Imam and Imamat

[FreeLancer]

Please make up your mind. Is preamble valid for Ismailis or not?

Yes the preamble is valid for Ismailis. As MHI has told us in the Syria Farman. There are two modes of interpretation of our faith: the Zaher and the Batin. The Zaher interpretation is visible to everyone- even non-Ismailis and has been stated in the preamble to the Constitution.

The batin interpretation is only for Ismailis. Of course a person who begins his journey, starts with the Zaher which is laid out in the preamble and then goes to the Batin.

The duality of the Zaher and the Batin is fundamental according to the Farman

EVEN the word BATIN is not used in the Preamble.
Preamble prescribed the fundamental rules of our Tariqa. Till today I have not find any batin in Preamble, neither Imam uttered a single word about batin in Preamble. Your handy and easy formula is to relate all Tariqa issues with batin so that learners should dive and drown in the vast ocean of batin.

[Admin]

There is no reason why Batin should be mentioned in Preamble. Discussion on Preamble should move to the appropriate thread. No more Preamble discussion here.

[kmaherali]

EVEN the word BATIN is not used in the Preamble.
Preamble prescribed the fundamental rules of our Tariqa. Till today I have not find any batin in Preamble, neither Imam uttered a single word about batin in Preamble. Your handy and easy formula is to relate all Tariqa issues with batin so that learners should dive and drown in the vast ocean of batin.

The word Batin may not be mentioned but the concept of Batin is mentioned:

The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision.

Ask yourself what is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Can you see it?

The Zaher is only the tip of the iceberg. The Batin is the vast ocean and one must delve into the batin to fully appreciate our tariqah. After all the constitution does tell us that the purpose of our life is spiritual enlightenment which is of course the Batin.

Esoteric tradition is a Batini tradition.

[FreeLancer]

EVEN the word BATIN is not used in the Preamble.
Preamble prescribed the fundamental rules of our Tariqa. Till today I have not find any batin in Preamble, neither Imam uttered a single word about batin in Preamble. Your handy and easy formula is to relate all Tariqa issues with batin so that learners should dive and drown in the vast ocean of batin.

The word Batin may not be mentioned but the concept of Batin is mentioned:

The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision.

Ask yourself what is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Can you see it?

The Zaher is only the tip of the iceberg. The Batin is the vast ocean and one must delve into the batin to fully appreciate our tariqah. After all the constitution does tell us that the purpose of our life is spiritual enlightenment which is of course the Batin.

Esoteric tradition is a Batini tradition.

In Fatimid era Ismaili Da'is used the word batin to mention the inner meaning only, or ta'weel of Quran or explaining MUTASHABIHAAT in Quran. At that time it did not covered all the aspects of religion in comparison to modern era. Now a days every other Ismaili try to find the solution of sensitive religious issues in batin. When a person is clueless he will at once say ,oh find it in batin. Usage of word batin in our community is at high demand.
It is true Imam's most important job is to help salvation of his murids. We follow his teachings and Ta'lim which put a momin on path of enlightenment and salvation. It is not batini (hidden) Ta'lim but open and smooth so that each murid can understand.

[kmaherali]

In Fatimid era Ismaili Da'is used the word batin to mention the inner meaning only, or ta'weel of Quran or explaining MUTASHABIHAAT in Quran. At that time it did not covered all the aspects of religion in comparison to modern era. Now a days every other Ismaili try to find the solution of sensitive religious issues in batin. When a person is clueless he will at once say ,oh find it in batin. Usage of word batin in our community is at high demand.
It is true Imam's most important job is to help salvation of his murids. We follow his teachings and Ta'lim which put a momin on path of enlightenment and salvation. It is not batini (hidden) Ta'lim but open and smooth so that each murid can understand.

Talim is of course not hidden but the methods of Talim are Batini. They are not accessible to everyone. No all aspects of the Taim are smooth and understandable. For example the result of BUK are not comprehensible. Spiritual enlightenment and vision are not comprehensible. They have to be realized and experienced.

You mention the Fatimid era and the Constitution frequently. Do you realize that they are predicated upon revelations received by the Prophet. Ask yourself, were the revelations heard by the people? Aren't they Batini?

[FreeLancer]

In Fatimid era Ismaili Da'is used the word batin to mention the inner meaning only, or ta'weel of Quran or explaining MUTASHABIHAAT in Quran. At that time it did not covered all the aspects of religion in comparison to modern era. Now a days every other Ismaili try to find the solution of sensitive religious issues in batin. When a person is clueless he will at once say ,oh find it in batin. Usage of word batin in our community is at high demand.
It is true Imam's most important job is to help salvation of his murids. We follow his teachings and Ta'lim which put a momin on path of enlightenment and salvation. It is not batini (hidden) Ta'lim but open and smooth so that each murid can understand.

Talim is of course not hidden but the methods of Talim are Batini. They are not accessible to everyone. No all aspects of the Taim are smooth and understandable. For example the result of BUK are not comprehensible. Spiritual enlightenment and vision are not comprehensible. They have to be realized and experienced.

You mention the Fatimid era and the Constitution frequently. Do you realize that they are predicated upon revelations received by the Prophet. Ask yourself, were the revelations heard by the people? Aren't they Batini?

I usually mention Preamble itself of constitution which is rigid and basic for every Ismaili. But you keep indicating constitution to divert attention from Preamble. Constitution is not rigid. In 1998 Imam changed some clauses of constitution but did not touched Preamble. I understand you have some difficulty digesting Preamble.
If you think about something it is inside your brain but when you utter words or speak what ever in your brain comes out and is apparent, open, every one knows and that is zahir. Same way the words of revelation when Prophet uttered became zahir and not gupt or hidden.

[Admin]

I usually mention Preamble itself of constitution

There is already a thread for the Preamble. Above post will soon be deleted as well as other post which are relevant to other threads.

[FreeLancer]

I usually mention Preamble itself of constitution

There is already a thread for the Preamble. Above post will soon be deleted as well as other post which are relevant to other threads.

You honor, I just answered kmaherali's post.

[Admin]

yes and he replied to your post. I am not interested in wasting precious time which could be used to give more info to the users of this website instead of cleaning threads of foreign subjects.

here is a pattern to infect all the threads with a couple of repeat subject completely irrelevant to the thread. This is an organised Forum with multiple thread. Is it this difficult to understand?

[kmaherali]

I usually mention Preamble itself of constitution which is rigid and basic for every Ismaili. But you keep indicating constitution to divert attention from Preamble. Constitution is not rigid. In 1998 Imam changed some clauses of constitution but did not touched Preamble. I understand you have some difficulty digesting Preamble.
If you think about something it is inside your brain but when you utter words or speak what ever in your brain comes out and is apparent, open, every one knows and that is zahir. Same way the words of revelation when Prophet uttered became zahir and not gupt or hidden.

Isn't the preamble part of the constitution. So what is the difference if I say the preamble or if I say the constitution? If I say a reference is in Book A and if I say a reference is in Chapter C of Book A. What is the difference? We are talking of the same book.

Where did the revelations come from? Did they come out of his brain or from somewhere else? Why do we accept the words that came out of the Prophets mouth as the truth (Zaher)?

[FreeLancer]

I usually mention Preamble itself of constitution which is rigid and basic for every Ismaili. But you keep indicating constitution to divert attention from Preamble. Constitution is not rigid. In 1998 Imam changed some clauses of constitution but did not touched Preamble. I understand you have some difficulty digesting Preamble.
If you think about something it is inside your brain but when you utter words or speak what ever in your brain comes out and is apparent, open, every one knows and that is zahir. Same way the words of revelation when Prophet uttered became zahir and not gupt or hidden.

Isn't the preamble part of the constitution. So what is the difference if I say the preamble or if I say the constitution? If I say a reference is in Book A and if I say a reference is in Chapter C of Book A. What is the difference? We are talking of the same book.

Where did the revelations come from? Did they come out of his brain or from somewhere else? Why do we accept the words that came out of the Prophets mouth as the truth (Zaher)?

We are talking of same book but I am pin pointing a particular chapter which is most important, because Tenets of Ismailim are explained in that. You are shying to mention name of that chapter.
In Prophet's mind there should have been many things but when he uttered particular words which is law, is called zahir followed by Muslims. What we see, what we hear is important and not what is still in thinking process.

[kmaherali]

We are talking of same book but I am pin pointing a particular chapter which is most important, because Tenets of Ismailim are explained in that. You are shying to mention name of that chapter.
In Prophet's mind there should have been many things but when he uttered particular words which is law, is called zahir followed by Muslims. What we see, what we hear is important and not what is still in thinking process.

OK next time I will say preamble instead of constitution. To me it makes no difference.

Why do we accept what the Prophet uttered as the law? What is so special about him?

[FreeLancer]

We are talking of same book but I am pin pointing a particular chapter which is most important, because Tenets of Ismailim are explained in that. You are shying to mention name of that chapter.
In Prophet's mind there should have been many things but when he uttered particular words which is law, is called zahir followed by Muslims. What we see, what we hear is important and not what is still in thinking process.

OK next time I will say preamble instead of constitution. To me it makes no difference.

Why do we accept what the Prophet uttered as the law? What is so special about him?

What is so special? Let us see.
What he uttered about religion, ethical values, humanity values are laws.
What he said at Ghadir Khum was religious order.
What he uttered about Ali and his family is related to religious affairs.
Of course it is not law for example if he asked, Aysha give me a glass of water.

[kmaherali]

What is so special? Let us see.
What he uttered about religion, ethical values, humanity values are laws.
What he said at Ghadir Khum was religious order.
What he uttered about Ali and his family is related to religious affairs.
Of course it is not law for example if he asked, Aysha give me a glass of water.

We all know that. What I meant was: what was the basis of his authority? Where did the revelations come from? From his brain or elsewhere?

[FreeLancer]

What is so special? Let us see.
What he uttered about religion, ethical values, humanity values are laws.
What he said at Ghadir Khum was religious order.
What he uttered about Ali and his family is related to religious affairs.
Of course it is not law for example if he asked, Aysha give me a glass of water.

We all know that. What I meant was: what was the basis of his authority? Where did the revelations come from? From his brain or elsewhere?

When you think, from where the idea is coming?

[kmaherali]

When you think, from where the idea is coming?

For an ordinary person it is the brain/mind. What about the Prophet?

[FreeLancer]

When you think, from where the idea is coming?

For an ordinary person it is the brain/mind. What about the Prophet?

Prophet also had brain, but an advanced brain not comparable to any other brain.

[kmaherali]

Prophet also had brain, but an advanced brain not comparable to any other brain.

The brain is like a radio which is in tune with the mind/consciousness. The ordinary brain is in tune with ordinary consciousness and hence ordinary humans have partial intellects (aql-e-juz). The Prophet's brain on the other hand was in tune with the Divine/Supra consciousness and hence he had complete intellect (aql-e-kull).

[FreeLancer]

Prophet also had brain, but an advanced brain not comparable to any other brain.

The brain is like a radio which is in tune with the mind/consciousness. The ordinary brain is in tune with ordinary consciousness and hence ordinary humans have partial intellects (aql-e-juz). The Prophet's brain on the other hand was in tune with the Divine/Supra consciousness and hence he had complete intellect (aql-e-kull).

Of course in Ismaili terminology Noor e Muhammadi is 'aql e Kul.

[Admin]

Of course in Ismaili terminology Noor e Muhammadi is 'aql e Kul.

It would depend on which author you are reading...

[kmaherali]

It would depend on which author you are reading...

What would other authors say?

Read Corbin's Histoire de la Philosophie Islamique, he explains what different Ismaili authors wrote at different era about this topic.

[mahebubchatur]

Quote of the Week - Ismaili newsletter Al Akhtar

“[The Shi’a] reserve the right of interpretation of the Qur’an to the Imams from the progeny of the Prophet. As a religious principle, they place obedience to the Imams immediately after obedience to God and the Prophet. This belief is derived from the command in the Qur’an that Muslims obey God and the Prophet, and those vested with authority. When in doubt about the correct course to follow, they are to submit to the Imam’s judgment.”


“What is Shi‘a Islam?” by Dr. Farhad Daftary and Prof. Azim Nanji


Doctrines and Practices

The essence of Shi‘ism lies in the search for the true meaning of revelation in order to understand the purpose of life and human destiny.

By virtue of the authority (walaya) invested in Imam ‘Ali by the Prophet, each Imam of the time is the inheritor of the Prophet’s authority, the trustee of his legacy, and the guardian of the Qur’an.

The role of the Imam in guiding the path to spiritual self-realisation conveys the essence of the relationship between the Imam and his follower (murid), symbolised in the traditional pledge of allegiance (bay‘a) that each murid makes to the Imam of the time.

The replacement of the line of prophecy with that of Imamate, therefore, ensures the balance between the Shari‘a, the exoteric aspect of the faith, and the Haqiqa, its esoteric, spiritual essence. Neither the exoteric (zahir) nor the esoteric (batin) aspect of the religion obliterates the other.

The Imam is the path to the believer’s inward, spiritual elevation and is the religious authority that makes the Shari‘a relevant according to the needs of the time. This emphasis on an inner, spiritual life in harmony with the exoteric performance of the Shari‘a is an aspect of the faith that finds acceptance among many com­munities in both branches of Islam, whether Shi‘a or Sunni.
The Imamate thus enables believers to go beyond the apparent or outward form of the revelation in their search for its inner spirituality and meaning. Under the guidance of each Nizari Imam, the meaning of the Qur’an unfolds afresh in each age. The ultimate Shi‘a expectation is not a new revelation but the complete understanding of the spiritual meaning of the final revelation granted to the Prophet Muhammad. This constitutes the Shi‘a notion of Islam’s spiritual dynamism through the line of Imams, whose main role is to foster continuing submission to the Divine Command. This principle ensures the ever-continuing vitality of the Shari‘a, the normative law, and the practices derived from it. These practices are the foundation of Ja‘fari ­Imami Shi‘a jurisprudence, as elaborated by Imam Ja‘far al-Sadiq, who is accepted by both Imami and Ismaili Shi‘a Muslims as their Imam.
Both communities, accordingly, subscribe to the fundamentals of Islam and its core practices. They accept the Holy Qur’an, correctly interpreted, as the source of guidance for all times. They respect the Sunna of the Prophet Muhammad as reported via the ‘Alid Imams, in addition to the norms speci­fied by the Imams themselves. They reserve the right of interpretation of the Qur’an to the Imams from the progeny of the Prophet. As a religious princi­ple, they place obedience to the Imams immediately after obedience to God and the Prophet. This belief is derived from the command in the Qur’an that Muslims obey God and the Prophet, and those vested with authority. When in doubt about the correct course to follow, they are to submit to the Imam’s judgment. The Imams are the People of Remem­brance (Ahl al-Dhikr), endowed with the competent knowledge of the revealed message.
Shi‘as perform their congregational prayers in mosques, to which all Mus­lims go. In addition to the practices prescribed by the Shari‘a, the Nizari Ismailis observe their own distinctive practices such as supplicatory and intercessionary prayers (du‘a), meditative sessions of remembrance (dhikr), and the recitation of devotional poetry. Such practices usually take place in Ismaili Jamatkhanas (literally, ‘assembly–houses’). Ismaili assembly-houses are des­ignated by the Imam of the time for the use of murids who have given the bay‘a, the oath of allegiance, and whose bay‘a the Imam has accepted. As an integral part of the religious landscape of the Muslim world, Jamatkhanas are part of an institutional category that serves a number of Shi‘a and Sunni communities in their respective contexts. For many centuries, a prominent feature of the religious landscape of Islam has been gathering spaces that coexist in harmony with the mosque. Historically serving communities of dif­ferent interpretations and spiritual affiliations, these spaces range from the ribat, tikya, and zawiya of the Sufis to the Husayniyya and Jamatkhana of the Shi‘a.
The practices of the Nizari Ismailis have evolved over many centuries in a multiplicity of cultural milieus, stretching from North Africa and the Middle East, through Iran, Central Asia, Afghanistan, and China, to South Asia. The resulting diversity of these practices corresponds to the multiple cultural, linguistic, and literary traditions of the Nizari Ismailis, which reflects the pluralism of the of the Muslim Umma within the fundamental unity of Islam. This unity among Muslims is evident, for example, in their common practices derived from the Shari‘a and common festivals, such as ‘Id al-Fitr (the feast of fast‑breaking at the end of Ramadan) and Milad al-Nabi (the celebration of the Prophet Muhmmad’s birthday), which are celebrated by Muslims of all per­suasions. In addition, Shi‘a Muslims gather specifically for Shi‘a festivals such as ‘Id al-Ghadir, the commemoration of the event of Ghadir al-Khumm, where the Prophet designated Imam ‘Ali as his successor. This unity among Muslims has historically coexisted with the right of each school of Islamic thought to practice its particular interpretation of the central tenets of Islam.

https://iis.ac.uk/academic-articles/what-shi-islam

[shivaathervedi_3]

CHIRAGEY RA KE EEZAD BER FAROZAD
HER AA(N) KUS TUF ZAND REESHASH BISUZAD (FARSI)

SULTAN BAHU

Trans: The lamp which is illuminated by Allah (eezad), who ever try to extinguish will burn his beard (reesh).

NOOR E KHUDA HAI KUFR KI HARKAT PE KHANDAH ZAN
PHU(N)KO SE YEH CHIRAG BHUJAYA NA JAAI GA

MOWLANA ZAFAR ALI KHAN

[kmaherali]

THE SEATS OF THE ISMAILI IMAMAT: FROM MEDINA TO LISBON (632-2018)

https://ismailignosis.com/2018/07/11/th ... -632-2018/

[shivaathervedi_3]

THE SEATS OF THE ISMAILI IMAMAT: FROM MEDINA TO LISBON (632-2018)

https://ismailignosis.com/2018/07/11/th ... -632-2018/

With due respect to Ismaili gnosis without criticizing I want to clarify few things in his article;

Ismaili gnosis wrote;

As recent as 150 years ago, the living situation of the Ismaili Imams was not so fortunate – the Imams had no permanent residence and were constantly wandering from place to place in search of a safe haven. Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah described his own childhood lifestyle as “the life of gypsies”:

My first recollection is of camping in tents and of travelling with my father. We went through Kutchh, Kathiawar and Sind, and I can never forget the memories of those days when we had to halt every two or three hours in order not to tire the horses and mules and donkeys and camels that carried our luggage. Now, looking back, it seems to me that we led the life of gypsies; we were almost a gypsy family. We carried our food about, as very often we could not get it at the places through which we passed. Even water for drinking was brought, sometimes from Bombay or Karachi, in the form of soda water.

– Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III,
(quoted in Naoroji M. Dumasia, The Aga Khan and His Ancestors, 76)

Reply by Shiva;

This above quote does not mean that Imam Ali Shah had not seat of Imamat, of course the seat of Imamat was established in Bombay (Mumbai). The above quote of gypsies is not related to seat of Imamat but it was an account of camping or safari. Ismili gnosis in the following statement admitted that seat of Imamat of Imam Ali Shah was in Bombay.
47. Imam Aqa ‘Ali Shah Aga Khan II (1881-1885)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Bombay (India)

Ismaili gnosis wrote;

O King, certainly, in the way of the path
The threshold of your court became the Qibla of the world
(Inscription on the Casket of Imam Mustansir billah III (Shah Gharib Mirza) in Anjudan)

Reply by Shiva;
This above quote is debatable, how many Imam Mustansirbillah were and WHOSE COLLECTION OF PIDIYAAT IS? Is that by Imam Mustansirbillah second or third?

Ismaili gnosis wrote;

Countless Imams before Prophet Muhammad’s Mission (first human being to 632)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Most of the Imams in the lineage of Ishmael from Prophet Abraham to Prophet Muhammad lived in Arabia; the whereabouts of the Imams before Prophet Abraham are not precisely known and may have included Mesopotamia, Arabia, and even India.

Reply by Shiva;
The names of Imams mentioned in the lineage of Prophet Ismael to Prophet Muhammad were not Imams but were heads of tribes who were descendants of Prophet Ismael. In Shia and Sunni Muslim histories these names are common and were not Imams.

Ismail gnosis wrote;

7. Imam Muhammad b. Isma‘il (775-ca.806)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Medina, Khuzistan (Southwestern Persia)

8. Imam ‘Abdullah b. Muhammad al-Wafi (ca. 806-828)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Khuzistan (Southwestern Persia), Basra (Iraq), Salamiyya (Syria)

9. Imam Ahmad b. ‘Abdullah al-Taqi (828-ca. 870)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Salamiyya (Syria)

10. Imam al-Husayn b. ‘Ahmad al-Radi (ca. 870-ca. 880-81)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Salamiyya (Syria)

Reply by Shiva;

Regarding above quotes, the history of DAUR SATAR is obscure and we do not have proper accounts of Imam's residences, it is just assumptions.

Ismaili gnosis wrote;

20. Imam al-Hadi (1095 – ca. 1132)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Maghrib (Tunisia)

Reply by Shiva;

Imam Al Hadi was smuggled to Persia by Fidayyens of Hasan bin Sabbah, therefore seat of Imamt can be Alamout and not Tunisia.

Ismaili gnosis wrote;

46. Imam Hasan ‘Ali Shah Aga Khan I (1817-1881)
Seat or Residence of Imamat: Yazd (Central Persia), Qumm (Persia), Mahallat, Kirman, Jerruk (India), Bombay (India), Mausoleum in Hasanabad (India)

Reply by Shiva;

I think in above quote JERRUK in INDIA in mentioned mistakenly by gnosis. When Imam Hasan Ali Shah stationed at Jerruk it was part of Sindh as a separate entity, still now a days Jerruk is part of Sindh in Pakistan.

[kmaherali]

The Transformation of Imamology: The Ascension of the Imam in Ismaili Islam

Islamic Studies Colloquium
Wed, September 19, 2018 | CAL 516
12:00 PM - 1:00 PM

with Alyjan Daya, Departmental Honors Islamic Studies Graduate

The Islamic Studies Colloquium is an opportunity for students and faculty across the University to present research on the study of Islam and the Muslim world.

Colloquium meetings aim to provide presentation experience and constructive feedback on work in progress, as well as to foster discussion and a sense of cohort among the Islamic studies community on campus. Meetings are open to all UT community, and light refreshments may be served. The forum is coordinated by Dr. Hina Azam and Dr. Stephennie Mulder.

The Islamic Studies Colloquium Series is sponsored by the Islamic Studies Initiative and the Center for Middle Eastern Studies.

https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/mes/events/48048

[shivaathervedi_3]

ISMAILI GNOSTIC
April 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
The current Imam was asked in the Man Alive interview whether “is this some kind of divine authority” and his response was to not confuse religious authority with divinity. He added that the quran was the only miracle in Islam.

This response is true based on what’s explained the the article. The divine means uncaused and self-sufficient. The historical Imam is not divine. He’s the mazhar – the mirror of the Eternal Imam and the Eternal Imam is the first manifestation of the Divine, it is not God Himself. So the mazhar is not divine; the mazhar is ontologically “poor” like an empty mirror.

So the Imam is being completely truthful when he denied divinity because divinity doesn’t belong to the person of the Imam. It is merely reflected in and through him.

Stars of Heritage, please reflect. " So the mazhar is not divine" and " he denied divinity because divinity does not belong to the person of Imam".

[Admin]

ISMAILI GNOSTIC
April 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
The current Imam was asked in the Man Alive interview whether “is this some kind of divine authority” and his response was to not confuse religious authority with divinity. He added that the quran was the only miracle in Islam.

This has been already discussed umpteen times, please read the Forum discussion on the topic from beginning before posting again and again the same.

As for your question to IsmailiGnosis, it is better to ask them directly on their own website and move your discussion there.

[kmaherali]

ISMAILI GNOSTIC
April 22, 2016 at 8:19 pm
The current Imam was asked in the Man Alive interview whether “is this some kind of divine authority” and his response was to not confuse religious authority with divinity. He added that the quran was the only miracle in Islam.
.

This matter was discussed at:

Anecdotes -->Role of Miracles in Esoteric Traditions.

[kmaherali]

Anecdotes -->Role of Miracles in Esoteric Traditions.

The link is:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... highlight=