Hello
I posted yesterday here, on our wedding ceremonies and the rituals It is not here, maybe I did something wrong.
Anyways, once again, I am searching for our rituals and their meanings.
Can anyone help.
Wedding Cermonies
In USA
YAM Akina,
In USA the ceremony involves the signing of a marriage contract and the mukhi and mukhiani putting the ring on the Groom and Brides fingers and blessing them. The whole process takes a grand total of 2-3 minutes. (depending on how fast everyone stands up for the ring wearing ceremony)
Obtaining a marriage license ahead of time is mandatory.
Thats it, marriage over, go home everyone.
YAM
Shams
In USA the ceremony involves the signing of a marriage contract and the mukhi and mukhiani putting the ring on the Groom and Brides fingers and blessing them. The whole process takes a grand total of 2-3 minutes. (depending on how fast everyone stands up for the ring wearing ceremony)
Obtaining a marriage license ahead of time is mandatory.
Thats it, marriage over, go home everyone.
YAM
Shams
Last edited by shamsu on Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Significance of marriage
It would perhaps be appropriate to quote the significance of a marriage in Islam as per ISMS from his "Memoirs".
It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
How about calling close relatives to your house for chai and biscuit? And some mithaee if you wish. Just because you feel happy and wish to share your happiness.Thats it, marriage over, go home everyone.
The problem arises when we spend thousands of dollars for a wedding receptions at 5 star hotel and invite even those who we may not even see for long time. Of course the argument that you spend thousands because you can afford thousands is ridiculous in itself.
Now tell me if we as an Ismaili community don't have this problem in particular? Before anyone complains, yes others do have this problem as well. And before anyone does not find enough guts to write, yes we have thousands and we don't have a clue why we spend those thousands on ridiculous wedding ceremonies.
Ya Ali Madad to All
In my humble opinion, the nikkarh ceremony is necessary in Islam. In Prophet Muhummad's time (PBOH), a small party was thrown (called walima) which consisted of few people, mostly close family members and close friends. The rest of the ceremonies and gatherings observed by us Ismailis are unrelated to the Islamic tradtion. They are mostly cultural traditions that stem from mostly the Indo-Pak culture.
I hope this will help you.
May Mowla Bless You All
Karim
In my humble opinion, the nikkarh ceremony is necessary in Islam. In Prophet Muhummad's time (PBOH), a small party was thrown (called walima) which consisted of few people, mostly close family members and close friends. The rest of the ceremonies and gatherings observed by us Ismailis are unrelated to the Islamic tradtion. They are mostly cultural traditions that stem from mostly the Indo-Pak culture.
I hope this will help you.
May Mowla Bless You All
Karim
What is the definition of Nikkah ceremony according to Ismailism? My understanding is that it has mostly to do with cultural and geographical traditions rather than religious but I am more than willing to listen to what others have to say.In my humble opinion, the nikkarh ceremony is necessary in Islam
Wedding rituals
YAM
I recently attended a Khoja wedding in London Darkhana, I was shocked to see Dhudpini and Pithi ceremonies being performed, when HI has specifically banned these practices!
Why is it that Khoja isma'ilis practice so many "indian" rituals?
I recently attended a Khoja wedding in London Darkhana, I was shocked to see Dhudpini and Pithi ceremonies being performed, when HI has specifically banned these practices!
Why is it that Khoja isma'ilis practice so many "indian" rituals?
Re: Wedding rituals
hsnbsh wrote:YAM
I recently attended a Khoja wedding in London Darkhana, I was shocked to see Dhudpini and Pithi ceremonies being performed, when HI has specifically banned these practices!
Why is it that Khoja isma'ilis practice so many "indian" rituals?
This is the first time i am hearing this!! When did MHI make such Farman?
Re: Wedding rituals
hsnbsh wrote:YAM
I recently attended a Khoja wedding in London Darkhana, I was shocked to see Dhudpini and Pithi ceremonies being performed, when HI has specifically banned these practices!
Why is it that Khoja isma'ilis practice so many "indian" rituals?
so it's okay to have a nikaah ceremony..which isn't islamic in origin...but arabic..but not to go by indian traditions?
In case you haven't noticed Khoja ismailies are ethnic indians....
Shams
It is difficult for me to understand why some people insist on Nikah ceremony and why they have a problem with Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's definition of marrigae [which by the way is the same definition Hazar Imam is giving in several interviews.] which does not require any ceremony of religious nature.
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nyorker2006
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:00 pm
Nikaah Ceremony
I just came across a message o­n your forum that states that Nikaah is not an islamic practice - Yes it is. Obviously someone writing this is confused between culture and religion.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>S.M
Re: Nikaah Ceremony
Provide historical context that doesn't relate this to the Arabic culture..also provide quranic references to Nikaah.nyorker2006 wrote:I just came across a message o­n your forum that states that Nikaah is not an islamic practice - Yes it is. Obviously someone writing this is confused between culture and religion.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>S.M
S.
I think hsnbsh and Akina may have struck a nerve or to amongst foe here. And it seems like that it is a cultural matter not a religious matter or culture shock to be exact.
There are some ceremonial reading from Quran has been a tradition going back to Imam Moiez and one can even go back the Ali as well. In my grandparents [and before them] tradition the bride wears white dress and there is always sacrificial lamb [not the groom but real lamb], cigars, gun fires in celebrations.
I think if the recent memory serves me right, The Present Imam had a ceremonial reading from Quran.
There are some ceremonial reading from Quran has been a tradition going back to Imam Moiez and one can even go back the Ali as well. In my grandparents [and before them] tradition the bride wears white dress and there is always sacrificial lamb [not the groom but real lamb], cigars, gun fires in celebrations.
I think if the recent memory serves me right, The Present Imam had a ceremonial reading from Quran.
Re: Nikaah Ceremony
Off the top, I can tell you that Sura Nisa, sets the rules (or prohibitions) as whom on can not marry. It would take me some time to look it up...ShamsB wrote: ..also provide quranic references to Nikaah.
Re: In USA
If I may,shamsu wrote:YAM Akina,
In USA the ceremony involves the signing of a marriage contract and the mukhi and mukhiani putting the ring on the Groom and Brides fingers and blessing them. The whole process takes a grand total of 2-3 minutes. (depending on how fast everyone stands up for the ring wearing ceremony)
Obtaining a marriage license ahead of time is mandatory.
Thats it, marriage over, go home everyone.
Shams
That is all there is to a NIKAH.
And, it does not have to be in the Saudi Arabian language or conducted by mullahs.
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chaturfamily
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:10 am
Hi Akina
There are so many different ceremonies, but they are not Islamic, except the actual khana ceremony.
The mehndi, pithi, gurdi, coin tray, chedro, dudhpini, throwing rice till you walk out the door, and also going to khana on the sunday after lunch is all east african methods created and some come from india, but nothing is Islamic.
The mehndi is to show decor, and to distinguish the bride from others.
The pithi was so the bride and groom smell nice, and brings fairness to the skin, but these days they have fun with it, with whipcream, eggs and things like that. Its like the family wants to bug the groom so much, before the wife comes along.
The gurdi ceremony is to ward off evil, and the water from khana is to signify protection and also to ward off evil. But the gurdi holder cant look back or talk from the khana to the house, and trust me many have, and nothing has happened, its an old ritual from our ancestors of E. Africa.
The coin tray is just an offering to the bride
The chedro, is a way to include the youngsters to the ceremonies and also to add some fun to the wedding ceremony as ours really are boring.
The dudhpini, is a sad moment, when members of the family are saying their last goodbyes to the bride. I dont know what the special milk signifies, its healthy and warm, thats what I know.
The throwing of the rice till the door is probably some sort of decorative and festive ritual to show her last steps out of her home.
The bride goes to khana is given a fruit, which she must eat completely, its for fertility. And there is a coconut that the car tire crushes to ward off evil, this also has to be eaten by the couple.
Our weddings are not colourful, exciting or of any real significance. Even in khana, its the Mukhi that puts the rings on our fingers, the couple dont say anything, its all said and done for them. It would make one wonder, if the couple is actually getting married. How can we say that the marriage is of their vows, or bond, when we just stand there and there is no connection between the bride and groom whatsoever.
The mukhi could give the couple the rings to put on their fingers as it would signify their bond, but no, they are sort of bonding with the mukhi, or the religion, not the marriage. Isnt it odd how we do things?
Oh well that is the way it is, and probably will stay.
There are so many different ceremonies, but they are not Islamic, except the actual khana ceremony.
The mehndi, pithi, gurdi, coin tray, chedro, dudhpini, throwing rice till you walk out the door, and also going to khana on the sunday after lunch is all east african methods created and some come from india, but nothing is Islamic.
The mehndi is to show decor, and to distinguish the bride from others.
The pithi was so the bride and groom smell nice, and brings fairness to the skin, but these days they have fun with it, with whipcream, eggs and things like that. Its like the family wants to bug the groom so much, before the wife comes along.
The gurdi ceremony is to ward off evil, and the water from khana is to signify protection and also to ward off evil. But the gurdi holder cant look back or talk from the khana to the house, and trust me many have, and nothing has happened, its an old ritual from our ancestors of E. Africa.
The coin tray is just an offering to the bride
The chedro, is a way to include the youngsters to the ceremonies and also to add some fun to the wedding ceremony as ours really are boring.
The dudhpini, is a sad moment, when members of the family are saying their last goodbyes to the bride. I dont know what the special milk signifies, its healthy and warm, thats what I know.
The throwing of the rice till the door is probably some sort of decorative and festive ritual to show her last steps out of her home.
The bride goes to khana is given a fruit, which she must eat completely, its for fertility. And there is a coconut that the car tire crushes to ward off evil, this also has to be eaten by the couple.
Our weddings are not colourful, exciting or of any real significance. Even in khana, its the Mukhi that puts the rings on our fingers, the couple dont say anything, its all said and done for them. It would make one wonder, if the couple is actually getting married. How can we say that the marriage is of their vows, or bond, when we just stand there and there is no connection between the bride and groom whatsoever.
The mukhi could give the couple the rings to put on their fingers as it would signify their bond, but no, they are sort of bonding with the mukhi, or the religion, not the marriage. Isnt it odd how we do things?
Oh well that is the way it is, and probably will stay.
What is Islamic?chaturfamily wrote:Hi Akina
There are so many different ceremonies, but they are not Islamic, except the actual khana ceremony.
The mehndi, pithi, gurdi, coin tray, chedro, dudhpini, throwing rice till you walk out the door, and also going to khana on the sunday after lunch is all east african methods created and some come from india, but nothing is Islamic.
The mehndi is to show decor, and to distinguish the bride from others.
The pithi was so the bride and groom smell nice, and brings fairness to the skin, but these days they have fun with it, with whipcream, eggs and things like that. Its like the family wants to bug the groom so much, before the wife comes along.
The gurdi ceremony is to ward off evil, and the water from khana is to signify protection and also to ward off evil. But the gurdi holder cant look back or talk from the khana to the house, and trust me many have, and nothing has happened, its an old ritual from our ancestors of E. Africa.
The coin tray is just an offering to the bride
The chedro, is a way to include the youngsters to the ceremonies and also to add some fun to the wedding ceremony as ours really are boring.
The dudhpini, is a sad moment, when members of the family are saying their last goodbyes to the bride. I dont know what the special milk signifies, its healthy and warm, thats what I know.
The throwing of the rice till the door is probably some sort of decorative and festive ritual to show her last steps out of her home.
The bride goes to khana is given a fruit, which she must eat completely, its for fertility. And there is a coconut that the car tire crushes to ward off evil, this also has to be eaten by the couple.
Our weddings are not colourful, exciting or of any real significance. Even in khana, its the Mukhi that puts the rings on our fingers, the couple dont say anything, its all said and done for them. It would make one wonder, if the couple is actually getting married. How can we say that the marriage is of their vows, or bond, when we just stand there and there is no connection between the bride and groom whatsoever.
The mukhi could give the couple the rings to put on their fingers as it would signify their bond, but no, they are sort of bonding with the mukhi, or the religion, not the marriage. Isnt it odd how we do things?
Oh well that is the way it is, and probably will stay.
Maybe, we should put you all in ISLAMIC veils for body & VOICE; only, then would you appreciate the values of the faith that you have been blessed with.
Islamic wedding or a Nikah is a revocable contract between a man & woman duly witnessed, authorized and a dower pledged. The dower has significance if sharia'h laws of the mullahs are enforced. EVERYTHING else is secondary and a ceremony should reflect his/her heritage i.e Indian, afghani, indonesian, tajiki, syrian, etc.
It is your option to, let's say, have recitation of the quran , i.e. Sura Nisa - relevant in a wedding and if you feel that Quran supercedes your Intellect and everything it says must be literally followed and for all eternity, akin to the Judeo-Christian tradition where a women is a possession and even her milk belongs to the husband:
004.003
YUSUFALI: If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive/slave) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
004.004
YUSUFALI: And give the women (on marriage) their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, Take it and enjoy it with right good cheer.
004.015
YUSUFALI: If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
004.016
YUSUFALI: If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.
004.020
YUSUFALI: But if ye decide to take one wife in place of another, even if ye had given the latter a whole treasure for dower, Take not the least bit of it back: Would ye take it by slander and manifest wrong?
004.023
YUSUFALI: Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-
004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess(slaves/captives): Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
Wedding in the month of Ramadan?
The month of Ramadan which starts in mid September 2007 is a holy month, but I would like to know if a wedding can take place during this period. Any views, thoughts please??
Re: Wedding in the month of Ramadan?
Diva wrote:The month of Ramadan which starts in mid September 2007 is a holy month, but I would like to know if a wedding can take place during this period. Any views, thoughts please??
YAM Diva,
I can't see any reason why not! I know of a wedding that was conducted in the evening after the fasting was done etc....... things are back to normal after the fasting for the day is done any way. We go to movies, listen to music, have parties etc....... so I don't see why not a wedding. Good Luck to you and hope you have a great wedding. It is just a matter of choice.
Bashir
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no1Ismailli
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:53 pm
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mehwishameen
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 12:59 pm
nikah
<P>nikah is very important in islam if is not then why did HI call a maulwi and hold nikah ceremony both time?</P>
nagib wrote:It is difficult for me to understand why some people insist on Nikah ceremony and why they have a problem with Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's definition of marrigae [which by the way is the same definition Hazar Imam is giving in several interviews.] which does not require any ceremony of religious nature.
I understand what MSMS has stated and do not have anythign against His definition, but I would like some explanation or clarification.
To me, the word Nikkah refers to a contract. So here are the 2 ways I define them by help of the ideas discussed in this thread and what I have read so far.
The Nikkah ceremony itself is as said by others in the forum, a tradition from other cultures, and as we know traditions and religion sometimes get intertwined and then we can no longer differentiate whether what we practice today is religiously required of us or part of a tradition from our ancestors... Now when we speak of traditions, I guess we should be considering traditions from various backgrounds since we are such a diverse jamat.
Now, I know I may be at this point mixing Islamic practices and traditions, but bear with me since I really am trying to understand the importance behind some ceremonies.
So, the word nikkah itself means contract. This contract is signed outside khane, or if the mukhi kamadia are registered, the contract can be signed in khane, and then the exchange of the rings is part of this contract binding. And if I understand right, MSMS said nothing more than this is required.
But does this not mean that you may do it, but it is not required...
Now we consider Nikkah as per the recitation of the arabic verses from I believe the Quran or from Furu al-Kafi (which is one of the most authoritative Shia hadith collections, containing eight volumes. It consists of books and sections on jurisprudence and is one of the authoritative reference books for deduction and independent reasoning (ijtihad) from Islamic law for the Shi'a jurisprudents (fiqh).- Wikipedia).
So, its from Islamic law, and from Shia background..but not ismailism..I think this is where I get slightly confused... Because although Nikkah is not from Ismaili practices, MHI had it done for His wedding ceremonies. (Now I myself can justify to some level this , but would rather have someone elses support on this matter). It is not the idea that why did HI do it, but rather, I am trying to find out why Ismailis should NOT perform Nikkah..is there really a reason not to?
I also wonder why or why Not to perform the Nikkah ceremony itself because of the fact that it's been mentioned in this thread that many of our marriage ceremonies are actually taken from indo-pak cultures...Nikkah is also taken from Arabic cultures (as mentioned by someone in the thread), and thus practices by Pakistanis and Afghani cultures amongst others. MHI mentions to build bridges and accept other traditions in our diverse jamat...This being said...why do people have anything against the Nikkah ceremony if we are supposed to be incorporating and accepting all traditions.
I guess in the end, my real question is, is there anything wrong with doing the Nikkah ceremony? By doing it would we be going against what MSMS has said? Or what MHI has said in His interviews? Or at a different level, is doing the Nikkah ceremony "insulting" in anyway to the importance of the authority of Mukhi/Kamadia in the "2-3 min" ceremony they perform?
(Also, on the side, can anyone tell me what exactly is said in the Nikkah ceremony recitation?)
Please excuse the lack of sequence and formulation of thoughts...
Hope to hear your thoughts on this matter. All views are welcome.
Thanks
Re: nikah
We should not follow what the Imam does but what he tells us. Outwardly the Imam expresses himself as a Muslim and from that perspective he will follow the norms of Muslims in general and hence the performance of Nikkah in his weddings.mehwishameen wrote:<P>nikah is very important in islam if is not then why did HI call a maulwi and hold nikah ceremony both time?</P>
From an Ismaili perspective I do not believe that it is an essential ceremony.
Re: nikah
Yeah - so tomorrow we'll all start wearing shoes in Jamat khana and buying up racehorses and jet planes because that's what hazar imam does.mehwishameen wrote:<P>nikah is very important in islam if is not then why did HI call a maulwi and hold nikah ceremony both time?</P>
Shams
Re: nikah
<P>imho, if o­ne wants to do Nikkah then they can. In Toronto, we do Nikkah ceremony followed by muki/kamdia performing the traditional ismaili ceremony according to our tariqh.<BR><BR>At time of Nikkah, the guy can receit/do his own kabolat if he wants..so there is interaction.<BR><BR>As far as muki/kamdia performing the ceremony + putting the ring. what better person to do this then the individauls who represent your Imam. Just like when you do for Dua Karvia or channta. Individauls don't seem to have any issues when you go up and ask for forgivess.....Yeah maybe we watch alot of North American shows and how the men and women want to exchange vows and get social recogniation and so o­n. thats fine too in my book.. and we actually did that as well.<BR><BR>Also to take it a step further, we did Nikkah + ceremony with the mukki and after the ring was o­n, we ensure that we took time and exchanged vows with each other and in front of everybody and put the rings back o­n. <BR><BR>Its all how you perceive things. Don't let anybody else tell you otherwise that its wrong or right. Think about what you *husband and wife* want to do as a couple and make YOUR decision, Listen to all your family members even if they are inaccurate and may have old skewl mentality, but still, make your decision...like we have done.<BR><BR>Its a marriage...make it the best...Yeah even I had to comprimise alot, as o­ne side did not want nikkah and the other side did. its crazy... but you know what..Religion is not clear cut.....its not even explained 100% accurately, so many variables in it and we here are talking about just o­ne topic Nikkah.<BR><BR>I just want to know if there was ever any Farmans made by our present living Imam about <BR>How marriage is to be conducted in ismaili tariqh<BR>What is imam advice and guidance o­n Nikkah and is that mandotory or optional.<BR>Imam is the sole authority o­n all tariqh matters, well this is a tariqh matter no? so i'm sure bapu has some farmans out there or something...If any of you have those info, care to share?<BR></P>