Das Avatar

[Admin]

By the way KIM of MSMS is out of circulation on Hidayat of Shah Karim Hazar Imam, you know well..

What you are saying is completely wrong. Farmans of Sultan Muhammad Shah have been confirmed by Hazar Imam as soon as he came into Imamat, never restricted nor "banned" as you suggest. You know this well and you are choosing to perpetually mislead the readers. Then you question why your account is deleted?

As recently as in 2010 Hazar Imam has confirmed that there is no distinction between his Farmans and Farmans of past Imams. This logic has been discussed time and again. We are not going to continue round and round.

[shivaathervedi_2]

By the way KIM of MSMS is out of circulation on Hidayat of Shah Karim Hazar Imam, you know well..

What you are saying is completely wrong. Farmans of Sultan Muhammad Shah have been confirmed by Hazar Imam as soon as he came into Imamat, never restricted nor "banned" as you suggest. You know this well and you are choosing to perpetually mislead the readers. Then you question why your account is deleted?

As recently as in 2010 Hazar Imam has confirmed that there is no distinction between his Farmans and Farmans of past Imams. This logic has been discussed time and again. We are not going to continue round and round.

I am not misleading. I have read the minutes and documentation. I do not understand why you keep covering Kmaherali. Let him reply. He asked me a question and replied him, now let him come forward. I am not insulting any one.

[kmaherali]

Can you explain Dus Avtars according to Islamic Tenets?

By the way KIM of MSMS is out of circulation on Hidayat of Shah Karim Hazar Imam, you know well. These Farmans are not read in JKS since 1975. Only abridged copy (selected Farmans) printed by ITREB is recommended for quotations. The Farman you quoted in not available in that booklet.

We have had discussions about what the philosophy of Das Avtar is, so please do a search and you will find them. I can't keep repeating over and over.

MHI made the following Farman:

I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own. And remember that the changes which are taking place must not change your attitude towards your homes and for this country. You must work harder and better and I am sure if you do so, you will greatly contribute to the national prosperity of the country.(Dar es Salaam, Tanganyika (Tanzania), December 7,1961 (430 P.M.),Upanga Jamatkhana.)

[shivaathervedi_2]

Can you explain Dus Avtars according to Islamic Tenets?

By the way KIM of MSMS is out of circulation on Hidayat of Shah Karim Hazar Imam, you know well. These Farmans are not read in JKS since 1975. Only abridged copy (selected Farmans) printed by ITREB is recommended for quotations. The Farman you quoted in not available in that booklet.

We have had discussions about what the philosophy of Das Avtar is, so please do a search and you will find them. I can't keep repeating over and over.

MHI made the following Farman:

I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own. And remember that the changes which are taking place must not change your attitude towards your homes and for this country. You must work harder and better and I am sure if you do so, you will greatly contribute to the national prosperity of the country.(Dar es Salaam, Tanganyika (Tanzania), December 7,1961 (430 P.M.),Upanga Jamatkhana.)

I do not want to put you in KASHTT to keep repeating.

Please analyze the Farman you quote of Hazar Imam made in 1960 in Dares Salam, Tanganyika (old name) new name Tanzania. This particular Farman is in the context or back ground of changes happened in colonial system. Mostly African countries started getting independence from British and France. Now what Imam explained to Jamaits was that under changing circumstances Jamaits should not change their attitudes, work hard and contribute to the national prosperity of the countries where they live. In this regard Imam said, follow my Farmans and of my grand father. This particular Farman has nothing to do with Dus Avtars or reincarnation.
Karim, I have marked that you quote the Farmans out of context or back ground, this is also same with Memoirs, selecting few lines and twisting statement in your favor, won't work.

[Admin]

Each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of his predecessor and during his time, made new Farmans according to time, rarely changing anything of spiritual nature but guiding us though changing world for our betterment.

This is very apparent in manuscripts that have Farmans of past Imam such as Aga Hassanli Shah and Aga Ali Shah and which as recently as 2010, Shah Karim Hazar Imam said Farmans of past Imams are his Farmans.

We are just turning round and round because you keep repeating the same, either you should refresh your memory by reading past post or read them before posting if you have never read them before.

Beside copy paste, I only see you repeating again and again regardless of the threads, the same old sentences which you have used since you started on this Forum. At some point you have to understand that repeatation becomes boring.

[shivaathervedi_2]

Each Imam has confirmed the Farmans of his predecessor and during his time, made new Farmans according to time, rarely changing anything of spiritual nature but guiding us though changing world for our betterment.

This is very apparent in manuscripts that have Farmans of past Imam such as Aga Hassanli Shah and Aga Ali Shah and which as recently as 2010, Shah Karim Hazar Imam said Farmans of past Imams are his Farmans.

We are just turning round and round because you keep repeating the same, either you should refresh your memory by reading past post or read them before posting if you have never read them before.

Beside copy paste, I only see you repeating again and again regardless of the threads, the same old sentences which you have used since you started on this Forum. At some point you have to understand that repeatation becomes boring.

All Farmans of all Imams are "bar Haqq", there is no doubt in it. But Farmans kept changing according to time. As MSMS said," In my 70 years of Imamat, I changed Farmans 70 times, Do you believe in this Farman?
When Imam change or replace Farman he will never say that I banned, or cancelled or replaced Farman of my predecessor. It is the jamait to understand it, or it is the duty of leaders, Mukhis, and ITREB to explain Jamaits.
When a Farman is made one has to understand in what context or back ground Imam is making a Farman. It can be in religious context, or ethical context, or hidayat about economical conditions, or to take care of families and elders, or about education, or is thid Farman for just some paricular country, or region, or meant for all followers.
Now coming to Farman made in 1960 in Tanzania which is quoted by Karim. You and your family migrated to Canada under dire conditions in Uganda, or in Tanzania. Imam made that particular Farman for African jamiats as political scenario kept changing. Imam's hidayat was in that context and that particular Farman there is no mention of reincarnation or Dus Avtars, that was my point.
Look my this posting is not copy and paste or rounds in rounds. Let Karim to express himself on this particular Farman.

[kmaherali]

Please analyze the Farman you quote of Hazar Imam made in 1960 in Dares Salam, Tanganyika (old name) new name Tanzania. This particular Farman is in the context or back ground of changes happened in colonial system. Mostly African countries started getting independence from British and France. Now what Imam explained to Jamaits was that under changing circumstances Jamaits should not change their attitudes, work hard and contribute to the national prosperity of the countries where they live. In this regard Imam said, follow my Farmans and of my grand father. This particular Farman has nothing to do with Dus Avtars or reincarnation.
Karim, I have marked that you quote the Farmans out of context or back ground, this is also same with Memoirs, selecting few lines and twisting statement in your favor, won't work.

Yes it is true that the Farman was made at a time of transition from the colonial rule to the newly independent states. However the transition underpinned certain principles among which the foremost was that of following the Farmans of the Imam of the Imam of the time and his predecessor (his Grandfather).

It was an occasion for the Imam to confirm the validity of the Farmans of his grandfather. In this transition all Farmans are applicable not only about worldly matters but more importantly about matters of faith.

Has the present Imam made any Farmans about not following the Farmans of his grandfather?

The 'out of context' phrase is a very convenient tool to deny facts!

[shivaathervedi_2]

Please analyze the Farman you quote of Hazar Imam made in 1960 in Dares Salam, Tanganyika (old name) new name Tanzania. This particular Farman is in the context or back ground of changes happened in colonial system. Mostly African countries started getting independence from British and France. Now what Imam explained to Jamaits was that under changing circumstances Jamaits should not change their attitudes, work hard and contribute to the national prosperity of the countries where they live. In this regard Imam said, follow my Farmans and of my grand father. This particular Farman has nothing to do with Dus Avtars or reincarnation.
Karim, I have marked that you quote the Farmans out of context or back ground, this is also same with Memoirs, selecting few lines and twisting statement in your favor, won't work.

Yes it is true that the Farman was made at a time of transition from the colonial rule to the newly independent states. However the transition underpinned certain principles among which the foremost was that of following the Farmans of the Imam of the Imam of the time and his predecessor (his Grandfather).

It was an occasion for the Imam to confirm the validity of the Farmans of his grandfather. In this transition all Farmans are applicable not only about worldly matters but more importantly about matters of faith.

Has the present Imam made any Farmans about not following the Farmans of his grandfather?

The 'out of context' phrase is a very convenient tool to deny facts!

Has the present Imam made any Farmans about not following the Farmans of his grandfather?
For your above query, please read my post addressed to Admin on Tues May first, 2018. I wrote;
"When Imam changes or replace Farman he will never say that I banned, or cancelled or replaced Farman of my predecessor. It is the jamait to understand it, or it is the duty of leaders, Mukhis, and ITREB to explain Jamaits. When a Farman is made one has to understand in what context or back ground Imam is making a Farman. It can be in religious context, or ethical context, or hidayat about economical conditions, or to take care of families and elders, or about education, or is this Farman for just some particular country, or region, or meant for all followers". You admitted,"Yes it is true that the Farman was made at a time of transition from the colonial rule to the newly independent states".
As MSMS was near to British administration,he knew well that after 2nd world war British is going give independence to colonies under their admin. AT that time he issued Hidayat for African jamaits. When Shah Karim became Imam he was aware of the situation in African colonies that's why he guided murids to be careful. He never wants for any of his murid to get in trouble or get killed. In that context he made that Farman of 1960 in Tanzania, reminding jamaits that what his grand father gave Hidayats are his also. That particular farman has nothing to do with reincarnation or Dus Avtars.

[kmaherali]

[That particular farman has nothing to do with reincarnation or Dus Avtars.

OK do you have Farmans which indicate that the Farman on Das Avtars is no more valid? On the contrary MHI has provided a Hidayat that our faith is based upon thousands of years of history. Where are the thousands of years history?

[shivaathervedi_2]

[That particular farman has nothing to do with reincarnation or Dus Avtars.

OK do you have Farmans which indicate that the Farman on Das Avtars is no more valid? On the contrary MHI has provided a Hidayat that our faith is based upon thousands of years of history. Where are the thousands of years history?

According yo Talmud and Ahadith, story of Adam is around 6000 years old. Islam started with Adam. Being Muslims Ismailis believe in all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. That is what Imam mentioned about thousands of years of history.
In 1960, in 1964, in 1969 (Ginan conferences), 1975 Paris conference Imam gave Hidayat about many changes. Leaders and Forum members were asked to convey the changes to jamaits slowly and politely, and special care should be taken about seniors.
Unfortunately there were differences in leadership about Ginans and some philosophy mentioned in Ginans. At that time few leaders and missionaries tried to explain the jamaits but because of rage of jamaits backed off. The message was not delivered properly. Leadership failed to convey the message but Imam continued his work explaining jamaits, inducing more and more Quranic vocabulary and through TASBIHAT AND PRAYERS during Jubilees SJ/GJ/DJ.

[kmaherali]

According yo Talmud and Ahadith, story of Adam is around 6000 years old. Islam started with Adam. Being Muslims Ismailis believe in all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. That is what Imam mentioned about thousands of years of history..

Usually in a conversation, when one says thousands of years, it means many many thousands of years, not just a handful which 6000 implies. As You have been reminded several times, MSMS says in his Memoirs:

All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe.

In 1960, in 1964, in 1969 (Ginan conferences), 1975 Paris conference Imam gave Hidayat about many changes. Leaders and Forum members were asked to convey the changes to jamaits slowly and politely, and special care should be taken about seniors.
Unfortunately there were differences in leadership about Ginans and some philosophy mentioned in Ginans. At that time few leaders and missionaries tried to explain the jamaits but because of rage of jamaits backed off. The message was not delivered properly. Leadership failed to convey the message but Imam continued his work explaining jamaits, inducing more and more Quranic vocabulary and through TASBIHAT AND PRAYERS during Jubilees SJ/GJ/DJ.

I asked you to provide a Farman which would invalidate the Farman on Das Avtaars. If there is no such Farman then the Farman made by MSMS is valid.

You can talk and talk about leadership and Hidayats given to them, but unless there is a Farman to the contrary, we should follow the Farman on Das Avatar given by MSMS.

[shivaathervedi_2]

According yo Talmud and Ahadith, story of Adam is around 6000 years old. Islam started with Adam. Being Muslims Ismailis believe in all Prophets from Adam to Muhammad. That is what Imam mentioned about thousands of years of history..

Usually in a conversation, when one says thousands of years, it means many many thousands of years, not just a handful which 6000 implies. As You have been reminded several times, MSMS says in his Memoirs:

All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe.

In 1960, in 1964, in 1969 (Ginan conferences), 1975 Paris conference Imam gave Hidayat about many changes. Leaders and Forum members were asked to convey the changes to jamaits slowly and politely, and special care should be taken about seniors.
Unfortunately there were differences in leadership about Ginans and some philosophy mentioned in Ginans. At that time few leaders and missionaries tried to explain the jamaits but because of rage of jamaits backed off. The message was not delivered properly. Leadership failed to convey the message but Imam continued his work explaining jamaits, inducing more and more Quranic vocabulary and through TASBIHAT AND PRAYERS during Jubilees SJ/GJ/DJ.

I asked you to provide a Farman which would invalidate the Farman on Das Avtaars. If there is no such Farman then the Farman made by MSMS is valid.

You can talk and talk about leadership and Hidayats given to them, but unless there is a Farman to the contrary, we should follow the Farman on Das Avatar given by MSMS.

You quoted fro Memoirs," all Islamic schools of thought accept it is as fundamental principle that for CENTURIES for thousands of years before advent of Muhammad......". Please pay attention to word CENTURIES also, what do you mean by that...hundred thousands?
I gave reference of Talmud and Hadith, if you think thousands means 10 thousands it is up to you, Imam had not not given exact figure. Every reader can assume what ever thousands. There is no restriction from my side.

I think you did paid attention to my previos post to you. Let me quote my paragraph again;
"When Imam changes or replace Farman he will never say that I banned, or cancelled or replaced Farman of my predecessor. It is the jamait to understand it, or it is the duty of leaders, Mukhis, and ITREB to explain Jamaits. When a Farman is made one has to understand in what context or back ground Imam is making a Farman. It can be in religious context, or ethical context, or hidayat about economical conditions, or to take care of families and elders, or about education, or is this Farman for just some particular country, or region, or meant for all followers".
Proof is after 1975 conference waizes on lakh chourasi seized officially.
You are master of deducing things, why not here. Imam usually does not give all hidayat in writing. He makes extempore Farmans.

[kmaherali]

You quoted fro Memoirs," all Islamic schools of thought accept it is as fundamental principle that for CENTURIES for thousands of years before advent of Muhammad......". Please pay attention to word CENTURIES also, what do you mean by that...hundred thousands?
I gave reference of Talmud and Hadith, if you think thousands means 10 thousands it is up to you, Imam had not not given exact figure. Every reader can assume what ever thousands. There is no restriction from my side..

OK lets for the time being ignore the hundreds thousands. What about the statement that Islam accepts Prophets earlier than Adam? Islam has existed since the beginning and not only for 6000 years since Hazarat Adam. You seem to have more faith in controversial hadiths than the words of the Imam!

Proof is after 1975 conference waizes on lakh chourasi seized officially.
You are master of deducing things, why not here. Imam usually does not give all hidayat in writing. He makes extempore Farmans.

There is no connection between Das Avtar and lakh chorasi. I was at the IIS from 1983-1987. I have never been told there that lakh chorasi was banned or prohibited. Farmans are Farmans and of course all Farmans are made extempore. However they are recorded for future readings. Hidayats given to institutions cannot be considered as Farmans to the Jamat. Also important Hidayats given to the institutions are made known to the Jamat. On this important matter, no Hidayat has been communicated to the Jamat.

[shivaathervedi_2]

You quoted fro Memoirs," all Islamic schools of thought accept it is as fundamental principle that for CENTURIES for thousands of years before advent of Muhammad......". Please pay attention to word CENTURIES also, what do you mean by that...hundred thousands?
I gave reference of Talmud and Hadith, if you think thousands means 10 thousands it is up to you, Imam had not not given exact figure. Every reader can assume what ever thousands. There is no restriction from my side..

OK lets for the time being ignore the hundreds thousands. What about the statement that Islam accepts Prophets earlier than Adam? Islam has existed since the beginning and not only for 6000 years since Hazarat Adam. You seem to have more faith in controversial hadiths than the words of the Imam!

Proof is after 1975 conference waizes on lakh chourasi seized officially.
You are master of deducing things, why not here. Imam usually does not give all hidayat in writing. He makes extempore Farmans.

There is no connection between Das Avtar and lakh chorasi. I was at the IIS from 1983-1987. I have never been told there that lakh chorasi was banned or prohibited. Farmans are Farmans and of course all Farmans are made extempore. However they are recorded for future readings. Hidayats given to institutions cannot be considered as Farmans to the Jamat. Also important Hidayats given to the institutions are made known to the Jamat. On this important matter, no Hidayat has been communicated to the Jamat.

In this paragraph which you quoted from Memoirs, there is no mention of Prophets before Adam.
"All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe".
Memoirs is not a book of Farmans.

Was philosophy of lakh chourasi included in IIS teachings? Was there any special course on this subject like Quran or history?
The ITREB guidance was for missionaries in field and was not for IIS students. Of course hidayat by Imam is Farman.
Institutions work for jamaits and the hidayat by Imam to institution leaders is meant for jamaits. It is the duty of leaders to convey the message or hidayat to jamaits sincerely.
One senior missionary told me that in late 70's there were instructions for missionaries from ITREB not to deliver waizes on some topics including Dus Avtars, lakh chourasi, Ali Allah and so on, though some honorary missionaries did not comply at that time. Let me ask you; Is lakh chourasi chakar for Dus Avtars too?

[kmaherali]

In this paragraph which you quoted from Memoirs, there is no mention of Prophets before Adam.

What about Sri Ram and Sri Krishna?

Was philosophy of lakh chourasi included in IIS teachings? Was there any special course on this subject like Quran or history?
The ITREB guidance was for missionaries in field and was not for IIS students. Of course hidayat by Imam is Farman.
Institutions work for jamaits and the hidayat by Imam to institution leaders is meant for jamaits. It is the duty of leaders to convey the message or hidayat to jamaits sincerely.
One senior missionary told me that in late 70's there were instructions for missionaries from ITREB not to deliver waizes on some topics including Dus Avtars, lakh chourasi, Ali Allah and so on, though some honorary missionaries did not comply at that time. Let me ask you; Is lakh chourasi chakar for Dus Avtars too?

Just for your information, we were also being trained to become waezins, hence we were aware of all guidance given to the ITREBS.

We were given a course in Ginans and there was nothing that was excluded. We were informed about all the concepts contained therein. Late Alwaez Amlani who gave us the course told us that he had a meeting with MHI on the Ginans. MHI told him that we don't become Jews when Hazarat Musa is mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly we don't become Hindus when Hindu names are mentioned in the Ginans.

There is no chakar for the Das Avtars. They are already pure by birth.

[shivaathervedi_2]

In this paragraph which you quoted from Memoirs, there is no mention of Prophets before Adam.

What about Sri Ram and Sri Krishna?

Was philosophy of lakh chourasi included in IIS teachings? Was there any special course on this subject like Quran or history?
The ITREB guidance was for missionaries in field and was not for IIS students. Of course hidayat by Imam is Farman.
Institutions work for jamaits and the hidayat by Imam to institution leaders is meant for jamaits. It is the duty of leaders to convey the message or hidayat to jamaits sincerely.
One senior missionary told me that in late 70's there were instructions for missionaries from ITREB not to deliver waizes on some topics including Dus Avtars, lakh chourasi, Ali Allah and so on, though some honorary missionaries did not comply at that time. Let me ask you; Is lakh chourasi chakar for Dus Avtars too?

Just for your information, we were also being trained to become waezins, hence we were aware of all guidance given to the ITREBS.

We were given a course in Ginans and there was nothing that was excluded. We were informed about all the concepts contained therein. Late Alwaez Amlani who gave us the course told us that he had a meeting with MHI on the Ginans. MHI told him that we don't become Jews when Hazarat Musa is mentioned in the Qur'an. Similarly we don't become Hindus when Hindu names are mentioned in the Ginans.

There is no chakar for the Das Avtars. They are already pure by birth.

Let me give you quotes when Shri Krishna and Shri Rama were born. This shows they were born after Adam.

Historical period of Krishna;
Shrimad Bhagvatam declares that Krishna arrives on Earth towards the end of the Dwapar Yug of the 7th Manvantar of the 1st Kalpa of the 51st year of the current Brahma.
Currently, we are in the last of the four Yugas called the Kaliyuga which, according to astronomical calculations, began on the 20th of February 3102 BCE. Now, this would place Krishna roughly around 3300-3200 BCE as the Bhagvatam states that Kaliyuga couldn't begin till Krishna was on the planet!

'Lord Ram was born in 5114 BC' | India News - Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 273107.cms

How many from your batch (1983-1987) became active Alwaez? What about non khoja students? As regarding late Alwaez Amlani, with due respect, he belonged to Alwaez Late Abu Ali group who opposed the changes or classification of Ginans (after all Imam's hidayat was clear on the subject). I assume that training to trainees was limited and did not cover all aspects of Ginans.
For my informatrion, in what year Imam said to Late Alwaez 'that by mentioning Moses we don't become Jews or by saying Hindu names in Ginans we don't become Hindus'.
Were Avtars role models or every thing ethically was free for them?
Avtar is pure, that about a new born baby, Is this baby pure or not?

[Admin]

Krishna was before Buddh Awatar. In the Asal Dua there was a genealogy of the Imams before Hazrat Ali going back to Adam and before Adam too.

The Dua while giving the genealogy said "Buddh ma this Shish" which means the Imamat of Buddh was continued in Shish.

The genealogy from Shish is the same as the Shish son of Adam and there is enough reading one can do to see that Buddh was the Grandfather of Shish, the father of Adam.

Buddh ended the past Cycle and the new cycle started in Middle East maybe 6,000 or 7,000 years ago where Buddh was referred to as Mowlana Honayd. All this shows that Krishna who preceded Buddh lived well before the +/- 7,000 years cycle attributed to Adam.

All this has always been part of the discussion and it is right as one reader suggested that some turn round and round and unwilling to read previous posts and this is a discouraging factor in serious people posting here.

[shivaathervedi_2]

I gave historical quotes and gave reference. You are mind set. Problem is if references goes in your favor you accept it and be happy, and if these references goes against your philosophy (and of those who have complaints about me) you start criticizing. There are more historical facts coming out about Hinduism and Ismailism. New books are written, new information is coming out. It was a time when Ismaili History by Chunara was recommended, now it is not because new historical facts, new research, new information, new books are out. For new generation these should be discussed.

Please help me to understand you, kmaherali and Shams B; In Hinduism there are 10 Avtars means 10 cycles, where as Ismailis believe in 7 cycles and on contrary there is no mention of 7 cycles in Ginans!!

[Admin]

The 7 cycles you are mentioning are part of the 4th jug (not 10th cycle) named Kajug of the last Khalifa Kalap This is a whole area of study. There is no contradictions at all.

Das Avatar does not mean 10 cycles. There were 4 Avatars in the first Jug, 3 in the second jug, 2 in the third jug and only one Naklanki Avatar in the 4th jug. All the Imam of the cycle of Ali are the Naklanki Avatar.

Today remains today, whether you are used to Samvat calendar, Maya calendar, international calendar, Hijri calendar or Dhama dham Mast Calendar .

[kmaherali]

Let me give you quotes when Shri Krishna and Shri Rama were born. This shows they were born after Adam.

Historical period of Krishna;
Shrimad Bhagvatam declares that Krishna arrives on Earth towards the end of the Dwapar Yug of the 7th Manvantar of the 1st Kalpa of the 51st year of the current Brahma.
Currently, we are in the last of the four Yugas called the Kaliyuga which, according to astronomical calculations, began on the 20th of February 3102 BCE. Now, this would place Krishna roughly around 3300-3200 BCE as the Bhagvatam states that Kaliyuga couldn't begin till Krishna was on the planet!

'Lord Ram was born in 5114 BC' | India News - Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 273107.cms?

Good piece of research! I have no questions about the dates of Lord Ram and Lord Krishna. However I have a question mark about 6000 years attributed to Hazarat Adam.

If you consider the 1400 years of history after Hazarat Aly, there have been 49 nine Imams which gives and average Imamat of 1400/49 = 28.57 years.

Now if you consider the existing genealogies of the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly extending to Hazarat Adam, there were at the most 30 names. This is given by Fatimid Dais and Pir Sadardeen. Now if you consider the same average Imamat for the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly, then the time frame between Hazarat Adam to Hazarat Aly would be 28.57 X 30 = 857.14. Even if you add 500 years as a margin of historical error, you would still come up with 1300 years.

Now Hazarat Ali lived in 7th Century AD. Hazarat Adam would have been born at most around 600 - 1300 = 700 BC.

According to the calculations of Swami Sri Yukteshwar, the Kali Yuga began around 700 BC.

According to Pir Sadardeen, Hazarat Adam began the period of Kaliyuga.

Hence the figure of 6000 attributed to Hazart Adam is way exaggerated .

Hence Sri Krishna and Sri Ram were born much earlier than Hazarat Adam.

How many from your batch (1983-1987) became active Alwaez? What about non khoja students? As regarding late Alwaez Amlani, with due respect, he belonged to Alwaez Late Abu Ali group who opposed the changes or classification of Ginans (after all Imam's hidayat was clear on the subject). I assume that training to trainees was limited and did not cover all aspects of Ginans.?

I don't think that it matters whether the students eventually became Alwaezes. What matters is that they were given the tools to become Alwaezes and hence were well grounded in knowledge. The non-khoja students (Syrians) were also given the same exposure. All aspects of Ginas were covered.

For my informatrion, in what year Imam said to Late Alwaez 'that by mentioning Moses we don't become Jews or by saying Hindu names in Ginans we don't become Hindus'.
Were Avtars role models or every thing ethically was free for them?
Avtar is pure, that about a new born baby, Is this baby pure or not?

Of course Avtars are always pure since birth. Their actions cannot be judged according to human standards. Hence they cannot be role models.

[kmaherali]

Buddh ended the past Cycle and the new cycle started in Middle East maybe 6,000 or 7,000 years ago where Buddh was referred to as Mowlana Honayd. All this shows that Krishna who preceded Buddh lived well before the +/- 7,000 years cycle attributed to Adam.

These thousand year cycles have greatly been exaggerated. Just consider the cycle between Jesus and Muhammad. 600 years!!

[Admin]

Buddh ended the past Cycle and the new cycle started in Middle East maybe 6,000 or 7,000 years ago where Buddh was referred to as Mowlana Honayd. All this shows that Krishna who preceded Buddh lived well before the +/- 7,000 years cycle attributed to Adam.

These thousand year cycles have greatly been exaggerated. Just consider the cycle between Jesus and Muhammad. 600 years!!

Who knows, some of the prophets life span defies imagination. (So does the number of wife of some

My point is not that I believe Adam lived 6,000 years ago, my point is Krishna's time preceded Adam's time. Adam may have been few thousands or few millions years ago depending of which Adam we talk but the point is Krishna Preceded Buddh Avatar and Buddh Avatar preceded the last Adam.

[shivaathervedi_2]

Krishna was before Buddh Awatar. In the Asal Dua there was a genealogy of the Imams before Hazrat Ali going back to Adam and before Adam too.

The Dua while giving the genealogy said "Buddh ma this Shish" which means the Imamat of Buddh was continued in Shish.

The genealogy from Shish is the same as the Shish son of Adam and there is enough reading one can do to see that Buddh was the Grandfather of Shish, the father of Adam.

Buddh ended the past Cycle and the new cycle started in Middle East maybe 6,000 or 7,000 years ago where Buddh was referred to as Mowlana Honayd. All this shows that Krishna who preceded Buddh lived well before the +/- 7,000 years cycle attributed to Adam.

All this has always been part of the discussion and it is right as one reader suggested that some turn round and round and unwilling to read previous posts and this is a discouraging factor in serious people posting here.

Many times you have quoted ASAL DUA, for God sake where is that ASAL DUA of Pir Sadardin. If you have please post it, once for all the issue will be settled.

[kmaherali]

Many times you have quoted ASAL DUA, for God sake where is that ASAL DUA of Pir Sadardin. If you have please post it, once for all the issue will be settled.

The Vishanapuri derived from Asal Dua is given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=636

Go to the middle of the page

[shivaathervedi_3]

Let me give you quotes when Shri Krishna and Shri Rama were born. This shows they were born after Adam.

Historical period of Krishna;
Shrimad Bhagvatam declares that Krishna arrives on Earth towards the end of the Dwapar Yug of the 7th Manvantar of the 1st Kalpa of the 51st year of the current Brahma.
Currently, we are in the last of the four Yugas called the Kaliyuga which, according to astronomical calculations, began on the 20th of February 3102 BCE. Now, this would place Krishna roughly around 3300-3200 BCE as the Bhagvatam states that Kaliyuga couldn't begin till Krishna was on the planet!

'Lord Ram was born in 5114 BC' | India News - Times of India
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 273107.cms?

Good piece of research! I have no questions about the dates of Lord Ram and Lord Krishna. However I have a question mark about 6000 years attributed to Hazarat Adam.

If you consider the 1400 years of history after Hazarat Aly, there have been 49 nine Imams which gives and average Imamat of 1400/49 = 28.57 years.

Now if you consider the existing genealogies of the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly extending to Hazarat Adam, there were at the most 30 names. This is given by Fatimid Dais and Pir Sadardeen. Now if you consider the same average Imamat for the Imams prior to Hazarat Aly, then the time frame between Hazarat Adam to Hazarat Aly would be 28.57 X 30 = 857.14. Even if you add 500 years as a margin of historical error, you would still come up with 1300 years.

Now Hazarat Ali lived in 7th Century AD. Hazarat Adam would have been born at most around 600 - 1300 = 700 BC.

According to the calculations of Swami Sri Yukteshwar, the Kali Yuga began around 700 BC.

According to Pir Sadardeen, Hazarat Adam began the period of Kaliyuga.

Hence the figure of 6000 attributed to Hazart Adam is way exaggerated .

Hence Sri Krishna and Sri Ram were born much earlier than Hazarat Adam.

How many from your batch (1983-1987) became active Alwaez? What about non khoja students? As regarding late Alwaez Amlani, with due respect, he belonged to Alwaez Late Abu Ali group who opposed the changes or classification of Ginans (after all Imam's hidayat was clear on the subject). I assume that training to trainees was limited and did not cover all aspects of Ginans.?

I don't think that it matters whether the students eventually became Alwaezes. What matters is that they were given the tools to become Alwaezes and hence were well grounded in knowledge. The non-khoja students (Syrians) were also given the same exposure. All aspects of Ginas were covered.

For my informatrion, in what year Imam said to Late Alwaez 'that by mentioning Moses we don't become Jews or by saying Hindu names in Ginans we don't become Hindus'.
Were Avtars role models or every thing ethically was free for them?
Avtar is pure, that about a new born baby, Is this baby pure or not?

Of course Avtars are always pure since birth. Their actions cannot be judged according to human standards. Hence they cannot be role models.

Good calculations.
I quoted 6000 because our Dais mentioned each cycle of 1000 years of Natiq and Asas. I pesonally do not insist on 6000 years figure the reason is there were 124,000 paigambers, if we divide it with 6000, the result is 20.66, so every 20/21 years God authorized a Paigambar!

You are well aware that confidential and classified Farmans are delivered in CAMERA, it is not for trainee missionaries except may be few trusted.

Avtars are role models, in Ginans Prophet is called Brahma and Quran says, LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH.
You have the best role model in the life of Prophet.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Many times you have quoted ASAL DUA, for God sake where is that ASAL DUA of Pir Sadardin. If you have please post it, once for all the issue will be settled.

The Vishanapuri derived from Asal Dua is given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=636

Go to the middle of the page

I requested complete Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin. It is not available at ITREB Karachi library which is one of the best Ismaili library. I asked a friend in Mumbai, if that is available in Ismaili library there. The answer was negative. I am not sure about IIS library. Where is the Asal Dua? ( zameen kha gai ya aasman nigal gaya). Also I am unable to locate the special Dua which was given to Central Asian Ismailis through Pir SabzAli! No where available.
The source you mentioned to try on heritage is not a complete Asal Dua, but just 77 patras. Even Noorun ala Noor by missionary Shamsuddin Bande Ali does not have Asal Dua. It shows Satpunthi Ismailis are unable to protect their valuable Heritage!!

[AJD]

The book of Asal Dua is present at Library in Karachi (ITREB, Pakistan). You cannot say that the book is not there if you can not find it. In fact, there are so many books preserved in the library (Khojki and Gujarati) Section. I do not appreciate the way they have kept as they dis regard this literature and give preference to literature and books written in classical Islamic languages.

You need to know where to search for what!!

[shivaathervedi_3]

Mr. AJD,
I know the set up of library. Upper portion and lower portion. No doubt lower portion is not well organized. About your claim that Asal Dua by Pir Sadardin in original form is available in Library, I doubted. I have seen 1950 Dua edition in which MSMS MADE CHANGES. If you have seen the booklet, what is the printing date on that, how many pages it contains, in what script it is, and published by which institution?

[kmaherali]

I quoted 6000 because our Dais mentioned each cycle of 1000 years of Natiq and Asas. I pesonally do not insist on 6000 years figure the reason is there were 124,000 paigambers, if we divide it with 6000, the result is 20.66, so every 20/21 years God authorized a Paigambar!.

Correction, it would be 6000/124000 = 18 days!. Hence, according to your understanding Allah would appoint a prophet very 18 days!

You are well aware that confidential and classified Farmans are delivered in CAMERA, it is not for trainee missionaries except may be few trusted..

What is the use of Hidayats remaining in cameras, if they cannot be even accessible to waezeens! It is as good as no Hidayats at all!

Avtars are role models, in Ginans Prophet is called Brahma and Quran says, LAKAD KAAN LAKUM FI RASULLILAHI USWATUN HASANAH.
You have the best role model in the life of Prophet.

We don't follow the sunna of the Prophet and Imams! We are not Sunnis. Imams are Pure by birth and they do not have to purify themselves through Ibadat. We as murids have to purify ourselves.

[kmaherali]

I requested complete Asal Dua given by Pir Sadardin. It is not available at ITREB Karachi library which is one of the best Ismaili library. I asked a friend in Mumbai, if that is available in Ismaili library there. The answer was negative. I am not sure about IIS library. Where is the Asal Dua? ( zameen kha gai ya aasman nigal gaya). Also I am unable to locate the special Dua which was given to Central Asian Ismailis through Pir SabzAli! No where available.
The source you mentioned to try on heritage is not a complete Asal Dua, but just 77 patras. Even Noorun ala Noor by missionary Shamsuddin Bande Ali does not have Asal Dua. It shows Satpunthi Ismailis are unable to protect their valuable Heritage!!

Our interest in this discussion relates to the genealogy of the Imams given in the Asal Dua. This has been provided. Other aspects of the Asal Dua have nothing to do with this discussion.