first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[shivaathervedi]

Satpunthi Ismailis claim, they are from primordial time, my INNOCENT question to explore: Is God Satpunthi Ismaili?

[Admin]

Satpunthi Ismailis claim, they are from primordial time, my INNOCENT question to explore: Is God Satpunthi Ismaili?

Yes Satpanth follows God so Satpanth has never been on a different path than the path prescribed by God.

Whatever existence came to existence at whatever time and has followed and submitted to God, that existence had been called Satpanthi.

[kmaherali]

Whatever existence came to existence at whatever time and has followed and submitted to God, that existence had been called Satpanthi.

The question being asked is whether God is satpanthi.In other words does God submit to Himself?

[Admin]

Whatever existence came to existence at whatever time and has followed and submitted to God, that existence had been called Satpanthi.

The question being asked is whether God is satpanthi.In other words does God submit to Himself?

There is a thread at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ht=paradox

This is the thread where this question belong to, it is called: "Omnipotence paradox..??"

[ismaili103]

Satpunthi Ismailis claim, they are from primordial time, my INNOCENT question to explore: Is God Satpunthi Ismaili?

I love the way that how you are excluding your self from Satpanth by invariably saying that only we ( Khojas and Momnas) are sutpanthi Ismailis without even knowing the meaning of satpanth which is Sirat al mustqeem, the same word in Quran for Islam.

[shivaathervedi]

Satpunthi Ismailis claim, they are from primordial time, my INNOCENT question to explore: Is God Satpunthi Ismaili?

I love the way that how you are excluding your self from Satpanth by invariably saying that only we ( Khojas and Momnas) are sutpanthi Ismailis without even knowing the meaning of satpanth which is Sirat al mustqeem, the same word in Quran for Islam.

You did not address my question instead passed remark on me. You are like a politician or an actor who try to stay in news to prove 'I am somebody' or like an OX who thinks he is holding the planet earth on his back. When hard questions are asked you disappear. Let me see how much knowledge you have, answer the question I asked in Ahl e Bait/ Punjtan Paak thread.

[shivaathervedi]

Satpunthi Ismailis claim, they are from primordial time, my INNOCENT question to explore: Is God Satpunthi Ismaili?

Yes Satpanth follows God so Satpanth has never been on a different path than the path prescribed by God.

Whatever existence came to existence at whatever time and has followed and submitted to God, that existence had been called Satpanthi.

While writting this question I had word NIRIJIN in mind. You know meaning of NIRINJIN well. He is beyond sirat, punth, rasta. We can't understand Him, comprehend Him, or visualize Him. Kmaherali's answer is in right direction but you and him missed the other attached word that is Sutpunthi 'Ismaili'.

[shivaathervedi]

To day ie, on Sep 2, 2016, on Heritage front page I saw photo of Hazar Imam in BLACK ATTIRE at time of Didar in Karachi, October 2000. Is the black attire allowed for Ismailis even in khane though MSMS banned it. Any comments.

[kmaherali]

To day ie, on Sep 2, 2016, on Heritage front page I saw photo of Hazar Imam in BLACK ATTIRE at time of Didar in Karachi, October 2000. Is the black attire allowed for Ismailis even in khane though MSMS banned it. Any comments.

There is a thread on black clothes in this forum. I cannot copy paste the link from my phone.

To search for any topic, use the blue search button at the top of the page and type whatever you want to search.

[Admin]

To day ie, on Sep 2, 2016, on Heritage front page I saw photo of Hazar Imam in BLACK ATTIRE at time of Didar in Karachi, October 2000. Is the black attire allowed for Ismailis even in khane though MSMS banned it. Any comments.

First: Why are you posting in this thread. Can you stop infecting each and every thread with everything and anything?

Second: The Sirat al Mustaqueem follows the Imam, not the other way round.

Third the black clothes issue has been discussed here: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 12&start=0

[shivaathervedi]

To day ie, on Sep 2, 2016, on Heritage front page I saw photo of Hazar Imam in BLACK ATTIRE at time of Didar in Karachi, October 2000. Is the black attire allowed for Ismailis even in khane though MSMS banned it. Any comments.

First: Why are you posting in this thread. Can you stop infecting each and every thread with everything and anything?

Second: The Sirat al Mustaqueem follows the Imam, not the other way round.

Third the black clothes issue has been discussed here: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 12&start=0

Imam does not have to follow Sirat e Mustaqeem because his farmans are Sirat e Mustaqeem for followers. I belong to young generation of 21st century and not living in 12th century blindfolded.
Followers follow the leader and leaders set example for followers.
Your search button does not show any particular subject or topic but it mentions scores or some time more than 100 topics. That kind of search is time consuming. As you are quick in deleting why not high light the topic and move it in proper thread, you have a team of IT experts.

[Admin]

To day ie, on Sep 2, 2016, on Heritage front page I saw photo of Hazar Imam in BLACK ATTIRE at time of Didar in Karachi, October 2000. Is the black attire allowed for Ismailis even in khane though MSMS banned it. Any comments.

First: Why are you posting in this thread. Can you stop infecting each and every thread with everything and anything?

Second: The Sirat al Mustaqueem follows the Imam, not the other way round.

Third the black clothes issue has been discussed here: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 12&start=0

Imam does not have to follow Sirat e Mustaqeem because his farmans are Sirat e Mustaqeem for followers. I belong to young generation of 21st century and not living in 12th century blindfolded.
Followers follow the leader and leaders set example for followers.
Your search button does not show any particular subject or topic but it mentions scores or some time more than 100 topics. That kind of search is time consuming. As you are quick in deleting why not high light the topic and move it in proper thread, you have a team of IT experts.

[Admin]

search workd fine. Please post in appropriate topics. Ask someone to help you if you are not familiar with computers and searches.

[shivaathervedi]

Lately I came across a passage in a booklet. I am sharing this interested paragraph for readers.

During Pandawas and Kurawas war ie Mahabharat when Krishinaji realized that Arjuna's army is loosing war, he raised his hands and prayed to Parmeshwar. He beseech and implored to lord of Universe saying," O Parmeshwar, O Pramatima, it is a hard time, please in the name of your beloved, in the name of your Pritam's Pritam, in the name of Aali who will show his chamatkar near the great temple of world near black stone, you listen to my plea and grant victory to Arjuna and faithfuls."
Ref: Name of booklet; Krishan Beniti.
Writer; Pundit Ram Dhan
Published by; Saagri Pushtakalia, Dehli
Year;1931.

[kmaherali]

Lately I came across a passage in a booklet. I am sharing this interested paragraph for readers.

During Pandawas and Kurawas war ie Mahabharat when Krishinaji realized that Arjuna's army is loosing war, he raised his hands and prayed to Parmeshwar. He beseech and implored to lord of Universe saying," O Parmeshwar, O Pramatima, it is a hard time, please in the name of your beloved, in the name of your Pritam's Pritam, in the name of Aali who will show his chamatkar near the great temple of world near black stone, you listen to my plea and grant victory to Arjuna and faithfuls."
Ref: Name of booklet; Krishan Beniti.
Writer; Pundit Ram Dhan
Published by; Saagri Pushtakalia, Dehli
Year;1931.

It contradicts the Bagavad Gita 11:32 -35:

Krishna responds:

32. I am all-powerful Time which destroys all things, and I have come here to slay these men. Even if thou dost not fight, all the warriors facing thee shall die.

33. Arise therefore! Win thy glory, conquer thine enemies, and enjoy thy kingdom. Through the fate of their karma I have doomed them to die: be thou merely the means of my work.

34. Drona, Bhishma, Jayad-ratha and Karna, and other heroic warriors of this great war have already been slain by me: tremble not, fight and slay them. Thou shalt conquer thine enemies in battle.

[shivaathervedi]

Lately I came across a passage in a booklet. I am sharing this interested paragraph for readers.

During Pandawas and Kurawas war ie Mahabharat when Krishinaji realized that Arjuna's army is loosing war, he raised his hands and prayed to Parmeshwar. He beseech and implored to lord of Universe saying," O Parmeshwar, O Pramatima, it is a hard time, please in the name of your beloved, in the name of your Pritam's Pritam, in the name of Aali who will show his chamatkar near the great temple of world near black stone, you listen to my plea and grant victory to Arjuna and faithfuls."
Ref: Name of booklet; Krishan Beniti.
Writer; Pundit Ram Dhan
Published by; Saagri Pushtakalia, Dehli
Year;1931.

It contradicts the Bagavad Gita 11:32 -35:

Krishna responds:

32. I am all-powerful Time which destroys all things, and I have come here to slay these men. Even if thou dost not fight, all the warriors facing thee shall die.

33. Arise therefore! Win thy glory, conquer thine enemies, and enjoy thy kingdom. Through the fate of their karma I have doomed them to die: be thou merely the means of my work.

34. Drona, Bhishma, Jayad-ratha and Karna, and other heroic warriors of this great war have already been slain by me: tremble not, fight and slay them. Thou shalt conquer thine enemies in battle.

The writer of booklet ' Krishan Beniti ' was a Pundit and knew Geeta very well. Still he dared to write in majority Hindu atmosphere that Krishan implored other higher God.
Looks like Krishanji created rift between Pandawas and Kurawas. Then he took side of one party. Was he a fair REFEREE? Instigated members of his party to kill opponents. When they did not he killed the main figures like Drona, Bishma,karna and so on, himself. This was all one sided plan.
When God takes side and become PARTIAL can not be called God. A God should be just and not prejudice.

[Admin]

When you try to judge God's actions with a limited intellect, this is what happens. A complete misunderstanding of the facts of creation.

[kmaherali]

The writer of booklet ' Krishan Beniti ' was a Pundit and knew Geeta very well. Still he dared to write in majority Hindu atmosphere that Krishan implored other higher God.
Looks like Krishanji created rift between Pandawas and Kurawas. Then he took side of one party. Was he a fair REFEREE? Instigated members of his party to kill opponents. When they did not he killed the main figures like Drona, Bishma,karna and so on, himself. This was all one sided plan.
When God takes side and become PARTIAL can not be called God. A God should be just and not prejudice.

Unenlightened scholarship is referred in the Ginan verses:

ke jeere bhaai pustak paddee paddee pa(n)ddeet thaakaa
pann ilaahee kaa bhed na paayaa....................1

Dear brothers, the scholars have got tired reading over and
over the books. But they have not attained the mysteries of Divinity.

[Divinity cannot be attained by mere reading of books.
It has to be done with the practise of faith simultaneously.]

ke jeere bhaai allaah mahamad cheet thee veesaareene melyaa
tees dha(n)dhethee bhraahamann bhulaa..............2

Dear brothers, they have forgotten and abandoned Allah and
Muhammed in their consciousness. The bhrahmins are lost and
bewildered regarding this (exalted) business.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22924

Yes the Divine does intervene in creation as and when it is required and necessary according to His judgement as per verse:

ejee paratak rupe haree aaveeyaa, aape dharee avataar
rachanaa rachaavee vaaso vasyaa, aape jug kirtaar............2

The Lord has come in the present form and has assumed Himself as
the physical Manifestion(Imaam). Having created the creation,
He has established His abode. He is indeed the Creator Himself.

ejee kudda kapatta ne ttaallvaa, paakha(n)d je jug maa(n)he
neermal karvaane pruthvee, aavyaa treebhovar raay............3

For the sake of annihilating the forces of evil, and the hypocrates of the age; to purify the universe(of evil), the King of the three worlds has come.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22963

[shivaathervedi]

The writer of booklet ' Krishan Beniti ' was a Pundit and knew Geeta very well. Still he dared to write in majority Hindu atmosphere that Krishan implored other higher God.
Looks like Krishanji created rift between Pandawas and Kurawas. Then he took side of one party. Was he a fair REFEREE? Instigated members of his party to kill opponents. When they did not he killed the main figures like Drona, Bishma,karna and so on, himself. This was all one sided plan.
When God takes side and become PARTIAL can not be called God. A God should be just and not prejudice.

Unenlightened scholarship is referred in the Ginan verses:

ke jeere bhaai pustak paddee paddee pa(n)ddeet thaakaa
pann ilaahee kaa bhed na paayaa....................1

Dear brothers, the scholars have got tired reading over and
over the books. But they have not attained the mysteries of Divinity.

[Divinity cannot be attained by mere reading of books.
It has to be done with the practise of faith simultaneously.]

ke jeere bhaai allaah mahamad cheet thee veesaareene melyaa
tees dha(n)dhethee bhraahamann bhulaa..............2

Dear brothers, they have forgotten and abandoned Allah and
Muhammed in their consciousness. The bhrahmins are lost and
bewildered regarding this (exalted) business.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22924

Yes the Divine does intervene in creation as and when it is required and necessary according to His judgement as per verse:

ejee paratak rupe haree aaveeyaa, aape dharee avataar
rachanaa rachaavee vaaso vasyaa, aape jug kirtaar............2

The Lord has come in the present form and has assumed Himself as
the physical Manifestion(Imaam). Having created the creation,
He has established His abode. He is indeed the Creator Himself.

ejee kudda kapatta ne ttaallvaa, paakha(n)d je jug maa(n)he
neermal karvaane pruthvee, aavyaa treebhovar raay............3

For the sake of annihilating the forces of evil, and the hypocrates of the age; to purify the universe(of evil), the King of the three worlds has come.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22963

You are right, divinity can not be attained by mere books reading, but here we are discussing historical facts. Let me ask, Why Krishanji did not show up to help Imam Hussain where kids and teenagers were massacred in Karbala.
You wrote," For annihilating the forces of evil........the king of three worlds has come." Look at the bloodshed, look at the massacres, look at the destruction in various countries; WHERE IS KRISHANJI. GOD IS GUMSHUDAH.

[ismaili103]

Imam Hussain was himself Krishna, Ram, Ismail, Melchizedek, Kuse, Abu Talib etc. So stop confusing other Guest readers.

And second, all these destruction is because of the act of humans, everything is happened by the God's will but human can change their destiny by their actions, INSAAN APNI TABEER SE APNI TAQDEER BADAL SAKTA HAI.

Same thing is written in Quran.

[kmaherali]

You are right, divinity can not be attained by mere books reading, but here we are discussing historical facts. Let me ask, Why Krishanji did not show up to help Imam Hussain where kids and teenagers were massacred in Karbala.
You wrote," For annihilating the forces of evil........the king of three worlds has come." Look at the bloodshed, look at the massacres, look at the destruction in various countries; WHERE IS KRISHANJI. GOD IS GUMSHUDAH.

What kind of historicity one can have for incidents that happened 5000 years ago? What the scholar has said contradicts the accepted truths of the Gita composed by Vidur Vyaas the Pir of the Time. Would you rather believe the scholar or the scripture?

It is the nature of history that trials and tribulations come to mankind for it's evolution. All tragedies are not evil, sometimes they happen for the benefit of individuals and societies generally. Lots of lessons were learnt from Karbala. Millions of Shais are still repenting for betraying Imam Husein.

There is a description of the vision of souls of those martyred in Karbala rising to heavens which is given in an article: The Eternal Hussein. This article is given in page 1 of the thread:

Month of Mohaaram
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

You may continue the discussion on that thread.

[shivaathervedi]

Imam Hussain was himself Krishna, Ram, Ismail, Melchizedek, Kuse, Abu Talib etc. So stop confusing other Guest readers.

And second, all these destruction is because of the act of humans, everything is happened by the God's will but human can change their destiny by their actions, INSAAN APNI TABEER SE APNI TAQDEER BADAL SAKTA HAI.

Same thing is written in Quran.

You consider Imam Hussain as Krishna (you are annoying Shias), it means Krishnaji planned his martyrdom along with his family members, then why to blame Yazid and his army. So Yazid will go scott free according to you, is that what you mean?
You wrote," every thing happened by the God's will." When all is happening because of God's will because He wanted that way, again why to blame Yazid, Abu Jahal, Hitler, ISIS, because it is God's will that innocents, kids, women, elderly should get killed!! Did Yazid or Hitler changed their destiny by destruction of mankind?

[shivaathervedi]

You are right, divinity can not be attained by mere books reading, but here we are discussing historical facts. Let me ask, Why Krishanji did not show up to help Imam Hussain where kids and teenagers were massacred in Karbala.
You wrote," For annihilating the forces of evil........the king of three worlds has come." Look at the bloodshed, look at the massacres, look at the destruction in various countries; WHERE IS KRISHANJI. GOD IS GUMSHUDAH.

What kind of historicity one can have for incidents that happened 5000 years ago? What the scholar has said contradicts the accepted truths of the Gita composed by Vidur Vyaas the Pir of the Time. Would you rather believe the scholar or the scripture?

It is the nature of history that trials and tribulations come to mankind for it's evolution. All tragedies are not evil, sometimes they happen for the benefit of individuals and societies generally. Lots of lessons were learnt from Karbala. Millions of Shais are still repenting for betraying Imam Husein.

There is a description of the vision of souls of those martyred in Karbala rising to heavens which is given in an article: The Eternal Hussein. This article is given in page 1 of the thread:

Month of Mohaaram
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

You may continue the discussion on that thread.

Historical facts are different in comparison to faith. Did Maha Bharat happened? yes; did event of Karbala happend? yes. Now historical fact is in Maha Bharat God killed people and in Karbala God himself was killed because you people equate Krishanji with Imam Hussain.
You wrote," all tragedies are not evil, some times they happen for the benefits of individuals." Let us take an example; if a person is killed in a car accident, what kind of happiness will bring this tragedy to his family members, he was the lone care taker of his family. In first and second world wars millions were killed, unfathomable sufferings and pain and these wars opened the doors for new destructive armaments, is that good for societies? Why Krishnaji is not stopping the sufferings of mankind, that's why I dubbed these words, TALASH E GUMSHUDAH.
At present I am not discussing the events of Karbala.

[Admin]

You wrote," every thing happened by the God's will." When all is happening because of God's will because He wanted that way, again why to blame Yazid, Abu Jahal,...

There is a thread on your very focused question related to Predestination and Free Will, please post there and do not mix all subjects here. Thank you.

LINK HERE:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 95&start=0

[shivaathervedi]

A technical question;
In ITREB and Ismaili libraries, also in private collections mostly Ismailis have Pir Pindiyat. Still today it is known as Pir. My question is do this book enjoys title of Real Pir where Imam as a Pir is present. I have not seen any writing or Talika by any Imam withdrawing Pir title from Pindiyat. Any comment.

[kmaherali]

A technical question;
In ITREB and Ismaili libraries, also in private collections mostly Ismailis have Pir Pindiyat. Still today it is known as Pir. My question is do this book enjoys title of Real Pir where Imam as a Pir is present. I have not seen any writing or Talika by any Imam withdrawing Pir title from Pindiyat. Any comment.

Ginans are recited composed by previous Pirs, so what is wrong with having Pir Pindiyat as well as part of our inherited tradition unless the Imam himself tells us to withdraw it from circulation.

I personally don't see anything wrong with reading it today.

[shivaathervedi]

A technical question;
In ITREB and Ismaili libraries, also in private collections mostly Ismailis have Pir Pindiyat. Still today it is known as Pir. My question is do this book enjoys title of Real Pir where Imam as a Pir is present. I have not seen any writing or Talika by any Imam withdrawing Pir title from Pindiyat. Any comment.

Ginans are recited composed by previous Pirs, so what is wrong with having Pir Pindiyat as well as part of our inherited tradition unless the Imam himself tells us to withdraw it from circulation.

I personally don't see anything wrong with reading it today.

Sir down to earth, most earnestly I request my question is not about the circulation or reading of Pindiyat! Every Ismaili should read Pindiyat.
I asked you about the price of mangoes but you gave me quotation about bananas. Please read my question again; I asked," Pindiyat enjoys title of real pir, where Imam as Pir is also present. I have not seen any Talika or writings by any Imam to withdrew Pir title from Pindiyat."

[Admin]

I have not seen any Talika or writings by any Imam to withdrew Pir title from Pindiyat.

That means that Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi is as much Pir today as it was at that time, in the same manner, we still consider Pir Sadardin as Pir the same way today as he was at his time. There is no Farman, as you rightly point out, about Pandiyat stopping beeing Pir.

[kmaherali]

I asked you about the price of mangoes but you gave me quotation about bananas. Please read my question again; I asked," Pindiyat enjoys title of real pir, where Imam as Pir is also present. I have not seen any Talika or writings by any Imam to withdrew Pir title from Pindiyat."

There is a saying of Hazarat Ali:

"A man of learning lives even after his death, while an ignorant man is dead while alive!"

MSMS made a remark that Pir Sadardeen is alive as long as his Ginans are recited.

So Pir Pandiyat is as alive as Pir Sadardeen.

[shivaathervedi]

I have not seen any Talika or writings by any Imam to withdrew Pir title from Pindiyat.

That means that Pir Pandiyat Jawanmardi is as much Pir today as it was at that time, in the same manner, we still consider Pir Sadardin as Pir the same way today as he was at his time. There is no Farman, as you rightly point out, about Pandiyat stopping beeing Pir.

Pir Sadardin is not physically present but Pindiyat is present as a pir, title is not revoked. It means there are two Pirs now a days, one Hazar Imam and other Pindiyat. But according to Satpunthi Tariqa there should be one Pir at a time.
In boxing it is called TECHNICAL KNOCK OUT, JUST KIDDING.