Dear friends,
I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue:
"Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?"
It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if one falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how one converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite?
Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"
A: Yes I approve of it
B: It is okay only if the girl converts to Ismailism
C: It is okay only if the kids follow Ismailism in future
D: No it is absolutely unacceptable
Regards,
Saadi
Marriages
more opinions plz
Hello friendz,
I haven't recieved many replies to my question about messages, plz send in yr opinions.
For Lakania,
U haven't mentioned in what circumstances do u approve of it, (A,B,C,D) PLease elaborate,
Regards,
Saadi
I haven't recieved many replies to my question about messages, plz send in yr opinions.
For Lakania,
U haven't mentioned in what circumstances do u approve of it, (A,B,C,D) PLease elaborate,
Regards,
Saadi
nonismaili marriages
What you are asking is
Should a haqiqati marry a shariati?
If the haqiqati is a true Haqiqati then this question would not arise.
To be a Haqiqati Ismaili one has to follow the Farmans of Imame Mubeen.
Where in the Farmans has our Mowla asked us to marry sunni's.
Please understand that I have personally lived this Hell.
I was married to a christian girl for 10 years and ultimately she fell for another christian man which led to divorce. My son is Ismaili but due to strict court ordered custody arrangements sometimes he misses Mandali Majalises.
Imam Sultam Mohamedshah has made a Farman "Momin potana baccha ne bedin loko thi dur rakhe cche"
Which means that a Momin of Imam keeps his kids away from "bedin" people.
I have already made the mistake of having a child with a bedin woman. what do I do to rectify this. The laws of the land make it extremely unlikely for me to have exclusive custody of my son.
After that marriage I was living in a remote part of Texas where I could only come to Jamatkhana once a week when all my life I had gone to Jamatkhana every single day.
Can you Imagine the torture I subjected my soul to during that time period of almost 2 years.
Then there is the question of dasond. You have no idea how painful giving dasond is for non-ismailies.
They judge the Imam physically and cannot understand why we give dasond to such a wealthy "man".
One thing is for sure, it was the hardest lesson I have learned in my life.
Whatever happens try to learn your lesson as soon as possible and use the words of our beloved Imam to guide you and you will be absolutely safe.
wish you all the best
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
Should a haqiqati marry a shariati?
If the haqiqati is a true Haqiqati then this question would not arise.
To be a Haqiqati Ismaili one has to follow the Farmans of Imame Mubeen.
Where in the Farmans has our Mowla asked us to marry sunni's.
Please understand that I have personally lived this Hell.
I was married to a christian girl for 10 years and ultimately she fell for another christian man which led to divorce. My son is Ismaili but due to strict court ordered custody arrangements sometimes he misses Mandali Majalises.
Imam Sultam Mohamedshah has made a Farman "Momin potana baccha ne bedin loko thi dur rakhe cche"
Which means that a Momin of Imam keeps his kids away from "bedin" people.
I have already made the mistake of having a child with a bedin woman. what do I do to rectify this. The laws of the land make it extremely unlikely for me to have exclusive custody of my son.
After that marriage I was living in a remote part of Texas where I could only come to Jamatkhana once a week when all my life I had gone to Jamatkhana every single day.
Can you Imagine the torture I subjected my soul to during that time period of almost 2 years.
Then there is the question of dasond. You have no idea how painful giving dasond is for non-ismailies.
They judge the Imam physically and cannot understand why we give dasond to such a wealthy "man".
One thing is for sure, it was the hardest lesson I have learned in my life.
Whatever happens try to learn your lesson as soon as possible and use the words of our beloved Imam to guide you and you will be absolutely safe.
wish you all the best
Ya Aly Madad
Shams
Dear Shamsu,
I am sorry to learn abt the hell u had to go through. It must have been really painful...
However I am inclined to ask how u made the decision in the first place? I mean did u two talk abt the religious difference? Did she agreed to convert???
U are right about none of the Farmans guiding us to marry sunnis but what I am asking is that if a situation arises. for e.g one falls for a person of another sect, is it okay to tie the knot. I mean in the Noorani family we see examples of marriages outside the circle of Islam??
Also kindly define Shariati??
Regards,
Saadi
I am sorry to learn abt the hell u had to go through. It must have been really painful...
However I am inclined to ask how u made the decision in the first place? I mean did u two talk abt the religious difference? Did she agreed to convert???
U are right about none of the Farmans guiding us to marry sunnis but what I am asking is that if a situation arises. for e.g one falls for a person of another sect, is it okay to tie the knot. I mean in the Noorani family we see examples of marriages outside the circle of Islam??
Also kindly define Shariati??
Regards,
Saadi
-
Guest
outcast marriage
Shariati is someone who practices his faith with his physical body
tariqati with his mind
haqiqati with his heart where he has Mowla bapa at all times
What do you plan on doing if your wife refuses to convert?
most intercaste marriages end in divorce when the spouse doesn't convert to Ismailism.
In light of this fact what are your plans for after the divorce about children and such?
Prepare a prenuptial agreement for practice and your eyes will open wide.
People say Love is Blind but I am a living example of love being deaf and stupid too. Jamati Mukhisaheb asked me not to marry in Church but to keep my ex-wife happy I did nafarmani of my Mowla.
Pir says in Ginan "Ishk aql bhulaya" And I can swear to that being true.
NOORANI FAMILY:
It is ignorance that makes you compare yourself to Noorani Family. When ever people live and identify themselves with the physical body they misunderstand Ahl Al-Bayat.
First lets do shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat and then when we reach marifat we can talk about the family. Since talking without recognizing who we are talking about can lead to mistakes.
Let me tell you the thought that scared the life out of me. Once the denial was over I was afraid about what am I going to answer on the Day of Judgement for not listening to mukhi saheb and hurting the feelings of 100's of people.
Inspite of my foolishness more than 700 people came to the wedding including the Mukhisaheb whom I disobeyed. Every single friend advised me against this step which I took in "Love" but remember Pir says "Aash to ek alakh ni kijae Awar sarve aash niraash" and that is the purest truth we dont get into our thick skulls due to our ongoing enslavement to our desires and minds that have limited human intelligence. The pride caused from ignorance is what gets us every time. Everyone that came to my wedding had a heavy heart and knew I was making a grave mistake but I was oblivious to the obvious very much like you.
It is important to understand that things happen for a reason and the sooner we learn the lesson the better for each of us. What is the lesson-- look at the ginan kadi in the previous paragraph.
tariqati with his mind
haqiqati with his heart where he has Mowla bapa at all times
What do you plan on doing if your wife refuses to convert?
most intercaste marriages end in divorce when the spouse doesn't convert to Ismailism.
In light of this fact what are your plans for after the divorce about children and such?
Prepare a prenuptial agreement for practice and your eyes will open wide.
People say Love is Blind but I am a living example of love being deaf and stupid too. Jamati Mukhisaheb asked me not to marry in Church but to keep my ex-wife happy I did nafarmani of my Mowla.
Pir says in Ginan "Ishk aql bhulaya" And I can swear to that being true.
NOORANI FAMILY:
It is ignorance that makes you compare yourself to Noorani Family. When ever people live and identify themselves with the physical body they misunderstand Ahl Al-Bayat.
First lets do shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat and then when we reach marifat we can talk about the family. Since talking without recognizing who we are talking about can lead to mistakes.
Let me tell you the thought that scared the life out of me. Once the denial was over I was afraid about what am I going to answer on the Day of Judgement for not listening to mukhi saheb and hurting the feelings of 100's of people.
Inspite of my foolishness more than 700 people came to the wedding including the Mukhisaheb whom I disobeyed. Every single friend advised me against this step which I took in "Love" but remember Pir says "Aash to ek alakh ni kijae Awar sarve aash niraash" and that is the purest truth we dont get into our thick skulls due to our ongoing enslavement to our desires and minds that have limited human intelligence. The pride caused from ignorance is what gets us every time. Everyone that came to my wedding had a heavy heart and knew I was making a grave mistake but I was oblivious to the obvious very much like you.
It is important to understand that things happen for a reason and the sooner we learn the lesson the better for each of us. What is the lesson-- look at the ginan kadi in the previous paragraph.
...........
So do you believe there is no difference at all, between a non-muslim and a muslim of another sect (non-ismaili muslim) ???
I am inclined to ask this because you make casual references to your marriage to the christian lady. Afterall, when we identify our religion, we claim to be muslims first and then if probed further, we may reveal to be Aga khanis. Now is that a latent identity??
Similarly I have spoken to representatives of sooo many sects. If we take a holistic view, are the differences really that big?
I mean literally the word Wahabi means someone who believes in the unity of Allah, Sunni means Someone who follows the Sunnat (life style and mannerism) of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). and a Shia will be literally somebody who keeps Hazrat Ali as a friend. So is Iman really complete without these three beliefs??
Noorani Family:
I do understand the concept of marifat, but what I am confused about is whether the non-muslims who enter the Ahl Al-Bayat circle have reached marifat. Have they done shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat ???
Regards,
Saadi
I am inclined to ask this because you make casual references to your marriage to the christian lady. Afterall, when we identify our religion, we claim to be muslims first and then if probed further, we may reveal to be Aga khanis. Now is that a latent identity??
Similarly I have spoken to representatives of sooo many sects. If we take a holistic view, are the differences really that big?
I mean literally the word Wahabi means someone who believes in the unity of Allah, Sunni means Someone who follows the Sunnat (life style and mannerism) of the Holy Prophet Mohammad (PBUH). and a Shia will be literally somebody who keeps Hazrat Ali as a friend. So is Iman really complete without these three beliefs??
Noorani Family:
I do understand the concept of marifat, but what I am confused about is whether the non-muslims who enter the Ahl Al-Bayat circle have reached marifat. Have they done shariat, then tariqat then haqiqat ???
Regards,
Saadi
I don't know what to say.
I think you will be guided best by the farmans of your Imam. Look up the Farmans on marriage and in Mowla bapa's interviews and speeches.
I started thinking what is the purpose of my life?
what is my goal in life?
why has Mowla sent me to this globe?
When u think of Important questions like these, your path becomes clear.
If you love a sunni girl then there is a lesson in that which u should not miss.
As far as Muslim the definition of that is someone who has already submitted to will of Allah.
How will you know what the will of Allah is today 7/21/2003.
The Imams farmans will tell you as stated in the second part of dua Obey Allah, his apostle and the authority holder of the AMR from amongst you.
I dont believe the common translation which translates amr into the word of the rulers over you.
Amr of Allah is the soul as per the Quran.
Ullil Amr - who is that at this moment?
When you answer that correctly you will know if non-muslim and non ismaili muslim is any different or not.
I started thinking what is the purpose of my life?
what is my goal in life?
why has Mowla sent me to this globe?
When u think of Important questions like these, your path becomes clear.
If you love a sunni girl then there is a lesson in that which u should not miss.
As far as Muslim the definition of that is someone who has already submitted to will of Allah.
How will you know what the will of Allah is today 7/21/2003.
The Imams farmans will tell you as stated in the second part of dua Obey Allah, his apostle and the authority holder of the AMR from amongst you.
I dont believe the common translation which translates amr into the word of the rulers over you.
Amr of Allah is the soul as per the Quran.
Ullil Amr - who is that at this moment?
When you answer that correctly you will know if non-muslim and non ismaili muslim is any different or not.
-
AceofHearts
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:01 am
Why is marrying in church nafarmani? What does Hazar Imam say in his farmans?
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, isn't it better to marry in for instance church, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
And if we do fall in love with a non-Ismaili, which is not even that unlikely if you are living in a country with very few Ismaili's, isn't it better to marry in for instance church, if you cannot marry in Jamatkhana? At least then you are married in the eyes of God.
-
Guest
regarding marrying person outside ambit of ismaili shias is altogether not correct but 90% of such cases take place when some when falls in love with person of some other sect. Person who love other then ismaili , altough knows it it is not correct but cant help it b/c of lack of iman (and love is blind )so they think every thing will going to be f9 after marriage but in most of the cases its not true .to think to convert person after having marriage is not possibleif he/ she do accept it it will not accept it by its heart and soul .How can u say tht person ur converting have faith and iman o­n hazar imam altough u dont have it , otherwise u havnt married with non ismaili.(problem of chidren, family non acceptance and many other things o­ne has to consider b/f doing this)<BR><BR>concept of other muslim sects in this regard that u can marry " al-e Kitab" . followers having following those person which r followers of person o­n which god has blessed his books tht exclude eg hindus
-
Guest
Dear guest,
Found it a bit difficult to read and understand your reply. I now, however, understand why a wedding between an Ismaili and a non-Ismaili cannot take place in Jamatkhana. For the very simple reason that a non-Ismaili does not believe in Hazar Imam and therefore cannot marry in Jamatkhana.
As far as marrying in church, even though you might believe it wrong to marry non-Ismaili's and are convinced that such unions should not take place, they do take place. So, therefore is it better to marry in church or just sign a little paper at city hall?
YAM
Found it a bit difficult to read and understand your reply. I now, however, understand why a wedding between an Ismaili and a non-Ismaili cannot take place in Jamatkhana. For the very simple reason that a non-Ismaili does not believe in Hazar Imam and therefore cannot marry in Jamatkhana.
As far as marrying in church, even though you might believe it wrong to marry non-Ismaili's and are convinced that such unions should not take place, they do take place. So, therefore is it better to marry in church or just sign a little paper at city hall?
YAM
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
-
Guest
In Ismailism, marriage is a civil contract. Of course there are blessings given but it still remain a contract.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
There is no religious requirement, therefore a marriage is allowed between an Ismaili and a non-ismaili.
This has been confirmed in the Memoirs of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah as well in several interview of Hazar Imam.
"There is another difference between us and the West that causes trouble. Take the case of marriage. You may be surprised that I mention this, but it is a problem. In our Faith, the element of Puritanism does not influence what a man can do in his private life. For a Muslim, a marriage is not a sacrament. It is a contract between two human beings, and although they will pray and seek the blessing of God, they are not pushed out of their Church if they separate. In Western society, from what I've been able to tell, living here the fact that divorce is a sin, against God, causes tremendous heartburning. With us, there is not so much worry, all the time, whether one's relationship with one's wife should be dominated by religious or personal feelings."
December 12, 1965
SUNDAY TIMES - WEEKLY REVIEW
THE RULER WITHOUT A KINGDOM :
http://ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html
December 12, 1965
SUNDAY TIMES - WEEKLY REVIEW
THE RULER WITHOUT A KINGDOM :
http://ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html
-
Guest
This is a quote on the same subject from the French interview "as is", no censured or interpreted words.
If you want to read an English translation, you'll find one at:
http://www.ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcmain.html
=======================================
LBC: Et c'est pour cela que vous avez deux mariages? Le mariage civil et le mariage religieux?
AK: Non, non, non. Ça c'est une forme mais en fait le mariage n'est pas un sacrement en Islam. C'est un rapport contractuel entre un homme et une femme.
LBC: Justement. Mais c'est parce que vous êtes en Europe que vous faites cela?
AK: Non, parce qu’il est devenu une tradition même dans les communautés musulmanes non ismailies qu’on demande la bénédiction sur le mariage etc.
If you want to read an English translation, you'll find one at:
http://www.ismaili.net/Syria/interview/lbcmain.html
=======================================
LBC: Et c'est pour cela que vous avez deux mariages? Le mariage civil et le mariage religieux?
AK: Non, non, non. Ça c'est une forme mais en fait le mariage n'est pas un sacrement en Islam. C'est un rapport contractuel entre un homme et une femme.
LBC: Justement. Mais c'est parce que vous êtes en Europe que vous faites cela?
AK: Non, parce qu’il est devenu une tradition même dans les communautés musulmanes non ismailies qu’on demande la bénédiction sur le mariage etc.
Ismailism does not prohibit intercast marriage, and neither does it encourage it.
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
Children of inter-cast marriage should not be subjected to the torment of deciding as to which relegion do they actually belong to. At the same time, parents of intercast marriage should ensure that irrespective of whatever religion they choose for their kids, the kids are infact given a proper and sound understanding of the purpose and practice of their adopted relegion. What is important here is for the parents to make an informed and a rational decision on behalf of their children.
Islam does not question the legitimacy of other monothiastic faiths like Christianity or Judaism. In fact the follower of Islam and Ismailsm are required to consider and treat people of other faiths as their equals.
God does not accquire any benefit from choices that human beings make with regards to what relegion they choose to practice. On the contrary, it is the other way around. Human beings should ensure that whatever relegion they choose to practice, should be one which is the most complete, practical and intellectually appealing.
God is not dependent on us. It is we who are dependent on Him.
On the contrary, the decision to marry, whether within the Ismaili community or outside it, is in fact a matter of personal choic( or cultural or family preference). What is important however, is for both the Ismaili and Non-Ismaili spouse to decide as to which or whose relegion should their children owe allegiance to.
Children of inter-cast marriage should not be subjected to the torment of deciding as to which relegion do they actually belong to. At the same time, parents of intercast marriage should ensure that irrespective of whatever religion they choose for their kids, the kids are infact given a proper and sound understanding of the purpose and practice of their adopted relegion. What is important here is for the parents to make an informed and a rational decision on behalf of their children.
Islam does not question the legitimacy of other monothiastic faiths like Christianity or Judaism. In fact the follower of Islam and Ismailsm are required to consider and treat people of other faiths as their equals.
God does not accquire any benefit from choices that human beings make with regards to what relegion they choose to practice. On the contrary, it is the other way around. Human beings should ensure that whatever relegion they choose to practice, should be one which is the most complete, practical and intellectually appealing.
God is not dependent on us. It is we who are dependent on Him.
-
noorani_786
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:05 am
- Location: Tx
I completely agree with nagib : in Ismailim, or in Islam I should say, Marriage is a contract between two person's and not a religious contract. Bearing that in mind, I think marrying a non-muslim is in no way going against your faith. Now that religion is out of the question, I do believe marrying a non-muslim, will make a already complicated life even more complicated. I am sure very challenging, sensitive and thought-provoking issues will crop up that will make you question your beliefs and cause dicussions, which will lead into arguments causing heart-aches. But then doesn't a man go through such an ordeal whenever he crosses any unknow territory? Ofcourse he does. So should man remain o­nly within the realms of what he knows and what he "thinks" is right. Ofcourse not. It is by going into unknown territories that we learn more about who we truly are. Am I am sure shams will agree with me that although he went through much pain he came out a man who was more mature and with more knowledge and wisdom about life. But then if he were go back would he go through the same experience again knowing he will learn what he has learned? Ofcourse not. lol. So, in my opnioun I don't think the learning and wisdom gained at the end is worth the pain and heart-ache. But then I am not the o­ne who's in love. So what do i know. So, to summarize, o­nly you can make the decision. But it is definelty not plain-o "wrong" to marry a non-muslim. That much I can say.
I think this is just nuts!!!
Ok, Lets agree on one thing first. That is as a Muslim you belive everything is God's creation. Also, now take your blinders off and see. That without Christ there is no Mohammed, without Abraham there is no Christ!; So if someone tells you who to marry or not, is just foolish.
Last edited by unnalhaq on Thu Mar 10, 2005 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Marriages
Marry whom ever you desire. Don't let Khoja bigotry rule your life. I have noticed that Khojas in everyday lives have a certain attitude towards other raises specially even whites I have on occasions replied to them as “...so, don't bother showing up at darbar/deedar time because it might shocked them...the Imam is white!" Saadi Dear friends, I'd like to know your opinion regarding the following issue: "Do you believe it is okay for an Ismaili to marry a Non-Ismaili?" <BR><BR>It is not very common for Ismailis to marry outside the community yet what if o­ne falls for a person outside the community? As I was going through some other forums, many of us are not even clear about how o­ne converts to Ismailism, also if we are not ready to give up our faith then I think its not justified to expect it from the others. So in your opinion is it okay to marry outside the community (to a muslim of another sect), after all we are all Muslims, rite? <BR><BR>Let me present a situtation: "Is it okay for an Ismaili guy to marry a Sunni Girl?"<BR>A: Yes I approve of it <BR>B: It is okay o­nly if the girl converts to Ismailism <BR>C: It is okay o­nly if the kids follow Ismailism in future<BR>D: No it is absolutely unacceptable<BR><BR>Regards,<BR>Saadi[/quote]
Last edited by unnalhaq on Wed Jan 12, 2005 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah on Marriage
The following is an extract from "Memoirs" on the concept of marriage in Ismailism.
Much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives nowadays is purely social, and is concerned with the proper contractual arrangement of matters such as marriage and divorce. On the subject I should perhaps say that nowhere in the world where Ismailis are now settled is there any persecution of them or interference with their faith and customs, except if and when the general laws of the country are contrary to institutions, such as plurality of wives. It is generally overlooked that among Ismailis no one can take a second wife or divorce his first wife for a whim or-as is sometimes falsely imagined in the West-some frivolous or erratic pretext. There are usually, to our way of thinking, some very good reasons for either action. To beget children is a very proper need and desire in every marriage; if after many years of married life there is still no issue, often a wife herself longs to see her home brightened by the presence of children with all the laughter, hope, joy and deep contentment that they bring with them. In other instances there is so profound a difference of character that a divorce is found to be the best solution for the happiness of both parties. But in every case whether a second wife is taken or a divorce is granted-the various councils or (where there are no councils) the representatives of the Imam have an absolute duty to safeguard the interests of the wife; if a second wife is taken, it is a matter of seeing that full financial protection is assured to the first wife, or if there is a divorce, of seeing that there is a generous, adequate and seemly monetary settlement. It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
Much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives nowadays is purely social, and is concerned with the proper contractual arrangement of matters such as marriage and divorce. On the subject I should perhaps say that nowhere in the world where Ismailis are now settled is there any persecution of them or interference with their faith and customs, except if and when the general laws of the country are contrary to institutions, such as plurality of wives. It is generally overlooked that among Ismailis no one can take a second wife or divorce his first wife for a whim or-as is sometimes falsely imagined in the West-some frivolous or erratic pretext. There are usually, to our way of thinking, some very good reasons for either action. To beget children is a very proper need and desire in every marriage; if after many years of married life there is still no issue, often a wife herself longs to see her home brightened by the presence of children with all the laughter, hope, joy and deep contentment that they bring with them. In other instances there is so profound a difference of character that a divorce is found to be the best solution for the happiness of both parties. But in every case whether a second wife is taken or a divorce is granted-the various councils or (where there are no councils) the representatives of the Imam have an absolute duty to safeguard the interests of the wife; if a second wife is taken, it is a matter of seeing that full financial protection is assured to the first wife, or if there is a divorce, of seeing that there is a generous, adequate and seemly monetary settlement. It is important that it should be realized among non-Muslims that the Islamic view of the institution of marriage-and of all that relates to it, divorce, plurality of wives and so on-is a question solely of contract, of consent and of definite and mutually accepted responsibilities. The sacramental concept of marriage is not Islam's; therefore except indirectly there is no question of its religious significance, and there is no religious ceremony to invest it with the solemnity and the symbolism which appertain to marriage in other religions like Christianity and Hinduism. It is exactly analogous to-in the West -an entirely civil and secular marriage in a registry office or before a judge. Prayers of course can be offered-prayers for happiness, prosperity and good health-but there can be no religious ritual beyond these, and they indeed are solely a matter of personal choice. There is therefore no kind of marriage in Islam, or among the Ismailis, except the marriage of mutual consent and mutual understanding. And as I have indicated, much of the work of the Ismaili councils and of the Imam's representatives in all our Ismaili communities is to see that marriages are properly registered and to ensure that divorce, though not a sin, is so executed that the interests of neither party suffer from it, that as much protection as possible is given to women, and most of all, that the maintenance of young children is safeguarded.
I totally think then there is no need for religion. If it is not necessary for you to teach your child and bring him up in the same religion as yours then there is no religion. All of you probably have parents who are both ismailis. So there is no sin if you dont pass your religion to your child. Now suppose my partner is an ahtheist. Drinks, eats pork doesnt believe in god. I knew all this before marriage. Now she tells the child her side of the story, I tell the child mine. So then the child is free from sin and has a choice to believe in god or not. Then how can god blame him for not believing in god. So then there is no one religion which is right, drinking and eating pork can be made right, we can change watever we want. God doesnt exist and we are on a free ride over here. Now if you say that everyone is questionable for their ownselves, comon be realistic you live in this world, why are the parents of the child responsible for all what he does. And it is proven by science that what a parent does there is a 90% chance the child will follow that. And so the parent should be blamed for putting the child in that situation or shouldnt he/she. So basically Mowla is saying its all fine. I think its all contradicting. If this would have been happening along time ago ismailism would have vanished from the planet. I have seen hardly any ismailis or know any ismaili from the last generation who married a non-ismaili. But now from our generation its every one......everyone wants to marry a non-ismaili. I think its just a trend.
Statistics on Inter-marriage
Different faiths no barrier to marriage
CanWest News Service
Monday, December 27, 2004
Religion is no longer the issue it once was for couples considering marriage.
The Association for Canadian Studies in Montreal says a survey conducted this year by the Department of Heritage "pointed to significant openness on the part of the majority of Canadians to marry across religious, ethnic and language lines."
"Religion is far less of an obstacle than it would have been two or three decades ago," said Jack Jedwab, the association's executive director.
Statistics Canada results released recently showed almost six in 10 Catholics and Protestants tended to marry within their own faiths, while almost seven in 10 Jews married outside of their faith.
Among Muslims, Buddhists and members of other non-Christian faiths, almost eight of 10 married others who are part of non-Christian minorities.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
CanWest News Service
Monday, December 27, 2004
Religion is no longer the issue it once was for couples considering marriage.
The Association for Canadian Studies in Montreal says a survey conducted this year by the Department of Heritage "pointed to significant openness on the part of the majority of Canadians to marry across religious, ethnic and language lines."
"Religion is far less of an obstacle than it would have been two or three decades ago," said Jack Jedwab, the association's executive director.
Statistics Canada results released recently showed almost six in 10 Catholics and Protestants tended to marry within their own faiths, while almost seven in 10 Jews married outside of their faith.
Among Muslims, Buddhists and members of other non-Christian faiths, almost eight of 10 married others who are part of non-Christian minorities.
© The Calgary Herald 2004
YAM,
I was married to an Ismaili, who's father was Allijah, Brother was Mukhi and his Brother In Law was a Tribunal Council Member. Ha has 4 degrees from different Universities. The proposal was from Heaven, for my mum. The marriage lasted 2 yrs. He was Abusive, Controlling, committed adultery and couldn't keep a job for more then a yr.
Now, I am married to A Christian, Catholic. We've been in the relationship for more then 5 yrs. He respects me, my family, my faith and above all, he adores Mowla Bapa. He loves his Parents and loves his religion too. He won't convert as he has been brought up in his faith and has been following it for 30 yrs, just like me. This would hurt his family. All religions teach us not to hurt our parents.
The point is, people make religious differences, religions don't make people different. If you look at the Spiritual meaning of all man made religions, it is all same. Be good to yourself and others. Believe in God, Allah. Every religion teaches us not judge others, that's God's Job.
Talk with your partner and discuss things about each other's faith in open. Make decisions before hand that could affect not only you but your family, who has been there longer then your relationship. And above all, respect and love each other as Mowla says. Maintain Unity. Build bridges and spread love.
I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone. Ya Ali Madad
I was married to an Ismaili, who's father was Allijah, Brother was Mukhi and his Brother In Law was a Tribunal Council Member. Ha has 4 degrees from different Universities. The proposal was from Heaven, for my mum. The marriage lasted 2 yrs. He was Abusive, Controlling, committed adultery and couldn't keep a job for more then a yr.
Now, I am married to A Christian, Catholic. We've been in the relationship for more then 5 yrs. He respects me, my family, my faith and above all, he adores Mowla Bapa. He loves his Parents and loves his religion too. He won't convert as he has been brought up in his faith and has been following it for 30 yrs, just like me. This would hurt his family. All religions teach us not to hurt our parents.
The point is, people make religious differences, religions don't make people different. If you look at the Spiritual meaning of all man made religions, it is all same. Be good to yourself and others. Believe in God, Allah. Every religion teaches us not judge others, that's God's Job.
Talk with your partner and discuss things about each other's faith in open. Make decisions before hand that could affect not only you but your family, who has been there longer then your relationship. And above all, respect and love each other as Mowla says. Maintain Unity. Build bridges and spread love.
I apologize in advance if I have offended anyone. Ya Ali Madad
Last edited by Visitor on Thu Dec 30, 2004 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Intermarriage - Visitors Experience
Interesting experience Visitor! I am wondering whether you have any children and how you plan on raising them. Did you make any pre-nuptial agreement on this?
YAM kmaherali,
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
An enlightened and mature way of looking at the situation...Visitor wrote:YAM kmaherali,
No, we don't have children yet. Inshallah when we do, they will be baptised as Catholic Christians. They will be exposed to Ismailism too. My husband or myself have no problems explaining the differences and the benefits of having Faith and believing in God, Allah. When they are at a mature age they will choose the religion they want to follow.
We've discussed this with both sides of the family. My parents and other family members are ok with what we've chosen. The simple reason being, they will be exposed to both sides of religion.
I would like my kids to be exposed to all different religions so that they can appreciate more Ismailism as we do believe all religions lead to one - Ismaili Muslim. We believe in Adam, Noah, Ibrahim, Moses, Jesus, Muhamad (Salwat) and many more ... as our Holy Prophets.
My personal view is that so long as the basic ethical principles which are shared between all faiths, are instilled and nurtured in an environment of tolerance, respect and love then the child will be led to choose the right path for him/herself. A faith that is based upon personal search is more likely to endure as opposed to one that is "drummed in" so to speak.
The following statement of MHI expresses the common ethos of Abrahamic tradition to nurture each life to it's full potential.
"The shared destiny of the ethos of the Abrahamic tradition that unites Christians, Jews and Muslims is governed by the duty of loving care to help nurture each life that is born to its God-given potential". [Houston Speech 2002]
Last edited by kmaherali on Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
What do I think is that one can not be ismaili and nonismaili at the same time.
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?
One can not follow Islam and Christanity both religions and follow the both at same time as both are different from each other. Thats true Muslims as well as chirstians both believe Jesus but the concept is totally different.
Its not possible that a child recite Dua and Ginan in Jk than on Sunday go to Church for worship.
If you are thinking that child will have freedom to have any religion than this will confuse the child as he or she will not be mature enough to select it and if you think when child will mature than he or she will accept any religion so what before that? Will he or she without any religion till that period of time?
YAM Munir,
Obviously an ideal situation would be that there should not be inter marriages. However that is not the reality. As demonstrated in this case a relationship between the two Ismailis did not work out and the female decided to get married to a non Ismaili. So how to deal with situations like that? Should they not have children at all?
On the other hand we have Ismaili children who are raised in relationships without love and a great deal of tension between parents. Consequently they are not exposed to correct practice of faith. Is that better?
In this particular case a child will be initiated into one faith but will have an exposure and understanding of both and will be allowed to decide for him/herself which to choose as an adult. In the meantime she will be instilled with common ethical principles predicated upon dasond (or tithe). In my opinion if it works, then it would be an ideal way to instil pluralism in a new generation. That is, the ability to think across faiths.
Obviously an ideal situation would be that there should not be inter marriages. However that is not the reality. As demonstrated in this case a relationship between the two Ismailis did not work out and the female decided to get married to a non Ismaili. So how to deal with situations like that? Should they not have children at all?
On the other hand we have Ismaili children who are raised in relationships without love and a great deal of tension between parents. Consequently they are not exposed to correct practice of faith. Is that better?
In this particular case a child will be initiated into one faith but will have an exposure and understanding of both and will be allowed to decide for him/herself which to choose as an adult. In the meantime she will be instilled with common ethical principles predicated upon dasond (or tithe). In my opinion if it works, then it would be an ideal way to instil pluralism in a new generation. That is, the ability to think across faiths.