise and say that it does not respect the Sunnah - Halleluya!.

nagib

As Indicated by MHI, there are variations in Namaz reflecting specificities of each denomination and sometimes there are situations where all the madhaib join together and say their Namaz together, Hajj for example. In these situations the entire Namaz is not recited aloud but rather the takbeer and the main actions are performed together, the rest is all in silence at a personal level. One could choose his own Ayats of the Quran to recite for example....

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:14 pm

We Ismaili did have our own namaz, the namaz Imam as-Sadiq taught that Twelvers (relatively) have kept in tact was the namaz of our community, no more theirs than ours. Later in Fatimid times I think it did take a more Sunni turn (and was instructed by the da'i), as the Bohra I believe pray with their hands crossed? I'm unsure if one could call Fatimid (and later shariah implementations after) as Ismaili namaz, but certainly the namaz practiced during as-Sadiq's time was an Ismaili namaz. I'm interested in seeing if perhaps we will see a version of namaz as done by the Shi'a of as-Sadiq's time, though I think it's unlikely.

Interestingly, a more Shi'a style of prayer does actually seem much more historically accurate. For example, the reason the Maliki school of Sunni law also pray with their hands to their side, is because Malik ibn Anas believed that the people of Medina were a living Sunnah, and at that period of time the people of Medina themselves prayed with their hands to their sides. However, I believe they look straight forward to the kaaba instead of to the ground, and also don't make use of the turbah (stone, usually from Karbala) as the Twelver do. Twelvers are also allowed to recite a dua in the second rakat (done by Sunnis only in special times), and recite something else besides Fatiha in the third and fourth rakat of salaat, along with a multitude of other minor differences.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:27 pm

imranramji2008 wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
star_munir wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
Do any one has info regarding this:
After few months will there be complete new dua (or namaz) that will replace the existing one OR there will be certain changes in existing Dua?
I think if the new Ismaili Namaz was meant to replace the Dua, then MHI would have indicated that as it would signify a major change. My take is that the new Ismaili Namaz is available for cases where Jamati members in certain situations may be required to perform Namaz and hence the Ismaili version of it being available....
first off i think MHI has indicated it to be a major change by saying he has been studying other schools of thoughts. Also their is no reason to hide our faith mowla doesnt wants us to do that.

Namaz is from part of our history, we were just having our Holy Dua for a short period, I mean because of the conversion in India and other places, and for them I think we have to make a Dua in their language to their understanding and so they can easly practice their faith too, as well as time goes through slowly and when the murids understand their home language Holy Dua by the heart, then the Holy Authority Imam(a.s.a) He ordered to change it into more easier way and shorter in Arabic but more powerful Dua and today it is the time that we have to move forward and go back to our history and make our prayer as universal prayer, so Inshallah that our other Muslim brothers "Ummah" can impress Ismailsm faith as the True Muslim who is with the Imam of the time, direct descending of Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace be him up and his family)..

Please correct me brothers and sisters if I am wrong with my opinion..

Kindest Regard

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:12 pm

From_Alamut wrote:Namaz is from part of our history, we were just having our Holy Dua for a short period, I mean because of the conversion in India and other places, and for them I think we have to make a Dua in their language to their understanding and so they can easly practice their faith too, as well as time goes through slowly and when the murids understand their home language Holy Dua by the heart, then the Holy Authority Imam(a.s.a) He ordered to change it into more easier way and shorter in Arabic but more powerful Dua and today it is the time that we have to move forward and go back to our history and make our prayer as universal prayer, so Inshallah that our other Muslim brothers "Ummah" can impress Ismailsm faith as the True Muslim who is with the Imam of the time, direct descending of Holy Prophet Mohammad (peace be him up and his family)..

Please correct me brothers and sisters if I am wrong with my opinion..

Kindest Regard

MHI says in his Farman:

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life."

Does not that indicate that we always had practices specific to our tariqah (Dua) and the practice common to all Muslimas (Namaz)? So our Dua is not only for a short period on the contrary the Ismaili Namaz was only for a short period. The practices specific to our tariqah will always exist whereas the need to practice the Sharia will depend upon the context. At present because of the need to build bridges, we need to compliment our Dua with Ismaili Namaz, and hence the co-existence indicated by MHI.

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:36 pm

kmaherali is correct! Duas aren't a new thing in our faith.

Everyone should recall that to this day, duas play a very important role in both the Zaidi Shi'a and Twelver Shi'a faith. Just look at Imam Zainul'Abideen's beautiful collection of duas, "Sahifa al-Sajjadiyya", which is read to this day by both Zaidi Shi'a and Twelver Shi'a. Also, it is the Twelvers who run and own http://www.duas.org, with duas from Khidr and the Twelve Imams.

And I am unsure if we would use Fatimid salah like the Bohra, which I believe was more Sunni-like because of issues with Sunni empires. These days the differences between Sunni and Shi'a prayer are more obvious and respected, we would be able to pray as Shi'a originally prayed. But, Allah knows best!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:01 pm

enzuru wrote:And I am unsure if we would use Fatimid salah like the Bohra, which I believe was more Sunni-like because of issues with Sunni empires. These days the differences between Sunni and Shi'a prayer are more obvious and respected, we would be able to pray as Shi'a originally prayed. But, Allah knows best!

At present there is no set standard for Namaz as different denominations have evolved different forms. It would not surprise me that the new Ismaili Namaz is gradually adopted as the standard (with the ommision/substitution of references to Imamat) by other denominations!

enzuru · Post by **enzuru** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:14 pm

kmaherali wrote:
enzuru wrote:And I am unsure if we would use Fatimid salah like the Bohra, which I believe was more Sunni-like because of issues with Sunni empires. These days the differences between Sunni and Shi'a prayer are more obvious and respected, we would be able to pray as Shi'a originally prayed. But, Allah knows best!
At present there is no set standard for Namaz as different denominations have evolved different forms. It would not surprise me that the new Ismaili Namaz is gradually adopted as the standard (with the ommision/substitution of references to Imamat) by other denominations!

Why would you say that? We're unique in that we don't follow any form of salah simply because it is the historical form, while all schools of law, whether in Sunni Islam or Zaidi-Twelver Shi'a Islam, attempt to historically validate their salah through hadith and risalah exegesis. I'm not sure why they would adopt ours unless ours does return to a historical validity they've been seeking!

Yasin49 · Post by **Yasin49** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:41 am

the Bohoras have been having the fatimid namaz for centuries it is different from suni version but in the end like our dua it has the imams names Hazr Imam will guide and only he can and will decide what form of prayer we will use.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:39 am

Yasin49 wrote:the Bohoras have been having the fatimid namaz for centuries it is different from suni version but in the end like our dua it has the imams names Hazr Imam will guide and only he can and will decide what form of prayer we will use.

We do not need to compare ourselves or be guided by any other tariqah. We are unique guided by a living Imam and have our own history of the practice of faith which the Imam has clearly indicated with the Dua and Namaz co-existing always. The only change is that the Namaz will be an Ismaili Namaz and not any other.

From_Alamut · Post by **From_Alamut** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:39 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Yasin49 wrote:the Bohoras have been having the fatimid namaz for centuries it is different from suni version but in the end like our dua it has the imams names Hazr Imam will guide and only he can and will decide what form of prayer we will use.
We do not need to compare ourselves or be guided by any other tariqah. We are unique guided by a living Imam and have our own history of the practice of faith which the Imam has clearly indicated with the Dua and Namaz co-existing always. The only change is that the Namaz will be an Ismaili Namaz and not any other.

I just wanted to mention this is that Our beloved Imam(khudavan) of the time is the Holy and only Divine Authority, He can do anything He wants, I mean Islam is only His, since He is the direct descending of Prophet Mohammad(Peace be upon him and his family).

Without His[Imam of the Time] blessing, I don't believe in anything at all. I thank Allah for He send us His manifestation Light and the best guidance amount mankind.

Here is some Hadith of the Holy Prophet (a.s.a) based on the Imamat.

*"As the stars in the sky are the source of guidance to the travelers, the Holy Ones of my Ahl al Bayt (the Imams descended from the Prophet's family) are the source of guidance for the people. And, as the stars will remain in the sky until the day of judgment, the earth will never be without a Divine Guide from my Ahl al Bayt, that is an Imam".

*"Who dies without knowing the imam of his time, dies an infidel ."

*"I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate
(door) of that city. Whoever wishes to enter
that city he should come through its gate"

*“ I am leaving behind me two important things: the Quran and
the Ahl al-bayt. If you follow them both, you will never go astray.”

The Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him and his Ahl al-Bayt) declared at Ghadir Khumm by holding up the hand of Imam Ali (a.s):

*“He of whomever I am the Master-Lord (Mowla), Ali is his Master-Lord (Mowla). O Allah, befriend whosoever befriends him and be the enemy of whosoever is hostile to him.”

*“Believe, therefore, in Allah and his Messenger, and in the Light
which we have send down. And Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.”

Holy Qur’an 64:8

*O mankind! Verily
There hath come to you
A convincing proof
From your Lord:
For we have sent unto you
A light (that is) manifest.

Holy Qur’an 4:174

*“And we have vested everything in the manifest Imam.” (Qur’an 36: 12)

Also, the Holy Quran said "O ye who believe! obey Allah, obey the Messenger, and Obey those who are in the authority from amount you.(5: 92).

www.ismaili.net

AIGLEMONT 13 DEC. 2008 HYDAYAT

AIGLEMONT 13 DEC. 2008 HYDAYAT

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