Is Quran compilation complete?

[zznoor]

- yet you refuse to acknowledge - that the Quran has been tampered with.

Without un refutable evidence it is nothing but "baqwaas"

[ShamsB]

- yet you refuse to acknowledge - that the Quran has been tampered with.

Without un refutable evidence it is nothing but "baqwaas"

And as I've said - even if the Prophet were to apparate infront of you - and say this - you would call him Baqwaas.

To me - what you say is Baqwaas...

See the issue is and as i've stated before - you're not here to learn or to discuss or to debate - you are here to try to "convert" and actually to convert yourself ..and convince yourself that the path you've chosen is correct - it's your insecurity that is making you argue.
You keep spouting garbage over and over and over again.
Outside of telling me that the ayat was the kafiroon - who by the virtue of being kafiroon don't read or accept the quran....the ayat becomes pointless no?
So since the Quran is for Muslims - then that ayat is for muslims as well right?
or are you being selective in what you'll follow from what you say is untampered with and complete...and if so..then why not follow everything? why are you being selective? ...and if you tell me some ayats and suras were particular to the time and context - then you are saying that the Quran is contextual and bound in time - it is not the eternal message of Allah for all time - thus it is not "complete"?

I've said this before - take that one ayat from the quran and apply it to yourself.
not the Sura - just the ayat on it's own - and you'll understand the beauty of the message.

To you your faith - to me mine.

Let me and those like me be happy in our faith - following the Imam and you can be happy in yours - selectively following the quran where it seems fit to you.

keep in mind - we believe that our Imam's farmans are to be followed 100% no ifs ands and buts - unlike your practice of following the quran - which is haphazard and selective.
And you've already said that so yourself - that certain ayats don't apply to muslims - though it is only the muslims that are required to read and follow the quran - so how come allah put that message in there?

And in regards to being kafiroon - i already told you to make it easier on you - i am happy being kafiroon - as i don't accept the quran in it's present form is complete - it has been tampered with - fyi - this is Shi'i belief - not something I came up with.

so as per your standards I am kafiroon and i am quoting your book to tell you
TO YOU YOUR FAITH - TO ME MINE.

and please keep your "baqwaas" and "garbage" to yourself.

Shams

[nuseri]

Politics played by one frustrated blogger has again resulted in TU TU MAI MAI N ZIBAZODI between two members.
One a Haqiqati Momin .a fine scholar of Farmans n Ginans and other a Sharati sales person with candle light barking at the sun and asking show his Light being better than of candle.

To zznoor:
Isn't Quran looks tampered in placement of the flagship lines between Ayat in surah 5:3.
You still have not answered.even a dumb reader/student should ask this question to thier Quran quacks n Ulema council.

At Zahiri reading (not Baatin) Th.e Quran is just like a religious story book of the past.

[nuseri]

To Admin:

Ya Ali Madad.

I am still waiting for the extract in Gujarati of the verses 95-100 from Budd Avatar by Pir Sadarddin.Please I do not have the copy.

THODI MEHERBANI KAR DO.

[zznoor]

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad.
Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement

Amin

Can you provide a definitive reference to this?

What meeting? any memos?

This statement is in direct contradiction to a number of farmans of the Imam.
Also the historical facts that you state - are incorrect. The Quran was compiled during the time of Uthman - not Umar.

Shams

See you demand proof for MHS's Quote.

And by same token, I am asking for proof of deleted, altered or missing Ayas/Suras.
Without that it is just carping.

[ShamsB]

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad.
Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement

Amin

Can you provide a definitive reference to this?

What meeting? any memos?

This statement is in direct contradiction to a number of farmans of the Imam.
Also the historical facts that you state - are incorrect. The Quran was compiled during the time of Uthman - not Umar.

Shams

See you demand proof for MHS's Quote.

And by same token, I am asking for proof of deleted, altered or missing Ayas/Suras.
Without that it is just carping.

Do you ask your mother for proof as to who your father is?

I am asking proof because it is heresay.

You asked for the Imam's words - kmaherali had already quoted the farman on the first page.
I gave you Kalame-imame-mubeen with a few more farmans - and we have historical evidence -
And i used the Quran to legitimze the authority of the Imam.

And even if you say imam-e-mubeen is the Quran - then the ayat i quote about to you your and me mine - becomes even more relevant..but you don't want to accept that - so then...that causes another flaw in your argument.


Read Tabari - who is a sunni historian - he himself has said it..Uthman made changes to the Quran whilst compiling it.

The problem is...no proof is going to be enough for you...because you are in your head fighting a "jihad" against us apostates.

Once again - this is all because you want to satisfy your own insecurities that you are right and we are wrong.

Like i said -

To you is your faith and to me is mine.

and that is from the Quran...which you refuse to apply to this situation - which doesn't cease to surprised me.


If that makes me a non muslim so be it...does that make you happy?

that still doesn't change the fact Uthman left out verses when he compiled the Quran.

I refer you to Tabari..but once again - you'll ask Tabari for proof - main problem being - he's been dead about 1380 years now!

Please go to a sunni site where your views are going to be accepted.

You've come to a site with crazy and educated folks who aren't buying your "bakwas" or as I call it - BULLSHIT.



Shams

[ShamsB]

When the leaders of our concil asked Mowlana Hazar Imam if the Quran was tampered with or if anything was missing he said that the Quran which we are reading today, is the same Quran which was read/composed during the time of Phrophet Muhammad.
Ofcourse no one will no the TRUE Quran as that is with Hazar Imam. If you didnt already know the incident which happened during the time of Mowlana Ali. After the passing away of the phrophet, all of the people who were righting down the Quran came together and were wanting to put it all together. When Mowlana Ali came Omar who was the 2nd Kalif of Islam told Ali he said go away from here we do not need you here. Mowlana Ali replied he said okay but remember this you will not recive this interpretation of the Quran until the day of Judgement. So as you can see the TRUE Quran is with Hazar Imam and will continue to be with him until the day of Judgement

Amin

Can you provide a definitive reference to this?

What meeting? any memos?

This statement is in direct contradiction to a number of farmans of the Imam.
Also the historical facts that you state - are incorrect. The Quran was compiled during the time of Uthman - not Umar.

Shams

See you demand proof for MHS's Quote.

And by same token, I am asking for proof of deleted, altered or missing Ayas/Suras.
Without that it is just carping.

Do you ask your mother for proof as to who your father is?

I am asking proof because it is heresay.

You asked for the Imam's words - kmaherali had already quoted the farman on the first page.
I gave you Kalame-imame-mubeen with a few more farmans - and we have historical evidence -
And i used the Quran to legitimze the authority of the Imam.

And even if you say imam-e-mubeen is the Quran - then the ayat i quote about to you your and me mine - becomes even more relevant..but you don't want to accept that - so then...that causes another flaw in your argument.


Read Tabari - who is a sunni historian - he himself has said it..Uthman made changes to the Quran whilst compiling it.

The problem is...no proof is going to be enough for you...because you are in your head fighting a "jihad" against us apostates.

Once again - this is all because you want to satisfy your own insecurities that you are right and we are wrong.

Like i said -

To you is your faith and to me is mine.

and that is from the Quran...which you refuse to apply to this situation - which doesn't cease to surprised me.


If that makes me a non muslim so be it...does that make you happy?

that still doesn't change the fact Uthman left out verses when he compiled the Quran.

I refer you to Tabari..but once again - you'll ask Tabari for proof - main problem being - he's been dead about 1380 years now!

Please go to a sunni site where your views are going to be accepted.

You've come to a site with crazy and educated folks who aren't buying your "bakwas" or as I call it - BULLSHIT.



Shams

[zznoor]

Do you ask your mother for proof as to who your father is?
nice line, is it Drama line of "Humsafar"?
I am asking proof because it is heresay.
Statement from MHZ are also heresay. No proof given.

[zznoor]

ShamsB

Stop being victim
Nowhere I have called you Kafir. It is not my job to declare Taqfir.

BTW
Prophet SAW was asked to say to "non believers in Islam";

For you is your religion and for me is my religion

When Johovas witness comes to my door preaching I point out this line and say I am happy with my religion. And say
For you is your religion and for me is my religion
No Muslim should use this to justify their variant practice.

[zznoor]

that still doesn't change the fact Uthman left out verses when he compiled the Quran.

What was Hz Ali doing when Uthman was Khalif and when he was Khalif for 4+ years?

He had authority to restore left out verses. He was Hafiz par excellence and knew when and where every verse was revealed. He. New both Zahir and so called Batil tafseer of Quran.

Was there statements from six imams after Prophet?

[agakhani]

If, I say ( astgafirullah, Allah Muje maaf kare) as many Christians and Jews used to believe during the time of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) that Quran is not revealed from Allahtala and Mohammed made it by himself to make us people fool! what would you say sister? and what proof will you provide me and Shams? that they were wrong.

We, need solid reason, a solid proof, a solid evidence, no heresy or Baqwas or Ikdam, Tikadam jawab or gol gol baat please.

[Admin]

Was there statements from six imams after Prophet?

Hazrat Ali made such declaration at the batlle of Jang e Siffin and asked his followers to follow him as Bolto Quran.

Mowlana Mohamed Baqir said (Ref" Ummul Kitab, Wladimir Ivanow) that there was a quarter of the Quran that had been left out of the compilation.

I supposed that as someone believing in the first 6 Imam, that should be enough for you.

[ShamsB]

Do you ask your mother for proof as to who your father is?
nice line, is it Drama line of "Humsafar"?
I am asking proof because it is heresay.
Statement from MHZ are also heresay. No proof given.

These are published farmans.

And if you haven't noticed - i quoted the quran in regards to the Imam.

One in whom knowledge and authority of everything has been vested.

But - since the Imam is meaningless to you...

and i pointed you to Tabari..but you haven't even read that far.


Once again - what proof do you have that your father is your father - because your mother told you so?

[ShamsB]

ShamsB

Stop being victim
Nowhere I have called you Kafir. It is not my job to declare Taqfir.

BTW
Prophet SAW was asked to say to "non believers in Islam";

For you is your religion and for me is my religion

When Johovas witness comes to my door preaching I point out this line and say I am happy with my religion. And say
For you is your religion and for me is my religion
No Muslim should use this to justify their variant practice.

But to me - that applies to everyone.

Even Muslims - you aren't willing to accept my islam - and are trying to force me to accept yours.

You aren't happy letting me be..I however am happy letting you gain bliss in your ignorance.
How about you letting us?

How do you know what prophet was told? You were there?

once again - i am taking one ayat - not the whole sura and applying it to you.

Get a hint.

Shams

[shiraz.virani]

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust".

( Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.501)


Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said "Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Quran) yet we leave some of what he recites". Ubayy says, "I have taken it from the mouth of Allah's Apostle (saw) and will not leave it for anything whatever". But Allah said: None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar (2.106).

(Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.489)


In the end I would like to say what H.Umar said i.e

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'

(as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524)

@ above is what a_27826 said in his earlier posts and I second that ...because nobody knows whether the quran that we're reading is complete or not...so let's stop wasting our time and learn from what has survived i.e [QURAN & IMAM E ZAMAN]

[a_27826]

This is from Sura Al Kafirun
It is addressed to Kafirs (non believers in Islam)
In this sura Allah is commanding Prophet to say to Kafirs (non believers in Islam) that, for you is your religion whatever it may be. and for us us (Prophet and his Muslim followers) is our religion that is Islam.

A Muslim cannot defend his varient practice of Islam by quoting this Ays.

For your information Ismailis use Sura Al-Kafirun, when an unbeliever challenges their faith.

002:139 Say: 'Would you then dispute with us concerning God, who is our Lord and your Lord? Our deeds belong to us, and to you belong your deeds; Him we serve sincerely.

002:256 ‘No compulsion is there in religion’

010:041 If they cry lies to you, then say: 'I have my work, and you have your work; you are quit of What I do, and I am quit of what you do.'

018:029 Say: ‘The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.’

025:063 The servants of the All-merciful are those who walk in the earth modestly and who, when the ignorant address them, say, 'Peace';

028:055 When they hear idle talk, they turn away from it and say, 'We have our deeds, and you your deeds. Peace be upon you. We desire not the ignorant.'

034:025 Say: 'You will not be questioned concerning our sins, neither shall we be questioned as to what you do.'

039:036 And whomsoever God leads astray, no guide has he.

039:041 Whosoever is guided, is only guided to his own gain, and whosoever goes astray, it is only to his own loss

050:039 So be you patient under what they say, and proclaim your Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting,

073:010 And bear you patiently what they say, and forsake them graciously.

109:006 ‘to you your religion, and to me my religion!’

[a_27826]

@ above is what a_27826 said in his earlier posts and I second that ...because nobody knows whether the quran that we're reading is complete or not...so let's stop wasting our time and learn from what has survived i.e [QURAN & IMAM E ZAMAN]

I think it was Zina Khan reposted by admin.

i dont care much about ahadith collected by Bukhari & Co.

039:023 God has sent down the best "hadith" as a Book

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:

Still awaiting answer from zznoor (ayat 5:3), Admin for Budd Avaatar n Agakhani ( mantri saheb) a single alphabet answer.

It is said that a True n Wise person answers immd as he/she does not have think the ways of avoiding truth or devising a Lie.

AAP JANO AAPKA IMAAN JANE.

To 2782:
Appreciate your prompt answers and grasp on referring Ayats.
as you wrote
that the word spirit is Ruh in Arabic.

Is it same word in Ayat of Mary n Jesus( blew spirit) n also in ayat of spirit n angels in 50000 years).?

In eyes of God all are souls(ruh) on earth with human body?

Does this word ruh is same used for spirit n soul/souls?

[nuseri]

Just read in yesterday n today's newspaper.

That the Shariatis have in two blasts one each in Pakistan church n Nairobi Mall have killed around 70 persons at each place.

THIS IS PURE N TRUE REFLECTION OF WHAT THEY READ N PRACTICE.

In a another interesting article of 'Nikkah E Jihad" followed by Salafis of Tunisia of young girls n women give sexual comforts for rebels fighting In Syria with 20/50/100 of them n deliver child of Jihad.

They have interpreted it in Quran, give religious flavor to implied prostitution.
I think zznoor has hi meaning of the word Salaf.( sound like a virus strain to me)

They are looking for volunteer from women in their faith.(Please Google it).
SAHYAD JUNHAM BHI IN LOGO ZINDAGI SE ACCHI HOGI.

[a_27826]

Does this word ruh is same used for spirit n soul/souls?

Spirit = rooh in 002:087, 002:253, 004:171, 005:110, 015:029, 016:002, 16:102, 017:085, 017:085, and many more

Soul = nafs in 002:048, 002:072, 002:123, 002:233, 002:281, 003:025, 003:030, 003:145, and many many more

[nuseri]

To 2782:Ya Ali madad n Thanks

What is co relation between the words ruh n nafs?

If not what is the difference between both the words?

Does your log in name by any chance means nos of Ayats in Quran OR is it something else?

[a_27826]

What is co relation between the words ruh n nafs?

If not what is the difference between both the words?

017:085 They will question you concerning the Spirit. Say: 'The Spirit is of the bidding of my Lord. You have been given of knowledge nothing except a little.'

Its a difficult question for me, but someone else gave me this answer

1. Soul can leave the body temporarily (eg when you are asleep or in deep meditation etc) and goes away permanently at the time of death, whereas Spirit never leaves the body till at the time of death.

2. The soul is how you relate to others and how you understand yourself, whereas Spirit is how you relate to Allah.

3 Soul is the essence of all what makes us human and unique – our emotions, desires, experiences, thoughts, worries and joys etc , whereas, Spirit is the essence of our divine nature.

4 Soul can get dirt by sinning and can be cleansed by doing good deeds, whereas, Spirit is divine and cant get corrupted.

5 Soul desire this world, whereas, Spirit desire next world.


As you can see, in above, a little is said about Spirit.

I hope that helps.

[agakhani]

Still awaiting answer from zznoor (ayat 5:3), Admin for Budd Avaatar n Agakhani ( mantri saheb) a single alphabet answer.

Sorry Nuseri Baba, ( you should thanks Shiraz for this title "BABA" and I think it fits you very well!)



FYI:- There are many unanswered questions still awaiting answer from many participants including my self too in this forum, in my case following reason I do or do not answer:-
1, Whenever I see or think my answer will not change the questioner's mind and may be add fuel in his doubt then I intentionally avoid to give him answer
2, As I wrote earlier that I do not read all the post including KMaherali's and Admin post too, it is possible that I missed your question!.

3, Whenever I think I do not know the answer of the question I keep silent.
4, Some time I do not have enough time to answer.
5, The question doesn't have much important to me or it is against the forum policy.

It is my own policy not to write any Farmans of any Imams in this forum soif the question related to farmans of any imams then I do not give answer.

For the above reasons, I knowingly or unknowingly avoid answer of any questions I do not know why other scholars like ZZnoor and Admin has not answer you yet?

Now Baba Nuseri, will you please repeat your question and I will try to answer if I can with my little knowledge

[agakhani]

What is co relation between the words ruh n nafs?

If not what is the difference between both the words?

It is beautifully explained by a_27826 that what is Ruh, Spirit and soul are? as per quranic ayas but now I will explain it as per our ginans but before that let me put here a sermon of Hazarat Ali (s.a.) "The Nafs is like a wild horse and you are riding upon him, if you move your attention for one second, he will throw you off." "The restraining the soul (or self) from its appetite is the greatest holy war."
In out ginan our pirs has wrote that Nafs, Ruh and Jeev are all three different things.
Ruh/Soul is eternal it is sinless while our nafs and jeev are dirty and they force human being to do bad deeds.
Our pirs recognized "Ruh" as a 'HANS" in many ginans
"Hans moti charnare" "Bag Hans be patutara"

However it is very hard to point out difference between Nafs and Ruh.

[ismaili103]

agakhani bhai

according to one waez of late alwaez abu ali

soul is jeev or nafs
spirit is rooh

waez name is "spirit and soul" nt sure..

[a_27826]

In out ginan our pirs has wrote that Nafs, Ruh and Jeev are all three different things.

can you explain the meanings and the functions of the following (according to the Pirs)

1. Nafs,
2. Ruh and
3. Jeev ?

[nuseri]

To AgaKhani: Ya Ali Madad

For a one alphabet non reply,You have given a 14 lines posting.Have you ever thought of joining diplomatic services?

As for ruh n nafs.I am busy with Padhramni celebrations.

To 2782:
Just one info needed.If both are different.
Are both the words used in a single Ayat.(akin to spiritual soul).
It is beleived that man has one soul only and mortal mind n body.
Awarness of one's soul is spirituality of that person n said somewhere
all negative virtues kill the spirituality of that person.
It could also b Soul desires the divine n mind n body desires the world.

[agakhani]

can you explain the meanings and the functions of the following (according to the Pirs)

1. Nafs,
2. Ruh and
3. Jeev ?

Good question bro,

As per our ginans these above three things are different let start with
1, Nafs:- in ginan it is mentioned as "મન" "man"

Example:- "એજી 'મન' ને મારો તો મને મળો રાખું મારા તનડામાં ટાંકી જી "
Eji.. man ne maro to mane malo, rakhu mara tanadama tanki

2, Ruh:- Called as 'હંસ" "આત્મા" call soul / spirit in English
Example:-
એજી.. લાવો લાવો ઘાસ બંધાવું ત્રાટી,
ભાઈ ઉડ ગયા હંસલા ને પડ રહી માટી
Eji lavo lavo ghas bandhavu trati,
bhai ud gaya 'hansala' ne pad rahi mati,

3, Jeev:- called as "ચેતના" પ્રાણી you can call it energy in English.
Example:-
એજી જીવડા ને વારો પ્રાણી તમે જાગો,
જાગી જાગી આપના શાહજી ને આરાધો
Eji jivada ne varo prani tame jago
jagi jagi aapna shah ne aaradho પ્રાણી પ્રાણી

By the way many scholars uses the word soul for Ruh, while many scholars uses word spirit for Ruh if you read Memoirs of Agakhan in this book Sultan Mohammed shah used the word Soul for Ruh same way Rai Saab used soul word for Ruh in his many waez, however many other Christian scholars uses the word Spirit instead. however some consider Nafs as a soul!!. so there are many different opinions for the words soul and spirits and nafs.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Are translators,who may have read Quran at their level but not understood it.

Are they final authority on what English word matches closest to the word Nafs n Ruh?.

THEY ARE ALSO MAKING MISTAKES.I AM SURE OF IT.

When our Pir's thru baatin understanding of it has made it reasonably clear on the meaning of it.

The Quran copy I have I fell at Zahiri level the perfection of English translation is 95 % perfect and at Baatin it would less than 33% as all meanings would change ,so would the translation be.


Agakhani has correctly mentioned the meaning from Ginans.
the mind,which is a thinking faculty n the senses are Nafs.

As per present Farmans of MHI mentions Souls as Ruh in Hindi,Gujrati n Urdu translation.The translation are approved by MHI himself.

So the the word Ruh=Soul stand absolutely firm n binding for my study.
The blessing of soul to a person can be called as Spirit or an enlighted soul.( like in Jesus).
Trying to give a simple example.(baby baba jo theree)

A brain dead person( without thinking faculty) is said to have no nafs/jeev ,but a soul(RUH) n living body(JISM) at that period still embedded.

'Jeev/'Nafs can also b a poetic word to express the desire of the mental faculty inclination toward soul(spirituality) or toward the material world ( duniya).
With this this healthy debate now I feel I am maybe at 1.25% understanding of the Quran.( At 1 % level,I did had blind trust in the translators n placement of Ayats )

I feel Scholars should read on 'Nafs E Kul' and' Aql E Kul' topic by Dai Nasir Khusraw in academic presentation not in poetic form.
from my understanding akin to an Architect n the blue print of an Architect

[Admin]

Please stick in this thread to the title subject if you post here. You can discuss the Ruh and Aql and so on in another more appropriate thread. Thanks

Admin