Council
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
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I think what really bothered me was the announcement made after HI's visit, that he was unhappy with his murids being present. I wonder if that was really true? If it was then he certainly didn't look unhappy, smiling and waving at his murids.
In regards to his visit to UofT, why is it that all the remaining tickets were bought up by the council, its ok for a council member to see HI, but not the rest of the murids?
I realize that it is futile to be consumed by all this, and that we have access to HI ( without any boundaries) when we attend JK. But for those of us who have not had deedar for a long time and are yearning, those brief glimpses were everything!
I am not blaming the council, and I understand that there are many who are serving with clean hearts, I am just afraid that the council is becoming such a bureaucracy that they are forgetting the emotional aspects.
In regards to his visit to UofT, why is it that all the remaining tickets were bought up by the council, its ok for a council member to see HI, but not the rest of the murids?
I realize that it is futile to be consumed by all this, and that we have access to HI ( without any boundaries) when we attend JK. But for those of us who have not had deedar for a long time and are yearning, those brief glimpses were everything!
I am not blaming the council, and I understand that there are many who are serving with clean hearts, I am just afraid that the council is becoming such a bureaucracy that they are forgetting the emotional aspects.
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_thaillestlunatic_
- Posts: 179
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Ya Aly Madat Faria,
I was also there and I shared the same frustration that you are encountering right now even months since June. I have talked to the members of the council, and from what most of them have said is that they had NO problem with murids there, it was they didn't want the jamat bowing down or folding hands or reciting salwat or anything of that sort. MHI is never unhappy with his murids how hurting is it for a council member to tell a 15 year old kid that the Imam is upset with him? I think that is where council didn't approach the murids there in the right way. They were intimidating the jamat even non ismailes were present. People in Central Asia have not had deedar for centuries and we are upset because council didnt let us go. But Faria don't be sad and upset because MHI will be comming for zaheri deedar very very soon, he indicated it to the leaders of the International Forum and in that same talika after MHI visited Ottawa and Toronto. What bothered me was that I know of a few who had REAL tickets to the Convocation but were not let in because of council. I think council really took it too far and should have been in a happy mood and not disturbing numerous murids and upsetting them like they did at U OF T.
I was also there and I shared the same frustration that you are encountering right now even months since June. I have talked to the members of the council, and from what most of them have said is that they had NO problem with murids there, it was they didn't want the jamat bowing down or folding hands or reciting salwat or anything of that sort. MHI is never unhappy with his murids how hurting is it for a council member to tell a 15 year old kid that the Imam is upset with him? I think that is where council didn't approach the murids there in the right way. They were intimidating the jamat even non ismailes were present. People in Central Asia have not had deedar for centuries and we are upset because council didnt let us go. But Faria don't be sad and upset because MHI will be comming for zaheri deedar very very soon, he indicated it to the leaders of the International Forum and in that same talika after MHI visited Ottawa and Toronto. What bothered me was that I know of a few who had REAL tickets to the Convocation but were not let in because of council. I think council really took it too far and should have been in a happy mood and not disturbing numerous murids and upsetting them like they did at U OF T.
UOT Visit
I was there too And I was approached by some of the council folks too. They did ask me, who I was at first and where I was from...(I am Persian by heritage and Ismaili) I told them I was from States and was there just to see The Imam. They were trying to tell me that it was not appropriate to be there. I ended up explain’ to them that God created everything, beautiful birds, flowers and also snakes and pigs, Imam(s) over time have created many great institutions like beautiful Jamet Khanas, other institutions and there are also Tariqa Boards and Councils and I asked them if they got my drift?
I see it this way, there is Imam & me, and nothing in between.
I see it this way, there is Imam & me, and nothing in between.
Does our Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah & Rel. Edn. Board for Canada have the authority to make changes in our Tariqah without the consent of our missionaries or MHI? Are they religiously qualified to do such changes as to add and remove tasbeeh etc ......?
Does anyone know this or are we just blindly following what they say?
If such changes are made in our Tariqah don't you think we (jamat) such be informed as to why such changes are made? Recently in Vancouver the "Tasbeeh kadho Pir Sadardin jey Choghadiyaji-33 beads Pir Shah" has been dicontinued according to Abually missionary in his email. He is very furious and says:
This tasbeeh is coming down from the time of the Holy Pir as an expression of our gratitude for the information about the ASWARI of the Holy Imam who will fight the evil forces (of Daiyint Kalinga-the Dajjal in Islamic term) and establish the New Era known in our sacred Ginans as the Ratan Yoog (the Dawn of PEACE) on earth. And the Imam of that Time will rule the world in the City of Islam. The entire world (population: about a half billion after mass destruction of men and material throughout the world) will adore the Holy Qayam of that Time. They will all be Muslims as mentioned in the Holy Quran. The Holy Pir says that in that period there will not be any crime or sin, no one will hurt anyone. The Holy Pir has also given us the date about it with precison.
For all this information and the fortunacy of our birth in this Holy Satpanth we were told by the Pir to thank the Lord after singing the ginan of Praise of the Imam of the Time, sanji na Choghadiya, (which is mandatory) but has been stopped.
(If anyone is interested in reading the whole email by Abually Missionary I will be glad to forward it).
If this tasbeeh is very important as per Abually Missionary why did Tariqah Board remove it? Do they know more than the misssionaries? Any ideas?
Does anyone know this or are we just blindly following what they say?
If such changes are made in our Tariqah don't you think we (jamat) such be informed as to why such changes are made? Recently in Vancouver the "Tasbeeh kadho Pir Sadardin jey Choghadiyaji-33 beads Pir Shah" has been dicontinued according to Abually missionary in his email. He is very furious and says:
This tasbeeh is coming down from the time of the Holy Pir as an expression of our gratitude for the information about the ASWARI of the Holy Imam who will fight the evil forces (of Daiyint Kalinga-the Dajjal in Islamic term) and establish the New Era known in our sacred Ginans as the Ratan Yoog (the Dawn of PEACE) on earth. And the Imam of that Time will rule the world in the City of Islam. The entire world (population: about a half billion after mass destruction of men and material throughout the world) will adore the Holy Qayam of that Time. They will all be Muslims as mentioned in the Holy Quran. The Holy Pir says that in that period there will not be any crime or sin, no one will hurt anyone. The Holy Pir has also given us the date about it with precison.
For all this information and the fortunacy of our birth in this Holy Satpanth we were told by the Pir to thank the Lord after singing the ginan of Praise of the Imam of the Time, sanji na Choghadiya, (which is mandatory) but has been stopped.
(If anyone is interested in reading the whole email by Abually Missionary I will be glad to forward it).
If this tasbeeh is very important as per Abually Missionary why did Tariqah Board remove it? Do they know more than the misssionaries? Any ideas?
Yeah I read the email and Abualy missionary is talking on behalf of 60 thousand ismaili that he is very angry that this tasbeeh has been stopped. I do not blame him coz he has been missionary since 1938 and who knows better than him!
I think the best ppl to approach would be mukhis and kamerias and ask them why this tasbeeh was stopped. I guess they will say that they take orders from our Tariqah Board. But surely in my opinion what do members of T.B. know about our Tasbeehs and Ginans? Who could be more qualified in our religious education than our missionaries. MSMS has great regards for our missionaries and praised them occasionally.
To be honest our religious kiriya in jk is getting shorter and shorter. By the i mean that jk is over in half an hour during week days. After dua there is a short firman followed by short ginan and that's it. Only on fridays its a bit long coz we meet friends & families. There is no waaz or other activities like in the old days. And now the TB is trying to make it even shorter by removing important tasbeehs and ginans et..... I might as well stay home and say my dua in peaceful enviornment. But on the other hand MHI is saying go to jk on day basis. Who would question TB other than our missionaries coz they are in position to do so I guess and we should support them.
Well I hope we will get some answer from somewhere why this powerful tasbeeh was stopped. Maybe TB should answer Abualy missionary's email or post here the answer. I doubt it very much. Good Luck to US.
Sofiya if you hear more on this important issue pls keep us posted.
I think the best ppl to approach would be mukhis and kamerias and ask them why this tasbeeh was stopped. I guess they will say that they take orders from our Tariqah Board. But surely in my opinion what do members of T.B. know about our Tasbeehs and Ginans? Who could be more qualified in our religious education than our missionaries. MSMS has great regards for our missionaries and praised them occasionally.
To be honest our religious kiriya in jk is getting shorter and shorter. By the i mean that jk is over in half an hour during week days. After dua there is a short firman followed by short ginan and that's it. Only on fridays its a bit long coz we meet friends & families. There is no waaz or other activities like in the old days. And now the TB is trying to make it even shorter by removing important tasbeehs and ginans et..... I might as well stay home and say my dua in peaceful enviornment. But on the other hand MHI is saying go to jk on day basis. Who would question TB other than our missionaries coz they are in position to do so I guess and we should support them.
Well I hope we will get some answer from somewhere why this powerful tasbeeh was stopped. Maybe TB should answer Abualy missionary's email or post here the answer. I doubt it very much. Good Luck to US.
Sofiya if you hear more on this important issue pls keep us posted.
I quote the farman of the Imam...Sass wrote:Yeah I read the email and Abualy missionary is talking on behalf of 60 thousand ismaili that he is very angry that this tasbeeh has been stopped. I do not blame him coz he has been missionary since 1938 and who knows better than him!
I think the best ppl to approach would be mukhis and kamerias and ask them why this tasbeeh was stopped. I guess they will say that they take orders from our Tariqah Board. But surely in my opinion what do members of T.B. know about our Tasbeehs and Ginans? Who could be more qualified in our religious education than our missionaries. MSMS has great regards for our missionaries and praised them occasionally.
To be honest our religious kiriya in jk is getting shorter and shorter. By the i mean that jk is over in half an hour during week days. After dua there is a short firman followed by short ginan and that's it. Only on fridays its a bit long coz we meet friends & families. There is no waaz or other activities like in the old days. And now the TB is trying to make it even shorter by removing important tasbeehs and ginans et..... I might as well stay home and say my dua in peaceful enviornment. But on the other hand MHI is saying go to jk on day basis. Who would question TB other than our missionaries coz they are in position to do so I guess and we should support them.
Well I hope we will get some answer from somewhere why this powerful tasbeeh was stopped. Maybe TB should answer Abualy missionary's email or post here the answer. I doubt it very much. Good Luck to US.
Sofiya if you hear more on this important issue pls keep us posted.
"our faith is one of conviction..not of convienence"
I think someone forgot to tell the Tariqah Board in regards to this farman of the Imam.
Shams
Shams, for some of our people our faith is of convenience if you know what I mean! They are there to take the full benefit of whatever is available to them. Hope you understand what I mean. And those with power go over-board.ShamsB wrote:I quote the farman of the Imam...Sass wrote:Yeah I read the email and Abualy missionary is talking on behalf of 60 thousand ismaili that he is very angry that this tasbeeh has been stopped. I do not blame him coz he has been missionary since 1938 and who knows better than him!
I think the best ppl to approach would be mukhis and kamerias and ask them why this tasbeeh was stopped. I guess they will say that they take orders from our Tariqah Board. But surely in my opinion what do members of T.B. know about our Tasbeehs and Ginans? Who could be more qualified in our religious education than our missionaries. MSMS has great regards for our missionaries and praised them occasionally.
To be honest our religious kiriya in jk is getting shorter and shorter. By the i mean that jk is over in half an hour during week days. After dua there is a short firman followed by short ginan and that's it. Only on fridays its a bit long coz we meet friends & families. There is no waaz or other activities like in the old days. And now the TB is trying to make it even shorter by removing important tasbeehs and ginans et..... I might as well stay home and say my dua in peaceful enviornment. But on the other hand MHI is saying go to jk on day basis. Who would question TB other than our missionaries coz they are in position to do so I guess and we should support them.
Well I hope we will get some answer from somewhere why this powerful tasbeeh was stopped. Maybe TB should answer Abualy missionary's email or post here the answer. I doubt it very much. Good Luck to US.
Sofiya if you hear more on this important issue pls keep us posted.
"our faith is one of conviction..not of convienence"
I think someone forgot to tell the Tariqah Board in regards to this farman of the Imam.
Shams
Re: Abuali
al-azhar wrote:I have not read the email, but I wonder why Abuali being a missionary not question the TB rather than send emails? I am sure he would get a proper answer from the TB.
Good question. I think they would not listen to him that is why he has gone public, this is my pure guess. If this tashib is powerful, then we should support Abu Ali Missionary.
BTW our Tariqah Board will not be happy with this new title of TB. LOL
Re: Abuali
They've been called TB in East Africa for over 20 years nowAeesta wrote:al-azhar wrote:I have not read the email, but I wonder why Abuali being a missionary not question the TB rather than send emails? I am sure he would get a proper answer from the TB.
Good question. I think they would not listen to him that is why he has gone public, this is my pure guess. If this tashib is powerful, then we should support Abu Ali Missionary.
BTW our Tariqah Board will not be happy with this new title of TB. LOL
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Only The Imam makes the changes and TB only tries its best to carry it out.sofiya wrote:Does our Shia Imami Ismaili Tariqah & Rel. Edn. Board for Canada have the authority to make changes in our Tariqah without the consent of our missionaries or MHI? Are they religiously qualified to do such changes as to add and remove tasbeeh etc ......?
I am sorry sofiya I don't understand the Pir Tradition so it would be unfair for me to comment but I my ancestral tradition they also do address The 51st and (1/4) or Qayam (Qayam Shah).
And as for the period of peace it is also the Bible chapter on Armageddon.
THE IMAM.Sass wrote:Yeah I read the email and Abualy missionary is talking on behalf of 60 thousand ismaili that he is very angry that this tasbeeh has been stopped. I do not blame him coz he has been missionary since 1938 and who knows better than him!
But ppl/missionaries do go rouge sometimes. We don't know the future but we could look back to in recent memories to name a few high-profile personalities. And Abuali does not have that good of a record either. Yes, he may be able to convince or deliver his take in a convincing matter but again there have been many religious or otherwise -leaders who had quiet a bit of influence on masses.Sass wrote: I think the best ppl to approach would be mukhis and kamerias and ask them why this tasbeeh was stopped. I guess they will say that they take orders from our Tariqah Board. But surely in my opinion what do members of T.B. know about our Tasbeehs and Ginans? Who could be more qualified in our religious education than our missionaries. MSMS has great regards for our missionaries and praised them occasionally.
I have to look but there is a Farman from The Present Imam to keep the services within 30 min.Sass wrote: To be honest our religious kiriya in jk is getting shorter and shorter. By the i mean that jk is over in half an hour during week days.
I think you should realize that Ismaili Tariqah is a diversity of culture, language, socioeconomic backgrounds and therefore there cannot be common solutions to diverse needs. Our Tariqah has evolved through varied historical circumstances and continues to be practiced in diverse circumstances. Therefore there cannot be Farmans applicable to all Ismailis of all circumstances hence the need for clarification.Seeker wrote:If the Hazar Imam is present, wouldnt one expect that the teachings would be crystal clear...and Ismailis would be most clear about their concepts, as compared to other sects/ religions. Why is there so little clarity, as evident on this forum? And this when Ismailis are supposed to use intellect? In the end, we seem to resort to the fix-all excuse that this is a mystical tariqah, and therefore everything is unclear.
I hope we ponder on this.
Also, as in other mystical traditions, there is always the personal element. Though we may share common principles, there is room for personal quest and each one has different perspectives on issues. Therefore you cannot apply the notion of uniform clarity. That will vary depending on each person's progress on the path. And off course one would not expect the Imam to give direction on every detail and hence the need to apply individual intellects.
I think we have more clarity than other tariqahs on our fundamentals.
Thanks for the link. No, this could never happen....The absolute authority of Hazar Imam has been firmly established from the legalistic perspective. You may want to go to the following links to the proceedings of the famous Khoja and Haji Bibi cases which established his absolute authority in the wake of a similar decent by the so called reformers.Seeker wrote: Check out the website in more detail...a group of reformists are unhappy with their leader's control, and want change.
Could this happen to Nizari Ismailis? Very important to consider this.
Anyone has any idea of this issue and how it might impact? How do Nizari Ismailis view Bohras? are Bohras totally misguided?
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/khoj.html
http://www.ismaili.net/hajibibi.html
There has been a discussion about the historical and theological differences between the Nizaris and Bohoras in this forum under:
Current Issues -> Differences in beliefs between Bohoras and Nizaris
You may want to go there.
Dear seeker,
Thank you for the link. It is very interesting. I am not sure what makes you think that Nizaris will have the same problems the Bohoras have. I wish you would clarify.
Check out the website in more detail...a group of reformists are unhappy with their leader's control, and want change[/size].
Do you really think Imam is controlling Ismailis the way Dawoodi Bohoras are being controlled by their dai and his family?
The Dai and his family do not even work. Our Imam works day and night for his community, for the world, etc. So do his children and his brother!
There is not comparison between Nizari Ismaili's leadership and the Bohora leadership. Whether or not Bohoras are totally misguided is not for us to decide.
In short, I think Nizari Ismailis do not have the problems with their leadership the way the Bohoras do.
The differences are:
In Nizari Ismailis, people are allowed to leave their faith without their families being harassed. Bohoras are harassed even on their death beds and the progressives' graves have been desecrated. Has any Nizari ever harassed A.M. or his family? Or desecrated the graves of those who have left the faith?
Nizaris tithe voluntarily and whatever they want to, Bohoras are forced to pay what their Amil demands. They cannot even decide what they should pay. If they do not pay, they are not allowed to participate in religious rites, including Hajj. They do not get their SAfai chitthis.
Nizaris marry outside the faith all the time and they are not forced to convert their spouses. It is totally the opposite with the Bohoras. And male and female non-Bohora spouses are forced to undergo circumcision, including the women before a Nikah would be performed. Huge amounts of monies are extolled from marriages. Do we have to pay for our marriages to outsiders?
Also, unlike the bohoras, we do not have a problem with the accountability of our tithe money. We, and the whole world can see where our money is spent. Those who have a problem, should not pay and are free to give it to wherever they see it proper to give.
I can go on and on. I do not think we, the Nizaris will ever have a progressive movement like the bohoras do,because our Imam is the only one who can change our Tariqah matters and those who do not agree with him, are free to leave without being harassed. Few people have already left, and there are non-Ismailis converting to our faith. This is not unusual.
Virgo2
Thank you for the link. It is very interesting. I am not sure what makes you think that Nizaris will have the same problems the Bohoras have. I wish you would clarify.
Check out the website in more detail...a group of reformists are unhappy with their leader's control, and want change[/size].
Do you really think Imam is controlling Ismailis the way Dawoodi Bohoras are being controlled by their dai and his family?
The Dai and his family do not even work. Our Imam works day and night for his community, for the world, etc. So do his children and his brother!
There is not comparison between Nizari Ismaili's leadership and the Bohora leadership. Whether or not Bohoras are totally misguided is not for us to decide.
In short, I think Nizari Ismailis do not have the problems with their leadership the way the Bohoras do.
The differences are:
In Nizari Ismailis, people are allowed to leave their faith without their families being harassed. Bohoras are harassed even on their death beds and the progressives' graves have been desecrated. Has any Nizari ever harassed A.M. or his family? Or desecrated the graves of those who have left the faith?
Nizaris tithe voluntarily and whatever they want to, Bohoras are forced to pay what their Amil demands. They cannot even decide what they should pay. If they do not pay, they are not allowed to participate in religious rites, including Hajj. They do not get their SAfai chitthis.
Nizaris marry outside the faith all the time and they are not forced to convert their spouses. It is totally the opposite with the Bohoras. And male and female non-Bohora spouses are forced to undergo circumcision, including the women before a Nikah would be performed. Huge amounts of monies are extolled from marriages. Do we have to pay for our marriages to outsiders?
Also, unlike the bohoras, we do not have a problem with the accountability of our tithe money. We, and the whole world can see where our money is spent. Those who have a problem, should not pay and are free to give it to wherever they see it proper to give.
I can go on and on. I do not think we, the Nizaris will ever have a progressive movement like the bohoras do,because our Imam is the only one who can change our Tariqah matters and those who do not agree with him, are free to leave without being harassed. Few people have already left, and there are non-Ismailis converting to our faith. This is not unusual.
Virgo2
To add to what Virgo2 said..Virgo2 wrote:Dear seeker,
Thank you for the link. It is very interesting. I am not sure what makes you think that Nizaris will have the same problems the Bohoras have. I wish you would clarify.
Check out the website in more detail...a group of reformists are unhappy with their leader's control, and want change[/size].
Do you really think Imam is controlling Ismailis the way Dawoodi Bohoras are being controlled by their dai and his family?
The Dai and his family do not even work. Our Imam works day and night for his community, for the world, etc. So do his children and his brother!
There is not comparison between Nizari Ismaili's leadership and the Bohora leadership. Whether or not Bohoras are totally misguided is not for us to decide.
In short, I think Nizari Ismailis do not have the problems with their leadership the way the Bohoras do.
The differences are:
In Nizari Ismailis, people are allowed to leave their faith without their families being harassed. Bohoras are harassed even on their death beds and the progressives' graves have been desecrated. Has any Nizari ever harassed A.M. or his family? Or desecrated the graves of those who have left the faith?
Nizaris tithe voluntarily and whatever they want to, Bohoras are forced to pay what their Amil demands. They cannot even decide what they should pay. If they do not pay, they are not allowed to participate in religious rites, including Hajj. They do not get their SAfai chitthis.
Nizaris marry outside the faith all the time and they are not forced to convert their spouses. It is totally the opposite with the Bohoras. And male and female non-Bohora spouses are forced to undergo circumcision, including the women before a Nikah would be performed. Huge amounts of monies are extolled from marriages. Do we have to pay for our marriages to outsiders?
Also, unlike the bohoras, we do not have a problem with the accountability of our tithe money. We, and the whole world can see where our money is spent. Those who have a problem, should not pay and are free to give it to wherever they see it proper to give.
I can go on and on. I do not think we, the Nizaris will ever have a progressive movement like the bohoras do,because our Imam is the only one who can change our Tariqah matters and those who do not agree with him, are free to leave without being harassed. Few people have already left, and there are non-Ismailis converting to our faith. This is not unusual.
Virgo2
MSMS has said.."this is our faith..you can either choose to remain within it and follow it..or you can leave..."
and MHI has said "this is a faith of Conviction..not one of convienence"....
Shams