Hindu Mythology and Indian Terminology / Civilisations

[kmaherali]

In sufi Islam the word pir is not used as used in Satpunthi literature.?

The definition of the Pir given in the wikepedia:

"In Sufism a Pir's role is to guide and instruct his disciples on the Sufi path."

That is exactly the same role in Satpanth Ismailism as in verse:

satgur sohodev raah bataai
baargur peer sadardeen dish bataai....aartee keeje..........1

The True Guide, Peer Sadardeen(Sohdev) has shown the Way.
The Guide of twelve crore liberated ones(Bargur - Peer Sadardeen) has shown the
(right) direction.
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23113

Sufi consider their pir as murshid and not like an Ismaili Imam.?

The Imam is also a mursheed in our tariqah as per verses:

ejee murshid kaamal ku(n) nahi jaanne momano
sotaa jugame(n) fire jesaa a(n)dhaa.........................11

O momins! the ones who do not recognise the Perfect
Master (Teacher), wander in this age(world) as blind ones.

ejee murshid maanore apane man chinta su(n)
saa(n)heeyaa dil maa(n)he hardam huzur......................13

Follow the Master with conviction of your heart and mind,
then you will realise that the Lord is indeed always present in your hearts.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22776

Who is AL KITAB according to Ismailis beliefs?

The Imam/Pir

[kmaherali]

So Noor is symbol according to you like other symbols, Noor is either particle nor wave then what is Noor? Again question stays where it was that Nirinjin
is Noor or not or beyond Noor.
LA THI UNN ZAAT KAHAWEY, JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAV JAWEY.

I gave the answer by reference to Ginans in page No. 25 of this thread:

Noor niraakaar janajo...

What more do you want???

[kmaherali]

MATHURA

I did a quick search for "mathura" in the Ginan Search and found the following verses mentioning it.

Je Kans raay chhe Mathuraa tanno,
Taasun me khel maanddiyo chhe ghanno 28

Jyaare paiyaar thi naag naathi laaviaa Shri Krashnnji Raay,
Tyaare gokul Mathuraa maanhe tthaatth vartaa-e 32

Tyaare gokul Mathuraa maa vartyo jay jaykaar,
Pann Kans aagal paddi chhe pukaar 33

Tyaare svasthaan to gokul-pur nagari jaann,
Kshetra to Mathuraa puri nagari pramaann 229

Das Avtar - Motto http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30598

******
Shri Aatth maanhe Shri Aatth maanhe gokal baaluddaa chhe Shri Kaan Vaasudev ne kule maataa Devki ne kukhe te Shri Kirshanji bhale avtareyaa, paelaa Putnaa no kidho chhe sanhaar, tenaa soseyaa chhe sharir;
Taare kaapiyo Kansaasur kaal, teddi laavo te Nandji nu baal;

Vege karine velaa thaao, ek ghaddi ni vaar ma laavo, ek taal maanhe velaa jaao, jaai lejo amaarun naam, Nand saathe chhe ek kaam, pujaa maanddi chhe Mathuraa gaam, te maanhe joie chhe Kamal naa kaam, teddi laavo te Nandji nu Kaan, nahi kaa chhaanddo gokal gaam, nahi kaa bijo dharaavo naam, taare

Das Avtar - Nano http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30588

******
264 Man Samjaanni Pir Shams
1 Man Samjaanni ki esi baataa
2 Duniyaa ajaanni na samje dhaataa
3 Purabh dise paro jaanno sai
4 Tiaan khaanaa das kareaa jai
5 Mukhi ek Chaval Sapaai
6 Te Surjaa ne duaare reaa jaai
7 Tenaa Mukhi das sai parmaann
8 Unkaa naam Guru lakheaa jaann
9 Te paraano naam Kasaari kevaae
10 Surjaa Raanni tiaan ghannu jaae
11 Mahesari Sekhsang Mukhi aae
12 Raamsang Kaansang te kevaae
13 Mathuraa Sang Kathuraa raajput
14 Javsangi Mansangi Mukhi khoob
15 Gavri maai Kaan baai jaann
16 Evaa Mukhi das tiaan chhe parmaann

Man Samjaani - (Motti) http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30596

******

Eji Gokul maanhe vadhaamnna,
Mathuraa maanhe mangal vartiyaa chaar 41

Home

Melo rikhisar mella milo http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3900

*****
Eji Dwaapur Kaan, Budh avtaare,
sol sestra gopiyun Shaah jiyun mathuraa minjaar;
truttho gaitiye khe Shaah dev moraar - srevo 6

Paachh me aayaa Shah partak paaya http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3887

*****
Page 66
Pir Sadardin-ki Venti
Karsan roope bahu rang ras karyaa, jaare Vaasudev-ke ghare avtaryaa;
Pratham Putnaa-kaa sonsyaa praann, pachhi naag naathyaa nirvaann;
Kali-naag par asvaari karyaa, maamaa Kans-kun tame tyaan maaryaa;
Ramyaa gopi rang sol hajaar, esaa khel kiyaa Mathuraa minjaar;
(Played with the Gopis in 16 thousand colours (dances), such wonders did he perform in Mathura)

Satvenni Ji Vel - Bhaag Bijo http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30461

[shivaathervedi]

In connection to post ' ANCIENT INDIA ' that it was named SIND in beginning, Here is just a piece of information that by birth one of Ismaili Imam was born in Sind.

[shivaathervedi]

VARANASI

Varanasi also known as Benares, or Kashi, is a North Indian city on the banks of the Ganges in Uttar Pradesh, known as the spiritual capital of India, it is the holiest of the seven sacred cities (Sapta Puri) in Hinduism and Jainism, and played an important role in the development of Buddhism. Buddha is believed to have founded Buddhism here around 528 BC when he gave his first sermon, "The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of Dharma", at near by Sarnath. The city's religious importance continued to grow in the 8th century, when Adi Shankara established the worship of Shiva as an official sect of Varanasi. Despite the Muslim rule, Varanasi remained the centre of activity for Hindu intellectuals and theologians during the Middle Ages, which further contributed to its reputation as a cultural centre of religion and education. Goswami Tulsidas wrote his epic poem on Lord Rama's life called Ram Charit Manas in Varanasi. Several other major figures of the Bhakti movement were born in Varanasi, including Kabir and Ravidas. Guru Nanak Dev visited Varanasi for Shivratri in 1507, a trip that played a large role in the founding of Sikhism. In the 16th century, Varanasi experienced a cultural revival under the Muslim Mughal emperor Akbar who invested in the city, and built two large temples dedicated to Shiva and Vishnu, though much of modern Varanasi was built during the 18th century, by the Maratha and Bhumihar kings. The kingdom of Benares was given official status by the Mughals in 1737, and continued as a dynasty-governed area until Indian independence in 1947.
Varanasi has been a cultural centre of North India for several thousand years, and is closely associated with the Ganges. Hindus believe that death in the city will bring salvation, making it a major centre for pilgrimage. The city is known worldwide for its many ghats, embankments made in steps of stone slabs along the river bank where pilgrims perform ritual ablutions. Of particular note are the Dashashwamedh Ghat, the Panchganga Ghat, the Manikarnika Ghat and the Harishchandra Ghat, the last two being where Hindus cremate their dead. The Ramnagar Fort, near the eastern bank of the Ganges, was built in the 18th century in the Mughal style of architecture with carved balconies, open courtyards, and scenic pavilions. Among the estimated 23,000 temples in Varanasi are Kashi Vishwanath Temple of Shiva, the Sankat Mochan Hanuman Temple, and the Durga Temple.

Traditional etymology links "Varanasi" to the names of two Ganges tributaries forming the city's borders: Varuna, still flowing in northern Varanasi, and Assi, a small stream in the southern part of the city, near Assi Ghat. The old city is located on the north shores of the Ganges, bounded by Varuna and Assi. Throughout the ages, Varanasi has been known by many names including Kasi or Kashi (used by pilgrims dating from Buddha's days), Kasika (Sanskrit: "the shining one"), Avimukta (Sanskrit: "never forsaken" by Shiva), Anandavana (Sanskrit: the forest of bliss), and Rudravasa (Sanskrit: the place where Rudra/Siva resides).

According to legend, Varanasi was founded by the god Shiva. The Pandavas, the heroes of the Hindu epic Mahabharata, are also said to have visited the city in search of Shiva to atone for their sin of fratricide and Brahmanahatya that they had committed during the climactic Kurukshetra War. It is regarded as one of seven holy cities which can provide Moksha; Ayodhya, Mathura, Gaya, Kasi, Kañchi, Avantika, and Dwaravati are the seven cities known as the givers of liberation.

[shivaathervedi]

So Noor is symbol according to you like other symbols, Noor is either particle nor wave then what is Noor? Again question stays where it was that Nirinjin
is Noor or not or beyond Noor.
LA THI UNN ZAAT KAHAWEY, JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAV JAWEY.

I gave the answer by reference to Ginans in page No. 25 of this thread:

Noor niraakaar janajo...

What more do you want???

What more do you want???
Sir, I want one million dollars, just kidding.

LA THI UN ZAAT KAHAWEY
JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAHI(N) JAAWEY

DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NAHI(N) PAAWEY

PIR SADARDIN.

[shivaathervedi]

In sufi Islam the word pir is not used as used in Satpunthi literature.?

The definition of the Pir given in the wikepedia:

"In Sufism a Pir's role is to guide and instruct his disciples on the Sufi path."

That is exactly the same role in Satpanth Ismailism as in verse:

satgur sohodev raah bataai
baargur peer sadardeen dish bataai....aartee keeje..........1

The True Guide, Peer Sadardeen(Sohdev) has shown the Way.
The Guide of twelve crore liberated ones(Bargur - Peer Sadardeen) has shown the
(right) direction.
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23113

Sufi consider their pir as murshid and not like an Ismaili Imam.?

The Imam is also a mursheed in our tariqah as per verses:

ejee murshid kaamal ku(n) nahi jaanne momano
sotaa jugame(n) fire jesaa a(n)dhaa.........................11

O momins! the ones who do not recognise the Perfect
Master (Teacher), wander in this age(world) as blind ones.

ejee murshid maanore apane man chinta su(n)
saa(n)heeyaa dil maa(n)he hardam huzur......................13

Follow the Master with conviction of your heart and mind,
then you will realise that the Lord is indeed always present in your hearts.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22776

Who is AL KITAB according to Ismailis beliefs?

The Imam/Pir

Wikipedia's pir is not equivalent to Satpunthi Pir. Satpunthi Pir is Noor e Muhammadi hence spiritually higher than Wiki's pir.

My other question, who is AL KITAB, your answer is Imam/Pir.
Please make up your mind either should be Imam only or Pir solely.

[Admin]

AL Kitab is Piratan aspect of God.

Al Kitab is Farman coming out of the Noor - e Imamat. The Word. The whole creation is Farman, nothing is outside God. Imam is the Essence which instaured the Noor of the Pir, the Kitab. Since Imam is beyond attributs, when we talk of God, we can only refer to the Noor e Piratan, God the Creator, Allah, THE Book.

This is of course my belief, no one is obliged to accept it. I am just giving this feedback as far as my understanding of the Kitab. I was going to say the content (not the paper) of the Golden Edition Farmans is also part of "THE BOOK", LOL

[kmaherali]

Wikipedia's pir is not equivalent to Satpunthi Pir. Satpunthi Pir is Noor e Muhammadi hence spiritually higher than Wiki's pir..

According to MSMS in his Farman, Mowlana Rumi attained Fanna fi Allah and hence becoming the mazhar of the Niranjan. In Sufism it is possible for one to attain the station of the Imam and the Pir, the difference being that station is attained through spiritual efforts of purification in the case of Sufism, whereas the Imams are pure by birth and are recognised as such. Mowlana Rumi says about his Pir Mursheed Shams;

It is not right that I should call you human [banda, servant]
But I am afraid to call you God [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2768).

Shamsulhaqq [Sun of Divine Truth], if I see in your clear mirror
Nothing but God, I am worse than an infidel! (Diwan-i 1027).

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2711). 3

My other question, who is AL KITAB, your answer is Imam/Pir.
Please make up your mind either should be Imam only or Pir solely.

Of course the Imam is also the Pir. I mentioned Imam/Pir when you have a situation when the Pir is someone other than the Imam as Pir Sadardeen.

[kmaherali]

VARANASI

Varanasi also known as Benares, or Kashi, is a North Indian city on the banks of the Ganges in Uttar Pradesh,

Did a quick search for "kaashi" and the following verses mention it.

Jire viraa aa ghatte paanch-e sun Pahelaaj mugataa
jenne a-gnaani aap sinchaai-yaa;
re viraa saat-e Harichandr Rohidaas Taaraa raanni,
je kaashimaa aap vechaayaa re viraa aaj anand 7

Aa ghatte saas usaas http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3799

Eji Kaashiye jai bhoraa tame Gangaa maanhe naao
amne tamne jenne sirajiyaa te kiyaan thaki paavo juo juo 3

Bhoraa re bhoraa maanavi http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4080

Tyaare bhagat Harichandra Taaraa Raanni Lochanaa kunvar Rohidaas e jann trann kaashi khandd maa vechaaviyaa sat sun,
tenne maathe khadd naa pulaa lidhaa jeh;
Te bhagate enni pere aapaj galiaa, tyaare amraapuri lidhaa chhe teh 96

Tyaare Vishvaamitra kaashi khandd nagar maa gayaa,
ane braahmann bhojan velaa thai chhe jyaan;
Haare baai taaraa kunvar ne sarp-e ddasiyo, pann sati sat na chukaa tyaan 154

Te daint aaj nav khandd maa bharpur vyaapak rahi kare chhe kaam,
Te kaashi vinaashi naath japaave chhe naam 5

Das Avtar - Motto http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/30598

Jire bhaai re tiyaan thi Guru ji aap sadhaariyaa
aaviyaa kaashi khandh maahe ji 1

Jire bhaai re dait-nu tiyaan jaamp japaay
kaashi vennaasi keve naath ji 2

Jire bhaai tiyaan Gur-ji aap padhaariyaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3919

[shivaathervedi]

AL Kitab is Piratan aspect of God.

Al Kitab is Farman coming out of the Noor - e Imamat. The Word. The whole creation is Farman, nothing is outside God. Imam is the Essence which instaured the Noor of the Pir, the Kitab. Since Imam is beyond attributs, when we talk of God, we can only refer to the Noor e Piratan, God the Creator, Allah, THE Book.

This is of course my belief, no one is obliged to accept it. I am just giving this feedback as far as my understanding of the Kitab. I was going to say the content (not the paper) of the Golden Edition Farmans is also part of "THE BOOK", LOL

Pir is not AL KITAB. Mowla Ali said," ANA ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI".
I am THAT BOOK in which there is no doubt. Please note that word is used ZALIK (THAT) and not HAZA (THIS). Therefore ALI is THE BOOK, in other words LOH E MAHFUZ.

DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAWEY
PIR SADARDIN

You wrote, "since Imam is beyond attributes when we talk of God".But NOOR is one of His attributes, so you implied that Nirinjin is not Noor.
You wrote," whole creation is farman", you are right the first farman was KALAM E KUN and from that emanated Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali.

[shivaathervedi]

Wikipedia's pir is not equivalent to Satpunthi Pir. Satpunthi Pir is Noor e Muhammadi hence spiritually higher than Wiki's pir..

According to MSMS in his Farman, Mowlana Rumi attained Fanna fi Allah and hence becoming the mazhar of the Niranjan. In Sufism it is possible for one to attain the station of the Imam and the Pir, the difference being that station is attained through spiritual efforts of purification in the case of Sufism, whereas the Imams are pure by birth and are recognised as such. Mowlana Rumi says about his Pir Mursheed Shams;

It is not right that I should call you human [banda, servant]
But I am afraid to call you God [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2768).

Shamsulhaqq [Sun of Divine Truth], if I see in your clear mirror
Nothing but God, I am worse than an infidel! (Diwan-i 1027).

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2711). 3

My other question, who is AL KITAB, your answer is Imam/Pir.
Please make up your mind either should be Imam only or Pir solely.

Of course the Imam is also the Pir. I mentioned Imam/Pir when you have a situation when the Pir is someone other than the Imam as Pir Sadardeen.

Please analyse 3 couplets of Romi you quoted. In first couplet, he said," but I am afraid to call you God", so Romi was not confidant to openly call Shams Khuda. ( in Persian Khuda has various meanings)
In second couplet he said, "I see in your clear mirror nothing but God". He used the word mirror in allegorical form. Here mirror is a medium through which Romi sees the image of God. Therefore Shams is a medium or intercessor. Imam said God is beyond imagination.
In third couplet he mentioned, "you are either light or light of God". Again he is not sure what he visioned in mirror was that light of Khuda or Khuda himself.

Pir is not AL KITAB. Ali is AL KITAB. Mowla Ali said," ANA ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI" means I am THAT BOOK in which there is no doubt.
You did not elaborate;

DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY

PIR SADARDIN.

[Admin]

Pir is not AL KITAB. Ali is AL KITAB. Mowla Ali said," ANA ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI" means I am THAT BOOK in which there is no doubt.

If you were right there would not exist any KITAB of Farman by IMAM named PIR Pandiayati Jawanmardi.

In some tradition, they call PIr any learned person. In our tradition, we call Pir those recognised Pirs confirmed as Pir by our Imam (we call them satadhari Pirs). We respect those Pirs even though none is a Khoja, they are either partially or tottaly Persian or Arabs or Turkish, European.

The fact that you are from a tradition that calls Pir anyone learned man or buzurg, be it Tom, Dick or Harry, is confusing your understanding in this matter.

The same goes for the word Mowlana. When Ismialis say Mowlana it has some connotation which is different from when non-Ismaili say MOwlana (for example Mowlana Rumi or or the Mowlana in Pakistan, there are dime and dozen, choose your pick)

[shivaathervedi]

Pir is not AL KITAB. Ali is AL KITAB. Mowla Ali said," ANA ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI" means I am THAT BOOK in which there is no doubt.

If you were right there would not exist any KITAB of Farman by IMAM named PIR Pandiayati Jawanmardi.

In some tradition, they call PIr any learned person. In our tradition, we call Pir those recognised Pirs confirmed as Pir by our Imam (we call them satadhari Pirs). We respect those Pirs even though none is a Khoja, they are either partially or tottaly Persian or Arabs or Turkish, European.

The fact that you are from a tradition that calls Pir anyone learned man or buzurg, be it Tom, Dick or Harry, is confusing your understanding in this matter.

The same goes for the word Mowlana. When Ismialis say Mowlana it has some connotation which is different from when non-Ismaili say MOwlana (for example Mowlana Rumi or or the Mowlana in Pakistan, there are dime and dozen, choose your pick)

I have quoted saying of Mowla Ali," ANA ZALIKAL KITABU LA RAIB FIHI" from Ismaili books also quoted in many Shia books.
IS PIR SUPERIOR THAN ALI?
You know well the back ground of PINDIYAT. Still discussion is on who wrote Pindiyat, Imam Mustansirbillah second or Imam Mustansirbillah third. Any way Pindiyat is a farman book of advises to momineen and there is no mention of Universe or cosmology, about all creations and souls and events.
These are in LOH E MAHFUZ who is Ali.
You did not elaborate the couplet by Pir Sadardin;
DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY.

[ismaili103]

IS PIR SUPERIOR THAN ALI?

ALI, NABI YAKH KHUDA, HAQ SHANASI DAAF E BALA.

Niether Ali is superior than Muhammad nor Muhammad is superior than Ali.

We can't distinguish between our Mother and Father, those who are distinguishing are Idiots.

[kmaherali]

Please analyse 3 couplets of Romi you quoted. In first couplet, he said," but I am afraid to call you God", so Romi was not confidant to openly call Shams Khuda. ( in Persian Khuda has various meanings).

When he says that he is afraid, it is a poetic way of saying that he is saying something offensive to the majority of the Sunnis around him - that he would be accused of committing shirk. That was also another way of saying that he meant the term khuda to be God, otherwise there was no reason to be a afraid if he meant something or someone other than God.

In reality he was not afraid because he has mentioned it in the Divan for all to read.

In second couplet he said, "I see in your clear mirror nothing but God". He used the word mirror in allegorical form. Here mirror is a medium through which Romi sees the image of God. Therefore Shams is a medium or intercessor. Imam said God is beyond imagination..

The use of mirror is to denote that he is reflecting God perfectly. There is no shortcoming. It is not a medium but something that clearly shows you the image of God. He is the Mazhar. He makes that which is batin zaher.

Imam is beyond imagination through our normal faculties, but he is not beyond imagination through the third eye. Pir Sadardeen has also said that he has seen God in the form of the Imam with his own eyes just as Rumi saw Shams:

Jire vaalaa saravanne sunneaa te men nayanne sun ditthaa,
hun to bhavo bhav daasi tamaari re vaalaa;

O dear ones! Whatever I have heard about the Imam, I have seen with my own eyes. I have remained the humble maiden for ages.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3801

jeere vaalaa dev jugatmaa(n) me pari bhram deetthaa
te satgur saaheb soi - re vaalaa
janamo janamanee sharannaagat raakhee
te aveechal pad mugataai - re vaalaa.................4

In the world of spirits, I saw Him, as the Supreme Lord.
He indeed is the True Guide, the Imaam. He has accepted my surrender and submission of many births and has bestowed the everlasting exalted rank of freedom.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23135

In third couplet he mentioned, "you are either light or light of God". Again he is not sure what he visioned in mirror was that light of Khuda or Khuda himself.

In the 3rd couplet he says:

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2711). 3

That means that if he says Shams is God then it would be considered as Kufr according to the majority interpretation of Islam and hence he would be a Kafir. Therefore in the next line he is saying that "You are either the light of God or God. It means that if he says that he is light of God then perhaps it would be considered Islamic to avoid being called Kafir.

But if you consider all the three couplet together, he is very emphatic that Shams is nothing but God

[shivaathervedi]

IS PIR SUPERIOR THAN ALI?

ALI, NABI YAKH KHUDA, HAQ SHANASI DAAF E BALA.

Niether Ali is superior than Muhammad nor Muhammad is superior than Ali.

We can't distinguish between our Mother and Father, those who are distinguishing are Idiots.

Pirs are not superior than Ali.
Ali nominates Pir.

LA THI UN ZAAT KAHAWEY
JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAHI(N) JAAWEY

DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY ( PIR SADARDIN )

Please can you explain what Pir Sadardin meant by ," PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY".

[shivaathervedi]

Please analyse 3 couplets of Romi you quoted. In first couplet, he said," but I am afraid to call you God", so Romi was not confidant to openly call Shams Khuda. ( in Persian Khuda has various meanings).

When he says that he is afraid, it is a poetic way of saying that he is saying something offensive to the majority of the Sunnis around him - that he would be accused of committing shirk. That was also another way of saying that he meant the term khuda to be God, otherwise there was no reason to be a afraid if he meant something or someone other than God.

In reality he was not afraid because he has mentioned it in the Divan for all to read.

In second couplet he said, "I see in your clear mirror nothing but God". He used the word mirror in allegorical form. Here mirror is a medium through which Romi sees the image of God. Therefore Shams is a medium or intercessor. Imam said God is beyond imagination..

The use of mirror is to denote that he is reflecting God perfectly. There is no shortcoming. It is not a medium but something that clearly shows you the image of God. He is the Mazhar. He makes that which is batin zaher.

Imam is beyond imagination through our normal faculties, but he is not beyond imagination through the third eye. Pir Sadardeen has also said that he has seen God in the form of the Imam with his own eyes just as Rumi saw Shams:

Jire vaalaa saravanne sunneaa te men nayanne sun ditthaa,
hun to bhavo bhav daasi tamaari re vaalaa;

O dear ones! Whatever I have heard about the Imam, I have seen with my own eyes. I have remained the humble maiden for ages.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3801

jeere vaalaa dev jugatmaa(n) me pari bhram deetthaa
te satgur saaheb soi - re vaalaa
janamo janamanee sharannaagat raakhee
te aveechal pad mugataai - re vaalaa.................4

In the world of spirits, I saw Him, as the Supreme Lord.
He indeed is the True Guide, the Imaam. He has accepted my surrender and submission of many births and has bestowed the everlasting exalted rank of freedom.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23135

In third couplet he mentioned, "you are either light or light of God". Again he is not sure what he visioned in mirror was that light of Khuda or Khuda himself.

In the 3rd couplet he says:

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, [khuda]! (Diwan-i 2711). 3

That means that if he says Shams is God then it would be considered as Kufr according to the majority interpretation of Islam and hence he would be a Kafir. Therefore in the next line he is saying that "You are either the light of God or God. It means that if he says that he is light of God then perhaps it would be considered Islamic to avoid being called Kafir.

But if you consider all the three couplet together, he is very emphatic that Shams is nothing but God

NIRIJIN; means unable to be seen. ( naa qabil e dheed ).
Mowla Ali said for Allah," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM"
When an entity is beyond imagination and comprehension, how come a person can see HIM. Romi has use the word Shams (sun) in allegorical form.
Shams himself was not God but a medium or intercessor to achieve the goal.

Word khuda literally can be used in different forms and meanings.

Mostly Sufis consider murshid as khuda, now that particular murshid who is called khuda in turn had considered his murshid as khuda. Therefore it could be the chain of khuda(s) never ending.

I have quoted twice the following ginanic couplets of Pir sadardin but no response from you, Admin, 103 or other ginani. You are silent may be these couplets are going against you people's ideology.
Please elaborate;
LA THI UN ZAAT KAHAWEY
JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAHI(N) JAAWEY
DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY (PIR SADARDIN)

When Pir Paigambers can not visualize Him, how can Romi be!!

[kmaherali]

NIRIJIN; means unable to be seen. ( naa qabil e dheed ).
Mowla Ali said for Allah," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM"
When an entity is beyond imagination and comprehension, how come a person can see HIM. Romi has use the word Shams (sun) in allegorical form.
Shams himself was not God but a medium or intercessor to achieve the goal.!!

In Bhagavad Gita chapter 11

Arjuna asks Lord Krishna:

3. I have heard thy words of truth, but my soul is yearning to see: to see thy form as God of this all.

4. If thou thinkest, O my Lord, that it can be seen by me, show me, O god of Yoga, the glory of thine own Supreme being.

Lord Krishna responds:

5. By hundreds and then by thousands, behold, Arjuna, my manifold celestial forms of innumerable shapes and colours.

6. Behold the gods of the sun, and those of fire and light; the gods of storm and lightning, and the two luminous charioteers of heaven. behold, descendant of Bharata, marvels never seen before.

7. See now the whole universe with all things that move and move not, and whatever thy soul may yearn to see. See it all as one in me.

8. But thou never canst see me with these thy mortal eyes: I will give thee divine sight (Deedar). Behold my wonder and glory.

14. Trembling with awe and wonder, Arjuna bowed his head, and joining his hands in adoration he thus spoke to his God.

Arjuna responds to the Deedar

15. I see in thee all the gods, O my God; and the infinity of the beings of thy creation. I see god Brahma on his throne of lotus, and all the seers and serpents of light.

16. All around I behold thy Infinity: the power of thy innumerable arms, the visions from thy innumerable eyes, the words from thy innumerable eyes, the words from thy innumerable mouths, and the fire of life of thy innumerable bodies. Nowhere I see a beginning or middle or end of thee, O God of all, Form Infinite!

17. I see the splendor of an infinite beauty which illumines the whole universe. It is thee! with thy crown and scepter and circle. How difficult thou art to see! But I see thee: as fire, as the sun, blinding, incomprehensible.

18. Thou art the Imperishable, the highest End of knowledge, the support of this vast universe. Thou, the everlasting ruler of the law of righteousness, the Spirit who is and who was at the beginning.

19. I see thee without beginning, middle, or end; I behold thy infinite power, the power of thy innumerable arms. I see thine eyes as the sun and the moon. And I see thy face as a sacred fire that gives light and life to the whole universe in the splendor of a vast offering.

20. Heaven and earth and all the infinite spaces are filled with thy Spirit; and before the wonder of thy fearful majesty the three worlds tremble.

For more go to:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 06&start=0

About Shams, I have explained in my post why he was indeed God to Rumi by way of 'being afraid' and the use of Kufr - infidel. So I will not repeat again. Go back to my post.

Mostly Sufis consider murshid as khuda, now that particular murshid who is called khuda in turn had considered his murshid as khuda. Therefore it could be the chain of khuda(s) never ending.!!

Nothing wrong with that, infact good for the society if there are indeed multiple mazhars of God.

I have quoted twice the following ginanic couplets of Pir sadardin but no response from you, Admin, 103 or other ginani. You are silent may be these couplets are going against you people's ideology.
Please elaborate;
LA THI UN ZAAT KAHAWEY
JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAHI(N) JAAWEY
DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY (PIR SADARDIN)

When Pir Paigambers can not visualize Him, how can Romi be!!

I have doubts about Buj Nirinjan being composed by Pir Sadardeen. I have explained in the thread Bhuj Nirinjan. I don't agree with what you have quoted.

[Admin]

I have my undertanding on this.

At the most I can agree that few verses of Bhuj Nirinjan pertaining to shariah have been added recently (last 200 years) to the original text of Pir Sadardin. Not the entire work. But I am not an expert in Bhuj Nirinjan studies.

If you read Corbin, he has beautifully explained our concept of

"Hari Anant te jo Ant tun hi janre ji"

which is that the name Allah (for the light of Piratan, Muhammad) comes from the root "whl" meaning nostalgia which represent the nostalgia of the first being instaured (not emanated) named Allah which was unable to understand its essence (Imam) and its origin though longing to reach it's origin, thus named itself "Allah".

[shivaathervedi]

I have my undertanding on this.

At the most I can agree that few verses of Bhuj Nirinjan pertaining to shariah have been added recently (last 200 years) to the original text of Pir Sadardin. Not the entire work. But I am not an expert in Bhuj Nirinjan studies.

If you read Corbin, he has beautifully explained our concept of

"Hari Anant te jo Ant tun hi janre ji"

which is that the name Allah (for the light of Piratan, Muhammad) comes from the root "whl" meaning nostalgia which represent the nostalgia of the first being instaured (not emanated) named Allah which was unable to understand its essence (Imam) and its origin though longing to reach it's origin, thus named itself "Allah".

Regarding your shariyah portions of ginan added in Bhuj Nirijin is not correct. The reason is MSMS should not have allowed that kind of addition.
Till today the couplets which I mentioned beside complete parts are recited in JK and on top of that Bhuj Nirinjin is available on heritage site.
No doubt God knows every thing from beginning that's why He is called ALEEM AND KHBEER.

[shivaathervedi]

NIRIJIN; means unable to be seen. ( naa qabil e dheed ).
Mowla Ali said for Allah," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM"
When an entity is beyond imagination and comprehension, how come a person can see HIM. Romi has use the word Shams (sun) in allegorical form.
Shams himself was not God but a medium or intercessor to achieve the goal.!!

In Bhagavad Gita chapter 11

Arjuna asks Lord Krishna:

3. I have heard thy words of truth, but my soul is yearning to see: to see thy form as God of this all.

4. If thou thinkest, O my Lord, that it can be seen by me, show me, O god of Yoga, the glory of thine own Supreme being.

Lord Krishna responds:

5. By hundreds and then by thousands, behold, Arjuna, my manifold celestial forms of innumerable shapes and colours.

6. Behold the gods of the sun, and those of fire and light; the gods of storm and lightning, and the two luminous charioteers of heaven. behold, descendant of Bharata, marvels never seen before.

7. See now the whole universe with all things that move and move not, and whatever thy soul may yearn to see. See it all as one in me.

8. But thou never canst see me with these thy mortal eyes: I will give thee divine sight (Deedar). Behold my wonder and glory.

14. Trembling with awe and wonder, Arjuna bowed his head, and joining his hands in adoration he thus spoke to his God.

Arjuna responds to the Deedar

15. I see in thee all the gods, O my God; and the infinity of the beings of thy creation. I see god Brahma on his throne of lotus, and all the seers and serpents of light.

16. All around I behold thy Infinity: the power of thy innumerable arms, the visions from thy innumerable eyes, the words from thy innumerable eyes, the words from thy innumerable mouths, and the fire of life of thy innumerable bodies. Nowhere I see a beginning or middle or end of thee, O God of all, Form Infinite!

17. I see the splendor of an infinite beauty which illumines the whole universe. It is thee! with thy crown and scepter and circle. How difficult thou art to see! But I see thee: as fire, as the sun, blinding, incomprehensible.

18. Thou art the Imperishable, the highest End of knowledge, the support of this vast universe. Thou, the everlasting ruler of the law of righteousness, the Spirit who is and who was at the beginning.

19. I see thee without beginning, middle, or end; I behold thy infinite power, the power of thy innumerable arms. I see thine eyes as the sun and the moon. And I see thy face as a sacred fire that gives light and life to the whole universe in the splendor of a vast offering.

20. Heaven and earth and all the infinite spaces are filled with thy Spirit; and before the wonder of thy fearful majesty the three worlds tremble.

For more go to:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 06&start=0

About Shams, I have explained in my post why he was indeed God to Rumi by way of 'being afraid' and the use of Kufr - infidel. So I will not repeat again. Go back to my post.

Mostly Sufis consider murshid as khuda, now that particular murshid who is called khuda in turn had considered his murshid as khuda. Therefore it could be the chain of khuda(s) never ending.!!

Nothing wrong with that, infact good for the society if there are indeed multiple mazhars of God.

I have quoted twice the following ginanic couplets of Pir sadardin but no response from you, Admin, 103 or other ginani. You are silent may be these couplets are going against you people's ideology.
Please elaborate;
LA THI UN ZAAT KAHAWEY
JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAHI(N) JAAWEY
DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAWEY
PIR PAIGAMBER TOEI NA PAAWEY (PIR SADARDIN)

When Pir Paigambers can not visualize Him, how can Romi be!!

I have doubts about Buj Nirinjan being composed by Pir Sadardeen. I have explained in the thread Bhuj Nirinjan. I don't agree with what you have quoted.

God is a mystery can't be understood or to be explained to any one in reality.
I wander you neglected words of Mowla Ali that," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM". Let me quote again a couplet of Pir Sadardin;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPANA PAYA
TEM SAMAJH SAMJH PACHHTAI
No one can explain HIM in reality, those who did is/was in allegorical form.
Human beings do not know spiritual language.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MA JIVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PANI TENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTU NATHI". MSMS
Therefore I reject your notion of Shams as God.

For Mazhar of Allah you wrote," In fact good for society if indeed there are multiple Mazhars of God". With multiple Mazhars of God there will be disturbance. It is said," Many hands spoil the work". In Islamic world we can see the differences in sufi community. SHIVA IS ALSO MAZHAR OF OM.
You have doubted about Bhuj Nirijin, on what ground. Still Bhuj Nirijin is recited in JK. IF THERE HAS BEEN DOUBT THEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESTRICTED BY IMAM OR ITREB. You have quoted and discussed this granth on heritage!!

[Admin]

No doubt God knows every thing from beginning

No doubt but the one you call God is not the one I call God.

Lets agree to say God knows everything and not discuss who is God and who is not.

When there is 2 sides in a coin, one that gives the value is the one where the amount is writen though the other side has a beautiful picture which is the attributs but the value exist only because of one side of that coin which is of essence.

[kmaherali]

God is a mystery can't be understood or to be explained to any one in reality.
I wander you neglected words of Mowla Ali that," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM". Let me quote again a couplet of Pir Sadardin;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPANA PAYA
TEM SAMAJH SAMJH PACHHTAI
No one can explain HIM in reality, those who did is/was in allegorical form.
Human beings do not know spiritual language.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MA JIVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PANI TENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTU NATHI". MSMS
Therefore I reject your notion of Shams as God.!!

God cannot be known, understood or explained through ordinary means but he can be through extraordinary means of Divine sight as alluded in the Bhagavad Gita (11). Therefore those who have known through Maarifat and hence become Fanna can say that they have 'seen' God in their Master. MSMS says that Rumi attained Fanna. If Rumi attained Fanna, then his Master would also have attained it and hence became God.

For Mazhar of Allah you wrote," In fact good for society if indeed there are multiple Mazhars of God". With multiple Mazhars of God there will be disturbance. It is said," Many hands spoil the work". In Islamic world we can see the differences in sufi community. SHIVA IS ALSO MAZHAR OF OM.!!

Authentic Mazhars do not fight each other. If they fight each other, then they are not authentic - they are fake!

You have doubted about Bhuj Nirijin, on what ground. Still Bhuj Nirijin is recited in JK. IF THERE HAS BEEN DOUBT THEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESTRICTED BY IMAM OR ITREB. You have quoted and discussed this granth on heritage!!

As I said I have explained on the thread about Bhuj Niranjan in the Ginan Section: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8826

Please go there. Bhuj Nirinjan is an enlightened work so it is OK if it is recited in JK. But I have doubted about whether it is composed by Pir Sadardeen and hence some parts such as the one you have quoted do not sound like being part of Satpanth tradition.

[erumsuleman]

I think this is my first or may be post in this topic.
I have seen that there has been a lot of discussion on buj nirinjan authorship that whether is it pir sadardins composition or not and i have seen that few members usually doubt on its authorship due to there are some parts which contain a little bit of shariat.
I would like to recommend them that they must study different ginans first and then get involve into such critical topic such as deciding authorship.
I have not posted anything on the authorsip of buj nirinjan because i know that there are many ginans and granths which contain shariat.
I think people who are posting things against the authorship of buj nirinjan must read man samjaani and then they would be able to realize that there are many ginans and granths which contain shriat.
I can bet that members who are doing critical analysis against the authorship of buj nirinjan are not so expert in doing critical analysis on ginans, otherwise one in many memebers on this website would have also raise up questions regarding the authorship of granths like man samjani, chattris kror and different other ginans.

Last but not the least i would be soon putting some unpublished ginans which contain shariat like hajj, roza etc

[kmaherali]

I think this is my first or may be post in this topic.
I have seen that there has been a lot of discussion on buj nirinjan authorship that whether is it pir sadardins composition or not and i have seen that few members usually doubt on its authorship due to there are some parts which contain a little bit of shariat.

There is a separate thread on Bhuj Nirinjan at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8826

Can we please continue the discussion on Bhuj Nirinjan there?

[shivaathervedi]

No doubt God knows every thing from beginning

No doubt but the one you call God is not the one I call God.

Lets agree to say God knows everything and not discuss who is God and who is not.

When there is 2 sides in a coin, one that gives the value is the one where the amount is writen though the other side has a beautiful picture which is the attributs but the value exist only because of one side of that coin which is of essence.

Does God is two sided like a coin.
The beautiful pictures on coin/bill keep changing.
Value of Indian/Pakistani Rupee keep changing. Does value of God has ups and downs like stock markets?
Is value of Indian/Pakistani Rupee equal to Canadian dollar?
Is valuable name of God listed on stock markets as other commodities?
GOD TUSI GREAT HO.

[shivaathervedi]

God is a mystery can't be understood or to be explained to any one in reality.
I wander you neglected words of Mowla Ali that," REASON AND SAGACITY CAN NOT VISUALIZE HIM". Let me quote again a couplet of Pir Sadardin;
JEM GU(N)GEY SAPANA PAYA
TEM SAMAJH SAMJH PACHHTAI
No one can explain HIM in reality, those who did is/was in allegorical form.
Human beings do not know spiritual language.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS;
"INSAAN JIYA(N) SUDHI DUNYA MA JIVTO CHHEY TIYA(N) SUDHI NOOR NU PANI TENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTU NATHI". MSMS
Therefore I reject your notion of Shams as God.!!

God cannot be known, understood or explained through ordinary means but he can be through extraordinary means of Divine sight as alluded in the Bhagavad Gita (11). Therefore those who have known through Maarifat and hence become Fanna can say that they have 'seen' God in their Master. MSMS says that Rumi attained Fanna. If Rumi attained Fanna, then his Master would also have attained it and hence became God.

For Mazhar of Allah you wrote," In fact good for society if indeed there are multiple Mazhars of God". With multiple Mazhars of God there will be disturbance. It is said," Many hands spoil the work". In Islamic world we can see the differences in sufi community. SHIVA IS ALSO MAZHAR OF OM.!!

Authentic Mazhars do not fight each other. If they fight each other, then they are not authentic - they are fake!

You have doubted about Bhuj Nirijin, on what ground. Still Bhuj Nirijin is recited in JK. IF THERE HAS BEEN DOUBT THEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN RESTRICTED BY IMAM OR ITREB. You have quoted and discussed this granth on heritage!!

As I said I have explained on the thread about Bhuj Niranjan in the Ginan Section: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8826

Please go there. Bhuj Nirinjan is an enlightened work so it is OK if it is recited in JK. But I have doubted about whether it is composed by Pir Sadardeen and hence some parts such as the one you have quoted do not sound like being part of Satpanth tradition.

Again you neglected the farman of MSMS I quoted; Let me quote again and see what is your opinion.
" INSAAN JIY(N)A SUDHI DUNIYA MA JIVTO CHHEY TIY(N)A SUDHI NOOR NU PANI TENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI", MSMS.
Fana dar fana dar fana is not a ticket to see the REAL movie of God. Shams or Romi are gods with small 'g', but can't be called Supreme God with capital 'G', THAT God is beyond imagination and comprehension as said by Imam.

I have Gita at home and have read chapter 11. Krishna showed BRIMANDH in his PINDH. What he showed Arjuna was unlimited hands, feet, faces, mouths and so on. But those were shown in human forms because Arjuna was not capable of understanding the reality of his spiritual form like Moses.
Those were not of noorani hands, feet, faces and so on. Krishna showed Arjuna limited mysteries of his spiritual kingdom.

How innocent public will distinguish in between fake Mazhars, so it is better there should be only one Mazhar of Allah. I am also considered a fake Mazhar of Shiva!!

[Admin]

How innocent public will distinguish in between fake Mazhars, so it is better there should be only one Mazhar of Allah. I am also considered a fake Mazhar of Shiva!!

No need to create more, we already have 8 fake Mazhar on this board and somehow they all point to your account.

[kmaherali]

Again you neglected the farman of MSMS I quoted; Let me quote again and see what is your opinion.
" INSAAN JIY(N)A SUDHI DUNIYA MA JIVTO CHHEY TIY(N)A SUDHI NOOR NU PANI TENA HAATH MA AAVI SHAKTO NATHI", MSMS.
Fana dar fana dar fana is not a ticket to see the REAL movie of God. Shams or Romi are gods with small 'g', but can't be called Supreme God with capital 'G', THAT God is beyond imagination and comprehension as said by Imam.!!

There is a Farman of MSMS which states: "Live in this world, and while living in this world, do good deeds. A momin can also be in union with the Ultimate in this world." (Dar es Salaam, Mar 9, 1925)

And MHI has said: "And one day, there will only be that Light, there will be no physical context left in the life of each individual. Therefore, seek out that Light and practise regularly, and be discreet." (London, August 6, 1994 )

So it is possible to be in Union with God and the Light in this life as well.

I have Gita at home and have read chapter 11. Krishna showed BRIMANDH in his PINDH. What he showed Arjuna was unlimited hands, feet, faces, mouths and so on. But those were shown in human forms because Arjuna was not capable of understanding the reality of his spiritual form like Moses.
Those were not of noorani hands, feet, faces and so on. Krishna showed Arjuna limited mysteries of his spiritual kingdom.!!

I think Arjuna was ready for the light and therefore he was shown light in the full splendour. Just read the whole Chapter 11. I have quoted the important verses and it appears you have not read them.

How innocent public will distinguish in between fake Mazhars, so it is better there should be only one Mazhar of Allah. I am also considered a fake Mazhar of Shiva!!

There is only one person who is recognized as the Mazhar and that is the Imam, but that does not preclude existence of others. One has to exercise his or her own judgement and use the gift of intellect to determine the true ones from the fake.

Otherwise you are saying that only an infinite minority has access to the Mazhar which is ridiculous.