Imam and Big Bang

[kandani]

It has been posted here:

"Asal ma kaye nathoo theare mowla Murtaza Ali ek nanu roop dhariu"

Can someone PM or email me the full reference (i.e. name, date, place) and context of this Farman of Imam SMS in KIM.

Does this imply the physical presence of Imam prior to the Big Bang (when the Universe was one small particle)?

[nashvelshi]

Could you translate that farman(line) into English as precisely as you can.
Thanks.

[star_munir]

Kalam-e-Imam-e-Mubin Pg 13, Date: 15-10-1885

[kmaherali]

The Farman was made in Mumbai on 15th Oct. 1885 (when the Imam was nine years old)

The exact words in Gujerati are:

"Asal ka(n)hi nahi hatu(n) tyaare Murtaza Ali e naanu(n) rup dhaarann karyu hatu(n)."

Which translates as:

In the beginning when there was nothing, Murtaza Ali assumed a small form.

[nashvelshi]

Thanks for the translation.

So can one, using current knowledge of science and cosmology, make sense of this farman or has the science not reached that level of sophistication yet?

[nashvelshi]

Could this farman also have some relation to a saying of Hazrat Ali regarding the surat-ul fateha in which he says(perhaps someone who knows about it could post it here) that everything that is, is contained in the surat-ul- fateha; that everything in the surat-ul fateha is contained in the first word 'bismillah'; that everything in the bismillah is contained in the 'bi' of 'bismillah'; that everything in the 'bi' is contained in the diacritical point(arabic grammar) at the beginning of the 'bi'; and that regarding the diacritical point: " I am the diacritical point"?

[kmaherali]

Thanks for the translation.

So can one, using current knowledge of science and cosmology, make sense of this farman or has the science not reached that level of sophistication yet?

You are welcome! I do not see any problem about this Farman. My interpretation of it is that it is another way of saying that Murtazali is the essence who assumed a small form before creation. In one of the Hidayats to the IIS scholars, MHI said that he was the Mazhar of the essence of God using the term Mazhar-i-Dhat-i-Allahi. In another Farman MHI says:

"In the concept of Islam, Allah is eternal, His creation knows no limit in time, nor in form and as a result He creates when He will, when He wishes, when He wills, how he wishes, where He wishes and man's perception of science is therefore nothing more than the perception of God's creation, His continuous creation, and there is no conflict between Islam and science but at the same time do not make the mistake of becoming vain and proud, simply because technology surrounds you. On the contrary, those who are most qualified in scientific subjects today are often the most humble and the most convinced in their attitude to the existence of Allah and therefore as you prepare for the future, do not shun the technological era, but do not make the mistake of thinking that, that era is the creation of man." (Silver Jubilee Mulaqat, NewYork, June 14th, 1983)

Since science is the product of Allah's creation, it cannot fathom the mysteries of 'beyond creation'. For that one would need to transcend creation through Ibadat and attain the understanding through gnosis.

[kandani]

Karim,

What was the context of this 1885 Farman, i.e. what did he say before and after this quote.

Perhaps Imam was alluding the Big Bang?

[kmaherali]

Karim,

What was the context of this 1885 Farman, i.e. what did he say before and after this quote.

Perhaps Imam was alluding the Big Bang?

This Farman is entirely about the greatness of Hazart Ali.

It begins with "See the greatness of Murtaza Ali" and then there is an anecdote. Then he says:

"Before Nabi Muhammad, Hazarat Ali was with all prophets in batin and with Nabi Muhammad he was present in zaher. In the beginning when there was nothing, Murtaza Ali assumed a small form."

Then there is another anecdote about Hazarat Ali. No mention about creation.

[nashvelshi]

" In the beginning when there was nothing, Murtaza Ali assumed a small form".

If, by "a small form", one means a small form of matter, then it might possibly have a link to the current scientific concept of the big bang, as kandani is enquiring over.

This could be the interface between spirit and matter wherein the the celestial plan of the universe already exists as a blueprint in the 'Pen', or 'Universal Intellect' or 'al-Sabiq', but is about to be composed into a material form by the 'Tablet' or 'Universal Soul" or 'al-Tali'.

The scientific conception of the big bang refers to a universe that is now expanding but which once(about 14 billion years ago) existed only as a miniscule 'singularity', which is a point that is material in nature and infinitesmally small, but is of infinitely high density and mass and infinitely high temperature. From this 'singularity' comes what we percieve around us today.

I am currently researching the topic and will have more to say about the universe from this 'singularity' up to the first few minutes of its existence. I will post it, however, on the 'link between science and religion' thread
because I think it is more relevant for that thread.

[logical]

" In the beginning when there was nothing, Murtaza Ali assumed a small form".

Reflect upon this:

Before the Big Bang:
When He was Everything (One-ness)
There was Nothing

After the Big Bang:
Once I was one with my Beloved
then, I got separated & scattered
Now, the lover longs to become one with the Beloved.

After the Big Crunch:
Nothing will exist but His Essence or Nur or Ali.

[karimqazi]

YAM to All,

I am watching this topic closely, and i will give you one more farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah in which he graciously said...

"Thame asal ma hata, aase karore waras phela puche thame alame zarra ma aviya, vees karore waras thi thamara badan bandana che"

In english this means that "You were in true form 800 million years ago and in that time which was 600 million years you were in the form of an atom, and then from 200 million years you became in your current form." **

** the figure 600 million comes from 800 minus 200, FYI just want to make myself clear.

I might be off on the translation beacause english is not my first language.

May Mowla Bless You All and Enlighten Your Soul