IMAMAT Proofs of existence and need for Imamat

[mahebubchatur]

In his book, al-Masabih fi Ithbat al-Imama (pp.80-95), the author produces fourteen proofs of of lmamate. ..(which has existed since time immemorial....even Abraham was also an IMAM for Mankind and promised that this Imamat will continue as a Covenant with his Posterity.
The following is a summary of them. (Quoted in Makarem, Doctrine, pp. 37-39.)

1. The Messenger was entrusted with conveying the divine Message not only to those who were contemporary to him, but to all mankind. Men, on the other hand, are notable to apprehend this Message at once; furthermore the Messenger, in his limited lifetime, was notable to convey the divine Message to those people who came into existence after his death.Therefore, an Imam must have been appointed by the Messenger, in order to carry on the Message. Likewise such Imam must appoint as uccessor to himself to continue the guidance of mankind to truth.

2. An Imam must always be present to preserve the divine Message conveyed by the Prophet from distortion and alteration.
3. An Imam must always be present to interpret properly the Quran, the verses of which are liable to be misunderstood in many different ways, due to the fact that Arabic words may have more than one meaning.

4. Since men have different natures and desires, there should always be an lmam among them who would give them the proper judgment, just as the Prophet used to do during his lifetime in conformity with the Quranic verse: “But no, by the Lord! They will not believe till they make thee the judge regarding the disagreement between them, then they shall find in themselves no impediment touching thy verdict, but shall surrender in full submission.” — Quran 4:65

5. Since God sent a Messenger to the Community to safeguard it, and since the Community during the Prophet’s lifetime was by no means privileged over any other Community after the Prophet; God must then procure to such Communities an Imam who could safeguard and guide them, as the Prophet used to do regarding the Community during his lifetime.

6. Due to his limited lifetime, the Prophet was not able to call all mankind to Islam, yet God has commanded in the Quran that allmankind be called to Islam. He said,
“Call thou to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and good admonition.” — Quran 16:125
Therefore, an Imam should always be present to undertake this task after the Prophet.

7. Also an Imam should always be present so that he may, after the Prophet, fulfill another divine command mentioned in the Quran:
“Take of their wealth a free will offering, to purify them and to cleanse them thereby.” — Quran 9:103

8. The ever-presence of an Imam is imperative so that he may look after the Sharia and implement its enjoinments after the Prophet, especially because of the necessity of implementing the Sharia so that disorder among mankind may be avoided.

9. The following Quranic verse,
“If you should quarrel about anything, refer it to God and the Messenger” — Quran 4:59
necessitates the presence of an Imam after the Prophet so that the believers may refer to him what they have quarrelled about.

10. God said in the Quran,
“And whatever you are at variance on, the judgment thereof belongs to God.” — Quran 42:10
He did not say, ‘Whatever you are at variance on, the judgment thereof belongs to you.’ Hence God forbade the Community to give personal judgments. Therefore, an Imam must be appointed after the Prophet, in order to give the judgment on whatever the Community is at variance on.

11. God also said,
“On the day when We shall call all men with their Imam ...” — Quran 17:71
Therefore an Imam should at all times be present, or else God’s saying would be wrong.

12. By saying,
“O believers, obey God, and obey the Messenger and those inauthority among you” — Quran 4:59,
God enjoined on all the believers three things that are complementary to each other, namely, obedience to God, to the Messenger and to those in authority among the Community. Therefore, an Imam who is in authority among the Community must always be present.

13. Since God created the human souls and made them capable of what is good and bad, and promised them thereby either reward or punishment, an Imam must then be present at all times, so that he may show the Community the good and the bad, in order that the members of the Community may justly deserve reward or punishment in the afterlife.

14. Since God has entrusted every inanimate thing to someone who is able and knowing by himself (He entrusted the Spheres, for example, to the Intellects, and the human bodies to the souls; see , Rahat al-Aql, pp.255-57), he must therefore entrust the Sharia, after the Prophet’s death, to an Imam so that he may preserve, implement and interpret it.

[shiraz.virani]

So sir if I may ask you, does life exist only on our planet earth ???

There are billions of galaxies and in them billions of stars...so is MHI valid over there or each GOLA [planet] has their own set of imams ???

[tret]

So sir if I may ask you, does life exist only on our planet earth ???

There are billions of galaxies and in them billions of stars...so is MHI valid over there or each GOLA [planet] has their own set of imams ???

This idea of "Many Adams" or "Unlimited First" has been refuted by Ismaili philosophers and theologians. It's said that if there were other worlds like ours, with its own set of spiritual hierarchies, then the First [Intellect] that we call "First" would really not have been first. It would have been second [or third or fourth or Nth] to other's First and so on. And this is proven philosophically, that out of One [The Command] can only One First [Intellect] can be issued [not a multitude of Firsts]. Besides, if we said, if there were more worlds [like earth, with life on it], would make God more powerful and better, would be absurd, because God is not limited by numbers.

As much as men tries to find life elsewhere, but I am not sure if there will be any end to it. I guess we would have to wait and see. But, as far as ismaili doctrine and belief is concern [And I guess other religions share some what similar doctrine] the spiritual hierarchy or ranks of The First [Intellect] and the Universal Soul, is not only limited to our solar system, but extends beyond to the entire universe, that includes the entire creation.

[shiraz.virani]

Tret said

But, as far as ismaili doctrine and belief is concern [And I guess other religions share some what similar doctrine] the spiritual hierarchy or ranks of The First [Intellect] and the Universal Soul, is not only limited to our solar system, but extends beyond to the entire universe, that includes the entire creation.

Tret, my question is simple.....Does all the planets[with life] have their own set of imams[as] ??

[tret]

Tret said

But, as far as ismaili doctrine and belief is concern [And I guess other religions share some what similar doctrine] the spiritual hierarchy or ranks of The First [Intellect] and the Universal Soul, is not only limited to our solar system, but extends beyond to the entire universe, that includes the entire creation.

Tret, my question is simple.....Does all the planets[with life] have their own set of imams[as] ??

But how many planets do men have come to know with life on it?

[Admin]

There are billions of galaxies and in them billions of stars...so is MHI valid over there or each GOLA [planet] has their own set of imams ???

I think once you understand that Imam is not a body but Light, the question does not arise. if Imam (Light) can be seen from the window of a house in the south and can also be see from a window of the house in the East, it does not mean we have 2 Lights, it means the same Light can be seen though more then one window. Hazar Imam talk of creations beyond this universe and the billions of galaxies you have referred to. He talks of creation in Dimensions. How many universes will you find in multiple dimensions, multiple parallel universes? Imam knows.

The question arise because you are considering the body of Shah Karim as "Imam" which is completely absurd because this is the same body which was there when Sultan Muhammad Shah was present and no one called this body as Imam at that time or called Young 8 years old Shah Karim's Sayings as being "Farman". But when 8 years old Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was speaking, we called his sayings "Farmans".

So what was the difference in those 2 eight years old kids. When you have a reply, you will also have a reply to your own question above.

[shiraz.virani]

tret said :

But how many planets do men have come to know with life on it? icon_biggrin.gif

It's not about how many planets do we know that support the life system.

What's the need of creating billions of lifeless galaxies ???

Humans i.e us are busy fighting among ourselves...so progress cannot happen this way.

[shiraz.virani]

iIthink once you understand that Imam is not a body but Light, the question does not arise. if Imam (Light) can be seen from the window of a house in the south and can also bee see from a window of the house in the East, it does not mean we have 2 Lights, it means the same Light can be seen though more then one window. Hazar Imam talk of creations beyond this universe and the billions of galaxies you have referred to. He talks of creation in Dimensions. How many universes will you find in multiple dimensions, multiple parallel universes? Imam knows.

The question arise because you are considering the body of Shah Karim as "Imam" which is completely absurd because this is the same body which was there when Sultan Muhammad Shah was present and no one called this body as Imam at that time or called Young 8 years old Shah Karim's Sayings as being "Farman". But when 8 years old Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was speaking, we called his sayings "Farmans".

So what was the difference in those 2 eight years old kids. When you have a reply, you will also have a reply to your own question above.

Very nicely put admin bhai....I hope there was a like button over here.

[tret]

What's the need of creating billions of lifeless galaxies ???

That's a very good question, and we need to contemplate and wonder.

But, I am not sure if Doctrine of Ismaili supports the idea of parallel universe and multitude of spiritual hierarchy, with having multiple Firsts. At least logically it's not acceptable, based on our understanding of the spiritual realm.

[zznoor]

Tret

But how many planets do men have come to know with life on it?

We know only one just worry about it and take care of it.

[agakhani]

There are billions of galaxies and in them billions of stars...so is MHI valid over there or each GOLA [planet] has their own set of imams ???

That is true that there are many galaxies ginans are full about this detail but if you like reference from Quran then Allah says about his self as "RAHEMTUL AALMEEN" that also proves that THERE ARE MORE THEN ONE GALAXY but as there is a only and only one Allah, same way apply to the Imam too, there is only and only one Imam for all the galaxies. you should not thing the body of Imam.

But how many planets do men have come to know with life on it?

Just wait a little bit more bro Tret but you will hear about another planet pretty soon.

BTW: Many yogis (and some Ismailis too) who reached very advance stages in Meditation they also claims that they have visited many different galaxies during meditation and also seen different creature over there.
not necessarily these creatures are in human shape!!! FOR A REFERENCE Read "Autobiography of an Yogis"

[ismaili103]

According to the one of the hadees of prophet mohammad there are 18000 universes. If we have billions of galaxies and trillions of planets, stars etc only in this known universe then we have infinite planets in rest of the 17999 universes.

Science discover that thier are water on mars but they also claim that they didnot found any life on Mars. But Who knows there are such kind of creation on Mars which are that small, didnt detect on microscope.

[tret]

The question arise because you are considering the body of Shah Karim as "Imam" which is completely absurd because this is the same body which was there when Sultan Muhammad Shah was present and no one called this body as Imam at that time or called Young 8 years old Shah Karim's Sayings as being "Farman". But when 8 years old Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was speaking, we called his sayings "Farmans".

So what was the difference in those 2 eight years old kids. When you have a reply, you will also have a reply to your own question above.

That's how you believe. However, Imam is always Imam, whether 8 years old or 80. see Imam's farmaan.


"Imam is perfect when still in form of sperms in the loins of his father and the pure womb of his mother. An Imam is always Imam and always perfect."
Imam Hasan 'ala dhikrihu al-salam.

Even Imam prior to being appoineed as Imam, are indeed Hujjat (proof) of Imam. Same as wasi who is proof of natiq until wasi inherits the office.

[mahebubchatur]

Gadeer e Khum

"Today I have completed your religion and my bounty upon you, and I
was satisfied that Islam be your religion." (Quran 5:3)

This was revealed in Ghadir Khum when the Messenger of Allah declared Aliyy as his successor.

The following are some of Sunni references which mentioned the revelation of the above verse of Quran in Ghadir Khum after the speech of the Prophet:

(1) al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(2) Tarikh, by Khatib al-Baghdadi, v8, pp 290,596 from Abu Hurayra
(3) Manaqaib, by Ibn Maghazali, p19
(4) History of Damascus, Ibn Asakir, v2, p75
(5) al-Itqan, by al-Suyuti, v1, p13
(6) Manaqib, by Khawarazmi al-Hanfi, p80
(7) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213
(8) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p115
(9) Nuzul al-Quran, by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym narrated on the authority
Abu Sa'id Khudri.
... and more.

The above verse clearly indicates that Islam without announcing the
leadership of Imam Ali was not complete, and perfection of religion was
due to announcement of the Prophet's immediate successor. ( Allah says in the Quran we must obey the Prophet. There is no disagreement on this)

Evidence from Sunni Collections of Traditions
====================
Here are some:

- Imam Ali (AS) having the highest virtues :

The Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "He who wants to see
Noah (AS) in his determination, Adam (AS) in his knowledge,
Abraham (AS) in his clemency, Moses (AS) in his intelligence
and Jesus (AS) in his religious devotion should look at Ali
Ibn Abi Talib (AS)."

Sunni references:
- Sahih al-Bayhaqi
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in
- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449
- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the
Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition
has been accpeted as all genuine.

- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is
stated in the book "Fat'h al-Mulk al-Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e-
Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al-Maghribi.-

Among those who have admitted that Imam Ali (AS) is the store house of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al-Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha'arni has copied it in his al-Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).


- The Light (Noor) of the Prophet (PBUH&HF) and Ali (AS) preceded the
creation ...


Sunni References:
- Mizan Al-Ei'tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
- Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
- History of Ibn Asakir

No one crosses the Path except by a passport from Ali (AS):

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:

"When Abu Bakr neared death,..., Abu Bakr said that he heard the
Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) saying: That there is an obstacle on
the Path which no one crosses unless with a passport (permission)
from Ali Ibn Abi Talib (AS).

And I heard the Messenger of Allah
(PBUH&HF) saying: "I am the seal of the prophets and you, Ali,
the seal of the Awliyaa."

Sunni references:
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v10, p356
- al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195


Ali (AS) is the divider of People to Paradise and Hell:

"The prophet (PBUH&HF) said to Ali (AS): You are the divider of
Paradise and Hell on the Day of Judgment, you say to Hell: This
one for me and that one for you."


Sunni reference: al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2,
p172
Sunni reference: al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9,
subheading 2, p195

Sunni references:
- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p402
- Radd al-Shams, by Shathan Al-Fudhaily


Sunni reference: Kunooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92


And here is a poem from al-Shafi'i (one of the four Sunni Imams):

"Ali will judge mankind and allot them either paradise or hell.
He was the leader of men and Jinns, the true Testator of the Holy
Prophet. If the followers of Ali are 'Rafidhi' verily I am one of
that sect. Ali at the time of breaking of the symbols in the
Ka'ba put his feet on that shoulder where God had put his hand on
the 'Night of Mi'raj' and verily Ali was that into whose eyes
shone the light of God."



Now look at what Umar said on the virtue of Imam Ali (AS):

Umar Ibn al-Khattab said: "If all the seven planets, and the all
the seven heavens are put in one scale of balance and the faith
of Ali in the other, Ali's pan will turn the scales."

Sunni References:
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari
- Izalat al-Khifa Maqsad

- Ali (AS) the best of people after Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF):

"...Jabir said: The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: Ali is the
best of humanity (after me), so whoever has doubt is a Kafir."

Sunni references:
- Kinooz Al-Haqa'iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92
- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v7, p421

Imamat Is A Divine Covenant

Imamat means the stage of becoming a perfect leader of all others.

When Hasrat Ibrahim was appointed an Imam, he at once thought of his progeny and offspring and said: 'What about my offspring? How about my descendants?

He was told: My covenant includes not the wrong doers.

Here Imamat has been described as Allah's covenant.

That is why the Shi'ah say that the Imamat in which they believe is Divine.

The Qur'an also describes it as "My covenant".

It is Allah's covenant, not of the people.

Imamat is a Divine assignment. People ask who is to set up the government, Allah or people?

We say that the question of government is different from that of Imamat.

Allah says to Ibrahim: Imamat is My covenant and it will not include the wrong doers among your children.

In reply to Prophet Ibrahim's question Allah makes a discrimination and excludes wrongdoers from the scope of Imamat.

Thereafter only the non-wrongdoers of Ibrahim's progeny remained. This verse shows that among them Imamat will always be existing.

In this respect there is one verse in the Qur'an: "And He made it a word enduring in his descendants."(Surah az-Zukhruf, 43:28)

Who is a Wrongdoer?

Now the question is what is meant by a wrongdoer.

In connection with Prophet Ibrahim's question about his offspring Allamah Tabataba'i quotes one of his teachers as having said that Prophet Ibrahim's descendants from the point of view of being good or bad can be divided into categories:

Prophet Ibrahim fully realized the importance of the high office of Imamat which was granted to him after he had been a Prophet for a fairly long time.

Now we see that the Holy Qur'an says: "My covenant does not include those who have been wrongdoers."

Therefore what the Qur'an says amounts to it saying that those whose past has not been above reproach, will not get the blessings of Imamat.

[agakhani_1]

Interesting article Mehboob but I have a question!
Was Ibrahim was first imam or he was first Nabi or Rasool!?
As per my understanding Ibrahim was already Nabi/or may be a rasool, then why he needed imam "s status? does imam posts higher than Nabi/rasol"s posts?
History reveled that Ibrahim was declared as an imam after he sacrificed his son Ismail, and that time he already naboowat! Question arise here is: why Allah bestowed him imamat? When he was already nabi?
Was nabi"s post or status is not equal to imam"s post? Or imamat is higher than naboowat?

Besides this question your above post is great as your other posts which are very informative to me as a student.

[nuseri]

To Agakhani.:
Ya Ali Madad.
Prophets prays to god,while Imams accept the parayer.You can guess the status of both from this.
Imamat n Imam is the physical phase of God on earth as written in all earlier books.
I wish to know from you as you have good reading of Hinduism. Was Lord Ram was of prophet or Imamat lineage?

[agakhani_1]

Nuseri,

One correction for you!

Not only Hinduism but I have good knowledge in other religions too.
BTW:- my above question are relating my efforts to prove that "Imamat status" (or post) is higher then Naboowat. lets wait!, what Mehboob and others has to say! about that?

[kmaherali]

Interesting article Mehboob but I have a question!
Was Ibrahim was first imam or he was first Nabi or Rasool!?
As per my understanding Ibrahim was already Nabi/or may be a rasool, then why he needed imam "s status? does imam posts higher than Nabi/rasol"s posts?
History reveled that Ibrahim was declared as an imam after he sacrificed his son Ismail, and that time he already naboowat! Question arise here is: why Allah bestowed him imamat? When he was already nabi?
Was nabi"s post or status is not equal to imam"s post? Or imamat is higher than naboowat?

Besides this question your above post is great as your other posts which are very informative to me as a student.

There are different kinds of Imams:
1. The ones who lead the Namaz in Sunni and other Shias Islam.
2. The leaders of the community or temporal leader. Hazrat Hasan was the Imam in that sense and was called Imam Pir. Hazrat Abraham became the Imam of the Umma in that respect.
3. Ismaili hereditory Imams who are appointed through mass and who are the Mazhar of Allah. Nuseri refers to them.

The Imamat of Hazrat Ibrahim was different than the Ismaili Imamat.

[kmaherali]

There are different kinds of Imams:

Also the leaders of the mazhabs are called Imams. Imam Hanafi for example.

[agakhani_1]

The Imamat of Hazrat Ibrahim was different than the Ismaili Imamat.

Karim,

Can you please tell me how H, Ibrahim was different Imam then current Ismaili Imam?

Were not Imamat before H. Ali (s.a.)?

If not then what is 77 Patras mentioned in old dua?

There is a common beliefs that : there was an hidden Imam ( imamat ) with all prophets!! and our old dua and Ismaili ginans proves that clearly
let me give some names among them.
Musa had Haroon or Aaron as Imam
Mohd had Ali as an Imam
Jesus had Samual as an Imam.
Adam had his son Shesh as an Imam
and so on..........
In my opinion Imamat status had become more importance and came in lights after the death of prophet Mohd but that does not mean Imams were not there before prophet Mohad!!! yes, there were many Imams there even before Rasool - before prophet Mohd Naboowat had important rolls and status and Imamat was hidden at time, but after the death of Nabi Mohd and event of Gadir Khum Imamat has comes in front and Naboowat disappeared as prophet Mohd was the last prophet as revealed in Holy Quran.

Let me ask you this: was Ibrahim not prophet before he sacrificed his son Ismail?
Your answer will be: yes, he was prophet/Nabi at time!.
let me ask you one more question!
Why Allah declared him as an Imam, when he was already Nabi? why didn't declared him Nabi after he became Imam?
Means Imam's stauts is higher then nabi's staus!!

To Nusheri:

Rama was an Imam not prophet, !! wait! I do not says that but our ginans and old dua says that so,basically I have to believes him and lord Krishna as an Imam not as a prophet without any doubt.

[kmaherali]

Karim,

Can you please tell me how H, Ibrahim was different Imam then current Ismaili Imam?

Were not Imamat before H. Ali (s.a.)?

Hazarat Ebrahim was the son of Imam Melchizedidek who was the Ismaili Imam. After Imam Melchizedidek the Ismaili Imamat went to Hazarat Ibrahim's son Hazarat Ismail. The Imamat went from grandfather to grandson, just like MSMS to Shah Karim. Hazarat Ibrahim's position was like Prince Alykhan though he was the Prophet of the time and became Imam of the Umma.

There can only be one Ismaili Imam at a given time, so as long as Imam Melchizedidek was alive Hazarat Ebrahim could not be the Ismaili Imam. He was however the Imam of the Umma.

For more on the subject you may go to:
Imam
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=15

[nuseri]

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.

In regards to equal status of Krishna n Ram made by you.(Imamat lineage)
I need to more information as below:

1.Were Krishna n Ram in the same yug/civilization cycle/avatar?

2. Krishna spoke as God as first person.Did Ram speak like that?

3. Status of Krishna as ALI was affirmed by Imam SMS,what about Ram?
Your reply will enlighten most of the members.

[agakhani_1]

In regards to equal status of Krishna n Ram made by you.

No, I didn't made equal status between Rama and Krishna, and who the heck I? who can take this kind decision ; but these decision has been made by our imams and great pirs!

.Were Krishna n Ram in the same yug/civilization cycle/avatar?

No, they both in different yugas Lord Rama was born before lord Krishna historian believes that may be 18.000 years ago.
Krishna born around 5.000 years ago ( don't blame me again about these years it is not made by you that is for sure)

2. Krishna spoke as God as first person.Did Ram speak like that?

Yes: in Ramayan ( a holy books of Hindus) he claimed and accepted him self as a god.

3. Status of Krishna as ALI was affirmed by Imam SMS, what about Ram? Your reply will enlighten most of the members.

I think SMS has also accepted himself as a Rama but I can not recall it in which farmans I think KBHAI or Admin can tell us more about that but Imam Ali shah declared in his one farman that 'RAM GANO KE KRISHNA E AMOJ CHHIYE. Also our pirs has also quoted same status in 'DAS AVATARS" and many other ginans.

[nagib]

There is a ginan that says Ram and Raheman are one. Eji Raam Rahemaan ek gusaanhiyaa; murakh maram na paave- saahebji

It can be found on http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3695

This ginan by Sayyed Mahammed Shah is usually recited in the presence of Hazar Imam at Darbar.

[kmaherali]

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost."

From the above statement we can see that MSMS considers Shri Ram as equivalent to Shri Krishna.

Shri Ram was one of the Das Avtars just like Shri Krishna according to the Vishanapuri at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

In the Ginan: Pahelaa Karta Jug Manhe Shahna it is stated:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22960

ejee beeje tretaa jugmaa(n)he rupaanaare ghatt shaah naa rupaanaare paatt
rupaane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree raamcha(n)ddhrajee raay
gur veejeshtthann nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)ttaay.....2

During the second era of Tretaa, the Path was silver and the Lord's stage was also silver. Lord Raamchandra was seated on a silver throne as the King.
Through the supplications of the Guide Veejeshtan, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.

ejee treeje duaapur jugmaa(n)he traa(m)baanaare ghatt shaahnaa traa(m)baa naa re paatt
traa(m)baane see(n)ghaasanne betthaa shree karashanjee raay
gur veedurvyaas nee aartee ne chamar ddhallaay
kesar ne ka(n)kunaa shaahne chhaa(n)ttannaa chha(n)taay......3

During the third era of Duaapur, the Path was of copper and the Lord's stage was also of copper. Lord Shree Krishnaa was seated on a copper throne as the king. Through the supplications of the Guide Veedurvyaas, the place was decorated and made glorious. Sprinkle the Lord with yellowish and golden particles.

From the Ginan above Shri Ram and Shri Krishna are considered as equal.

[agakhani_1]

Thank you Kbhai and Admin for your information.

I have another question, if we accept the 'DAS AVATAR" theory and consider Rama and Krishna as an Avatars ( manifestation of Allah) then 10th avatar of H. Ali should be also considered that H. Ali was also manifestation of Allah? or should we have to consider as an Imam?

What is different between Avatar and Imam?

[Admin]

There is no difference, an Imam is an Avatar. All the Imams from the progeny of Ali are called dasmo avatar or Naklanki avatar, they are all equally the same Manifestation of the Noor (Epiphany - Mazhar)

In the list of Imams, in the Asal Dua, we find the name of Krishna and Ram but also the names of Imam preceding the Das Avatar Imams.

[kmaherali]

From an Ismaili perspective there is no difference as pointed out by Admin, but from the point of humanity at large, Avatars are more widely recognised than Ismaili Imams.

Hence Hazrat Ali, Shri Krishna, Shri Ram are more recognised than MHI as they had wider roles in society.

[Admin]

Read below an article on Imamat published in Sunday News several decades ago when Tanzania was still "Tanganyika" .

The file is in PDF format and it can also be downloaded.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/T ... Imamat.pdf

[junglikhan4]

There is a ginan that says Ram and Raheman are one. Eji Raam Rahemaan ek gusaanhiyaa; murakh maram na paave- saahebji

It can be found on http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3695

This ginan by Sayyed Mahammed Shah is usually recited in the presence of Hazar Imam at Darbar.

Reply,
Was Sayyid Muhammad Shah a pir? He left Ismaili tariqa, How come his ginans are allowed to be recited in JK's. Is this with approval of Imam?