Different Views on Ismailism

s786 · Post by **s786** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:02 pm

In the "Ismaili Bashing" ShamsB brought to my attention the different views on Ismailism. Such as the "Arab Ismailis" or the "Sathpanthi Khoja Ismailis" etc ,etc...

What got my attention was that there are Arab Ismailis ("Islam started in Saudi Arabia) that don't accept the Imam as Allah (Mazhar of Allah?) or Ali as Allah, etc.

While reading this forum, not once did anyone mention that most of these notions, opinions, statements are that of a "Satpanthi Khojo", I was truly unaware of the differences.

Initially, when I came on this forum, I too was under the impression that Ginans were tools for converting the Hindus, etc, etc... as is the gatpath and so on and so forth, hence the Hindu references in them. Now after hearing that the Arab Ismailis feel the same, I am back to where I started. I accept that Ginans were also a tool for conversion.

However, the notion of the Imam being God or the Mazhar of Allah, is one I accept (thank you for explaining this to me). For some reason, Ginans are real hard for me to digest. I mean let us face it, we make all of these ginanic references to prove the authenticity of the Imam (not that I am doubting it, but I am just saying), but never think that obviously the Pirs and authors of the Ginans are not going to go against the Imam. Similarily those who supported the Ithna Ashri Imams and however many other Imams there were... we claim that they were "fakes" or "masking the identity of the real Imams", but I am sure their followers have references that show them as being authentic... so does that mean we should follow them as well?... okay anyway, before we get into another spur of the authenticity of the Imam, let me get to the point.

The Ginans could have very well been tools for converting Hindus to being Ismailis, afterall, Khojas are amongst the most common or the majority of our population today. So, why not?... Besides I don't believe there needs to be references to Hindu Gods or Hinduism in order for us to understand our religion --> this would only be needed to convince a Hindu to convert to Islam/Ismailism.

The base of my argument is, is it wrong to say that our Arab Ismaili brothers and sisters are wrong to not accept the Ginans?... If not Ginans, then what do they recite?... Qasidas? - how do Qasidas compare to Ginans?

I have a 100 more questions to ask, but if someone could answer the above, I would appreciate it.

Thanks!

S786

s786 · Post by **s786** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 9:05 pm

I just don't see how "Arab Ismailis" whose ancestors were amongst the first followers of the Imam and amongst the first Ismailis, could be wrong... it just doesn't make sense that a person whose ancestors were converts is saying that an original is not right.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:39 pm

s786 wrote:I just don't see how "Arab Ismailis" whose ancestors were amongst the first followers of the Imam and amongst the first Ismailis, could be wrong... it just doesn't make sense that a person whose ancestors were converts is saying that an original is not right.

Go study Ismailism from the roots...go study the practises of the Prophet and Ali..and you will find that what the khojas practise is from the "original Ismailism"..

in terms of ginans..there are many many farmans of MSMS and I beleive MHI has also made farmans ..
MSMS said ginans are the missing 10 paras of the Quran

in other terms..bring me all 500 verses of Anant Akhado..and I will find 500 matching verses in the Quran for you.

Das Avtar..is in the Quran....

for someone that claims to be ismailies..we have a lot of intolerance for other traditions with the ismaili faith..and we speak of pluralism and diversity within the Greater Ummah and other faiths

charity begins at home...
let us first tolerate and respect other traditions...

as for Arab Ismailies..i don't think there are any original descendants of the first converts left...they all migrated with the imam to persia and india..
my statement to the arab ismailies was meant towards those ismailies..that were brought up in the arab islam enviroment..ie. pakistan, Dubai..where freedom of expression is limited..freedom to practise religgion is limited..thus alteration of practise of ismailism is necessary for survival...

go read the ginans in depth..and you will find a treasure trove of not only religious knowledge but scientific knowledge..

you will be surprised to learn that copernicus and kepler weren't the first the come up with the sun as the center of the solar system....
or the big bang theory...

ISLAM ISN'T A FAITH TIED TO THE ARAB PENINSULA...THAT ONLY THE ARABS CAN CLAIM TO PRACTISE TRUE ISLAM OR ISMAILISM...

ISLAM IS A UNIVERSAL FAITH..OPEN TO ALL

Shams

razinizar · Post by **razinizar** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:44 am

Islam and Ismailies goes along with the mind of ppl who live in that particular century or time.

for Example
Prophet (P.B.U.H) told every one that in Paradise there will be Big Oceans, Date's tree etc and in Hell there will be Fire..... Just Visualize this ... He Knows the real reality in the Paradise but to make Other People Understand, he kept the reality Secret, thu all the Aspect has 2 faces.. One is Physical and 2nd is Spritualism. He Gave with Message of a GOD to the PPL According to the time.
Thats What Pirs did
When Pirs Went to India ... 1st they Study, Indian Cultures and According to there Minds of ppl in INDIA ... PIRs sang GINANs and in these GINAN, whatever pir Said, is just to make those Ppl understand ISLAM and Ismailies for that particular time

Now the Time has Certainly Changed .. MHI is our Pir and IMAM of TIME .. Just don't forget .. IMAM OF THE TIME <== .. He Knows the Mentallity of the PPL .. accorinding to it .. he says Farmans ... now its upto us to understand its Spritual Context ... Thats What IMAM is For .. To GUIDE us TIME to TIME or With Respct to time..

Correct me if i m Wrong

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:13 am

razinizar wrote:Islam and Ismailies goes along with the mind of ppl who live in that particular century or time.

for Example
Prophet (P.B.U.H) told every one that in Paradise there will be Big Oceans, Date's tree etc and in Hell there will be Fire..... Just Visualize this ... He Knows the real reality in the Paradise but to make Other People Understand, he kept the reality Secret, thu all the Aspect has 2 faces.. One is Physical and 2nd is Spritualism. He Gave with Message of a GOD to the PPL According to the time.
Thats What Pirs did
When Pirs Went to India ... 1st they Study, Indian Cultures and According to there Minds of ppl in INDIA ... PIRs sang GINANs and in these GINAN, whatever pir Said, is just to make those Ppl understand ISLAM and Ismailies for that particular time

Now the Time has Certainly Changed .. MHI is our Pir and IMAM of TIME .. Just don't forget .. IMAM OF THE TIME <== .. He Knows the Mentallity of the PPL .. accorinding to it .. he says Farmans ... now its upto us to understand its Spritual Context ... Thats What IMAM is For .. To GUIDE us TIME to TIME or With Respct to time..

Correct me if i m Wrong

You raised a good point..according to the "arabist" version of Paradise..every man will have seven virgins daily..etc...
what about the women? do they not go to heaven?
also how many of us actually beleive in that notion of heaven?
in the stricter interpretations of Islam..women should cover from head to toe..since we're being preached to the TRUE Ismailism..should our women do the same? or should we have changed with time..

(i am being sarcastic btw..to make a point).

Shams

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:55 pm

s786 wrote:I just don't see how "Arab Ismailis" whose ancestors were amongst the first followers of the Imam and amongst the first Ismailis, could be wrong... it just doesn't make sense that a person whose ancestors were converts is saying that an original is not right.

S786, I just have to say good luck in getting answers. They- will try to turn things around at every chance they get. I know there are different threads in different Forums discussing the something. And you'll get the same quotes as "what about the thousands of years..." and "Why do you drive a car or use computers...since they were not invented/discovered but a Muslim." Just silly arguments that don't relate well since you may be talking about rites and rituals and it has nothing to do with secular and vise versa.
It’s like someone I know who is in Tech filed explained to me when you call for HP support and you are transferred to the call center in India and you end up going through the same Albert and Costello routine…

s786 · Post by **s786** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 1:32 pm

ShamsB wrote: You raised a good point..according to the "arabist" version of Paradise..every man will have seven virgins daily..etc...
what about the women? do they not go to heaven?
also how many of us actually beleive in that notion of heaven?
in the stricter interpretations of Islam..women should cover from head to toe..since we're being preached to the TRUE Ismailism..should our women do the same? or should we have changed with time..

(i am being sarcastic btw..to make a point).

Shams

ShamsB

You are taking things out of context. I am not referring to those Muslims of the other Shia or Sunni background that cover their heads from head to toe in black. I am aware of people who opt to live backwards 1400 years rather than moving forward. My point was simply the doctrines of spiritualism that Arab Ismailis Vs. Kem Cho Ismailis follow. I like the way razinizar explained himself, and that was all that was needed.

However, you didn't answer what the difference between a Ginan and a Qasida is. I am truly unaware of the difference.

Also, how come there is also a Ithna Ashri "Khoja" community as well?
http://www.khoja.com/

Sort of confuses me.

Thanks!

S786

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:01 pm

unnalhaq wrote: And you'll get the same quotes as "what about the thousands of years..."

"Thousands of years.." were the words of the Imam quoted to correct your naive assumption that Ismailism has only 1400 years of history. Nothing out of context. Just a comparison of the time frames!

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:05 pm

kmaherali wrote:
unnalhaq wrote: And you'll get the same quotes as "what about the thousands of years..."
"Thousands of years.." were the words of the Imam quoted to correct your naive assumption that Ismailism has only 1400 years of history. Nothing out of context. Just a comparison of the time frames!

And I have told you what the interpretation was/would be out side Khoja community and Muslim at large.
As I said, any chance people get here, they do try to get off track.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:10 pm

s786 wrote:
However, you didn't answer what the difference between a Ginan and a Qasida is. I am truly unaware of the difference.

S786

Both of them are considered as devotional literature/poetry. However the Ginans are regarded as being more authoritative and trusted in the sense they are composed by the Pirs and not by any other persons. Imams have also given a great deal of importance to Ginans in many of the Farmans which I am sure you were made aware of in the other threads.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:12 pm

kmaherali wrote:
s786 wrote:
However, you didn't answer what the difference between a Ginan and a Qasida is. I am truly unaware of the difference.

S786
Both of them are considered as devotional literature/poetry. However the Ginans are regarded as been more authoritative and trusted in the sense they are composed by the Pirs and not by any other persons. Imam's have also given a great deal of importance to Ginans in many of the Farmans which I am sure you were made aware of in the other threads.

Okey. Now how many Farmans are there that were given to Non-Khoja Jamets regarding Ginans? I know NONE!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:18 pm

unnalhaq wrote:And I have told you what the interpretation was/would be out side Khoja community and Muslim at large.
As I said, any chance people get here, they do try to get off track.

This statement is valid for all Muslims and not only for the khojas as per the following statement from the "Memoirs of Agakhan"

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message.."

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:23 pm

unnalhaq wrote:Okey. Now how many Farmans are there that were given to Non-Khoja Jamets regarding Ginans? I know NONE!

"It is most important that my spiritual children from wherever they may come should through the ages and from generation to generation hold to this tradition which is so special, so unique and so important to my Jamat."(Karachi, 16th December 1964)

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:25 pm

kmaherali wrote:
unnalhaq wrote:And I have told you what the interpretation was/would be out side Khoja community and Muslim at large.
As I said, any chance people get here, they do try to get off track.
This statement is valid for all Muslims and not only for the khojas as per the following statement from the "Memoirs of Agakhan"

"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message.."

A good example would be the Hajj performed by Muslims and ties to Abraham’s times.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:11 pm

unnalhaq wrote:
s786 wrote:I just don't see how "Arab Ismailis" whose ancestors were amongst the first followers of the Imam and amongst the first Ismailis, could be wrong... it just doesn't make sense that a person whose ancestors were converts is saying that an original is not right.
S786, I just have to say good luck in getting answers. They- will try to turn things around at every chance they get. I know there are different threads in different Forums discussing the something. And you'll get the same quotes as "what about the thousands of years..." and "Why do you drive a car or use computers...since they were not invented/discovered but a Muslim." Just silly arguments that don't relate well since you may be talking about rites and rituals and it has nothing to do with secular and vise versa.
It’s like someone I know who is in Tech filed explained to me when you call for HP support and you are transferred to the call center in India and you end up going through the same Albert and Costello routine…

S786..

I didn't respond with a khoja or a non khoja specific answer because of the above...
btw..i have mentioned before and i will repeat this again..i am not a khoja ismaili..but if you will read my posts you will realize that i am in favor of pluralistic forms and traditions of Ismailism...to me there is no difference in the faiths of an Afghan Ismaili..a russian ismaili..or a chinese ismaili in relation to a khoja ismaili or a persian ismaili..however the way in which we practise our faith is totally different..one of us may sing Ginans..the other Qasidas...
what Unnal Haq has failed to realize is that Ginans were composed by Pirs..i know that Pir Nasir Khusraw composed some Qasidas..but he's the only Pir I know that ventured up to Central Asia..i am aware that Pir Shams made it as far as China..but in my travels have yet to go to those parts of China..i have been to some parts of China..and have attended Jamat Khanas in communities that were 100% ismaili..and have heard them actually attempt to sing Haq Tun Pak Tun and Aval Tunhi..as well as parts of Central Asia where folks that I know are teaching Ginans and learning Qasidahs..
my point to the arabist Ismaili school of thought was basically..these are ismailies amongst us that tie Islam and ismailism to geographical and cultural boundaries..when we all know that it is a universal faith...even our Imams haven't lived in the Middle East for a long time..the majority of ismailies today are from Asia(ethnic origins)..we probably have more ismailies in China than anywhere else in the world...

i am bemused to hear that Unnal haq seems to think of this as the same abbot and costello routine..when it isn't that..it is our interpretation..(and this isn't just the khoja..i am a non khoja that is saying this) of ismailism..
the one difference you will realize ..by reading the various posts by folks such as kmaherali, kandani, star munir, myself and few others is that we aren't telling our friend Unnal haq that what he's practising is the wrong way..but we are trying to get him to accept that there are different traditions in ismailism..each one as important as the other.....

I would say it is wrong not to accept ginans..you may not give them the authority that the Khojas do..but as MHI says..we are spiritual brothers and sisters..you have to give them respect and accordance that is required..
btw.i don't think our Arab brothers and sisters even have Qasidas since they were more central Asian than anything else...but if Khojas can accept Qasidas and even endeavor to learn Qasidas..i think that the other tariqahs need to learn how to merge and meld..remember the Khoja Jamat has always been the pioneering jamat...moving first from India to East Africa and then to the West..

Please send me a PM if you have any more questions.

Shams

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:19 pm

s786 wrote:I just don't see how "Arab Ismailis" whose ancestors were amongst the first followers of the Imam and amongst the first Ismailis, could be wrong... it just doesn't make sense that a person whose ancestors were converts is saying that an original is not right.

so you are now speaking of the same "arab" ismailies whose ancestors were the first ismailies..the people of Kerbala and of Kufa..the descendants of the Abu Bakr and Uthman, the ancestors of Badr Al Jamalee..(note these were people that had given Baiyat to the Imam..in some instances were the first folks to give baiyat at Ghadir E Khum....)
or Qarmat for that instance..(a very high ranking Dai)...

on the other hand..Bilal was a slave..and Salman Farsi was a persian ismaili...Nasir Khusraw was also a persian ismaili....and he gave baiyat rather late in life...

We aren't saying an original isn't right however being first doesn't always mean being right...

as KMaherali will tell you..(and most of us will agree with him).Islam didn't start 1400 years ago..it was completed 1400 years ago...with the declaration of the 1st Historical Imam..Ali...
Islam has been there since the day of Creation and will be there till the day of judgement..it was there with Adam and Nuh and Krishna and Ram and Buddha and Confucious, it was probably there in South America and in Early Egypt and in Dark Africa...and in Austrailia...as we are told in the Quran 124,000 messengers were sent across the globe to deliver His message...and Mohammed was the Seal of the Prophets...Mohammed completed the message and revealed the Imam...

Shams

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:42 pm

ShamsB wrote:i know that Pir Nasir Khusraw composed some Qasidas..but he's the only Pir I know that ventured up to Central Asia..i

Nasir Khusraw was not a Pir in the sense that he was not appointed by the Imam as a Pir. He is only called Pir as a title of respect. He was also not from the progeny of ahl-e-bayt.

DELETED · Post by **DELETED** » Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:58 pm

DELETED

tret · Post by **tret** » Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:24 pm

You raised a good point..according to the "arabist" version of Paradise..every man will have seven virgins daily..etc...
what about the women? do they not go to heaven?
also how many of us actually beleive in that notion of heaven?

Just wanted to give a different interpretation of 72 virgins of the Paradise from an ISmaili perspective.

The unity or "marriage" of the virgins of the Paradise is actually a symbolism to a spiritual significance, like any other symbolisms and parables in the Qur'an. It's the ahle zahir that takes the face value and interprets the 72 horis as its letteral/face value meaning, which is wrong according to ahl-e-haqq.

Paradise and Hell for the soul, and soul is not of realm of physical, hence no gender specific. Physical pleasure is specific to this physical world where we are equipped with senses, alone.

According to Tusi, when one's insight eye is opened, he will be capable of observing the spirituality of both worlds. Then, the visitors of the exalted world, from behind the veil of the hidden world can be witnessed and visualized in form amongst worldly shapes. This joy of witnessing through the vestige from the emanation of the realm of Unity, necessitate the union between "Essence" and [each] "Forms", allegorized as 'marriage'. In this context, the 72 virgins is the forms that's united with the Essence.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:41 am

tret wrote:This joy of witnessing through the vestige from the emanation of the realm of Unity, necessitate the union between "Essence" and [each] "Forms", allegorized as 'marriage'. In this context, the 72 virgins is the forms that's united with the Essence.

It is strange that you are willing to accept the unity of the virgins with the Essence and not willing to accept the Imam as the mazhar of the Essence!

tret · Post by **tret** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 2:20 pm

kmaherali wrote: unity of the virgins with the Essence

It's strange for an ismaili to look at zahir of the words, such as 'virgin' for example.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:32 am

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote: unity of the virgins with the Essence
It's strange for an ismaili to look at zahir of the words, such as 'virgin' for example.

unity of the virgins with the Essence means the zahir and the bat in. If I had only said the virgins, you would have been correct!

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:14 am

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote: unity of the virgins with the Essence
It's strange for an ismaili to look at zahir of the words, such as 'virgin' for example.
unity of the virgins with the Essence means the zahir and the bat in. If I had only said the virgins, you would have been correct!

"Form" doesn't means physical form, as we perceive. Form and Shape are two different concepts. And in this context, doesn't mean unity of zahir and batin.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:08 am

tret wrote: "Form" doesn't means physical form, as we perceive. Form and Shape are two different concepts. And in this context, doesn't mean unity of zahir and batin.

Please explain if the 'Form" is not physical then what is it. I don't think we mentioned shape anywhere, nevertheless please explain the difference from a practical perspective. Normally if one says 'it took shape', it is regarded as 'it took form'. Please clarify the difference.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:18 pm

kmaherali wrote: Please explain if the 'Form" is not physical then what is it.

Form [chihra] is not perceptible to the agent, without matter; however, Form is intelligible to our soul.
Matter is perceptible to the sense and together with form becomes shape. i.e. a carpenter conceives the form of a chair in his mind first, before building it.

So, in this context the unity is not between zahir and batin.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:56 am

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote: Please explain if the 'Form" is not physical then what is it.
Form [chihra] is not perceptible to the agent, without matter; however, Form is intelligible to our soul.
Matter is perceptible to the sense and together with form becomes shape. i.e. a carpenter conceives the form of a chair in his mind first, before building it.

So, in this context the unity is not between zahir and batin.

OK I except that there can be non-physical forms such as the astral forms. Nevertheless you mentioned that the form was united with the Essence. This implies that there is the zahir component of the form and the batin component of the Essence. Wouldn't you agree with that?

The next question is that, if the Virgins could be united with the Essence why not the Imams?