Noor of Allah visit a sufi shrine in India

[yasin]

Hazar Imam visited the great site of a Sufi master in India.<BR>As Ismailies belive in HAzar Imam as the road to Asal makam can we try to think the Batuni aspect to this visit&nbsp; and think what would have happened to the soul of this sufi<BR>

[Guest]

Hazar Imam visited the great site of a Sufi master in India.<BR>As Ismailies belive in HAzar Imam as the road to Asal makam can we try to think the Batuni aspect to this visit&nbsp; and think what would have happened to the soul of this sufi<BR>

Please quote the farmans giving proper reference.
True Ismailis believe in the farman only.

As per the Dua - ismailis mention they ask for help and guidance of Allah only and they ask for help and advice in all matters to hazar imam. So allah visited so and so when hazar imam's visits.

[yasin]

My line of thought was that when the noor of Allah visit the grave of a sufi master who has spent all his life for the belief <BR>to be Allah ,destroy the I<BR>What Batuni reality is to be thought here.<BR>I like to find people who think in these chain of thoughts

[shamsu]

My line of thought was that when the noor of Allah visit the grave of a sufi master who has spent all his life for the belief to be Allah ,destroy the I
What Batuni reality is to be thought here.
I like to find people who think in these chain of thoughts

Ya Aly Madad Yasin,

As Ismailies our belief is esoteric.
Imam SMS Farman "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" "Rooh ne jonar Roohparast cche"
Meaning one who looks at the body is an idol worshipper and the one who looks at the Rooh is the worshipper of the Spirit.

Mowla says in his farmans that it is the soul which is eternal.
The grave of whoever doesn't matter. That is not even a living body and then too we don't look at the body.

Imam SMS Farman "Jevo tyan pohchiya tevo potana Rooh na ashak hataa." Those who reached there were in love with their spirit.
What really matters is the Rooh. So focus on that.
What the Imam does with his physical body is his business.
Our job is to follow his Farmans as we promised him in our Baiyat.

Now if we stay attached to body as our primary identification of self then when death comes we will stay in the body and eventually end up in the worms around our grave. (Imam SMS khangi Farman Baitul-Khayal about Roohani rasto and Jismani rasto and Bhedsaed walo rasto)

[roxy]

"Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" - farman of SMS ? Actually what is "buth parast" ? It means things which does not exist any more - not living? need a full quote of the farman really and also the references.

Badan - if one goes by a living one - then it cannot be buth parast and so Deedar of the Lord is not buth parast Or a living god is not bhut parast or seeing one another is not buth parast. So actually need a full farman.

Also, a person's interpretation of esoteric is false if it goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. For example, what is there is there - you cannot say that what is there is not there. One should go by hakikat.

I was actually looking in ismaili.net for forum having just farmans, farmans and farmans. I did not find it. If there is such a forum in ismaili.net where there are only farmans - please let me know. If such a forum is not there then it should be created - the moderator should delete the farmans which are wrong. By farmans I mean mawlana hazar imam farmans in english language.

Please let me know by email - the facility provided by ismaili.net forum, if there is a forum in ismaili.net where there are farmans, farmans and farmans of mawlana hazar imam.

[yasin]

please try to think the batuni concept please, when the Hazar Imam visit a shrine whome millions find some sort of enlightment.
As the Imam is the Akle Kuli for the whole humanity there must be some batuni meaninig in this??
He even has given 14 crore for its renovation
About buth parasti is you do not belive in the oness of Allah
we should not make the Imam sad by not even understanding these basic concept

[roxy]

please try to think the batuni concept please, when the Hazar Imam visit a shrine whome millions find some sort of enlightment.
As the Imam is the Akle Kuli for the whole humanity there must be some batuni meaninig in this??
He even has given 14 crore for its renovation
About buth parasti is you do not belive in the oness of Allah
we should not make the Imam sad by not even understanding these basic concept

Actually I was expecting a proper reply - however, instead of a proper reply I am told to think the batuni concept ? What you are trying to say is do not obey hazar imam's farman because there is a batuni concept attached to it ?? Oh really:

Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" - farman of SMS ? Actually what is "buth parast" ? It means things which does not exist any more - not living? need a full quote of the farman really and also the references.

Badan - if one goes by a living one - then it cannot be buth parast and so Deedar of the Lord is not buth parast Or a living god is not bhut parast or seeing one another is not buth parast. So actually need a full farman.

Also, a person's interpretation of esoteric is false if it goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. For example, what is there is there - you cannot say that what is there is not there. One should go by hakikat.

I was actually looking in ismaili.net for forum having just farmans, farmans and farmans. I did not find it. If there is such a forum in ismaili.net where there are only farmans - please let me know. If such a forum is not there then it should be created - the moderator should delete the farmans which are wrong. By farmans I mean mawlana hazar imam farmans in english language.

[shamsu]

please try to think the batuni concept please, when the Hazar Imam visit a shrine whome millions find some sort of enlightment.
As the Imam is the Akle Kuli for the whole humanity there must be some batuni meaninig in this??
He even has given 14 crore for its renovation
About buth parasti is you do not belive in the oness of Allah
we should not make the Imam sad by not even understanding these basic concept

Actually I was expecting a proper reply - however, instead of a proper reply I am told to think the batuni concept ? What you are trying to say is do not obey hazar imam's farman because there is a batuni concept attached to it ?? Oh really:

Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" - farman of SMS ? Actually what is "buth parast" ? It means things which does not exist any more - not living? need a full quote of the farman really and also the references.

Badan - if one goes by a living one - then it cannot be buth parast and so Deedar of the Lord is not buth parast Or a living god is not bhut parast or seeing one another is not buth parast. So actually need a full farman.

Also, a person's interpretation of esoteric is false if it goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. For example, what is there is there - you cannot say that what is there is not there. One should go by hakikat.

I was actually looking in ismaili.net for forum having just farmans, farmans and farmans. I did not find it. If there is such a forum in ismaili.net where there are only farmans - please let me know. If such a forum is not there then it should be created - the moderator should delete the farmans which are wrong. By farmans I mean mawlana hazar imam farmans in english language.

Poona june 28 1908 Imam SMS

"Jem ek bayaban jungle ma koi tarasyo pani maate talab kare cche, Tevij reetae Roohne pun Imamno Ishk hovo joiyae, Imam na Badan uper nahi, parantu Imamna Rooh uper Ishk hovo joiyae."

Now YOU open Kalame Imame Mubeen and tell me the serial number of this farman. I have given you the date, the place and the name of the Imam.

Main Entry: es·o·ter·ic
Pronunciation: "e-s&-'ter-ik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin esotericus, from Greek esOterikos, from esOterO, comparative of eisO, esO within, from eis into; akin to Greek en in —more at IN
Date: circa 1660
1 a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine —B. N. Cardozo> b : of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group
2 a : limited to a small circle <esoteric pursuits> b : PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL <an esoteric purpose>
- es·o·ter·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb

[roxy]

please try to think the batuni concept please, when the Hazar Imam visit a shrine whome millions find some sort of enlightment.
As the Imam is the Akle Kuli for the whole humanity there must be some batuni meaninig in this??
He even has given 14 crore for its renovation
About buth parasti is you do not belive in the oness of Allah
we should not make the Imam sad by not even understanding these basic concept

Actually I was expecting a proper reply - however, instead of a proper reply I am told to think the batuni concept ? What you are trying to say is do not obey hazar imam's farman because there is a batuni concept attached to it ?? Oh really:

Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" - farman of SMS ? Actually what is "buth parast" ? It means things which does not exist any more - not living? need a full quote of the farman really and also the references.

Badan - if one goes by a living one - then it cannot be buth parast and so Deedar of the Lord is not buth parast Or a living god is not bhut parast or seeing one another is not buth parast. So actually need a full farman.

Also, a person's interpretation of esoteric is false if it goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. For example, what is there is there - you cannot say that what is there is not there. One should go by hakikat.

I was actually looking in ismaili.net for forum having just farmans, farmans and farmans. I did not find it. If there is such a forum in ismaili.net where there are only farmans - please let me know. If such a forum is not there then it should be created - the moderator should delete the farmans which are wrong. By farmans I mean mawlana hazar imam farmans in english language.

Poona june 28 1908 Imam SMS

"Jem ek bayaban jungle ma koi tarasyo pani maate talab kare cche, Tevij reetae Roohne pun Imamno Ishk hovo joiyae, Imam na Badan uper nahi, parantu Imamna Rooh uper Ishk hovo joiyae."

Now YOU open Kalame Imame Mubeen and tell me the serial number of this farman. I have given you the date, the place and the name of the Imam.

Main Entry: es·o·ter·ic
Pronunciation: "e-s&-'ter-ik
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin esotericus, from Greek esOterikos, from esOterO, comparative of eisO, esO within, from eis into; akin to Greek en in —more at IN
Date: circa 1660
1 a : designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine —B. N. Cardozo> b : of or relating to knowledge that is restricted to a small group
2 a : limited to a small circle <esoteric pursuits> b : PRIVATE, CONFIDENTIAL <an esoteric purpose>
- es·o·ter·i·cal·ly /-i-k(&-)lE/ adverb

You have complete diverted from the subject matter.

You mentioned the following in other posting also where I have replied suitably - please go and check this out:

"Jem ek bayaban jungle ma koi tarasyo pani maate talab kare cche, Tevij reetae Roohne pun Imamno Ishk hovo joiyae, Imam na Badan uper nahi, parantu Imamna Rooh uper Ishk hovo joiyae

Regarding esoteric - this concerns our jamat - ismailis are getting the guidance from the imam of the time and his noor conveys which direction one must turn to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction - so we have the knowlege which others to not have. The farman makes things clear to us and farmans say go by the truth, deedar is important, dua is important, one should use the intellect, go by the truth, etc. etc.

Now please reply properly and to the point instead of diverting to some other subject:

You had mentioned: Imam SMS Farman "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" "Rooh ne jonar Roohparast cche"

and I had replied:

Badan ne jonar buth parast cche" - farman of SMS ? Actually what is "buth parast" ? It means things which does not exist any more - not living? need a full quote of the farman really and also the references.

Badan - if one goes by a living one - then it cannot be buth parast and so Deedar of the Lord is not buth parast Or a living god is not bhut parast or seeing one another is not buth parast. So actually need a full farman.

Also, a person's interpretation of esoteric is false if it goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam. For example, what is there is there - you cannot say that what is there is not there. One should go by hakikat.

[shamsu]

It is important to understand what buth means.

Buth is literally an idol. A form that represents something it is not.

The Body is a physical manifestation of the person in question.

Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm.

The body of the Imam is not God it is him who is.

[roxy]

It is important to understand what buth means.

Buth is literally an idol. A form that represents something it is not.

The Body is a physical manifestation of the person in question.

Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm.

The body of the Imam is not God it is him who is.

This is diverting from the subject matter nor the relevant farman you quoted is produced with proper reference - thus it appears there was no such farman. If there is a farman please produce with proper reference.

Also, why according to you allah does not have a body? Please let me know from where did you get this information? On what basis you mention allah does not have mouth, tongue, eyes, nose, hands, legs, etc. Is there any farman from mawlana hazar imam that allah does not have a body? Then according to you how does Allah makes a farman if he does not have mouth, tongue. How does allah writes if he does not have hands. How is allah manifest if he does not have a body. Please put evidence to your saying in the form of a farman. Here you are trying to say the things you do not see you go on worshipping -- this is wrong. We worship mawlana hazar imam and he has a body.

At the same time you mention: "Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm." - Here you admit allah has a body. In fact in one of your posting you were mention allah says BE BE BE - so without mouth, tongue - how will allah speak ?? as per ismaili tariqah hazar imam is allah and he has a body and so allah has a body.

Your postings are "yes is yes" and "no is yes". This does not seem proper.

Please be clear - whether according to you allah has a body or allah does not have a body?

Also, regarding "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche", please produce the relevant parts of the farman with proper reference else I will treat that you have told something and termed it as a farman of SMS whereas actually it is not.

Please be very clear and do not divert from the subject matter.

[yasin]

THIS FORM I THOUGHT WAS TO GIVE OUR VIEWS ON ANY BELIEF OR CONCEPTS WE CAN THINK OF ,AND GIVE OUR INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATIONS ON OUR UNDERSTANDING OF OUR TARIQA,WHICH WE MUST ACCEPT TO BE DIFFERENT FOR ALL OF US.
I WOULD LIKE US NOT TO BE JUDGEMENTAL IN THESE POST BUT READ AND AGREE ON OUR DIFFERENCES AND AGREEMENTS.
MY POST WAS OF COURSE TO FIND SOME RELATION BETWEEN THE SUFI TARIQA AND OURS
HAZAR iMAM CAN NEVER BE WRONG
SO HIS VIST IS NOT SUBJECT OF RIGHT OR WRONG
BUT WHAT CAN WE FIND THE BUILDING OF BRIDGES IN THIS VISIT
I WAS REALLY PLEASE THAT HE DID THIS VIST TO BRING THE UNITY OF MUSLIMS IN A HATEFUL WORLD AGAINST OUR WAY OF BELIEF
HE IS OUR LORD AND MASTER
ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF LIVING AND DEAD IS A TIME BOUNDED THOUGHT
WE ARE ALL ETERNAL AND ARE LIVING AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME
TIME IS A CREATED THING NOT BINDING ALL CREATIONS EXCEPT THE LIVING ON EARTH
ABOUT FARMANS IT SOLE PROPERTY OF THE IMAM NOT TO BE QUOTED
WITHOUT HIS CONCENT
WE SHOULD NOT GIVE SPECIFIC FARMAN TO MAKE A POINT SINCE THEY ARE TIME BOUNDED SOME TIMES OR REGIONAL RELATED
MOST OF US CAN GIVE OUR VIEWS FREELY WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING PUSHED OUT OF THIS FORM JUST BECUASE IT DOES NOT AGREE WITH SOMEONE THINKING
KEEP THEM OPEN MINDED VIEWS ( IF THERE IS ANYTHING AS OPEN MINDED??)

[roxy]

THIS FORM I THOUGHT WAS TO GIVE OUR VIEWS ANY BELIEF CAN THINK OF
I WOULD LIKE US NOT TO BE JUDGEMENTAL IN THESE POST BUT READ AND AGREE ON OUR DIFFERENCES
MY POST WAS OF COURSE TO FIND SOME RELATION BETWEEN THE SUFI TARIQA AND OURS
HAZAR iMAM CAN NEVER BE WRONG
SO HIS VIST IS NOT SUBJECT OFRIGHT OR WRONG
BUT WHAT CAN WE FIND THE BUILDING OF BRIDGES IN THIS VISIT
I WAS REALLY PLEASE THAT HE DID THIS VIST TO BRING THE UNITY OF MUSLIMS IN A HATEFUL WORLD AGAINST OUR WAY OF BELIEF
HE IS OUR LORD AND MASTER
ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF LIVING AND DEAD IS A TIME BOUNDED THOUGHT
WE ARE ALL ETERNAL AND ARE LIVING AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME
TIME IS A CREATED THING NOT BINDING ALL CREATIONS EXCEPT THE LIVING ON EARTH

There is a discussion going on and I think the forums is for this purpose - so please let us come to a conclusion and not let it hang on. I am for clean discussion. Please do not break the discussion.

Also things have been quoted and termed as a farman and I have called for details thereof including proper reference. Please let samsu answer.

You may also reflect to your earlier posting:
"we should not make the Imam sad by not even understanding these basic concept".
-- So now you have decided to make the Imam sad by not understanding these basic concept and break the discussion? You may also go to what I replied to your posting.
Please let samsu reply where reply has been sought.

-- THIS IS FOR REFERENCE - SAMSU - REPLY TO THIS POSTING.
shamsu wrote:
It is important to understand what buth means.

Buth is literally an idol. A form that represents something it is not.

The Body is a physical manifestation of the person in question.

Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm.

The body of the Imam is not God it is him who is.

MY REPLY:
This is diverting from the subject matter nor the relevant farman you quoted is produced with proper reference - thus it appears there was no such farman. If there is a farman please produce with proper reference.

Also, why according to you allah does not have a body? Please let me know from where did you get this information? On what basis you mention allah does not have mouth, tongue, eyes, nose, hands, legs, etc. Is there any farman from mawlana hazar imam that allah does not have a body? Then according to you how does Allah makes a farman if he does not have mouth, tongue. How does allah writes if he does not have hands. How is allah manifest if he does not have a body. Please put evidence to your saying in the form of a farman. Here you are trying to say the things you do not see you go on worshipping -- this is wrong. We worship mawlana hazar imam and he has a body.

At the same time you mention: "Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm." - Here you admit allah has a body. In fact in one of your posting you were mention allah says BE BE BE - so without mouth, tongue - how will allah speak ?? as per ismaili tariqah hazar imam is allah and he has a body and so allah has a body.

Your postings are "yes is yes" and "no is yes". This does not seem proper.

Please be clear - whether according to you allah has a body or allah does not have a body?

Also, regarding "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche", please produce the relevant parts of the farman with proper reference else I will treat that you have told something and termed it as a farman of SMS whereas actually it is not.

Please be very clear and do not divert from the subject matter.

[star_munir]

Imam is mazhar of God.
Mazhar means incarnation,manifestation,avatar

[roxy]

Imam is mazhar of God.
Mazhar means incarnation,manifestation,avatar

I hope you know from the writings that I am eagerly waiting for a reply from shamsu - in the meantime for your info -

As per our dua we ask for help and advice in all matters from God and we ask for help and advice in all matters from mawlana hazar imam. So Mawlana Hazar Imam is Allah. If your interpretation is different from this one then your interpretation is wrong because our Dua is very clear and farman is very clear and our faith is very clear.

Manifestation ---> proof - only God can be a manifestation/proof of God just like you are proof of yourself that you are what you are - you know I cannot be a proof of yourself that you are what you are.

As I mentioned I am eagerly waiting for a reply from shamsu

-- THIS IS FOR REFERENCE - SAMSU - REPLY TO THIS POSTING APPEAR ABOVE -.
shamsu wrote:
It is important to understand what buth means.

Buth is literally an idol. A form that represents something it is not.

The Body is a physical manifestation of the person in question.

Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm.

The body of the Imam is not God it is him who is.

MY REPLY:
This is diverting from the subject matter nor the relevant farman you quoted is produced with proper reference - thus it appears there was no such farman. If there is a farman please produce with proper reference.

Also, why according to you allah does not have a body? Please let me know from where did you get this information? On what basis you mention allah does not have mouth, tongue, eyes, nose, hands, legs, etc. Is there any farman from mawlana hazar imam that allah does not have a body? Then according to you how does Allah makes a farman if he does not have mouth, tongue. How does allah writes if he does not have hands. How is allah manifest if he does not have a body. Please put evidence to your saying in the form of a farman. Here you are trying to say the things you do not see you go on worshipping -- this is wrong. We worship mawlana hazar imam and he has a body.

At the same time you mention: "Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm." - Here you admit allah has a body. In fact in one of your posting you were mention allah says BE BE BE - so without mouth, tongue - how will allah speak ?? as per ismaili tariqah hazar imam is allah and he has a body and so allah has a body.

Your postings are "yes is yes" and "no is yes". This does not seem proper.

Please be clear - whether according to you allah has a body or allah does not have a body?

Also, regarding "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche", please produce the relevant parts of the farman with proper reference else I will treat that you have told something and termed it as a farman of SMS whereas actually it is not.

Please be very clear and do not divert from the subject matter.

[logical]

Dear roxy,

I see you are here again mixing up zaheer & batin. According to you Zaheer is same as Batin - this is what you said in another forum. The Divine - known by many names, can only be known /grasped in the batin.

Ismaili tariqa is not a literalist faith - as you continue to preach.

[roxy]

Dear roxy,

I see you are here again mixing up zaheer & batin. According to you Zaheer is same as Batin - this is what you said in another forum. The Divine - known by many names, can only be known /grasped in the batin.

Ismaili tariqa is not a literalist faith - as you continue to preach.

I hope by the writing you are aware I am eagerly awaiting a reply from shamsu whom you had earlier praised - in the meantime regarding your posting:

You mention I have said zaheer is same as batin in another forum - please copy&paste with proper reference and prove that you are telling the truth. Hope you can do this - more so, since I am putting you to a strict proof. i am sure you are aware of the search facility (moderator I hope you do you give similar password to everone as you gave it to me - I have not changed the password because I liked the 007 in it - hope you understood what I mean.)

Regarding Divine can only be grasped in batin - please quote the farmans and please let me know by many names does mawlana hazar imam appears in it - else you are on the wrong end taking into account that the Noor is Mawlana Hazar Imam's and ismailis pray for zahiri deedar, batuni deedar and noorani deedar. I had the good forture of having the noorani deedar twice of mawlana hazar imam during his zahiri deedar at hasnabad and hence there should not be any farman which goes contrary to what I say - please give a farman with proper reference which says that noorani deedar is not possible when hazar imam gives a zahiri deedar. If you do not have knowledge of such a farman then what is your basis of saying things which you mention - your talking in the air does not hold value - farmans hold value. Thank you.

-- THIS IS FOR REFERENCE - SAMSU - REPLY TO THIS POSTING, THE ORIGINAL OF WHICH APPEAR ABOVE (if someone again put a posting here - be noted that you have to reply to this posting to make your views and matter clear) :

shamsu wrote:
It is important to understand what buth means.

Buth is literally an idol. A form that represents something it is not.

The Body is a physical manifestation of the person in question.

Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm.

The body of the Imam is not God it is him who is.

MY REPLY:
This is diverting from the subject matter nor the relevant farman you quoted is produced with proper reference - thus it appears there was no such farman. If there is a farman please produce with proper reference.

Also, why according to you allah does not have a body? Please let me know from where did you get this information? On what basis you mention allah does not have mouth, tongue, eyes, nose, hands, legs, etc. Is there any farman from mawlana hazar imam that allah does not have a body? Then according to you how does Allah makes a farman if he does not have mouth, tongue. How does allah writes if he does not have hands. How is allah manifest if he does not have a body. Please put evidence to your saying in the form of a farman. Here you are trying to say the things you do not see you go on worshipping -- this is wrong. We worship mawlana hazar imam and he has a body.

At the same time you mention: "Only, when we talk about the Imam it is Allah manifest in the physical realm." - Here you admit allah has a body. In fact in one of your posting you were mention allah says BE BE BE - so without mouth, tongue - how will allah speak ?? as per ismaili tariqah hazar imam is allah and he has a body and so allah has a body.

Your postings are "yes is yes" and "no is yes". This does not seem proper.

Please be clear - whether according to you allah has a body or allah does not have a body?

Also, regarding "Badan ne jonar buth parast cche", please produce the relevant parts of the farman with proper reference else I will treat that you have told something and termed it as a farman of SMS whereas actually it is not.

Please be very clear and do not divert from the subject matter.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad Roxy,

With all due respect, please do not make yourself look like a flower.

If you have not studied the farmans of Imam SMS it is nobody elses fault.

I will e-mail you the 1st part of KIM if you give me your e-mail address. You can study it and clear your confusions.

It is tiring to try to spoon feed you every little basic fact of Ismailism with detailed references as your heart lies to you about the authenticity of Imams Farmans.

Body=zahir

Rooh=batin

Now read carefully without getting distracted with your own agenda.

KIM part 1 Page 308 Farman #144

"tame potana dilma potana roohne aetlae Amara Noorne juvo. Surat aetlae badan to dareknu khak cche. Badanne bimari pan lagu pade cche, roohne kai thatu nathi je koi ruhani ishk rakhe cche tej khuda parast cche BADANNE JONAR BUTH PARAST CCHE."

I am not done yet. Have to get back to work but there is another Farman about "......Tame batun taraf josho toj tamara kaam thashe...." which I will post exactly in a few hours.

[roxy]

Ya Aly Madad Roxy,

With all due respect, please do not make yourself look like a flower.

If you have not studied the farmans of Imam SMS it is nobody elses fault.

I will e-mail you the 1st part of KIM if you give me your e-mail address. You can study it and clear your confusions.

It is tiring to try to spoon feed you every little basic fact of Ismailism with detailed references as your heart lies to you about the authenticity of Imams Farmans.

Body=zahir

Rooh=batin

Now read carefully without getting distracted with your own agenda.

KIM part 1 Page 308 Farman #144

"tame potana dilma potana roohne aetlae Amara Noorne juvo. Surat aetlae badan to dareknu khak cche. Badanne bimari pan lagu pade cche, roohne kai thatu nathi je koi ruhani ishk rakhe cche tej khuda parast cche BADANNE JONAR BUTH PARAST CCHE."

I am not done yet. Have to get back to work but there is another Farman about "......Tame batun taraf josho toj tamara kaam thashe...." which I will post exactly in a few hours.

Shamsu - the farmans (KIZ 1,2,3 which you promised) have still not been received - refer the email ID I provided. Please do the needful. Also, please send the KIM - part I you are mentioning).

The farman you quoted mention the following:

"tame potana dilma potana roohne aetlae Amara Noorne juvo. Surat aetlae badan to dareknu khak cche. Badanne bimari pan lagu pade cche, roohne kai thatu nathi je koi ruhani ishk rakhe cche tej khuda parast cche BADANNE JONAR BUTH PARAST CCHE."

The farman mentions you, in your heart, see "your" spirit which is His Light. The form of everyone will perish. The form will feel sick, the spirit does not feel any such thing. Those who have love for the spirit - they are Khuda parast. Those who see their body only are buth parast.

So here the farman is in your heart see your spirit, i.e. imam's noor (which does not get sick nor die) and not just the body, which gets sick and will perish. You are not just body but you also have a spirit, imam's noor in you - if you see the body only and do not see the spirit in you as aforesaid you are buth parast. - So the farman mention that one should, in our heart, see our spirit which is His Light. Seeing the body is buth parast.

So you see this farman does not mention that Allah (refer - Imam says His Light) does not have a body. The Imam is there and he has a body and you say He does not have a body ? Does it make sense now ?

Thank you for the farman and the reference (so KIM has has chapters and numbers - also please send this book also by email).

In the meantime you can quote the farmans pertaining to Deedar of the Imam from KIM. You know the Deedar of the Imam is very important. Zahiri Deedar, Batuni Deedar and Noorani Deedar. Thank you.

[yasin]

roxy
can you please not dictate the form here
do your posting of your views
instead of insisting us to rely to your chain of thuoghts
you wrote
There is a discussion going on and I think the forums is for this purpose - so please let us come to a conclusion and not let it hang on. I am for clean discussion. Please do not break the discussion

the topic here is the visit of Hazar Imam
please do contribute if you can

[shamsu]

NO Allah is not the Body.

He created bodies.

The job of the body is to do things.

Allah uses Imam's Body to communicate and guide us.

The body of Imam is not Allah.

The soul of Imam is Allah.

When Imam speaks, Allah speaks.

Hence Allah reaches us through the Farmans of Mowla.



Yasin,
KIM part 1 page 344 farman #159
Imam SMS has stated " Sufi mahazab aapna Ismaili Deen ne Lagto cche."

Meaning: Sufi faith touches our Ismaili faith.


Another farman Page 349 Farman#160 KIM 1

"Tame pan ahste ahste sufi ma dil lagado, enathi pan uper javano khayal raakho. Sufi mahazab ae tarikat cche pacchi Haqiqat ma pohonch sho. Tame ahste ahste udwa laagsho....."

You too should gradually attach your heart in sufi, Keep thinking about elevating above that. Sufi faith is Tariqat, later you will reach Haqiqat. Gradually you will begin to fly....

[shamsu]

THIS FORM I THOUGHT WAS TO GIVE OUR VIEWS ON ANY BELIEF OR CONCEPTS WE CAN THINK OF ,AND GIVE OUR INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATIONS ON OUR UNDERSTANDING OF OUR TARIQA,WHICH WE MUST ACCEPT TO BE DIFFERENT FOR ALL OF US.
I WOULD LIKE US NOT TO BE JUDGEMENTAL IN THESE POST BUT READ AND AGREE ON OUR DIFFERENCES AND AGREEMENTS.
MY POST WAS OF COURSE TO FIND SOME RELATION BETWEEN THE SUFI TARIQA AND OURS
HAZAR iMAM CAN NEVER BE WRONG
SO HIS VIST IS NOT SUBJECT OF RIGHT OR WRONG
BUT WHAT CAN WE FIND THE BUILDING OF BRIDGES IN THIS VISIT
I WAS REALLY PLEASE THAT HE DID THIS VIST TO BRING THE UNITY OF MUSLIMS IN A HATEFUL WORLD AGAINST OUR WAY OF BELIEF
HE IS OUR LORD AND MASTER
ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF LIVING AND DEAD IS A TIME BOUNDED THOUGHT
WE ARE ALL ETERNAL AND ARE LIVING AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME
TIME IS A CREATED THING NOT BINDING ALL CREATIONS EXCEPT THE LIVING ON EARTH
ABOUT FARMANS IT SOLE PROPERTY OF THE IMAM NOT TO BE QUOTED
WITHOUT HIS CONCENT
WE SHOULD NOT GIVE SPECIFIC FARMAN TO MAKE A POINT SINCE THEY ARE TIME BOUNDED SOME TIMES OR REGIONAL RELATED
MOST OF US CAN GIVE OUR VIEWS FREELY WITHOUT FEAR OF BEING PUSHED OUT OF THIS FORM JUST BECUASE IT DOES NOT AGREE WITH SOMEONE THINKING
KEEP THEM OPEN MINDED VIEWS ( IF THERE IS ANYTHING AS OPEN MINDED??)

Ya Aly Madad Yasin,

Imam SMS has specifically asked us to discuss his farmans. He has asked us to write letters to each other and ask for clarifications as we do in Business.

Now,
Where do you think Farmans originate?
From within time and space or from above time and space?

I believe that Imam and hence his Farmans exist above time and space and due to this belief The farman is eternal.
Imam says "Amara farmano ni hazaro maynao cche" KIM 1 page 338 Farman#157 Our Farmans have thousands of meanings.

Hence the whole farman discussion.

Imam has said "Amara farman cche te NOOR cche" in KIM 2 I just have to get the exact page etc.


Hope this helps

Ya Aly Madad
Shamsuddin

[roxy]

NO Allah is not the Body.

He created bodies.

The job of the body is to do things.

Allah uses Imam's Body to communicate and guide us.

The body of Imam is not Allah.

The soul of Imam is Allah.

When Imam speaks, Allah speaks.

Hence Allah reaches us through the Farmans of Mowla.



Yasin,
KIM part 1 page 344 farman #159
Imam SMS has stated " Sufi mahazab aapna Ismaili Deen ne Lagto cche."

Meaning: Sufi faith touches our Ismaili faith.


Another farman Page 349 Farman#160 KIM 1

"Tame pan ahste ahste sufi ma dil lagado, enathi pan uper javano khayal raakho. Sufi mahazab ae tarikat cche pacchi Haqiqat ma pohonch sho. Tame ahste ahste udwa laagsho....."

You too should gradually attach your heart in sufi, Keep thinking about elevating above that. Sufi faith is Tariqat, later you will reach Haqiqat. Gradually you will begin to fly....

The farmans you quoted does not relate to Allah has no body. Please mention where it is mentioned that Allah has no body.

What you mention goes against the duas and the prayers and hence it is not as per the Ismaili Tariqah because Ismaili Dua mention one should seek help and advice in all matters from Allah only and we seek help and advice in all matters from mawlana hazar imam and mawlana hazar imam has a body and so allah has a body. Mawlana Hazar Imam changes form but the light is one and the same. You know the farman of mawlana hazar imam which mention His Light - So without Him - No Noor. You know the farman - Duniyaa no adhaar Imam che.

If this is not enought (in fact there are many things I can point out) You can also come out with a farman which mention that Allah does not have a body?

- shamsu I have been given to understand that farmans have been received - if possible also send KIM2 and other khangi farmans - so now I am stopping all my postings and will be going through the farmans - THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH.

[shamsu]

Imam SMS states "Aa duniya sapna jevi cche"

Now if you think that this whole creation is a dream then it has to be the Imam's dream. In the dream you may see a body of Allah but the whole dream is occuring inside Mowla.

This is how I understand "Wa Qul shain asainahu fi Imame Mubeen"

Imam is not the physical body. He is everything that is.

Ginans state " cchoud(14) brahmand no ae dhani, vasse cche aa sansarej mahe"

7 jameen ane 7 aasman=cchoud brahmand.


Imam SMS Farman "Khuda 7 jameen ane 7 aasman ma samavi sakto nathi" "Momin no dil khudavantalla no rehvano banglo cchete , te Ishk uper takelo cche....."

Now you may say that if he is everything then the body is included.

Let us look into that.

If you have a dream and in the dream you have a body of Aishwariya Rai.
If someone questions; Did you have a body in the dream? what will you say? I would say Yes and No. You had a body but it was not real.

This is what I mean when I say Imams body is not Allah.

If we say Imam has a body then I have a farman of Imam SMS which states

"Ay Jamato, tame amara Badan ccho"

Now this puts a new twist in the equation.



SO WE KEEP ON CONTRBUTING TOWARDS THE LEARNING PROCESS.

Gotta go to work see u later.
Ya Aly Madad.
shamsu

[roxy]

Imam SMS states "Aa duniya sapna jevi cche"

Now if you think that this whole creation is a dream then it has to be the Imam's dream. In the dream you may see a body of Allah but the whole dream is occuring inside Mowla.

This is how I understand "Wa Qul shain asainahu fi Imame Mubeen"

Imam is not the physical body. He is everything that is.

Ginans state " cchoud(14) brahmand no ae dhani, vasse cche aa sansarej mahe"

7 jameen ane 7 aasman=cchoud brahmand.


Imam SMS Farman "Khuda 7 jameen ane 7 aasman ma samavi sakto nathi" "Momin no dil khudavantalla no rehvano banglo cchete , te Ishk uper takelo cche....."

Now you may say that if he is everything then the body is included.

Let us look into that.

If you have a dream and in the dream you have a body of Aishwariya Rai.
If someone questions; Did you have a body in the dream? what will you say? I would say Yes and No. You had a body but it was not real.

This is what I mean when I say Imams body is not Allah.

If we say Imam has a body then I have a farman of Imam SMS which states

"Ay Jamato, tame amara Badan ccho"

Now this puts a new twist in the equation.



SO WE KEEP ON CONTRBUTING TOWARDS THE LEARNING PROCESS.

Gotta go to work see u later.
Ya Aly Madad.
shamsu

The farmans and dua settles the matter that allah has a body. In fact we are created from the soul of the imam/allah - we are a part of the imam in this sense.

On the other hand, you, once again, diverted completely from the subject matter. Aa duniya sapna jevi cche - that is right - when you leave this world you will find like you were lived for a day or less in duniya. You will find this in the quran also. Where does the farman states allah does not have a form.

Re: Ay Jamato, tame amara Badan ccho
--------
Need a farman with reference because Sultan mohd shah also speaks in allegory and parable. By this he must have tried to explain something to the jamat. You can also refer what I mentioned earlier.

Regarding: Imam SMS Farman "Khuda 7 jameen ane 7 aasman ma samavi sakto nathi" "Momin no dil khudavantalla no rehvano banglo cchete , te Ishk uper takelo cche....."
-----------------------
Please give farman reference no. - Khuda does not fit in 7 jameen and 7 asman but Momin's heart is where allah stays and that is based on love for the allah.

Re: "Wa Qul shain asainahu fi Imame Mubeen"
-------
And we have vested everything in the manifest Imam.
- "everything" includes god powers, god authority, god himself.

Ismailis also pray to mawlana hazar imam for his:
zahiri deedar
batuni deedar
noorani deedar
=== so where is the question of any other allah coming in the imam's body and all that things you go on quoting (god knows from where?), more so, since the noor is His (imam's) and His Noor is with Him.

The farmans you sent me - notice I am hardly getting time. Thought I will try to go through the farman after I see some postings and here I am - Also, please send me KIM2 and the khangi farmans. Thank you once again for the farmans.

I am repeating my earlier posting as it pertains to some of the evidence I rely on and it also makes matters clear how you divert and do not answer to the point [i.e. you did not answer this ---> The farmans you quoted does not relate to Allah has no body. Please mention where it is mentioned that Allah has no body] :

Posted: 21 May 2003 09:57 pm Post subject: Re: Body

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shamsu wrote:
NO Allah is not the Body.

He created bodies.

The job of the body is to do things.

Allah uses Imam's Body to communicate and guide us.

The body of Imam is not Allah.

The soul of Imam is Allah.

When Imam speaks, Allah speaks.

Hence Allah reaches us through the Farmans of Mowla.



Yasin,
KIM part 1 page 344 farman #159
Imam SMS has stated " Sufi mahazab aapna Ismaili Deen ne Lagto cche."

Meaning: Sufi faith touches our Ismaili faith.


Another farman Page 349 Farman#160 KIM 1

"Tame pan ahste ahste sufi ma dil lagado, enathi pan uper javano khayal raakho. Sufi mahazab ae tarikat cche pacchi Haqiqat ma pohonch sho. Tame ahste ahste udwa laagsho....."

You too should gradually attach your heart in sufi, Keep thinking about elevating above that. Sufi faith is Tariqat, later you will reach Haqiqat. Gradually you will begin to fly....

The farmans you quoted does not relate to Allah has no body. Please mention where it is mentioned that Allah has no body.

What you mention goes against the duas and the prayers and hence it is not as per the Ismaili Tariqah because Ismaili Dua mention one should seek help and advice in all matters from Allah only and we seek help and advice in all matters from mawlana hazar imam and mawlana hazar imam has a body and so allah has a body. Mawlana Hazar Imam changes form but the light is one and the same. You know the farman of mawlana hazar imam which mention His Light - So without Him - No Noor. You know the farman - Duniyaa no adhaar Imam che.

If this is not enought (in fact there are many things I can point out) You can also come out with a farman which mention that Allah does not have a body?

- shamsu I have been given to understand that farmans have been received - if possible also send KIM2 and other khangi farmans - so now I am stopping all my postings and will be going through the farmans - THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH.

[yasin]

ya ali madad
Shamshu
farmans are not eternal,becuase they are meant for the living.
That is why the being Hazr and Zinda is so important

I have heard Hazar Imam say only the soul is eternal

Every other aspect of the world is FANA in nature even the body which is of Hazar Imam
Those who do have had the Haqiqati deedar tell us that our soul is the Allah in us
Which does make sense that only our soul is Eternal
That is why we pray for fana in him and Baka in this zaat

fana-anihilation
baka-living/being
zaat-the being of Allah

we might be missing the whole massage when we do argue about the words this or that since
the reality is He is US
now to talk what he is would be beyond words and of course not possible

Sufi have said the fact that he is so near to us and is invisible and because His Nur is so bright
He appears in veils so that we can justify that it is Him
This deillusion does make us wonder with all the wrong concepts about him
He is also fond of playing hide and sike with us which makes the road ever more harder

[roxy]

ya ali madad
Shamshu
farmans are not eternal,becuase they are meant for the living.
That is why the being Hazr and Zinda is so important

I have heard Hazar Imam say only the soul is eternal

Every other aspect of the world is FANA in nature even the body which is of Hazar Imam
Those who do have had the Haqiqati deedar tell us that our soul is the Allah in us
Which does make sense that only our soul is Eternal
That is why we pray for fana in him and Baka in this zaat

fana-anihilation
baka-living/being
zaat-the being of Allah

we might be missing the whole massage when we do argue about the words this or that since
the reality is He is US
now to talk what he is would be beyond words and of course not possible

Sufi have said the fact that he is so near to us and is invisible and because His Nur is so bright
He appears in veils so that we can justify that it is Him
This deillusion does make us wonder with all the wrong concepts about him
He is also fond of playing hide and sike with us which makes the road ever more harder

The matter has already been made clear so why ignore this and go on arguing without any reasons? I am saying without any reasons because you mention "soul is the Allah in us". How can soul be the allah in you when soul can get corrupted ??? Allah does not get corrupted you know. In fact to free the soul of the sin you ask for allah/mawlana hazar imam's forgiveness.

You mention that Sufi has said this and that -- how can one call one a sufi if that that person goes against the farman of mawlana hazar imam ? The question just does not arise.

Allah = Light/Form - Noor is the same and only the form changes and this is done to effect the succession of noor - Light upon Light. The succession of Noor cannot come into effect unless the form changes since allah is light & form. The parable of allah's light clearly reveal that the oil of the blessed olive tree lights the lamp and blessed olive tree is the form of allah and the "Light" is of the blessed olive tree. Without the blessed olive tree - there is no light.

Also refer the farmans of sultan mohd shah wherein he mention that he changes is form but his light in the same
= Farman No.2 - Kalame Imame Mubin - Part I - Page No.8 & 9.

Also refer my posting of 22 May 2003.

So everything is made clear by the dua, farmans, prayers and the quran.

[star_munir]

Acording to Holy Quran Allah is Noor.Noor means Divine Light.
Imam is incarnation of God.His body is not god.He is incarnation of God.
Holy Prophet {PBUH}said that Face of Ali is like that of God.
Imam Jaffar Sadiq said that Hum Imam hi Khuda ka wo chehera{face}hai tis kay zariye Khuda apna Jalwa dikhata hai.
Pir Sadardin said in Ginan Momn Chetawani
to muneevar bhaee aapna matha mubarak nu mohammad mustafa karea ane mowla alee te potee alee avatar aa sena mubarak neete hazrat bibi fatima ane nur chasham te betena hazrat imam hassan wa hussain deel thhar.

[roxy]

Acording to Holy Quran Allah is Noor.Noor means Divine Light.
Imam is incarnation of God.His body is not god.He is incarnation of God.
Holy Prophet {PBUH}said that Face of Ali is like that of God.
Imam Jaffar Sadiq said that Hum Imam hi Khuda ka wo chehera{face}hai tis kay zariye Khuda apna Jalwa dikhata hai.
Pir Sadardin said in Ginan Momn Chetawani
to muneevar bhaee aapna matha mubarak nu mohammad mustafa karea ane mowla alee te potee alee avatar aa sena mubarak neete hazrat bibi fatima ane nur chasham te betena hazrat imam hassan wa hussain deel thhar.

It appears that you reject the Ismaili Tariqah that mawlana hazar imam is allah because Quran mention Allah is Noor. Will you please tell me whose Noor ? Quran reveals HIS LIGHT - so whose Light? You did not make this clear. Not only this you concealed material facts - in this regard, you may note the following:

Quran reveals Rabb/Lord, a human being, and Allah is one. In other words, Quran reveals that Allah and Lord is one and the same:

Yunus - 10
3) Verily your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority) regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not celebrate His praises?

Ha-Mim - 41
30) In the case of those who say "Our Lord is Allah" and further stand straight and steadfast the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!" (they suggest) "nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss) the which ye were promised !

Al-Kahf, or the Cave (XVIII)
38) "But as for my part Allah is my Lord, and none shall I associate with my Lord.

So Lord is Allah and Lord has a body, which please note.

On one hand you reject the ismaili tariqah by giving a verse of the quran wherein you conceal material fact and I expect that you will give another verse of the quran and try to reject Lord is Allah - please feel free go ahead.

For your info, Quran reveals that the Holy Prophet saw the Lord and His greater revealation (Noor/Light) and hence the Light is of the Lord - OK.

[star_munir]

I not said that Imam is not Allah.I said Imam is incarnation of Allah which means avatar in hindi and mazhar in urdu.Example Ram is called bhagwan by hinus.Body of Ram was not the body of Vishnu.Ram was incarnation of vishnu but he is called God because inside his body was God so by saying Imam as incarnation of God not means refusing faith becaue His Holy Body is not God.Nur is GodBody changes but Noor remains the same.
According to Ginan Momin cheetavani
Head of God is Prophet Mohammad[PBUH]
Ali is itself avatar
Bibi Fatima is chest [seena] of God
Hazrat Hassan and Hazrat Hussain are the eyes of God.