GOD AND HUMAN
just answer a single question that do you think God as creator or a part of creation?
YOUR CONCEPT THAT GOD IS HUMAN IS WRONG AND NOT ONLY ISMAILIS BUT PEOPLE OF ALL RELIGIONS WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.
GOD IS NOOR. HE HAS NOT A BODY AND THIS IS WHAT ALL MUSLIMS BELIEVE . IT IS VERSE FROM GINAN MOMIM CHETAWNI OF PIR SADAR DIN.
to muneevar bhaaee aa paratham saamee jee paedaa keeaa,
e bhaaee jaare hataa te dha(n)dhukaar;
taare beejo te hato kaa(n)hee nahee(n),
ane ek hataa te niraakaar re......................................1
Brother believer, when the Lord first brought creation into being, there was darkness, o brother. Then there was nothing else, there was just the one formless being.
YOU SAID THAT IT IS IN QURAN THAT GOD HAS FACE HAND ETC.
IT HAS BATINI MEANINGS. ISMAILISM IS BATINI MAZHAB.
THE BATINI MEANINGS ARE GIVEN IN GINAN.
to muneevar bhaaee taare saamee jee-e potaa naa nur maa(n)he thee upaaveaa,
ane saamee jee-e beejee te sirajee murat chaar;
aa tiyaa(n) ek pi(n)dd ek potaa tannu(n),
ane e paa(n)che-ee tan nu(n) ek te avataar re.....................8
Brother believer, then the Lord created from His light, and brought four other forms into being. There was one shape which was His own, and all those five forms were a single manifestation.
to muneevar bhaaee e chaar murat saamee jee-e sirajeaa,
tenaa juaa juaa naam dhareaa sirajann-haar;
aa te tame saa(n)bhalo muneevaro,
aa tenu(n) kahu(n) veechaar re....................................9
Brother believer, the Lord created those four forms, and the Creator gave them each separate names. Attend, o believers, and I shall give you an account of them.
to muneevar bhaaee aapannaa maathaa mubaarak nu(n) mahammad mustapha kareaa,
ane mawlaa alee te pote alee avataar;
aa seenaa mubaarak nee te hazarat bibi phaatamaa,
ane nur-chasham be tenaa hazarat emaam hasan va husen deel tthaar re...............................................................10
Brother believer, He made Muhammad Mustafa from His holy forehead, and the Lord Ali was Himself manifested as Ali. He created the blessed Lady Fatima from His holy breast, and the light of His two eyes were the blessed Imaams Hasan and Husain, who bring comfort to the heart.
PLEASE REMEMBER THAT GOD HAS NOT ANY PHYSICAL BODY.
IF YOU TILL NOW BELIVE THAT HE HAS PHYSICAL FORM THAN SHOW ME HIS PHOTO.NOT OF HAZIR IMAM BUT NOOR OF IMAM.YOU CAN NOT .HE HAS NO BODY.
YOUR COMMENT THAT GOD IS MALE IS ALSO WRONG AND AGAIN NOT ONLY ISMAILIS BUT ALL MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS BELIEVES THAT GOD IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE.THIS IS A THING WHICH EVEN A STUDENT OF 1 CLASS KNOW.
HAZIR IMAM IS OUR SPIRITUAL FATHER AS WELL AS SPIRITUAL MOTHER.
TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS SENTENCE.
IF YOU SAY THAT IMAM;S PHYSICAL BODY IS GOD THAN LET ME TELL WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND BY THE TERM INCARNATION.DO YOU KNOW ITS MEANING?
Differneces between ISMAILI and NUSAIRI
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star_munir
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YOU SAID THAT
P.S.: I thought you would have argue about Prophet Muhammad being Allah and would mention it is Hazrat Ali who is Allah.
NO ,ACTUALLY THE NOOR OF HAZRAT ALI AND HAZRAT MOHAMMAD IS SAME
ALI MOHAMMAD YEK KHUDA
HAQ SHANASI DAFEE BALA
IMAM ALSO SAYS THAT HE IS NOOR OF ALI AND MOHAMMAD.
ONE THINK I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE CLEAR IS THAT I DO NOT SAY THT IMAM IS NOT ALLAH
INFACT ONCE SOME ONE ASK THE QUESTION THAT IS IMAM ALLAH IN THIS FORUM I SAID YES BUT WE CAN NOT SAY PHYSICAL BODY AS GOD.YES WE LOVE PHYSICAL BODY OF IMAM BECAUSE INSIDE THE BODY IS NOOR OF ALLAH.
FOR EXAMPLE ONCE IN MADAGASKAR IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH SAID IN HIS FARMAN THAT HE IS THE CREATOR.
NOW IF YOU BELIEVE BODY THAN THIS IS SURELY IMPOSSIBLE AS WORLD WAS NOT CREATED AFTER THE BIRTH OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH .IT WAS BEFORE ALSO BUT THE NOOR THE GOD WHICH IS IN BODY OF IMAM ALWAYS REMAINS THE SAME.
SO GOD HAS TAKEN DIFFERENT FORMS OR INCARNATIONS THATS WHY IMAM SAID HE IS CREATOR.
P.S.: I thought you would have argue about Prophet Muhammad being Allah and would mention it is Hazrat Ali who is Allah.
NO ,ACTUALLY THE NOOR OF HAZRAT ALI AND HAZRAT MOHAMMAD IS SAME
ALI MOHAMMAD YEK KHUDA
HAQ SHANASI DAFEE BALA
IMAM ALSO SAYS THAT HE IS NOOR OF ALI AND MOHAMMAD.
ONE THINK I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE CLEAR IS THAT I DO NOT SAY THT IMAM IS NOT ALLAH
INFACT ONCE SOME ONE ASK THE QUESTION THAT IS IMAM ALLAH IN THIS FORUM I SAID YES BUT WE CAN NOT SAY PHYSICAL BODY AS GOD.YES WE LOVE PHYSICAL BODY OF IMAM BECAUSE INSIDE THE BODY IS NOOR OF ALLAH.
FOR EXAMPLE ONCE IN MADAGASKAR IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH SAID IN HIS FARMAN THAT HE IS THE CREATOR.
NOW IF YOU BELIEVE BODY THAN THIS IS SURELY IMPOSSIBLE AS WORLD WAS NOT CREATED AFTER THE BIRTH OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH .IT WAS BEFORE ALSO BUT THE NOOR THE GOD WHICH IS IN BODY OF IMAM ALWAYS REMAINS THE SAME.
SO GOD HAS TAKEN DIFFERENT FORMS OR INCARNATIONS THATS WHY IMAM SAID HE IS CREATOR.
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aniskamdar
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Contents deleted by myself - I did not appreciate Admin's [Forum Department] personal comments of September 13 - 2003 [Canada Time] - and I do not agree with Admin's personal comments.
Last edited by aniskamdar on Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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star_munir
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OF HIM THERE ARE NEITHER PARENTS NOR LORD [SVETA SVATARA UPANISHAD]
THERE IS NO LKENESS OF HIM [SVETA SAVATARA UPANNISHAD]
HIS FORM IS NOT TO BE SEEN.NO ONE SEES HIM WITH THE EYE.[SVETA SVATARA UPANISHAD]
THERE IS NO IMAGE OF HIM.[YAJUR VEDA]
HE IS BODYLESS AND PURE.[YAJUR VEDA]
SO NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NO IMAGE OF GOD.
IMAM IS GOD BUT HE HAS COME IN A HUMAN FORM IN HUMAN BODY.
THE BODY CHANGES BUT NOOR NOT.
ONE THING ANOTHER GOD HAS NO GENDER AS HE IS NOT HUMAN BEING.
ISMAILIS BELIVE HAZIR IMAM AS THEIR SPIRITUAL FATHER AND MOTHER.
NOOR NOT MEANS SPACE.
I DO NOT SAY THAT SPACE IS GOD.
I SAY NOOR IS GOD AND IT IS IN QURAN
THE NOOR IS IN HUMAN BODY OF IMAM.
SO STOP LYING AND SAYING FALSE THINGS ABOUT ME.
KRISHNA ALSO SAYS THAT HE IS FATHER AND MOTHER.IF YOU THINK BODY OF IMAM AS GOD THAN MALE CAN NOT BE MOTHER BUT NOOR IS NOT MALE NOR FEMALE.
Lord Krishna declares in the Bhagawad Gita:
"I am the Father- of this Universe. I am the Mother of this universe, and the Creator- of all. I am the Highest to be known, the Purifier, the holy OM, and the three Vedas." (BG 9.17)
DO YOU ALSO BELIEVE LIKE HINDUS THAT BRAMHA HAS 4 OR 5 HEADS ETC
ISMAILIS DO NOT BELIEVE IN SUCH CONCEPTS.
THERE IS NO LKENESS OF HIM [SVETA SAVATARA UPANNISHAD]
HIS FORM IS NOT TO BE SEEN.NO ONE SEES HIM WITH THE EYE.[SVETA SVATARA UPANISHAD]
THERE IS NO IMAGE OF HIM.[YAJUR VEDA]
HE IS BODYLESS AND PURE.[YAJUR VEDA]
SO NOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NO IMAGE OF GOD.
IMAM IS GOD BUT HE HAS COME IN A HUMAN FORM IN HUMAN BODY.
THE BODY CHANGES BUT NOOR NOT.
ONE THING ANOTHER GOD HAS NO GENDER AS HE IS NOT HUMAN BEING.
ISMAILIS BELIVE HAZIR IMAM AS THEIR SPIRITUAL FATHER AND MOTHER.
NOOR NOT MEANS SPACE.
I DO NOT SAY THAT SPACE IS GOD.
I SAY NOOR IS GOD AND IT IS IN QURAN
THE NOOR IS IN HUMAN BODY OF IMAM.
SO STOP LYING AND SAYING FALSE THINGS ABOUT ME.
KRISHNA ALSO SAYS THAT HE IS FATHER AND MOTHER.IF YOU THINK BODY OF IMAM AS GOD THAN MALE CAN NOT BE MOTHER BUT NOOR IS NOT MALE NOR FEMALE.
Lord Krishna declares in the Bhagawad Gita:
"I am the Father- of this Universe. I am the Mother of this universe, and the Creator- of all. I am the Highest to be known, the Purifier, the holy OM, and the three Vedas." (BG 9.17)
DO YOU ALSO BELIEVE LIKE HINDUS THAT BRAMHA HAS 4 OR 5 HEADS ETC
ISMAILIS DO NOT BELIEVE IN SUCH CONCEPTS.
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aniskamdar
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A)
Contents deleted by myself - I did not appreciate Admin's [Forum Department] personal comments of September 13 - 2003 [Canada Time] - and I do not agree with Admin's personal comments.
The discussions had already ended from my side - since it was clear the person worshipped spirits/jinns and/or space which the Lord created and hence the comments "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally out of focus.
The only thing I agree is that the discussions were useless since the person kept on writing things out of focus at his own whims and fancies including finally rejecting the things admitted earlier.
Your mentioning "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally improper also because from the general discussions the person finally admitted that he only worships things which he do not see and God has created everything including the space. From the B.G. and Quran were also discussed and quoted and it is clear there are also spirits/jinns:
BG 9.17:
I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas.
BG 9:34
Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.
BG 12:2
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.
BG - 15:19
Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata.
BG - 15 : 20
This is the most confidential part of the Vedic scriptures, O sinless one, and it is disclosed now by Me. Whoever understands this will become wise, and his endeavors will know perfection.
BG 9:25
Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings;and those who worship Me will live with Me.
Saba-34
40) One Day He will gather them all together and ask the angels: "Was it you that these people used to worship?"
41) They will respond: "Glory be to You! Our tie is with You - as a protector - not with them; but they used to worship the jinns and it was them in whom most of these people believed."
It is thus clear that the person has since all along worshipping spirits/jinns and space.
Yunus-10
94) If you are in doubt regarding what We have revealed to you, ask those who have been reading the Book before you. In fact, the truth has indeed come to you from your Rabb: therefore, do not be of those who doubt,
95) and do not join those who deny the revelations of Allah; otherwise you will become one of the losers.
So your mentioning "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally improper.
The discussions had already ended from my side - since it was clear the person worshipped spirits/jinns and/or space which the Lord created and hence the comments "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally out of focus.
The only thing I agree is that the discussions were useless since the person kept on writing things out of focus at his own whims and fancies including finally rejecting the things admitted earlier.
Your mentioning "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally improper also because from the general discussions the person finally admitted that he only worships things which he do not see and God has created everything including the space. From the B.G. and Quran were also discussed and quoted and it is clear there are also spirits/jinns:
BG 9.17:
I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire. I am the object of knowledge, the purifier and the syllable om. I am also the Rg, the Sama and the Yajur Vedas.
BG 9:34
Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me and worship Me. Being completely absorbed in Me, surely you will come to Me.
BG 12:2
The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Those who fix their minds on My personal form and are always engaged in worshiping Me with great and transcendental faith are considered by Me to be most perfect.
BG - 15:19
Whoever knows Me as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, without doubting, is the knower of everything. He therefore engages himself in full devotional service to Me, O son of Bharata.
BG - 15 : 20
This is the most confidential part of the Vedic scriptures, O sinless one, and it is disclosed now by Me. Whoever understands this will become wise, and his endeavors will know perfection.
BG 9:25
Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods; those who worship the ancestors go to the ancestors; those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings;and those who worship Me will live with Me.
Saba-34
40) One Day He will gather them all together and ask the angels: "Was it you that these people used to worship?"
41) They will respond: "Glory be to You! Our tie is with You - as a protector - not with them; but they used to worship the jinns and it was them in whom most of these people believed."
It is thus clear that the person has since all along worshipping spirits/jinns and space.
Yunus-10
94) If you are in doubt regarding what We have revealed to you, ask those who have been reading the Book before you. In fact, the truth has indeed come to you from your Rabb: therefore, do not be of those who doubt,
95) and do not join those who deny the revelations of Allah; otherwise you will become one of the losers.
So your mentioning "both of you are believing in the same things" is totally improper.
Last edited by aniskamdar on Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:21 am, edited 38 times in total.
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star_munir
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KRISHNA WAS INCARNATION OF GOD. DONT YOU KNOW THAT BEFORE THE WAR OF MAHABHARAT KRISHNA TOLD ARJUN THAT HE IS GOD MANIFEST AND HE WILL GIVE HIM HIS NOORANI DEEDAR THAT IS GOD WHICH IS INSIDE THE HUMAN BODY OF KRISHNA.HE SAID YOU CAN NOT SEE GOD WITH YOUR PHYSICAL EYES SO I AM GIVING YOU SHAKTI AND SPIRITUAL POWER TO SEE THE GOD INSIDE ME THAN ARJUN SAW GOD INSIDE THE BODY OF KRISHNA.
REMEMBER INSIDE THE BODY OF KRISHNA.IF BODY AS WELL INSIDE THE BODY WAS GOD THAN HE CAN NOT SEE KRISHNA WITH PHYSICAL EYES BUT HE SAW PHYSICAL HUMAN BODY BUT TO SEE GOD INSIDE THE HUMAN BODY HE NEEDED POWER, SPIRITUAL POWER.
ISMAILIS DO NOT WORSHIP BODY OF IMAM LIKE HINDUS. I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES THAT ISMAILISM IS ISMAILISM IT IS FOOLISH TO SAY THAT IT IS LIKE THIS RELIGION OR THAT.
ISMAILIS DO NOT WORSHIP PHOTOGRAPH OR IDOL OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH WHY? BECAUSE NOW THE NOOR OF GOD IS IN BODY OF KARIM HAZIR IMAM.HINDUS MADE IDOLS OF PREVIOUS AVTARS BUT ISMAILIS WORSHIP PRESENT AVTAR BUT NOT HIS BODY BUT NOOR.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT BODY OF IMAM IS BODY OF GOD THAN ACCORDING TO YOU THERE ARE 49 GODS.WHY DONT YOU USE YOUR COMMON SENSE THAT BODIES ARE LIKE DRESSES. THE NOOR IS GOD. JUST LIKE A MAN CHANGES HIS CLOTHES IMAM CHANGES BODIES BUT NOOR REMAINS SAME. YOU ARE SAYING THAT CLOTH OR DRESS WHICH A MAN IS WEARING IS ALSO A PART OF HIS BODT THAN IT IS FOOLISHNESS BECAUSE HE CHANGE DRESSES BUT HE CAN NOT CHANGE BODY. SIMILARLY GOD COMES IN WORLD IN FORM OF HUMAN
IF YOU REMEMBER HAZRAT MUSA WAS NOT ABLE TO SEE THE GOD WITH HIS PHYSICAL EYES SO DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE BETTER THAN HIM? PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND AND DONT DEBATE UNNECESSARILY.
WHEN HAZRAT MUSA SAW A PLANT OR TREE WHICH HAD NOOR HE CALL HIM GOD.DO YOU THINK HE WAS CALLING TREE AS GOD NO CERTAINLY NOT BUT THERE WAS NOOR IN TREE.
I HAVE TRIED A LOT TO EXPLAIN YOU BY GIVING EXAMPLES YET YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT GOD HAS NO BODY.
IF A PERSON BELIEVES IMAM JUST A HUMAN BEING THAT MEANS HE HAS NOT IMAN AND HE IS NON ISMAILI BUT IF A PERSON BELIEVES BODY OF IMAM AS GOD THAN HE IS KAFIR AND KAFIR CAN NOT BE ISMAILI.
IF A PESON WHO BELIEVES GOD IS A HUMAN BEING LIKE HIM THAT MEANS HE IS NON SENSE AS GOD IS CREATOR NOT A PART OF CREATION.
YOU SAID THAT IT IS QURAN THAT GOD HAS FACE HANDS ETC I TOLD YOU THAT IT HAS BATINI MEANINGS AND ACCORDIN TO GINANS
HEAD OF GOD IS PROPHET MOHAMMAD{PBUH}
EYES OF GOD IS HAZRAT HASSAN AND HUSSAIN
CHEST OF GOD IS HAZRAT FATIMA
AND ACCORDING TO HAZRAT MUHAMMAD {PBUH} FACE OF GOD IS ALI.
REMEMBER INSIDE THE BODY OF KRISHNA.IF BODY AS WELL INSIDE THE BODY WAS GOD THAN HE CAN NOT SEE KRISHNA WITH PHYSICAL EYES BUT HE SAW PHYSICAL HUMAN BODY BUT TO SEE GOD INSIDE THE HUMAN BODY HE NEEDED POWER, SPIRITUAL POWER.
ISMAILIS DO NOT WORSHIP BODY OF IMAM LIKE HINDUS. I HAVE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES THAT ISMAILISM IS ISMAILISM IT IS FOOLISH TO SAY THAT IT IS LIKE THIS RELIGION OR THAT.
ISMAILIS DO NOT WORSHIP PHOTOGRAPH OR IDOL OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH WHY? BECAUSE NOW THE NOOR OF GOD IS IN BODY OF KARIM HAZIR IMAM.HINDUS MADE IDOLS OF PREVIOUS AVTARS BUT ISMAILIS WORSHIP PRESENT AVTAR BUT NOT HIS BODY BUT NOOR.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT BODY OF IMAM IS BODY OF GOD THAN ACCORDING TO YOU THERE ARE 49 GODS.WHY DONT YOU USE YOUR COMMON SENSE THAT BODIES ARE LIKE DRESSES. THE NOOR IS GOD. JUST LIKE A MAN CHANGES HIS CLOTHES IMAM CHANGES BODIES BUT NOOR REMAINS SAME. YOU ARE SAYING THAT CLOTH OR DRESS WHICH A MAN IS WEARING IS ALSO A PART OF HIS BODT THAN IT IS FOOLISHNESS BECAUSE HE CHANGE DRESSES BUT HE CAN NOT CHANGE BODY. SIMILARLY GOD COMES IN WORLD IN FORM OF HUMAN
IF YOU REMEMBER HAZRAT MUSA WAS NOT ABLE TO SEE THE GOD WITH HIS PHYSICAL EYES SO DO YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE BETTER THAN HIM? PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND AND DONT DEBATE UNNECESSARILY.
WHEN HAZRAT MUSA SAW A PLANT OR TREE WHICH HAD NOOR HE CALL HIM GOD.DO YOU THINK HE WAS CALLING TREE AS GOD NO CERTAINLY NOT BUT THERE WAS NOOR IN TREE.
I HAVE TRIED A LOT TO EXPLAIN YOU BY GIVING EXAMPLES YET YOU HAVE NOT UNDERSTAND THAT GOD HAS NO BODY.
IF A PERSON BELIEVES IMAM JUST A HUMAN BEING THAT MEANS HE HAS NOT IMAN AND HE IS NON ISMAILI BUT IF A PERSON BELIEVES BODY OF IMAM AS GOD THAN HE IS KAFIR AND KAFIR CAN NOT BE ISMAILI.
IF A PESON WHO BELIEVES GOD IS A HUMAN BEING LIKE HIM THAT MEANS HE IS NON SENSE AS GOD IS CREATOR NOT A PART OF CREATION.
YOU SAID THAT IT IS QURAN THAT GOD HAS FACE HANDS ETC I TOLD YOU THAT IT HAS BATINI MEANINGS AND ACCORDIN TO GINANS
HEAD OF GOD IS PROPHET MOHAMMAD{PBUH}
EYES OF GOD IS HAZRAT HASSAN AND HUSSAIN
CHEST OF GOD IS HAZRAT FATIMA
AND ACCORDING TO HAZRAT MUHAMMAD {PBUH} FACE OF GOD IS ALI.
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star_munir
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I suggest both of you to stop this useless discussion. Why are you discussing? From what I see, both of you are believing in the same things but express it with different words. Forums are interesting when there are real debates. A discussion between 2 people can also continue by email.... unless others want to join in this topic...
ADMIN
ADMIN
Mowla Aly Kalaam
Ya Aly Madad to All
Lets look at what Mowla Aly's Farman is on this topic
"Khuda toh hai sabbse niyara, aur jo pasariya so rabb ka NOOR"
According to this Khuda is above and beyond Everything (including comprehension) and EVERYTHING is Rabb ka NOOR.
The way I understand this from Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah's Memoirs
We all live and have our being in Allah.
Farman of Imam is the ultimate definition of Haq
All else, specially our human mind & intellect, are never going to understand spiritual concepts.
Like Mowla Aly clearly delineates
1] There is Khuda.
2] There is Rabb ka Noor.
The way I see Aniskamdars statement Mowla is Noor.
Starmunir says Noor is in the Body of Imam.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah states we live and have our being in Allah
Noor is therefore EVERYWHERE.
Hopefully this would bring the discussion to a fruitful end or maybe start another one on "What is the difference between Allah and Allah's Noor"
Good Luck in this Intellectual Quest to all who venture forth.
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
Lets look at what Mowla Aly's Farman is on this topic
"Khuda toh hai sabbse niyara, aur jo pasariya so rabb ka NOOR"
According to this Khuda is above and beyond Everything (including comprehension) and EVERYTHING is Rabb ka NOOR.
The way I understand this from Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah's Memoirs
We all live and have our being in Allah.
Farman of Imam is the ultimate definition of Haq
All else, specially our human mind & intellect, are never going to understand spiritual concepts.
Like Mowla Aly clearly delineates
1] There is Khuda.
2] There is Rabb ka Noor.
The way I see Aniskamdars statement Mowla is Noor.
Starmunir says Noor is in the Body of Imam.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah states we live and have our being in Allah
Noor is therefore EVERYWHERE.
Hopefully this would bring the discussion to a fruitful end or maybe start another one on "What is the difference between Allah and Allah's Noor"
Good Luck in this Intellectual Quest to all who venture forth.
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
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aniskamdar
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Re: Mowla Aly Kalaam
Mr.Shams,shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad to All
Lets look at what Mowla Aly's Farman is on this topic
"Khuda toh hai sabbse niyara, aur jo pasariya so rabb ka NOOR"
According to this Khuda is above and beyond Everything (including comprehension) and EVERYTHING is Rabb ka NOOR.
The way I understand this from Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah's Memoirs
We all live and have our being in Allah.
Farman of Imam is the ultimate definition of Haq
All else, specially our human mind & intellect, are never going to understand spiritual concepts.
Like Mowla Aly clearly delineates
1] There is Khuda.
2] There is Rabb ka Noor.
The way I see Aniskamdars statement Mowla is Noor.
Starmunir says Noor is in the Body of Imam.
Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah states we live and have our being in Allah
Noor is therefore EVERYWHERE.
Hopefully this would bring the discussion to a fruitful end or maybe start another one on "What is the difference between Allah and Allah's Noor"
Good Luck in this Intellectual Quest to all who venture forth.
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
What appears in the Memoirs quoted by you - there is no point in going into all these with you since according to you :
1) All else, specially our human mind & intellect, are never going to understand spiritual concepts.
2) Good Luck in this Intellectual Quest to all who venture forth.
You mention that by using intellect you are never going to understand spiritual concept and you are wishing others "Good Luck in this Intellectual Quest" - and as I understand your message is --- go ahead in this intellectual quest - you will not understand the spiritual concept. It thus appears that you have been posting message in the form with this as your rule you created.
In view of your not understanding the spiritual concept - then at least go by the message Rabb/Lord is Allah - at least Allah knows what He is saying - At least Allah has understood Himself and the Spiritual Concept and only after this He is giving the message.
Allah mention that Quran is in Arabic so that the people may be able to understand :
Az-Zukhruf, or Gold Adornments (43)
3) We have made it a Quran in Arabic, that ye may be able to understand.
Ha-Mim-41
44) Had We sent this as a Qur'an other than Arabic they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! not in Arabic and an Arab?" Say: "It is a guide and a healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not there is a deafness in their ears and it is blindness in their (eyes); they are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"
From the aforesaid verse, it is also clear that whatever the language says - it is that and He, Him, His does points to a human being and Quran mention Rabb/Lord is Allah - and Rabb/Lord is addressed as He, Him, His and Allah has given this message after knowing full well what He was doing and after knowing Himself fully. If He was not He then - to address Himself He would have created a special wording instead of "He, Him and His" and used only that special wording while addressing Himself and He is capable of everything. Taking into account the Quran the Lord is Zaahir and Baatin and the Lord is HE.
and Quran also reveals:
Al-Baqara-171
2) The parable of those who reject faith is as if one were to shout like a goat-herd to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries; deaf dumb and blind they are void of wisdom.
Al-Anfal - 8
22) For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are the deaf and the dumb those who understand not.
The Admin of the forum department did term the discussion as useless and I did agree to this extent and do agree - more so, since the discussion that Ali is Allah and Ali is not bodyless was already settled and denying this is nothing but conjecture and certainly I am not interested in conjecture/fancy - which goes against truth:
Yunus - 10
36) But most of them follow nothing but conjecture: truly conjecture can be of no avail against Truth. Verily Allah is well aware of all that they do.
and hopefully if people still want to discuss - let them not include me in their wrong understanding like Mr.Shams quoted "specially our human mind......."
Anis Kamdar.
P.S.: Re - Message from Memoirs as aforesaid - God created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them from His source and hence we are living, moving and having our beings in God and God does not tell anyone that one should worship the heavens, the earth, the space, the sky, the sun, the moon, the air you breathe, the water you drink, the trees which gives you fruits, etc. - It mentions Lord should be worshipped, one should seek His Face [zahiri/batuni], one should have deedar of His greater revelation [Asal Makan], etc. inasmuch as rejecting the Rabb/Lord/God is rejecting His Light.
P.S.: During the period of discussion the site www.aniskamdar.net was under updation - this updation is now completed and the contents available.
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star_munir
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Alawis in Syria
The Nusayris are actually Alawis and were called Nusayris after the name of one of their leaders, Nusayr. Alawis although by name have an association with Ali, are quite different in their doctrines and bear no semblance to Shism as such. They are a gnostic tradition that dates back to pre-Islamic times. It is quite a versatile and eclectic tradition and has adopted and borrowed ideas from various sources ranging from Christian gnosticism to Sevener Ismailism. They have a lot of similarities with our tradition; they have their own private places of worship, they are an esoteric tradition with importance on progressive initiation into higher orders of the system, their esoteric practices are centred around remembrance and purification.
Because of their versatile nature and their openness to new ideas they present an interesting prospect in the context of Imamat's increasing involvement in the socio-economic development of Syria. Esoteric traditions that are not bound by outer forms of worship or are not too rigid with respect to the adherence to doctrine in its outward exposition, have provided the impetus for progress and revival of Muslim societies throughout history. Alawis, although a minority (about 6% of the population), comprise an influential segment of the society. The current president and important office bearers are Alawis.
Because of their versatile nature and their openness to new ideas they present an interesting prospect in the context of Imamat's increasing involvement in the socio-economic development of Syria. Esoteric traditions that are not bound by outer forms of worship or are not too rigid with respect to the adherence to doctrine in its outward exposition, have provided the impetus for progress and revival of Muslim societies throughout history. Alawis, although a minority (about 6% of the population), comprise an influential segment of the society. The current president and important office bearers are Alawis.
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star_munir
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So now as I was just reading this topic and my long useless debate with Anis Kamder I felt bad as he deleted all posts in jeaoulsy and frustration so in future any one wants to read the debate he/she will definately not read the irrelevent comments made by him. As I read the last message of Kandani it is clear the Alewis or Nusairis believe in Trinity and Ismailis do not believe in Trinity. Thanks for posting it. I also wrote in very simple language that when I wrote there is difference in Ismailis and Nusairis I am not writting about Nusairi [a person] but instead about Nusairi [ a sect] as from the main topic it is quite clear that the the question was asked about sect of Nusairis not about the Nusairy who was mentioned in Farman Mubarak. Instead of accepting mistakes lot of wrong comments were said about me like me saying that jins/space etc is God However I never wrote so. Thanks a lot to admin for making certain rules and regulations for posting in forums so there can be dicussions on various subjects in better way.
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star_munir
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According to Ismailism, the entire humanity is Mulsim as per the following statement of Hazar Imam.Maloutfy wrote:According to this discussion about the difference between Nusairis and Ismailis, would you consider Nusairis as Moslems? If not, why not? Do they have a holy book other than the Quran?
"Of course there are many different interpretations. But the differences in interpretation is not a problem in Islam. I would even go so far as to say that Islam is a very broad religion. There's a very famous line by Allah in the Quran: "I have created you from one soul." With that line, he meant all of humanity." (Agakhan IV, Deutsche Welle 12 September Interview conducted by Günter Knabe )
The following statement also resonates the above.
"To be Muslim in the universal sense is to be one who longs to turn completely toward the ultimate Source, in Arabic called Allah. Who is and who is not truly Muslim is a secret known only to Allah Most High. No human being can judge another concerning this most intimate experience of affirming and returning to the One Reality. The question of where a person stands along the exalted way of Islam, of whether one practices the five times daily prayer, or even which prophet one follows among the many sent by Allah, can only be a subject for dialogue between the soul and its All-Merciful Lord. There can be no compulsion or persecution in authentic Islam. Whoever affirms and longs to return to the ultimate Source of the universe is the beloved spiritual sister or brother of the true Muslim. Since every soul is a ray from the Divine Light, this longing to turn and to return is the secret essence of each person. Thus all humanity, even all creation, is Muslim".(Heart of Islam by Lex Hixon)
I hope this answers teh questions.
I myself am an Alawi, who, as I said in my topic belief in the Hazir Imam and Ismaili Islam.
Alawis believe in the oneness of Allah, but that Allah manifests his light in several forms on Earth, one major manifestation is the Gate, which is the Angel Gabriel, who appeared as Salman al-Farisi, as well as all of the Gates. Another is the Master Mim, who is the veil, preaching the word of Ain. Ali is the possessor of the light, as are his descendants, through Muhammad al-Mahdi.
I have come to my own understanding, which is that the Master Mim's role as the veil was inherited by Hassan and the latter few Imams of the Ithna Ashuri, including Hassan al-Askari. Looking at the teachings of Hassan al-Askari and the Gate, Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr ibn Bakr al-Numayri, it is clear that they were preaching about the continuation of the Nur of Allah and the Imamate which does not end or go into occultation, but continues.
Specifically, Ibn Nusayr said that: "For the existence of whoever is concealed and invisible is doubtful, it is therefore a sign of the wise that he worships only a revealed being.". Ibn Nusayr preached that the Nur of Allah is present in all Imams and this light is always present, if it is not here, the earth is itself destroyed, if this is so, then the disappearance of the Ithna Ashuri Mahdi would mean the end of the world. Ibn Nusayr also preached that Allah wants mankind to know Him, for knowledge is the worship of Allah. I hold that the latter Imamate of Musa to al-Askari (and the Twelver Mahdi) was the veil which conceiled the true Imamate until Imam Mahdi moved to the Maghreb and established the Fatimid state.
This is my own interpretation.
Alawis believe in the oneness of Allah, but that Allah manifests his light in several forms on Earth, one major manifestation is the Gate, which is the Angel Gabriel, who appeared as Salman al-Farisi, as well as all of the Gates. Another is the Master Mim, who is the veil, preaching the word of Ain. Ali is the possessor of the light, as are his descendants, through Muhammad al-Mahdi.
I have come to my own understanding, which is that the Master Mim's role as the veil was inherited by Hassan and the latter few Imams of the Ithna Ashuri, including Hassan al-Askari. Looking at the teachings of Hassan al-Askari and the Gate, Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr ibn Bakr al-Numayri, it is clear that they were preaching about the continuation of the Nur of Allah and the Imamate which does not end or go into occultation, but continues.
Specifically, Ibn Nusayr said that: "For the existence of whoever is concealed and invisible is doubtful, it is therefore a sign of the wise that he worships only a revealed being.". Ibn Nusayr preached that the Nur of Allah is present in all Imams and this light is always present, if it is not here, the earth is itself destroyed, if this is so, then the disappearance of the Ithna Ashuri Mahdi would mean the end of the world. Ibn Nusayr also preached that Allah wants mankind to know Him, for knowledge is the worship of Allah. I hold that the latter Imamate of Musa to al-Askari (and the Twelver Mahdi) was the veil which conceiled the true Imamate until Imam Mahdi moved to the Maghreb and established the Fatimid state.
This is my own interpretation.
I did not realise that Alawis believe in Ithana Asheri Imams. Ismailis do not share your view i.e. Hassan Al-Askari to be the "veil". Ismailis do not even recognise al-Askari as an Ismaili Imam. The line of Ismaili Imams is totally different. They do not recognise Ithnasheri Imams and Ithna Asheris do not recognise Ismaili Imams. It is probable that Al-Askari was confident that his line would continue to the end of times and hence he made those statements. However, it ended soon after and contrary to his belief ended in occultation.I have come to my own understanding, which is that the Master Mim's role as the veil was inherited by Hassan and the latter few Imams of the Ithna Ashuri, including Hassan al-Askari. Looking at the teachings of Hassan al-Askari and the Gate, Abu Shu'ayb Muhammad ibn Nusayr ibn Bakr al-Numayri, it is clear that they were preaching about the continuation of the Nur of Allah and the Imamate which does not end or go into occultation, but continues.
As for the emergence of Muhammad Al-Mahdi, he already appeared according to prophecy of the Prophet S.A.W., in Maghareb. Whereas Ithana Asheris believe that their Imam Mahdi will appear - i.e. they are awaiting his arrival.
Ismailis believe that Imam has to be on earth and guide his flock. Imams are no cowards who hide for years and years. No loving parent would leave his children and disappear for generations without making a contact.
Prophet S.A.W. has said that anyone who dies without knowing his Imam will have died the death of Jahaliya. This proves that an Imam has to be on Earth to guide his people.
Al-hamdullillah, no Ismaili will die a death of Jahaliya.
Virgo2
I am quite aware of this. Hence, my view that Hassan al-Askari and the Ithna Ashuri Imams are the veils for the true Imamate, and their existance shields the true one.
I mentioned in my own response that I believe and Alawis believe the Imamate must be present and hence, I came to the conclusion the Ithna Ashuri Imamate must be incorrect.
I even stated that I believed the veiling of the true Imamate to have ended in its purpose when the true Mahdi arrived in the Maghreb and established the Fatimid state.
We do not disagree at all, except on the role of the veil in helping to conceal the true Imamate. I accept Karim el-Husayni, the Aga Khan IV as the present and true Imam, all Shi'a claim their Imam is "hiding" or in occultation, with the exception of the Nizari, who have the Imam present with them. As I quoted earlier, a fundamental belief in Alawi theology is that Allah's light always manifests itself on Earth, reveals itself and takes forms so that people may find and know. Knowledge is the true worship of Allah, we are in agreement that this light must be present on Earth, else the world falls into confusion and dies, hence, it was the very foundations of Alawi theology that has led me to accept the Hazar Imam.
I mentioned in my own response that I believe and Alawis believe the Imamate must be present and hence, I came to the conclusion the Ithna Ashuri Imamate must be incorrect.
I even stated that I believed the veiling of the true Imamate to have ended in its purpose when the true Mahdi arrived in the Maghreb and established the Fatimid state.
We do not disagree at all, except on the role of the veil in helping to conceal the true Imamate. I accept Karim el-Husayni, the Aga Khan IV as the present and true Imam, all Shi'a claim their Imam is "hiding" or in occultation, with the exception of the Nizari, who have the Imam present with them. As I quoted earlier, a fundamental belief in Alawi theology is that Allah's light always manifests itself on Earth, reveals itself and takes forms so that people may find and know. Knowledge is the true worship of Allah, we are in agreement that this light must be present on Earth, else the world falls into confusion and dies, hence, it was the very foundations of Alawi theology that has led me to accept the Hazar Imam.