Wazu

[Akbar(Khan)]

These days MHI is directly involved with the planning of JamatKhanas.

Do you have any facilities for wuzu in our Jamatkhanas? If not, doesn't this convey a message to us?

WELL SAID KMAHERALI, you sure hit the nail on the head.

Hope this will put an end to wuzu agrument, for what more can you say?
But I guess the ratters will ratter.

[razinizar]

i think you Forgot to read my post.

[kmaherali]

There is a Seprate Wazo room in many jamat khana's. i don't know which Jamat khana you are talking about which doesn't have wazu room.
but if just incase any jamat khana doesn't have wazu room then wazu can also by done in washroom which generally have sinks.

I am talking about the high profile JamatKhanas in which MHI has been personally involved in every stage of their development. I have yet to come across a Jamatkhana that has a wuzu room!

It will be a nightmare in the washrooms if people started to do their wuzu in ill equipped washrooms. Are you suggesting that old and disabled people should raise their feet to reach the sinks!

[razinizar]

Can you specify any Jamat Khana name which doesn't have wazu room + which has direct involvement of MHI in every stages. with respect to any reference or news?
You mean to say MHI was personally there while designing and implemetation of Jamat Khana ? or MHI allocated to this task to any of his Murid?

[kmaherali]

Can you specify any Jamat Khana name which doesn't have wazu room + which has direct involvement of MHI in every stages. with respect to any reference or news?
You mean to say MHI was personally there while designing and implemetation of Jamat Khana ? or MHI allocated to this task to any of his Murid?

As I said I have yet to come across a JK which has a wuzu facility! Can you specify a JK which does?

MHI has appointed an institution called IMAARA which is responsible for the planning and building of JKs. They report to him and submit all the plans to him for approval. You may want to contact them for details.

I do not think that MHI's all private and informal visits to the contruction sites would involve journalists, else nothing will get done!

I have seen photographs of MHI and Prince Amyn visiting the construction site of the Burnaby JK (Darkhana of Canada). The following is an excerpt from MHI's interview with Roy Bonisteel of CBC's 'Man Alive' programme which alludes to his involvement in the planning of the JK.

"Canadian Bruno Freske was selected to build the Vancouver centre.
Q: Why him, why not an Islamic architect?
A: Where we build in the industrialized world I've tried to use architects who were of that world who knew what the planning concerns might be; the productive concerns of contractors and who had the sensitivity to be able to design in our culture and our idiom and Bruno Freske I made the point at the time is that he is a rather remarkable man.

Q: He said that you were such a great inspiration - that I am wondering what did you instruct him or how did you inspire him in that way. You must have had long discussions about your ideas?
A: Yes, I think I have always tried to share with people who work on architectural projects for the community and me, some explanation of what we are trying to get out of the building. It is not just the bricks and mortar."

[logical]

Dear Mr. Logical
As You were cofused about 3 time Prayers vs 5 time Prayers. then i would like to tell you, In Quran, God didn't Specified the word 5 time or 3 time prayer . in terms of salat the Quranic Ayat is Given below

as far as Wazu is concerned in Quran, Allah Specified about Wazu. and here is the Ayat

" [5:6] O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks."
.
.
.

I think Zahiri and Batini Both wazu are neccesary. bcoz it is Specified in Quran.

Question:
What else would you like us to do that is in the quran?
How about:
-"Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES"

etc, etc.... all referred to in the Quran and if you refer to its explanation in the sunnah as followed by the majoritarian then, pretty soon you will find yourself outside the fold of Humanity.

If you feel the need to do zaheri wadhu as per the sunnah or as per quran 5:6 that you posted above then, feel free to do it.

Batini wadhu, like batini fast, batini prayers means observing its ESSENCE at all times not just at stipulated times & days.

For wadhu that means keeping body & mind clean at all times. Batini fast (roza)means abstaining from impure acts & thoughts throught the day, year & life time and not just between sun-up & sun-down of a month. Batini Prayers means Remembering the Lord at all possible time.

Above all - remember Ismaili tariqa is a spiritual path - a batini path where one does not have to pull hairs to fiqure out what is right & what is wrong. Let me guess - You want a firman for this as well?

[Akbar(Khan)]

WELL SAID! I 100% AGREE WITH YOU LOGICAL.

Dear Mr. Logical
As You were cofused about 3 time Prayers vs 5 time Prayers. then i would like to tell you, In Quran, God didn't Specified the word 5 time or 3 time prayer . in terms of salat the Quranic Ayat is Given below

as far as Wazu is concerned in Quran, Allah Specified about Wazu. and here is the Ayat

" [5:6] O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks."
.
.
.

I think Zahiri and Batini Both wazu are neccesary. bcoz it is Specified in Quran.

Question:
What else would you like us to do that is in the quran?
How about:
-"Eye for eye, life for life, ear for ear, honour for honour.."
-"Do not take jews, christians for friends.."
-"Cast terror into those who disbelieve. Smite them above their necks, and smite off all finger-tips."
-" Women are like tilth, so till her as you see fit".
-" Cut off hands of thieves-male or female.."
-"Kill the homos; Kill the blasphemers; kill the apostates;
- "Demand the jews & christians pay poll-tax(jizya) with humility."
-"plunder the non-believers and take their females as SLAVES"

etc, etc.... all referred to in the Quran and if you refer to its explanation in the sunnah as followed by the majoritarian then, pretty soon you will find yourself outside the fold of Humanity.

If you feel the need to do zaheri wadhu as per the sunnah or as per quran 5:6 that you posted above then, feel free to do it.

Batini wadhu, like batini fast, batini prayers means observing its ESSENCE at all times not just at stipulated times & days.

For wadhu that means keeping body & mind clean at all times. Batini fast (roza)means abstaining from impure acts & thoughts throught the day, year & life time and not just between sun-up & sun-down of a month. Batini Prayers means Remembering the Lord at all possible time.

Above all - remember Ismaili tariqa is a spiritual path - a batini path where one does not have to pull hairs to fiqure out what is right & what is wrong. Let me guess - You want a firman for this as well?

[Akbar(Khan)]

[quote="kmaherali"]These days MHI is directly involved with the planning of JamatKhanas.

I was reading the speech of MHI and I think the following backs Kmaherali's statement above:

First was the ability, the right, to practise freely throughout Canada our Tariqah of Islam. This meant, first of all, that there should be Jamatkhanas, proper Jamatkhanas that said the appropriate thing about our Jamat in Canada, in as many concentrations of the Jamat in Canada as possible. This has been a slow process, slower perhaps than you or I would have wished. But it was a process that needed to be slow if it was going to be sound. We could have moved too quickly, we could have made mistakes and those mistakes would have been carried forward by improper buildings in the wrong place, over-expensive, the improper, wrong programs for the buildings, etcetera, and I didn't want that to happen.

[razinizar]

Dear Mr. Logical and Mr. Akber
When anyone read Quran, there are many wayz to think about, Some ayat are very much direct, some ayat have batini meanings and some ayats have other meanings. Its a level of understanding how much you can understand and how deep you can go. you can not deny the word of Allah. You can not say that You can not follow the quran ? as it is our Base and the base of Islam. The Farmans will alwayz be in the boundary of Quran.

Quran and the Prophet and the Imam are both attach with each others. there will be no contradictions. Whatever Imam will Guide, it will be in the Boundary of Quran, If you say Imam is Bolta Quran then you should also know the word of Imam will not be different with respect to Quran. If imam changes any thing. It will be with respect to Quran. All of you Have assumed that Wazu is not Neccassary by given there own interpretation, no direct farmans.

How can you Ignore the Quranic Direct Ayat ? when there is no farman available that whether we should or we should not, If there is no direct Farman then we should.

How can you follow half the quran, The ayat what you like you follow it and the ayats you don't like you will skip it, without going into the dept of it.

You are thinking from a different angle, I know its hard for you people to understand what i have understood for some reason.

As a ismaili, we should never forget our base.

[Bashir786]

As a ismaili, we should never forget our base.

Do you mind telling us what is our "base"?

[razinizar]

If you concentrate what i have said in my earlier post then u didn't need to ask this.
As a Muslim our base/knowledge is Quran and As an Ismaili our Leader is our Imam.
Quran and Imam's Guidance is always attached with each other. Whatever Imam will Guide will be in the boundary of Quran. In other Words; Imam is the Door(Explainator) of the Quran(The Knowledge). We Should Read and understand quran, whatever quran says, we first need to understand and then follow. Imam's guidance(Farmans) makes our understanding broader, we can understand quran in more broader sense with the guidance of Imam.

Kindly Don't interprete religion by your own common sense.

I said it before and i m saying it again. I know it is hard for you people to understand this, but for a minute try to think from my angle, inshallah if God permits you will understand.

O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative. - Qur'an, Al-Al-Mã´edah, Surah 5:6

[ShamsB]

If you concentrate what i have said in my earlier post then u didn't need to ask this.
As a Muslim our base/knowledge is Quran and As an Ismaili our Leader is our Imam.
Quran and Imam's Guidance is always attached with each other. Whatever Imam will Guide will be in the boundary of Quran. In other Words; Imam is the Door(Explainator) of the Quran(The Knowledge). We Should Read and understand quran, whatever quran says, we first need to understand and then follow. Imam's guidance(Farmans) makes our understanding broader, we can understand quran in more broader sense with the guidance of Imam.

Kindly Don't interprete religion by your own common sense.

I said it before and i m saying it again. I know it is hard for you people to understand this, but for a minute try to think from my angle, inshallah if God permits you will understand.

O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative. - Qur'an, Al-Al-Mã´edah, Surah 5:6

Actually..the religion precedes the Qu'ran. If you read the farmans of the Imam, he states that our religion is thousands of years old.
The IMAM precedes the Quran..The Imam has always been present on the earth because without an Imam the world would perish.
Another Correction..as an Ismaili..you gave baiyat to follow the Imam of the time..not the Quran. You are bound to the Farmans of the Imam of the time.


Shams

[razinizar]

Another Correction..as an Ismaili..you gave baiyat to follow the Imam of the time..not the Quran. You are bound to the Farmans of the Imam of the time.

like i said, Quran=The Knowledge and Imam=Leader. they are both attached like a chain. you can not sperate each other. your are bound to follow both of them if only you knew. but the topic is more concerned with the wazu. i will not go into it.

[ShamsB]

Another Correction..as an Ismaili..you gave baiyat to follow the Imam of the time..not the Quran. You are bound to the Farmans of the Imam of the time.

like i said, Quran=The Knowledge and Imam=Leader. they are both attached like a chain. you can not sperate each other. your are bound to follow both of them if only you knew. but the topic is more concerned with the wazu. i will not go into it.

Sorry..I don't buy that argument. Imam was present prior to the Quran being revealed.

Shams

[Arshad_Z]

I am not sure if what I am saying is right, as I am much less knowledgeable than other people who have said things in this thread, and I am not also trying to take sides, as I do not know what is right when talking about wazzu/wudu. However, when reading the last few posts, I remembered the words of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), at Ghadeer-e-Khumm, where he says (I am paraphrasing)

I am leaving behind you two weighty things: The Quran, and my posterity. These two things are tied TOGETHER with a rope until the day of judgement...

My interpretation of this hadith is that the Prophet(pbuh) was trying to say that Imam interprets the Quran, and in his farmans, he is interpreting the Quran, the last message of God to Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) to his murids. I do not believe that our Imam when guiding us is steering us towards anything else except the ethics of Islam, which comes from the Holy Quran-e-Shariff. I don't think our Imam interprets and guides us according to anything else except the Quran, but that is not a fact, just my opinion. I may be wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I also wanted to add something, which was mentioned before in this thread, but is not directly related to the topic of this thread. When referring to the Arabic language, my father asked a person whose mother tongue was Arabic. When my father asked the meaning of the word "saum"(as we interpret it as fasting - other sects refer it to fasting of food), his reply was that saum actually means 'to keep away from'. Now to keep away from what? I don't believe it is just to keep away from food, but in the general perspective, to keep away from evil. I believe that fasting for food keeps one more humble in the sense that he or she realizes the importance and gifts of our rabb, and in turn, helps us to keep away from evil. This is what I have noticed when I have observed the physical fast.

Sorry to go off topic, and any responses to this would be greatly appreciated!

Yaa Ali Madad!

[kmaherali]

I don't think our Imam interprets and guides us according to anything else except the Quran, but that is not a fact, just my opinion. I may be wrong. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think we have to make a distinction between the zaheri and the batini aspects of our faith. The former relates to how we articulate our faith to others and the latter relates to how we understand our faith within our tradition.

From the zaheri point of view, the following statements taken from our constitution provide the doctrinal framework or the interface.

A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.


(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

From the above statements, it is quite clear that from the zaheri perspective we accept the Holy Quran as the final message of Allah to mankind and that the Imam is the interpretor or the provider of the Ta'wil for its sustenance.

However from the batini point of view, revelations are ongoing. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in a message stated "In every time, Imam has something new to reveal"(Precious Pearls, No. 6). Hence whereas from the zaheri perspective the Imam is the interpretor of the Quran, from the batini point of view, he is the source of the Quran or as per Hazarat Ali, "I am speaking Quran".

I also wanted to add something, which was mentioned before in this thread, but is not directly related to the topic of this thread. When referring to the Arabic language, my father asked a person whose mother tongue was Arabic. When my father asked the meaning of the word "saum"(as we interpret it as fasting - other sects refer it to fasting of food), his reply was that saum actually means 'to keep away from'. Now to keep away from what? I don't believe it is just to keep away from food, but in the general perspective, to keep away from evil. I believe that fasting for food keeps one more humble in the sense that he or she realizes the importance and gifts of our rabb, and in turn, helps us to keep away from evil. This is what I have noticed when I have observed the physical fast.

Sorry to go off topic, and any responses to this would be greatly appreciated!

Yaa Ali Madad!

Consistent with our tradition being an esoteric one, the pillars of religious law are subject to reinterpretation and have been so in diverse ways within our history and tradition. For eaxample Tusi, interpretes them as:


1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.

[Arshad_Z]

But when Mowla Ali said "I am the speaking Quran" doesn't that mean that even though he is the source of the Quran, that he interprets it, since the Quran, is not just the qitab we have, but rather revelation of God as a whole which?

[kmaherali]

But when Mowla Ali said "I am the speaking Quran" doesn't that mean that even though he is the source of the Quran, that he interprets it, since the Quran, is not just the qitab we have, but rather revelation of God as a whole which?

It depends on the context, when we articulate our faith to others especially to the Sunnis, we would say that the Imam is the interpretor, but from our perspective of course he is the source. The source can also be the interpretor but not vice versa.

Within esoteric (Sufi) Islam, it is accepted that revelations are not limited to the written Koran and that elevated souls recieve them on an ongoing basis. The following is an anecdote from the life of a great Sufi master Abu Said Ibn Khair which alludes to this tendency.

[Abu Sa'id, however, found the source of his doctrine in a larger revelation than the Word which was given to the Prophet. The author of the Asrar says:

My grandfather, Shaykhu '1-Islam Abu Sa'id, relates that one day, whilst Abu Sa'id was preaching in Nishapur, a learned theologian who was present thought to himself that such doctrine is not to be found in the seven sevenths (i.e. the whole) of the Koran. Abu Sa'fd immediately turned towards him and said," Doctor, thy thought is not hidden from me. The doctrine that I preach is contained in the eighth seventh of the Koran." "What is that?" the theologian inquired. Abu Sa'id answered: " The seven sevenths are, 0 Apostle, deliver the message that hath been sent down to thee (Kor. 5, 71), and the eighth seventh is, He revealed unto His servant that which He revealed (Kor. 53, 10). Ye imagine that the Word of God is of fixed quantity and extent. Nay, the infinite Word of God that was sent down to Mohammed is the whole seven sevenths of the Koran; but that which He causes to come into the hearts of His servants does not admit of being numbered and limited, nor does it ever cease. Every moment there comes a messenger from Him to the hearts of His servants, as the Prophet declared, saying, 'Beware of the clairvoyance (firdsa) of the true believer, for verily he sees by the light of God.'"

Then Abu Sa'id quoted the verse:

Thou art my soul's joy, known by vision, not by hearsay.
Of what use is hearsay to one who hath vision?

In a Tradition (he went on) it is stated that the Guarded Tablet (lawh-i mahfuz)1 is so broad that a fleet Arab horse would not be able to cross it in four years, and the writing thereon is finer than a hair. Of all the writing which covers it only a single line has been communicated to God's creatures. That little keeps them in perplexity until the Resurrection. As for the rest, no one knows anything about it1.

Here Abu Sa'id sets aside the partial, finite, and temporal revelation on which Islam is built, and appeals to the universal, infinite, and everlasting revelation which the Sufis find in their hearts. As a rule, even the boldest Mohammedan mystics shrink from uttering such a challenge. So long as the inner light is regarded only as an interpreter of the written
revelation, the supremacy of the latter is nominally maintained, though in fact almost any doctrine can be foisted upon it: this is a very different thing from claiming that the inner light transcends the Prophetic Law and possesses full authority to make laws for itself. Abu Sa'id does not say that the partial and universal revelations are in conflict with each other: he does not repudiate the Koran, but he denies that it is the final and absolute standard of divine truth. He often quotes Koranic verses in support of his theosophical views. Only when the Book fails him need he confound his critics by alleging a secret communication which he has received from the Author.]

(Source: Studies in Islamic Mysticism byReynold A. Nicholson, CHAPTER I ABU SA'ID IBN ABI 'L-KHAYR)