Why not ismailis??

[unnalhaq]

Sukreet must be the same as taught by Pir Sadrdin until and unless Imam change and as you quote Farman earlier Imam can change it if He wants.

Ok, now do you and anyone for that fact, Know any such changes exists?

Do you know for the fact that any such changes (or none) in Sukreet (as thought by Pir Sadardeen) by Imam or any Farman? In other words do you know if Imam has made or approved changes in Sukreet (as you stated Imam changes it)?

[star_munir]

What do you mean?

[unnalhaq]

Sukreet must be the same as taught by Pir Sadrdin until and unless Imam change and as you quote Farman earlier Imam can change it if He wants.

Ok, now do you and anyone for that fact, Know any such changes exists?

Do you know for the fact that any such changes (or none) in Sukreet (as thought by Pir Sadardeen) by Imam or any Farman exist? In other words do you know if Imam has made or approved changes in Sukreet (as you stated unless Imam changes it)?

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad
No, I don't know if Imam has made or approved changes in Sukreet (as I stated unless Imam changes it ? but if you have any information you can share.

[unnalhaq]

I am not sure if you’d call it substitution or “changing of Form” of sukreet (you might want to verify with reliable people in UK) is chocolate (I have seen Hershey’s in the States, not at all the time but when the sukreet had gone bad or a key ingredient was left out). But I do not know if there was a Farman given in Europe (UK).

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad,
I was not aware about that Sukreet in Uk is in form of chocolate thanks for informing.
There were different forms of Sukreet in different time periods like as I mentioned earlier at the time of Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] it was made out of dates and as you quote the Farman earlier in your post in which Hazir Imam says,".... This will require that the Imam, from time to time, will give direction not only on worldly matters but on matters of the practice of the Faith, on the way it is taught. But remember, in our tariqah, the Imam is the sole authority to make those decisions, and he makes them from the roots of the past of the Shia tariqah and the appointment of Hazrat Ali. Remember that, because that is the essence, and at no time, must that be modified or changed."

What I meant earlier was that it is wrong to say that rite and ceremoines of khoja ismailis are influenced with hindusim. You are right that you can find some times this in other religions but you also find it from Islamic point of view. Thats because true religion is from begining of this world and message of all Prophets of God was of true religion. Thats different thing that after the death of dtifferent prophets their teachings were forgotten and religion got changed.
For exampple Niyaz
"Queen Tara and King Harishchandra. They used to drink Ameras from the small vessels."
On the other hand you can see examples from life of Prophet [PBUH] He also used to give Niyaz.
Take example of Chaanta..There is ceremony like Chaanta in Christanity called "Baptism" So does it mean that roots of Khoja ismailis were also from christanity thats why the ceremony of Chaanta was introduced. Definately not but you can find it from Islamic point of view too .
Hafiz Jalandhri wrote in his famous book Shahnama Islam that Prophet [PBUH] also gave Chaanta.

[unnalhaq]

Ya Ali Madad,
What I meant earlier was that it is wrong to say that rite and ceremoines of khoja ismailis are influenced with hindusim. You are right that you can find some times this in other religions but you also find it from Islamic point of view. Thats because true religion is from begining of this world and message of all Prophets of God was of true religion. Thats different thing that after the death of dtifferent prophets their teachings were forgotten and religion got changed.

I think you are trying to justify rituals and ceremonies that are of Hindu origins to of Ahal Al-Kitab's. As you know that is not just something I have noticed; others have posted the similar posts and this debate has been going on for at least a century or two.

Take example of Chaanta..There is ceremony like Chaanta in Christanity called "Baptism" So does it mean that roots of Khoja ismailis were also from christanity thats why the ceremony of Chaanta was introduced. Definately not but you can find it from Islamic point of view too .
Hafiz Jalandhri wrote in his famous book Shahnama Islam that Prophet [PBUH] also gave Chaanta.

First, you'd find that rites and rituals and ceremonies of Ahal Al-Kitab has an exclusive room in Ismailism since Ismailism is a part of Ahal Al-Kitab. Also Baptism’s counter part would be Byat not Chanta.

[star_munir]

As you wrote,"I think you are trying to justify rituals and ceremonies that are of Hindu origins to of Ahal Al-Kitab's."

I just want to clarify that Islam not means only what is in Arabic and Persian and one must not try to make it limited to Arabia and Iran.

As for this is hindusim and this is that ....the Imam has clearly answered in Memoirs of Aga Khan
"Our religion is Our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you can not, if you do not accept its tenets remain within it and claim to reform it.......There has never been any question of changing the Ismailis faith, that faith has remained the same and must remain the same."

Now I think every thing is cleared from above wordings of Imam no matter how long debate is.
Also there is Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah that You must not argue as to why such a type of Farman is made. If I say it a day then it is a day and If I say it a night then it is a night. You should act according to Imam's intelligence. Only those who live according to My Farmans are My true momin.

[unnalhaq]

As you wrote,"I think you are trying to justify rituals and ceremonies that are of Hindu origins to of Ahal Al-Kitab's."

I just want to clarify that Islam not means only what is in Arabic and Persian and one must not try to make it limited to Arabia and Iran.

As for this is hindusim and this is that ....the Imam has clearly answered in Memoirs of Aga Khan
"Our religion is Our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you can not, if you do not accept its tenets remain within it and claim to reform it.......There has never been any question of changing the Ismailis faith, that faith has remained the same and must remain the same."

Now I think every thing is cleared from above wordings of Imam no matter how long debate is.
Also there is Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah that You must not argue as to why such a type of Farman is made. If I say it a day then it is a day and If I say it a night then it is a night. You should act according to Imam's intelligence. Only those who live according to My Farmans are My true momin.

I think you are confusing several things here. One, is that the specific incident where SMS had made the comment on "...if I say it's day then it's day..."
The present Imam had made a Farman just to clarify this exact debate that is going on, about the Tradition. The Imams words are "...our tradition is Shia tradition..." He did not say Khoja Tradition because that is exactly what He wanted to clear it once for all.
Now, there are many cultural (material or non material) bleeds into a (our) faith and there are many traditions or customs that were kept because of the conversion process that had taken place few centuries ago. If you look as a whole (let make it simple for this example) from Ali there have been 1400 years of Shia (Ismaili) tradition and if you look at Khoja Tradition it is very young in comparison and it is tough to wean off of things that were non-Islamic or prior to conversion to Ismailisam.
To explain the matter of Islam being Arabian (Middle Eastern), well the fact is that it was originated there and Islam has its own flavor but once you add you're spices you tend to change the flavor.

[kmaherali]

If you look as a whole (let make it simple for this example) from Ali there have been 1400 years of Shia (Ismaili) tradition and if you look at Khoja Tradition it is very young in comparison and it is tough to wean off of things that were non-Islamic or prior to conversion to Ismailisam.
To explain the matter of Islam being Arabian (Middle Eastern), well the fact is that it was originated there and Islam has its own flavor but once you add you're spices you tend to change the flavor.

"The ceremonies and customs which you will be discussing are the backbones of our Faith, and for this reason your discussions, should be guided by clear thinking, restraint and, above all, faith.
"I am sure you will never forget that our Faith is based on thousands of years of history, and that we should learn from history and not to think that our past is of no use to us now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered." (extract from letter to the President, Ismailia Association for India, 25.9.1964)

From the above statement it is quite clear that our Faith did not start 1400 years back but rather thousands of years back. That would include periods covered in the Das Avtaars.

[unnalhaq]

"The ceremonies and customs which you will be discussing are the backbones of our Faith, and for this reason your discussions, should be guided by clear thinking, restraint and, above all, faith.

No you see you are mixing the Traditions with Faith, Our Faith is Ismaili Faith and There are different Traditions with in the Faith. And many people (like you and others) have convoluted your Tradition as an Ismaili Faith.

"I am sure you will never forget that our Faith is based on thousands of years of history, and that we should learn from history and not to think that our past is of no use to us now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered." (extract from letter to the President, Ismailia Association for India, 25.9.1964)

First,
How authentic is the statement that you have quoted? And is it hearsay? Or did someone along the line miss hear or understood/changed "Centuries" to "thousands of years"?

From the above statement it is quite clear that our Faith did not start 1400 years back but rather thousands of years back. That would include periods covered in the Das Avtaars.

Lastly,
I think I have said this on one of the forms on this site before to the exact same argument. Let’s say if it was true that the words “thousands of years” were in the letter. I would have to say is referring to Quranic-Years that refer to the time before the Prophets going back to Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah and on and on to Adam, including seconds (Second Adam and second Noah). You see, it’s the "thousands of years" of Aha-Al-Katib.

[kmaherali]

No you see you are mixing the Traditions with Faith, Our Faith is Ismaili Faith and There are different Traditions with in the Faith. And many people (like you and others) have convoluted your Tradition as an Ismaili Faith.)

Those were Imam's words not mine.

First,
How authentic is the statement that you have quoted? And is it hearsay? Or did someone along the line miss hear or understood/changed "Centuries" to "thousands of years"?.

These are from printed documents. It is not difficult to verify. The source has been provided.

Lastly,
I think I have said this on one of the forms on this site before to the exact same argument. Let’s say if it was true that the words “thousands of years” were in the letter. I would have to say is referring to Quranic-Years that refer to the time before the Prophets going back to Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah and on and on to Adam, including seconds (Second Adam and second Noah). You see, it’s the "thousands of years" of Aha-Al-Katib.

That is one way of interpreting it.

[unnalhaq]

Lastly,
I think I have said this on one of the forms on this site before to the exact same argument. Let’s say if it was true that the words “thousands of years” were in the letter. I would have to say is referring to Quranic-Years that refer to the time before the Prophets going back to Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Noah and on and on to Adam, including seconds (Second Adam and second Noah). You see, it’s the "thousands of years" of Aha-Al-Katib.

That is one way of interpreting it.[/quote]
I am glad that you understand the point. I think if people are going to call them selves followers of monotheistic religion i.e. Aha-Al-Katib then they must shed there polytheistic views. Remember I used the words monotheistic not monolithic, there is a difference and one must understand that.

[kmaherali]

I am glad that you understand the point. I think if people are going to call them selves followers of monotheistic religion i.e. Aha-Al-Katib then they must shed there polytheistic views. Remember I used the words monotheistic not monolithic, there is a difference and one must understand that.

Having said what I did, I think the monotheistic or rather the monorealistic faith of Islam extends beyond the Ahl-Kitab as per the following statement of Imam Sultan Muhammd Shah which has been quoted several times.

"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)

I think all Divinely inspired messengers taught monotheism. It is the diversity of this pure monotheism that we must recognise and not their subsequent perversions or corruptions as stated by ISMS as:

"In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead."

[unnalhaq]

...monotheistic or rather the monorealistic faith of Islam...

What is monorealistic?
Not all Divinely inspired messengers: Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China did or were able to convey the message of One God, instead they romanticized about physical idols.
I think you may be confusing monotheistic polylithic with monotheistic. What the 48th was explaining was that Islam is not monolithic but it is monotheistic.

[kmaherali]

What is monorealistic? .

"Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain."(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)

Not all Divinely inspired messengers: Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China did or were able to convey the message of One God, instead they romanticized about physical idols.
I think you may be confusing monotheistic polylithic with monotheistic. What the 48th was explaining was that Islam is not monolithic but it is monotheistic.

They all taught monotheism as per Imams statement "the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism..." They taught purity of the Faith in the one God which was corrupted subsequently.

[ShamsB]

What is monorealistic? .

"Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain."(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)

Not all Divinely inspired messengers: Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China did or were able to convey the message of One God, instead they romanticized about physical idols.
I think you may be confusing monotheistic polylithic with monotheistic. What the 48th was explaining was that Islam is not monolithic but it is monotheistic.

They all tuaght monotheism as per Imams statement "the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism..." They taught purity of the Faith in the one God which was corrupted subsequently.

Well said KMaherali.

Unnalhaq..a simple question..have you read the Gita?

it is full of monotheism...

"The Supreme Lord said: O Arjuna, now I shall explain to you My prominent divine manifestations, because My manifestations are endless. (10.19)

O Arjuna, I am the Atma abiding in the heart of all beings. I am also the beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings. (10.20)

I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of the creation, O Arjuna. Among the knowledge I am knowledge of the supreme Self. I am logic of the logician. (10.32)

I am the origin or seed of all beings, O Arjuna. There is nothing, animate or inanimate, that can exist without Me. (10.39)

There is no end of My divine manifestations, O Arjuna. This is only a brief description by Me of the extent of My divine manifestations. (10.40)

O Lord of the universe, I see You everywhere with infinite form, with many arms, stomachs, faces, and eyes. Neither do I see the beginning nor the middle nor the end of Your Universal Form. (11.16)

I believe You are the imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. You are the ultimate resort of the universe. You are the protector of eternal Dharma, and the imperishable primal spirit. (11.18)

The entire space between heaven and earth is pervaded by You alone in all directions. Seeing Your marvelous and terrible form, the three worlds are trembling with fear, O Lord. (11.20)"


Shams

[unnalhaq]

Unnalhaq..a simple question..have you read the Gita?

I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table
No seriously, if Gita was that important Quran would have had references just as Torah and Bible. Sorry guys no go

[star_munir]

I dont think Mukhi will havie it but you can check it out from Jamat Khana library may you can find there.
Otherwise you can read it from this website..
http://www.bhagavad-gita.us/

[star_munir]

Hope to get appropriate reply soon
Some questions for you Unal Haq
If you believe that Islam started 1400 years ago and some where you mention that hinduism is the oldest religion..This makes hindusim the true religion as the true religion must be from the begining of this world and even before and As per Quran the true religion in the eye of Allah is Islam so what do you think?
I am not saying you here to believe das avtars etc..its upto you to believe Prophets as per Memoirs or Avtars as per Ginan and Hadith which says that earth can not survive for a second without the presence of a living Imam, but dont say that its completly fake and only Christainity and Judaism are Ahl-e-Kitab. It is in hadiths so in history that there were 124000 Prophets so so you find all the names in Quran? Then why every time you say that because it isnt in Quran I will not believe....As per Islam Prophets were sent to every where but you think that none were sent to India as there is no mention of any one from India in Quran.
Also If you believe Imam as manifestation of Divine Light? Was there not any one before Hazrat Ali?

Apart from these questions I would like to write more in anectodes section of this forum I quoted several verses from scriptures of Hindusim about Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] which shows once it were also correct but with the passage of time there were changes in it. You have ignored that. I also sent you in mail a complete detail article which was actually I got from Shamsu but in that article besides Bible and Hindu scriptures there were also Prophesies from Parsi Scriptures.
Thus as it is in Ginan Moman Chetamani that,"All the religions that have been created they all have Ali as their solvent..."[verse 70]

[star_munir]

Some more things:
I have noticed several times your thinking on Ginans as you treat like some thing from hindu scriptures is quoted .Although it is not the case.As per Farmans teachings of Quran is in Ginans. There is no where in Ginan mention to worship idols, believe your husband as God etc. Yes you will surely find the names of Pahelaj, Harishchandra etc thats because history is important and in any religious scripture you can find historical examples. There is great knowldege on variety of subjects in Ginans but it seems you look it from only one side and ignore other. You can find several Quranic teachings in Indian language in Ginans as per Quran those who not gives Zakat are Kafir or unbeliever in Anant Akhado Pir Hassan Kabirdin compares those who not gives Zakat as Koravs who were unbelievers..For Arabs Olive Oil was very holy thats why you can see Ayat-e-Noor, it is also explain in Ginan Qayam Mehdi raho hasenda but instead olive oil it is written Ami Jal or Niyaz as accoding to Indian Khojas Niyaz is holy...so you will not find only Quranic Verses but also hadiths in Ginan. There is a Ginan which is about Hadith in which Jibrail says to Prophet [PBUH] that he will cometo erath 10 times, there are verses of Ginans regarding hadith that world can not survive without a living Imam etc etc...
Pir Shams Himself said,"The Guide dances to the tune of this song and sings the Quran to you."
In another Ginan it is "He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses.He himself has appeared to dance."
Now I hope every thing is clear. When you think certain customs as not Islamic then again think on it with broader mind and broader sense and try to find it from Islamic perspective which you think and believe as If there is some thing wrong practised by Ismailis dont you think Imam would immediately stop that.

[ShamsB]

Unnalhaq..a simple question..have you read the Gita?

I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table
No seriously, if Gita was that important Quran would have had references just as Torah and Bible. Sorry guys no go

Really..the arabs of Saudi Arabia at that time had heard of the Gita?
so Allah would've quoted it in the Quran and Mohammed's faith would've been accepted..as it is to this day..they look at Hindu's as Kaffir...
and they would've accept the Gita ...even as Ismailies..after numerous farmans of MSMS that he was Krishna have refused to accept the Quran..we think the muslims would've have accepted the quran..

Look at the cultural concept..the Jews and the Chrisitans were familiar to them..the Hindus weren't..thus the refernces...
also in the Memoirs..MSMS has referred to the Gita and that he has read the Gita..

First let go of your blinders..and go read the Gita..if for nothing else to broaden your horizons...
Ismailism teaches tolerance and acceptance..
forget Ismailism..ISLAM TEACHES TOLERANCE AND ACCEPTANCE...

in order for you to justify your claims to be the TRUE ismailie..go practise that...learn to accept diversity..learn how to agree to disagree...

Shams

[ShamsB]

Unnalhaq..a simple question..have you read the Gita?

I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table
No seriously, if Gita was that important Quran would have had references just as Torah and Bible. Sorry guys no go

Whilst you're at it..why don't you ask Mukhisaheb if he has a copy of the Qur'an or the Bible or the Torah behind him on the table.

You will find that none of those are inside the Jamat Khana Hall as well..(maybe in the Jamat Khana library..but the Gita might be there too..along with books that question ismaili history)
however..behind the mukhi's path or table you will find there maybe a book of Farmans by MHI (rightfully so) and maybe a book of Ginans...
If ginans weren't important would we recite them in Hazar Imam's presence?
Donot limit the boundaries of ismailism to a geographical area..religion is fluid..it is moving..it is evolving..constantly..i believe there is a farman of MHI..i hope i can find it somewhere...

you were in Dar es salaam...think of the ginan that was sung..was it Hinduistic at all?

Sami Avgun Am Tana Ma Juo..ame chiye Guneghar...chedo nakhi ni Saami Dhank jo...hun chu baal kunwar..maher karo mora saaiyan...

Sami Maa Baape amane janamiya..soopiya tamare sharan..have haath jaliya ni laaja aaljo..taaro tame taraan haar....maher karo mora saaiyan..

could somebody translate this for unnal haq?...i fear my translation maybe too hinduisitic for him...and please use the correct vernacular for Sami...

Shams.

[ShamsB]

...monotheistic or rather the monorealistic faith of Islam...

What is monorealistic?
Not all Divinely inspired messengers: Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China did or were able to convey the message of One God, instead they romanticized about physical idols.
I think you may be confusing monotheistic polylithic with monotheistic. What the 48th was explaining was that Islam is not monolithic but it is monotheistic.

my quotes from the Gita were to prove to you that Shri Krishna didn't romanticize one bit about physical idols?
my question to you about reading it.was to prove to you that you need to read the material..not believe in the sunni propoganda about it..
at the very least..read it so that you can understand it enough..instead of shooting your mouth off about it..
i believe with my quotes..i've shot down your theory that the Shri Krishna romanticized about physical idols..now you can stick your head in the sand and still insist that the gita talks about physical idols..but others reading the forum will know that you don't have an inkling of knowledge when it comes to that subject.
and if you really want to get a hold of the Gita..i beleive Barnes and Noble sell a decent translation of it...and it's in english...

Shams

[unnalhaq]

...some where you mention that hinduism is the oldest religion..This makes hindusim the true religion as the true religion must be from the begining of this world...

No, it does not mean that since Hinduism is the oldest it must be the one from the "beginning of this world". You are trying to mix the two.

...Hadith which says that earth can not survive for a second without the presence of a living Imam, but dont say that its completly fake and only Christainity and Judaism are Ahl-e-Kitab.

I think the words were that there has always been a guide that put/reminded people to fear God. Also you missed the Islam in AHl-Al-Kitab.

It is in hadiths so in history that there were 124000 Prophets so so you find all the names in Quran?

No. What is your explanation to that? I can tell you what I think! May be the God did not think that they conveyed his message or the deterred from his message. Have you or your friends here thought of that, there is no proof that was or was not the case.

Then why every time you say that because it isnt in Quran I will not believe....

Because Quran is the only document that unites every Muslim together even though not the same interpretations.

As per Islam Prophets were sent to every where but you think that none were sent to India as there is no mention of any one from India in Quran.

Again may be even though Prophets they did not succeed in conveying God's message to everyone or deterred from the message.

Also If you believe Imam as manifestation of Divine Light? Was there not any one before Hazrat Ali?

Yeah sure there have been, you would have to read a paper that was written by Nagib that traces back. But I have to tell you is that in My (ancestral Judaeo-Persian) beliefs that in Nagib's document he has pir and Imams reversed. That is just from where we look at it.
Here is something to read about Judaeo-Persian: http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/features ... uages.html

[unnalhaq]

Some more things:
I have noticed several times your thinking on Ginans as you treat like some thing from hindu scriptures is quoted.

No. Just a conversion tool used by pir to convert the Hindus.

Although it is not the case.As per Farmans teachings of Quran is in Ginans. There is no where in Ginan mention to worship idols, believe your husband as God etc.

Now this is classic for some one to claim to be Muslim and tell another to reed Gieta and not know himself what Quran says.
I think what you are talking about is "Majazi Khuda" (not as what you are saying husband as god), it is that the husband as the lord of the house or head of the household. Everyone knows that Ginans are filled with Hindu references to their gods.

[unnalhaq]

Whilst you're at it..why don't you ask Mukhisaheb if he has a copy of the Qur'an or the Bible or the Torah behind him on the table.

You will find that none of those are inside the Jamat Khana Hall as well..(maybe in the Jamat Khana library..but the Gita might be there too..along with books that question ismaili history)
however..behind the mukhi's path or table you will find there maybe a book of Farmans by MHI (rightfully so) and maybe a book of Ginans...

It is sad to say this that there is no Quran there. I think as someone mentioned that the Ginan of 10 signs of the end of times; where the 10th sign is that the Gabriel will take the Quran away! May be that has happened.

If ginans weren't important would we recite them in Hazar Imam's presence?
Donot limit the boundaries of ismailism to a geographical area..religion is fluid..it is moving..it is evolving..constantly..i believe there is a farman of MHI..i hope i can find it somewhere...

you were in Dar es salaam...think of the ginan that was sung..was it Hinduistic at all?

The majority audience was Khoja thus the Ginan. If you ask The Imam about that I am sure He'll tell you that it is the Foundation of -the Jamet (the Khoja Jamet) and the Jamet is still young. I think The Imam had somewhere had replied that but don't know when or where and it was not in a from of Farman.

...i fear my translation maybe too hinduisitic for him...and please use the correct vernacular for Sami...

Shams.

May be, just may be it is:o

[unnalhaq]

..now you can stick your head in the sand and still insist that the gita talks about physical idols..

Call me camel if you like at least I am not an ostrich. I think The Imam had said something to the fact of people like ostriches... during his visit to the States in 1986 (donor’s dinner)

[ShamsB]

Whilst you're at it..why don't you ask Mukhisaheb if he has a copy of the Qur'an or the Bible or the Torah behind him on the table.

You will find that none of those are inside the Jamat Khana Hall as well..(maybe in the Jamat Khana library..but the Gita might be there too..along with books that question ismaili history)
however..behind the mukhi's path or table you will find there maybe a book of Farmans by MHI (rightfully so) and maybe a book of Ginans...

It is sad to say this that there is no Quran there. I think as someone mentioned that the Ginan of 10 signs of the end of times; where the 10th sign is that the Gabriel will take the Quran away! May be that has happened.

You can't have it both ways my friend....
you can't use a ginan to bolster your arguement..because in doing so..you are saying that the ginans weren't just used for conversion..

btw..have you realized that the Qu'ran has no importance for us..thus the qur'an isn't kept in Jamat Khana...If you notice i mentioned..there is a book of Farmans by MHI behind mukhi's path..which hold much greater importance to us Ismailies.....
Read the Preamble to our constitituion where the Imam states he is the SOLE Authority on our faith..trust me.if he thought ginans were out of place..he'd have them removed like his pictures from Jamat Khana...

If ginans weren't important would we recite them in Hazar Imam's presence?
Donot limit the boundaries of ismailism to a geographical area..religion is fluid..it is moving..it is evolving..constantly..i believe there is a farman of MHI..i hope i can find it somewhere...

you were in Dar es salaam...think of the ginan that was sung..was it Hinduistic at all?

The majority audience was Khoja thus the Ginan. If you ask The Imam about that I am sure He'll tell you that it is the Foundation of -the Jamet (the Khoja Jamet) and the Jamet is still young. I think The Imam had somewhere had replied that but don't know when or where and it was not in a from of Farman.

Yes..but along with the Ginan..a verse of the Qu'ran..
Unnal Haq..you forget we are ismailies..we have given Tan, Man and Dhan to the Imam..if he says die..we die...you think if he said stop singing Ginans..become Mullahs..any one of us would question him?

in some instances your arguement is futile because you are ignoring the authority of the Imam in religious matters...

...i fear my translation maybe too hinduisitic for him...and please use the correct vernacular for Sami...

Shams.

May be, just may be it is:o

Shams

[unnalhaq]

I'll check the JK library or should I ask the Mukhi may be it's kept with him behind (in) the table

You (and you people like) are so ignorant that you can't even tell if someone is slapping you silly.

It is sad to say this that there is no Quran there. I think as someone mentioned that the Ginan of 10 signs of the end of times; where the 10th sign is that the Gabriel will take the Quran away! May be that has happened.

You can't have it both ways my friend....
you can't use a ginan to bolster your arguement..because in doing so..you are saying that the ginans weren't just used for conversion..

I know the taste of you own medicin can be bitter.

if he thought ginans were out of place..he'd have them removed like his pictures from Jamat Khana...

Just give it time. I know how hard it was for people to accept the removal of photos and I had argued that three years prior to that with the Tariqa Board chairperson and I was called names and such

...you think if he said stop singing Ginans..become Mullahs..any one of us would question him?

I think as I have told you before people don't follow when the Farmans are made and many times the Farmans are altered, omitted or even suppressed from the circulations. I think I gave you an example of a Farman that was given on/around Jan 1 (early 90s) in Australia about not to go to western world illegally and also in Uganda upon the reopening of Jk that was once lost, that not to bend rules or laws. Do you think people have been following? And I have been asking them to read those Farmans and I was told that those were illegal Farman! (may be illegal Jamet but not the Farman, I’d have to say)
And just this past Friday Night a faxed copy of the exact same Farman was sent by the Council for the US Australia and New Zeland to all JKs in US to be read was made on November 18, 1992 Hyderabad India about illegal immigration. I think that Farmans should have been read right when it was given. Now why do you think this was sent (by the council)? Just bad timing I would have to say. You see many of the people who do not have proper papers have already left on the journey to Canada Friday after work for the Deedar.
Now think why did Imam sent that Farman? It was to just protect the Jamet from the after effect (hardships) of 911.