Who is a God?kmaherali wrote:So God is not seen ordinarily, so we should not believe in God!FreeLancer wrote:Ismaili premises are rational, seeing is believing.
MSMS in his Memoirs has said:FreeLancer wrote: Who is a God?
In theism, God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, while in deism, God is the creator, but not the sustainer, of the universe. In pantheism, God is the universe itself. In atheism, God is not believed to exist, while God is deemed unknown or unknowable within the context of agnosticism.
So you are saying that believing in God is a lie because we cannot see him? In your opinion there is no Batin but only Zaher?FreeLancer wrote: Prophets and Imams said 'don't lie" but we are forced to lie and accept there is God. No one has seen God, why to lie there is God!
JISS KO DEKHA BHI NAHI USS KO KHUDA KAHTEY HAI(N)
We have no choice but still want to satisfy ourselves, therefore called Him Nirinjin, Alakh, Anami, Agam Agochar......
Why HIJAAB? Is God a Sundari shy to show her face. We live in God but God is not with us. We move in God but God is moved away. We have our own being in God but He is not visible, strange.kmaherali wrote:So you are saying that believing in God is a lie because we cannot see him? In your opinion there is no Batin but only Zaher?FreeLancer wrote: Prophets and Imams said 'don't lie" but we are forced to lie and accept there is God. No one has seen God, why to lie there is God!
JISS KO DEKHA BHI NAHI USS KO KHUDA KAHTEY HAI(N)
We have no choice but still want to satisfy ourselves, therefore called Him Nirinjin, Alakh, Anami, Agam Agochar......
Mono Realism. How a person can realize God when He is not visible. I can not touch Him, can not see Him, can not smell His fragrance, He can't talk to me. When He created this universe, human beings then He should be helpfull. Look at millions of kids who try to find food in filthy dumpsters, and dirty places or women sell their virginity to feed their children.kmaherali wrote:MSMS in his Memoirs has said:FreeLancer wrote: Who is a God?
In theism, God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, while in deism, God is the creator, but not the sustainer, of the universe. In pantheism, God is the universe itself. In atheism, God is not believed to exist, while God is deemed unknown or unknowable within the context of agnosticism.
Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as mono-realism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allah-o-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul. Imam Hassan has explained the Islamic doctrine of God and the Universe by analogy with the sun and its reflection in the pool of a fountain; there is certainly a reflection or image of the sun, but with what poverty and with what little reality; how small and pale is the likeness between this impalpable image and the immense, blazing, white-hot glory of the celestial sphere itself. Allah is the sun; and the Universe, as we know it in all its magnitude, and time, with its power, are nothing more than the reflection of the Absolute in the mirror of the fountain.
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html
Given the nature of God defined by the Imam himself above, can God be seen ?
God is realized or seen through the development of inner eyes through Ibadat. In the testimonies thread of the DJ Deedars, someone has posted today an anecdote of a blind person who experienced Deedar even though he did not see the Imam by his eyes but felt his presence!FreeLancer wrote: Mono Realism. How a person can realize God when He is not visible. I can not touch Him, can not see Him, can not smell His fragrance, He can't talk to me. When He created this universe, human beings then He should be helpfull. Look at millions of kids who try to find food in filthy dumpsters, and dirty places or women sell their virginity to feed their children.
AUR BHI DUKH HAI(N) ZAMANEY MEY
KHUDA KO YAAD KARNEY KEE SIVA.
Pir Shahbuddin Shah explains in the True Meaning of Religion:FreeLancer wrote: Why HIJAAB? Is God a Sundari shy to show her face. We live in God but God is not with us. We move in God but God is moved away. We have our own being in God but He is not visible, strange.
I am not criticizing, sorry about that momin being blind. Was he blind by birth or lost his seeing power in his old age. He must have Imam's Didaar in his young age. By attending JK he should have learnt about Imam's coming and some family member or volunteer must have brought him at didaar hall.kmaherali wrote:God is realized or seen through the development of inner eyes through Ibadat. In the testimonies thread of the DJ Deedars, someone has posted today an anecdote of a blind person who experienced Deedar even though he did not see the Imam by his eyes but felt his presence!FreeLancer wrote: Mono Realism. How a person can realize God when He is not visible. I can not touch Him, can not see Him, can not smell His fragrance, He can't talk to me. When He created this universe, human beings then He should be helpfull. Look at millions of kids who try to find food in filthy dumpsters, and dirty places or women sell their virginity to feed their children.
AUR BHI DUKH HAI(N) ZAMANEY MEY
KHUDA KO YAAD KARNEY KEE SIVA.
Does that Hadith apply to all human beings? You wrote," One who does not know Imam, does not know God". What you have to say about 7.4 billion human beings. Majority pray to God. Goes to mosques, munders, churches, temples, and other worship places.kmaherali wrote:Pir Shahbuddin Shah explains in the True Meaning of Religion:FreeLancer wrote: Why HIJAAB? Is God a Sundari shy to show her face. We live in God but God is not with us. We move in God but God is moved away. We have our own being in God but He is not visible, strange.
Then realize the meaning of the hadith in which it is said that any one who dies without having known the Imam of his time, dies as an unbeliever, or idolater. Who does not know his Imam, does not know God.
As we have seen, people are different, and it is with regard to the difference of their mentality that any one talks to them in accordance with their capacity of understanding. Thus it was said to some of them that no eye can see Him, or that He is beyond comprehension even of the wisest, just as He is invisible. It is simply because their capacity of understanding does not grasp the truth. But that manifestation of the Greatness and of the Perfection of God, i.e. the Commander of the Faithful, "Ali, says: "I would never worship God if I had not seen Him".
........
Imam Ja'far Sadiq once replied to a man who asked him whether it is true that at the Day of Resurrection God will become visible to all?" Yes", -said he, -"He is visible even before that day. He is visible to His slaves from the day when He asked them: "am I not your Lord?" Do not you see Him?" The man who asked the question then replied: "O my Lord, I see thee! Give me the permission to tell this (to others) on thy authority". The Imam replied: "do not tell this to anybody, because people are stupid and ignorant, [39] they shall disbelieve you, regarding this as impiety (kufr)".
http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html
I believe that those who are sincere and who seek God will also get the recognition of Imamat whether physically or spiritually. Rumi was not an Ismaili but he called Hazarat Ali the Lion of God.FreeLancer wrote: Does that Hadith apply to all human beings? You wrote," One who does not know Imam, does not know God". What you have to say about 7.4 billion human beings. Majority pray to God. Goes to mosques, munders, churches, temples, and other worship places.
As you have been told repeatedly, Imamat has two facets: the Zaher and the Batin. According to the Zaher, the Imam worships like other human beings. According to Batin, he is unlimited.FreeLancer wrote: You quoted Ali Murtaza. He said according to Nahjul Balagha that 'Allah is beyond imagination'. Now let me comment on your quote, you wrote;
"the Commander of the Faithful, "Ali, says: "I would never worship God if I had not seen Him".
Karim you are negating your FIRM ASSERTION THAT ALI IS ALLAH.
Who is this God to whom Ali was worshiping??
Karim, three simple questions with reference to your above post.kmaherali wrote:I believe that those who are sincere and who seek God will also get the recognition of Imamat whether physically or spiritually. Rumi was not an Ismaili but he called Hazarat Ali the Lion of God.FreeLancer wrote: Does that Hadith apply to all human beings? You wrote," One who does not know Imam, does not know God". What you have to say about 7.4 billion human beings. Majority pray to God. Goes to mosques, munders, churches, temples, and other worship places.As you have been told repeatedly, Imamat has two facets: the Zaher and the Batin. According to the Zaher, the Imam worships like other human beings. According to Batin, he is unlimited.FreeLancer wrote: You quoted Ali Murtaza. He said according to Nahjul Balagha that 'Allah is beyond imagination'. Now let me comment on your quote, you wrote;
"the Commander of the Faithful, "Ali, says: "I would never worship God if I had not seen Him".
Karim you are negating your FIRM ASSERTION THAT ALI IS ALLAH.
Who is this God to whom Ali was worshiping??
From the Zaheri aspect, he is a Muslim and bows to Allah as all Muslims do.FreeLancer wrote: Karim, three simple questions with reference to your above post.
1. In zahir Imam worships to whom and prostrate in front of who?
From the Batini aspect, no prostrations are required. Namaz happens automatically as per Ginan verse:FreeLancer wrote: 2. Same way in batin he prostrate in front who?
You asked me whether non-Ismailis recognize the Imam and I said they do and gave Rumi as an example.FreeLancer wrote: 3. You quoted Rumi, calling Ali as lion of God. That what I have been saying, Ali is ASADULLAH. Now where is fault line?
I observed my Imam when he performed Namaz. Seeing is believing (many photos are available). According to you in zaheri Namaz he bows to Allah and in batini Namaz there is no Allah so no prostration.kmaherali wrote:From the Zaheri aspect, he is a Muslim and bows to Allah as all Muslims do.FreeLancer wrote: Karim, three simple questions with reference to your above post.
1. In zahir Imam worships to whom and prostrate in front of who?From the Batini aspect, no prostrations are required. Namaz happens automatically as per Ginan verse:FreeLancer wrote: 2. Same way in batin he prostrate in front who?
Eji panth re panth nathi manti,
Gai baavantarne balae,
Roza, namaz ane bandage
To mari nirantar thaye…Mune Didar
O momins! I do not follow various other paths. Gone is the problem of the 52 (pitfalls). The fasts, namaz and bandagi happen all the time.You asked me whether non-Ismailis recognize the Imam and I said they do and gave Rumi as an example.FreeLancer wrote: 3. You quoted Rumi, calling Ali as lion of God. That what I have been saying, Ali is ASADULLAH. Now where is fault line?
From the Batin the Imam is one with God which is the purpose of our existence. If you are one with God, then to whom do you bow to?FreeLancer wrote: I observed my Imam when he performed Namaz. Seeing is believing (many photos are available). According to you in zaheri Namaz he bows to Allah and in batini Namaz there is no Allah so no prostration.
The verse that I quoted is from the Ginan: Mune deedhaa Didaar Mowlae - Mowla has granted me his Deedar. This Ginan explains the state of having had the spiritual enlightenment (Fanna fi Allah). In the verse that I quoted, after the Deedar, namaz, roza, bandagi happen spontaneously and continuously.FreeLancer wrote: The Ginan part you mentioned explains with roza, namaz, bandagi a person can be saved from 52 pitfalls (bad deeds), which Imam talks about Islamic and Quranic ethical values.
You wrote,"From batin Imam is one with God". Now look at your quote, Imam is one with God. Means these are two different entities merging with each other. Stlll, though banda merge with God, he can not claim to be God. Drop can not compete with ocean. He is Allah who with His karam, joud wa sakha, and rahmat accepted that banda in His chhatar chhaya. Let us take an example; if kmaherali with grace of God is fana, will he stop reciting Du'a and stop saying Allahuma laka sujudi wata'ati?kmaherali wrote:From the Batin the Imam is one with God which is the purpose of our existence. If you are one with God, then to whom do you bow to?FreeLancer wrote: I observed my Imam when he performed Namaz. Seeing is believing (many photos are available). According to you in zaheri Namaz he bows to Allah and in batini Namaz there is no Allah so no prostration.The verse that I quoted is from the Ginan: Mune deedhaa Didaar Mowlae - Mowla has granted me his Deedar. This Ginan explains the state of having had the spiritual enlightenment (Fanna fi Allah). In the verse that I quoted, after the Deedar, namaz, roza, bandagi happen spontaneously and continuously.FreeLancer wrote: The Ginan part you mentioned explains with roza, namaz, bandagi a person can be saved from 52 pitfalls (bad deeds), which Imam talks about Islamic and Quranic ethical values.
Since the Imam is himself Fanna, then for him prostrations happen all the time!
I only said that he is one with God because he leads others to become one with God. If he leads others to become one with God, logically he himself must be one with God. It is only in this sense that I said he is one with God, otherwise he is the Mazhar and always God.FreeLancer wrote: You wrote,"From batin Imam is one with God". Now look at your quote, Imam is one with God. Means these are two different entities merging with each other. Stlll, though banda merge with God, he can not claim to be God. Drop can not compete with ocean. He is Allah who with His karam, joud wa sakha, and rahmat accepted that banda in His chhatar chhaya. Let us take an example; if kmaherali with grace of God is fana, will he stop reciting Du'a and stop saying Allahuma laka sujudi wata'ati?
You wrote,"... if he leads others to become one with God...", means Imam is intercessor and not God.kmaherali wrote:I only said that he is one with God because he leads others to become one with God. If he leads others to become one with God, logically he himself must be one with God. It is only in this sense that I said he is one with God, otherwise he is the Mazhar and always God.FreeLancer wrote: You wrote,"From batin Imam is one with God". Now look at your quote, Imam is one with God. Means these are two different entities merging with each other. Stlll, though banda merge with God, he can not claim to be God. Drop can not compete with ocean. He is Allah who with His karam, joud wa sakha, and rahmat accepted that banda in His chhatar chhaya. Let us take an example; if kmaherali with grace of God is fana, will he stop reciting Du'a and stop saying Allahuma laka sujudi wata'ati?
When the drop becomes the Ocean, it is no more a drop. It dissolves its identity as a drop.
If kmaherali becomes the ocean, the need to recite Dua for salvation will not be there. It is for the sake of others he will do so, just as the Prophet did not need to say his Namaz for his own salvation. It was to show others the method.
He is ShahPir or Gurnar at all times and hence he can function as an intercessor if he does not appoint someone else as the Pir. At present he is both the intercessor (Pir) and God (Shah).FreeLancer wrote: You wrote,"... if he leads others to become one with God...", means Imam is intercessor and not God.
When drop merges with ocean, it is humbleness and niazmandi will never claim to be God.
But in the beginning Prophet used to stay many days in cave Hira for zikr and fikr.
Of course Imam is shah, but there is one above shah that is shahensha means Allah.kmaherali wrote:He is ShahPir or Gurnar at all times and hence he can function as an intercessor if he does not appoint someone else as the Pir. At present he is both the intercessor (Pir) and God (Shah).FreeLancer wrote: You wrote,"... if he leads others to become one with God...", means Imam is intercessor and not God.
When drop merges with ocean, it is humbleness and niazmandi will never claim to be God.
But in the beginning Prophet used to stay many days in cave Hira for zikr and fikr.
Absolutely the one who has become the Ocean will never claim that he is God. In fact in his BUK Farmans the Imam discourages people to articulate their experience to others.
The Prophet used to spend time in zikr and fikr as they are aspects of the search that needed to be expressed to teach humanity about them.
I haven't come across the word shahensha in our literature, but according to the Ginans Shah is Allah as per verse:FreeLancer wrote: Of course Imam is shah, but there is one above shah that is shahensha means Allah.
Prophet knew all aspects of humanity before sitting in Hira.
The word shahensha may not be used in Ginanic literature but is available in Urdu, Farsi, Sindhi, Gujrati and other languages of subcontinent.kmaherali wrote:I haven't come across the word shahensha in our literature, but according to the Ginans Shah is Allah as per verse:FreeLancer wrote: Of course Imam is shah, but there is one above shah that is shahensha means Allah.
Prophet knew all aspects of humanity before sitting in Hira.
ejee aal alee islaamshaah raajaa, allaah ehee imaam
peer bhanne sadardeen kahet kabeerdeen
mere momaneku(n) bahesht makaan..........illaahee...........17
Mawlana Islamshaah who is the progeny of Aly is the King. Allah is indeed the Imaam.
This is taught by Peer Sadardeen and is stated (confirmed) by Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen
who says: "My momins will have an abode in paradise" (if they follow the Imaams).
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22819
Do you believe Prophet Muhammad was illiterate?kmaherali wrote:How do you know that? Wasn't he called ummi (illiterate)?FreeLancer wrote: Prophet knew all aspects of humanity before sitting in Hira.
Words used in other contexts should not be of concern to us. What matters is whether they are part of our tradition.FreeLancer wrote: The word shahensha may not be used in Ginanic literature but is available in Urdu, Farsi, Sindhi, Gujrati and other languages of subcontinent.
There had been discussions on the Ginanic phrase you quoted," Allah eehi Imam' in ITREBS.
Originally the wordings of this particular line was," Aal e Ali Islam shah raja Allah so hi Imam", means " Sri Islam Shah who is Aal e Nabi is in fact Imam". The word 'so hi' was replaced by some one in printing edition with 'eehi' before partition. The reason is because this Ginan starts with praise of Allah. Allah eek khasam sabhu ka...
Prophet started sitting in cave Hira at around age 35.kmaherali wrote:Not at all. I wanted to know your basis for saying he knew everything about humanity when he was at Hira.FreeLancer wrote: Do you believe Prophet Muhammad was illiterate?
Move this discussion toFreeLancer wrote: From the young age Prophet'a reputation as Amin and Sadiq sky rocketed.
If he was loved and admired by everyone, why was he persecuted and had to leave Mecca for Medina? What do you mean by divinely person?FreeLancer wrote: Prophet started sitting in cave Hira at around age 35.
From the young age Prophet'a reputation as Amin and Sadiq sky rocketed. He was loved and admired by almost every one. By birth he was divinely person. He use to help every one and knew the problems of humanity and common persons. Ethically he was highly appreciated.