"GHADIRE-E-KHUMM"

[kmaherali]

I believe in Imamat. I believe in Hazar Imam. I believe in his Farmans and Hidayat. I believe in Ismaili and Muslim Tenets as mentioned in PREAMBLE of Ismaili constitution, and one of them is:

You haven't answered my question. I ask you again: When did Imamat
begin?

[swamidada]

I believe in Imamat. I believe in Hazar Imam. I believe in his Farmans and Hidayat. I believe in Ismaili and Muslim Tenets as mentioned in PREAMBLE of Ismaili constitution, and one of them is:

You haven't answered my question. I ask you again: When did Imamat
begin?

Imamat began with Mowla Murtaza Ali as first Imam. Please refer to 6th part of Dua.

[kmaherali]

Imamat began with Mowla Murtaza Ali as first Imam. Please refer to 6th part of Dua.

How about the Qasida:

Ta Surat-o piwand-i jahan bud Ali bud
Ta naqsh-i zamin bud zaman bud Ali bud

Before the universe had a form, Ali was present
Before space and time were implanted, Ali was present

[swamidada]

Imamat began with Mowla Murtaza Ali as first Imam. Please refer to 6th part of Dua.

How about the Qasida:

Ta Surat-o piwand-i jahan bud Ali bud
Ta naqsh-i zamin bud zaman bud Ali bud

Before the universe had a form, Ali was present
Before space and time were implanted, Ali was present

But there is no mention of Ali being Imam at that time in the couplet you mentioned. Your question is about Imamat.

[kmaherali]

But there is no mention of Ali being Imam at that time in the couplet you mentioned. Your question is about Imamat.

A bit of intelligence is required to make the connection.

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).


Ginan verse:

ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11

Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23179

From the above two references it is quite clear that Imamat existed since the beginning.

[kmaherali]

Hence from a zaheri perspective the Prophet appointed Hazarat Ali as the 1st Imam. From the Batuni perspective Imamat existed since the beginning.

It is necessary to keep the Zaheri/Batuni perspectives to understand Ismailism.

[swamidada]

It is necessary to keep the Zaheri/Batuni perspectives to understand Ismailism.

Acccording to Ismaili Ta'limaat, it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message to guide followers. It is not the job of eera, vera, nathu kheera to Ta'weel. Already community teens and youth is confused because of spinning ta'weelat by some missionaries, so called
scholars, and little knowledge nathu kheeras. It is the authority of Imam, clearly mentioned in the following article of Preamble.

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids.....

So far Hazar Imam has not explained the Ta'weel of the Praemble.

[swamidada]

But there is no mention of Ali being Imam at that time in the couplet you mentioned. Your question is about Imamat.

A bit of intelligence is required to make the connection.

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).


Ginan verse:

ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11

Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one.
Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23179

From the above two references it is quite clear that Imamat existed since the beginning.

Our present Imam is Shah Karim Al Hussaini. We have to follow his Farman and Hidayat. Being an Ismaili we should follow the Ta'limaat in Preamble as explained by Imam of the time.
In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said;
1.HINDU NI WAATO ILM MA WANCHO CHHO TE WAJIB NATHI.
2.JIYAREY TAME(N) HINDU HATA TIYARE PIR SADARDIN NE TAME(N) RASTO DEKHARIYU(N).
3.TE WAQAT GUJRI GAYO. HAMN(N)A MOWLA ALI NI TAREEF, IMAMO NI TAREEF ANY HAZAR IMAM NI TAREEF WANCHO.
4. NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
5.DASMO AVTAR MA MARA DADA (MOWLA ALI) NI TAREEF WANCHO.
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

Let me quote a reference of Paris conference in 1975.

Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."

[kmaherali]

So far Hazar Imam has not explained the Ta'weel of the Praemble.

There is no need to do that. It is available in our traditions which include the Farmans, Ginans and Qasidas for those who have intellects.

[kmaherali]

In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.

Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted. On the contrary he has told us to follow the Farmans of his grandfather.

There has been discussion on pre-Alid Imamat at:


Imams Pre-Ali

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ht=prealid

No need to repeat it here.

[swamidada]

So far Hazar Imam has not explained the Ta'weel of the Praemble.

There is no need to do that.

You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.

[swamidada]

In Preamble there is no mention of Dus Avtar or reincarnation. These theories were propagated in previous era. Now time has changed. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," In my 70 years of Imamat I have changed Farmans 70 times.

Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted. On the contrary he has told us to follow the Farmans of his grandfather.

There has been discussion on pre-Alid Imamat at:


Imams Pre-Ali

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ht=prealid

No need to repeat it here.

Your words:
"Has the present Imam said anything to override the Farman I quoted".

When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

[kmaherali]

You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.

The Constitution cannot be compared to Allah's final message and to talk of Ta'weel is meaningless in the first place. The constitutions keep changing whereas Allah final message does not change.

The constitutions are the "clothes we wear" - the zaher aspect of our faith. Our traditions on the other hand are the Batin - the body. The zaher is limited in time whereas the batin is limitless.

The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless.

[kmaherali]

When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.

The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar. That does not mean that we negate the notion of Das Avtaar.

[swamidada]

When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.

The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar. That does not mean that we negate the notion of Das Avtaar.

You wrote:
The Imam meant don't follow the teachings of the Nine Avatars but follow the teaching of the present Avtaar.

Dear Sir then follow the teachings and Hidayat of your present Avtar.
Follow the Tenets of Preamble prescribed by Hazar Imam for Ismaili mureeds including myself and you.

[swamidada]

You have been insisting on Ta'weel in mostly of your postings, now you wrote 'there is no need to do that'. Make up your mind. Article 'B' of Preamble clearly mentions that it is the authority and right of Hazar Imam to explain Ta'weel of Allah's final message.

The Constitution cannot be compared to Allah's final message and to talk of Ta'weel is meaningless in the first place. The constitutions keep changing whereas Allah final message does not change.

The constitutions are the "clothes we wear" - the zaher aspect of our faith. Our traditions on the other hand are the Batin - the body. The zaher is limited in time whereas the batin is limitless.

The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless.

See need a bit of intelligence!! I am writing about Preamble but to distract readers you keep writing constitution. Ismaili Constitution can be changed according to changing times, but not the TENETS of Islam already mentioned and explained in Quran.

You wrote;
"The tenets mentioned in the preamble are time bound whereas the principles mentioned in our traditions are timeless".

Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?

[kmaherali]

Dear Sir then follow the teachings and Hidayat of your present Avtar.
Follow the Tenets of Preamble prescribed by Hazar Imam for Ismaili mureeds including myself and you.

The preamble is NOT a Farman from the Imam. It is a statement of our official doctrines or tenets. The guidance contained in the Farmans/Qasidas/Ginans are to be followed. They are quite clear that the Noor of Imamat is eternal and did not commence at Ghadir!

[kmaherali]

Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?

Traditions are of course very important. They have existed for thousands of years. They cannot be changed or tampered. Hence MHI has called Ginans a wonderful tradition. Tenets can be changed according to the context. We never had a preamble before 1986. Constitutions keep changing. Mowla Ali was not the first Imam. He was the first Imam in the present cycle. There were Imams before him.

[Admin]

Actualy Gadir e Khum has never been used in the way Imamat was defined and justified in Ismaili faith. It may have been for non Ismailis or shariatis or in periods of Taqiyah but not among the Ismailis of the esoteric tradition.

In the Asal Du'a the Imamat of Hazrat Ali was legitimised from the Imamt of his father Abu Talib Vali going back to what people have found to be names of Summerian and Mesapothemian deities, well beyond the Das Avars which only came much later.

And the Imamate, in the new Dua, is legitimised from the Quran 36:12 which defines the status and power of Imam e Mubeen.

[swamidada]

Can you explain Tenets are important or traditions? Traditions can be changed with passing time but Tenets not. Tenets are rigid. Can you change principle of Tawhid, Muhammad being final Prophet of Allah, Quran as final message of Allah, Mowla Ali being first Imam as declared by Prophet Muhammad?

He was the first Imam in the present cycle.

But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.

[Admin]

But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.

There are mentions of cycle not only in the ginans, but also in the Granths and in Asal Du'a which gives some names of Imams for the 3 karan period, then for the 4 Kalaps, also for each of the last 4 cycles and thereafter the new cycle starting with Adam. Read Bandali Haji: Nooran Allah Noor. (google it)

[swamidada]

When Imam changes Farman of his predecessor he usually don't declare but just issues the new Farman. There is no mention of 'dus avtar or reincarnation in our Dua or Preamble the most important document of Ismaili Tenet. If dus avtar and reincarnation were part of our faith then should have been mentioned in Dua and Preamble.
On reference of KIM, Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah said," NAW (9) AVTAR MUKI NAKHO (leave 9 Avtars).
August 20, 1899- Jungbar.

There is no need to repeat items that were already mentioned by our 48th Imam.

Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."

[swamidada]

But there is no mention of cycles in Ginanic literature.

There are mentions of cycle not only in the ginans, but also in the Granths and in Asal Du'a which gives some names of Imams for the 3 karan period, then for the 4 Kalaps, also for each of the last 4 cycles and thereafter the new cycle starting with Adam. Read Bandali Haji: Nooran Allah Noor. (google it)

I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.

Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.

[Admin]

I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.

Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.

I don't know which book you read or in which planete you live nor why you misquote our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah by saying the he said first you are Muslim but you hide that he continued that you have gone higher and you have become Ismailis. Also I do not know why you are saying that I have not find the Asal Dua, you should be out of your mind, I have more than 25 manuscripts and 30 books of the Asal Du'a so why persist with so many lies.

I will not entertain you. You are a write-off. Please do nto waste our time and stop posting here. If your aim is to mislead Ismailis, you are at the wrong place, here we do check all posting and we do delete fake news and fake accounts.

[swamidada]

You are mean (like it or not). A dishonest,

-----------------

Message deleted by Admin. Wasted enough time with you. And your offensive and insulting language is not welcome on this Board.

Admin

[swamidada]

I down loaded Noorun Ala Noor by missionary Shams Bandali Haji as you mentioned. Could not find any particular part of Ginan definitely mentioning doctrine of cycles. Let me quote what I found. The book is collection of lectures by missionary Saheb to mission class students. My findings:
He said in lecture, Shariat is Huqq and essential.
He quoted Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that first of all you are Muslims.
First came into existence Noor of Punjtan Pak.
In lectures he has mainly discussed;
Mairaj
Shabb e Baraat
History of Mowla Ali
Code of conduct
Mowla jo ghar
Dasond.
Mostly he has shed light on Dus Avtar and incarnations.
He has mentioned ages of 3 Karans, 4 Kalaps, 4 Yugas without discussing cycles. Karans, Kalaps, and Yugas are found in old Hindu literature.

Where is the copy or script of ASAL DUA written by Pir Sadardin. You tried hard, I tried hard unable to find or locate.

I have more than 25 manuscripts and 30 books of the Asal Du'a

Kiya baat hai! 25 manuscripts of Asal Dua you have. Please post One and I shall pray for your salvation.

[kmaherali]

Related thread at:

Ghadir Khum and Qu'ran

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 3342#73342

[mahebubchatur]

“Ghadir Khumm, is “when Prophet Muhammad — based on a divine command from Allah — designated Hazrat Ali as his successor & first Imam. after Prophet ,in the continuing line of hereditary Imams” link 17 July 2022 https://the.ismaili/eid-e-ghadir

“ God created my spirit and the spirit of ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib two thousand years before He created humankind. He sent ‘Alī secretly with every prophet and openly with me.”- Prophet Muhammad

“The Imāmat is the office of spiritual and religious leadership recognized in Shī‘ī Islam according to which the Imām is the spiritual and religious successor (waṣī) of the Prophet Muḥammad. While prophetic revelation ended with the Prophet Muḥammad, divine inspiration, spiritual authority, religious guidance, and mystical gnosis continued in the institution of Imāmat.

Today, the Shī‘ī Ismā‘īlī Muslims recognize 49 designated hereditary Imāms from the progeny and family (Ahl al-Bayt) of the Prophet Muḥammad in direct lineal descent from Imām ‘Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib who was designated by the Prophet. The present (ḥaḍir) and 49th hereditary Imām is Mawlānā Shāh Karīm al-Ḥusayni Āga Khān IV – known to his disciples (murīds) as Mawlānā Haḍir Imām. (For more details on the history of this succession, see the article Light upon Light: Succession in the Shī‘a Ismā‘īlī Imāmat)” . https://ismailignosis.com/2014/07/11/li ... ili-imams/

https://ismailignosis.com/2012/07/09/fr ... -imamat-2/

Role and Authority of Ismaili Imam
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=9224

[kmaherali]

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8BJmpH8eE

According to Shia belief, by declaring Hazrat Ali as Mawla after him, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) transferred his own spiritual authority bestowed upon him by Allah to Hazrat Ali, making him — and all the Imams that follow — the Amirul Mu’minin, or Master of the Believers.

[swamidada]

Video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va8BJmpH8eE

According to Shia belief, by declaring Hazrat Ali as Mawla after him, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family) transferred his own spiritual authority bestowed upon him by Allah to Hazrat Ali, making him — and all the Imams that follow — the Amirul Mu’minin, or Master of the Believers.

Your statement suggests that prior to Prophet Muhammad Ali Murtaza was not Mowla and Amirul Mu'mineen as Prophet bestowed these titles upon Ali Murtaza.