Second Article of Preamble of Ismaili Constitution.

[Admin]

There is no mention of 50 Pirs in Preamble or in our Du'a which we recite 3 times a day.

There is also no mention of your father's name in the Preamble, does it mean you don't have a father? Some of your logic seems to come from outer-space or from the garbage dump. choose one.

[kmaherali]

Please note there is no mention of cycles in Preamble. Cycle philosophy was developed in Fatimid era, and in couple of your posts you mentioned that Fatmid era philosophy is not applicable now a days.
We are living in Present Imam's time and follow what he guides. There is no mention of 50 Pirs in Preamble or in our Du'a which we recite 3 times a day.

The Preamble is for public consumption. We follow what the Imam tells us in his Farmans such as the Noor of Imamat is everpresent and following the faith of our forefathers.

What did our forefathers recite in their Dua for centuries?

[shivaathervedi]

There is no mention of 50 Pirs in Preamble or in our Du'a which we recite 3 times a day.

There is also no mention of your father's name in the Preamble, does it mean you don't have a father? Some of your logic seems to come from outer-space or from the garbage dump. choose one.

It is disgusting. I think you have lost your mind by taking name of father to show your scholarship. Is this your standard of khoja ethical values. It is not tolerated.

[shivaathervedi]

Please note there is no mention of cycles in Preamble. Cycle philosophy was developed in Fatimid era, and in couple of your posts you mentioned that Fatmid era philosophy is not applicable now a days.
We are living in Present Imam's time and follow what he guides. There is no mention of 50 Pirs in Preamble or in our Du'a which we recite 3 times a day.

The Preamble is for public consumption. We follow what the Imam tells us in his Farmans such as the Noor of Imamat is everpresent and following the faith of our forefathers.

What did our forefathers recite in their Dua for centuries?

What we recite now a days in Du'a is ALIYULLAH, and in one of your posts you gave its meaning," ALI IS FROM ALLAH ". Re visit your that post.

[Admin]

It is disgusting. I think you have lost your mind by taking name of father to show your scholarship. Is this your standard of khoja ethical values. It is not tolerated.

The preamble and the Constitution can not name each and everything, as Hazar Imam said, the Constitution is a flexible document where the spirit is more important that the written word.

It does not mention your father and it does not mention many other things, does that mean that what is not mentioned does not exist. This is your logic and therefore your way of interpreting thing which is crooked. What I wrote therefore stands.

[Admin]

What we recite now a days in Du'a is ALIYULLAH, and in one of your posts you gave its meaning," ALI IS FROM ALLAH ". Re visit your that post.

Your interpretation is wrong and this is already debated in another thread, please do not keep mixing all your issues here.

This is discussed in the following threads

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 79&start=0

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 35&start=0

[shivaathervedi]

It is disgusting. I think you have lost your mind by taking name of father to show your scholarship. Is this your standard of khoja ethical values. It is not tolerated.

The preamble and the Constitution can not name each and everything, as Hazar Imam said, the Constitution is a flexible document where the spirit is more important that the written word.

It does not mention your father and it does not mention many other things, does that mean that what is not mentioned does not exist. This is your logic and therefore your way of interpreting thing which is crooked. What I wrote therefore stands.

Preamble is the foundation of Ismaili Tariqa. It has mentioned the tenets of Islam and Ismailim. Till today Satpunthi khojas are unable to digest it.
Do not worry about my father, consider my father as your father, I don't mind.

[Admin]

You have taken as if I have insulted your father which is denied. But I am glad about your feeling towards your father because it will help you understand how we Ismaili feel when you have repeatedly insulted our spiritual father, his community and his time immemorial teachings.

[shivaathervedi]

You have taken as if I have insulted your father which is denied. But I am glad about your feeling towards your father because it will help you understand how we Ismaili feel when you have repeatedly insulted our spiritual father, his community and his time immemorial teachings.

I never dare to insult Hazar Imam. I have mentioned couple of times that Ali is every thing for me but Allah, and that I am following teachings of our Du'a and Preamble, these two i.e Du'a and Preamble are given by Imam of the time.
I do not mind if some one says Ali is Allah that is his/her faith. I am discussing just the current documents. I believe educated Ismailis are broad minded and not conservative and narrow minded.

[kmaherali]

Preamble is the foundation of Ismaili Tariqa. It has mentioned the tenets of Islam and Ismailim. Till today Satpunthi khojas are unable to digest it.
Do not worry about my father, consider my father as your father, I don't mind.

If you read the preamble carefully it states:

Whereas

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.

Item (A) refers to Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims. Item (B) refers to Shia doctrine which is for all Shias. There is a difference between Shia Imami Ismailis and the general Shias which item (B) refers to just as there is a difference between Shias and Sunnis, we have different dcotrines.

Item (F) refers to the Talim of the Imam to light the path of murids to spiritual enlightenment and vision. The Talim of the Imam is not based upon the interpretation of the Message. It is continuous and independent of the Message.

Ask yourself: What is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Isn't it Fanna fi Allah? If so the Imam himself must be at all times Fanna and hence God. That is the difference between Ismailis and the rest of the Shia's. The Imam's presence must be eternal. He was there before the Prophet and he is always after the Prophet. There cannot be any question about him being appointed by the Prophet.

[kmaherali]

I never dare to insult Hazar Imam. I have mentioned couple of times that Ali is every thing for me but Allah, and that I am following teachings of our Du'a and Preamble, these two i.e Du'a and Preamble are given by Imam of the time.
I do not mind if some one says Ali is Allah that is his/her faith. I am discussing just the current documents. I believe educated Ismailis are broad minded and not conservative and narrow minded.

Exactly, there is diversity within our Tariqah and hence you are entitled to your beliefs so long as you recognize the authority of the Imam which is shared by all Ismailis.

However there are others who accept the latest Farman of the Imam to follow the faith of their forefathers. In my case, my forefathers believed in the everpresence of Imamat - Ali Sahi Allah. So that is my belief.

As the Imam tells us, diversity is strength and through different interpretations wisdom emerges encompassing all interpretations.

[shivaathervedi]

I never dare to insult Hazar Imam. I have mentioned couple of times that Ali is every thing for me but Allah, and that I am following teachings of our Du'a and Preamble, these two i.e Du'a and Preamble are given by Imam of the time.
I do not mind if some one says Ali is Allah that is his/her faith. I am discussing just the current documents. I believe educated Ismailis are broad minded and not conservative and narrow minded.

Exactly, there is diversity within our Tariqah and hence you are entitled to your beliefs so long as you recognize the authority of the Imam which is shared by all Ismailis.

However there are others who accept the latest Farman of the Imam to follow the faith of their forefathers. In my case, my forefathers believed in the everpresence of Imamat - Ali Sahi Allah. So that is my belief.

As the Imam tells us, diversity is strength and through different interpretations wisdom emerges encompassing all interpretations.

Imam uses the word diversity for cultural diversification and not doctrinal.
Regarding faith of forefathers, I have mentioned before that faith of my or yours or any one is same. First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.

[shivaathervedi]

Preamble is the foundation of Ismaili Tariqa. It has mentioned the tenets of Islam and Ismailim. Till today Satpunthi khojas are unable to digest it.
Do not worry about my father, consider my father as your father, I don't mind.

If you read the preamble carefully it states:

Whereas

(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

(F) Historically and in accordance with Ismaili tradition, the Imam of the time is concerned with spiritual advancement as well as improvement of the quality of life of his murids. The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision. In temporal matters, the Imam guides the murids, and motivates them to develop their potential.

Item (A) refers to Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims. Item (B) refers to Shia doctrine which is for all Shias. There is a difference between Shia Imami Ismailis and the general Shias which item (B) refers to just as there is a difference between Shias and Sunnis, we have different dcotrines.

Item (F) refers to the Talim of the Imam to light the path of murids to spiritual enlightenment and vision. The Talim of the Imam is not based upon the interpretation of the Message. It is continuous and independent of the Message.

Ask yourself: What is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Isn't it Fanna fi Allah? If so the Imam himself must be at all times Fanna and hence God. That is the difference between Ismailis and the rest of the Shia's. The Imam's presence must be eternal. He was there before the Prophet and he is always after the Prophet. There cannot be any question about him being appointed by the Prophet.

1. Do you believe word by word artilce A of Preamble. There is no mention of Ali in Kalima.
2. Shia doctrines are same for all Shi'an e Ali because they believe in concept of Imamah and Mowla Ali as first Imam, and Ismailis being Shias are common in ideolody of Imamat with other Shias.
3. In article B words are clear that ' the holy Prophet designated and appointed his cousin and son in law Hazrat Mowlana Ali Amirul mu'mineen to be the FIRST IMAM to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message'. It shows Ali has to continue mission of Prophet Muhammad to guide murids.
4. Imam's Ta'lim to murids NEVER goes beyond the message of Quran. Obviously who will follow and obey the guidance of Imam will be on path of enlightenment.
5. Your following statement is void, You wrote:
'What is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Isn't it FANA FI ALLAH? If so the Imam himself must be at all times fana and hence God'. My question is, fana fi Allah means a person merge spiritually with Allah means these are two different entities. Secondly if Imam is ALL TIMES FANA IN HIGHER ENTITY still he can't be called God, because it is the mercy of God Who accepted the blessed and enlightened soul willingly and happilly when the soul qualified to be merged.
6. Noor e mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi are from primordial times. They are not seperated. Just to say Ali was before Prophet is not appropriate.
ALI MUHAMMAD SACHA RE KALIMA.
Rumi said:
GAR JUDA DAANI ALI AZ MUSTAFA
DUSHMAN E JAANET KHUDAI KIBRIYA AST
If you think Ali is seperate from Muhammad Mustafa then Allah will become enenmy of you.
7. If the Preamble is for the non Ismailis as you dubbed 'zahiri garb' then why in 1986 the Preamble was read and explained in all JKs, and why it was insisted that not only all jamaits but particularly YOUTH should pay attention and understand.

[shivaathervedi]

ISMAILI OATH OF OFFICE ACCORDING TO CONSTITUTION:

BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM

I, (name) having in accordance with the constitution of the Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims been appointed (post, namely President, Chairman, Honrary Secretary or Member) of (name of Body) do here by solemnly and sicerely reiterate my absolute faith in, and spiritual allegiance and devotion to Mowlana Hazar Imam Shah Karim Al Hussaini His Highness Prince Aga Khan.

FURTHER I MAKE SOLEMN OATH IN THE NAME OF ALLAH AND SAY:

1. that I shall protect and defend the Ismaili Constitution and the Rule and Regulations made there under;
2. that I shall perform with absolute honesty, integrity, devotion, and diligence, and to best of my ability, all duties and obligations entrusted to me, and;
3. that I shall not disclose any confidential matters or proceedings pertaining to my said office.

Dated at (place)... this (day of month)... day of (month)... 20 (year)

(Signature)

[kmaherali]

Imam uses the word diversity for cultural diversification and not doctrinal.
Regarding faith of forefathers, I have mentioned before that faith of my or yours or any one is same. First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.

Diversity is of tradition and tradition involves doctrinal matters as well such as the Imam giving direction on Tariqah matters. Below is an excerpt from the Farman on diversity...

"Our Jamat has a living Imam and it is our tradition, it is our belief, that it is the Imam of the Time that gives guidance and direction in masters concerning the Tariqah. I wish it therefore to be well understood that I will continue to give guidance on matters concerning the Tariqah, that I will give you the direction which I believe is the direction which you should follow and that in looking at the Jamat around the world, I will be conscious of differences of tradition and I will note them. I will reflect about them. I will look at them with love and affection. But I will also, where it is necessary, make adjustments to the fact that our world is changing because that is the role, that is what the Imam of the Time is to do for the Jamat."

If the diversity was simply about culture and languages, it would not be necessary for the Imam to involve himself. But it is also of traditions and hence for the Imam to gives direction.

[kmaherali]

I cannot edit my post. The above Farman was made in Mwanza Oct 6th 1988.

[kmaherali]

First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.

We are not on the same page because you don't accept ALI SAHI ALLAH that was used by our forefathers in their religious rites and ceremonies including Dua.

[kmaherali]

1. Do you believe word by word artilce A of Preamble. There is no mention of Ali in Kalima.

As I have continuously said, the Constitution reflects the Zaher of our Tariqah and hence it will not contain the Batin matters which are meant for the Jamat only. MHI has told us continuously to build bridges with other tariqahs of Islam. So the article A is a bridge-building statement with other Muslims. You cannot build bridges by showing that you are different. The Shahada binds all Muslims, so we accept the Shahada.

However from the Batin, we still add Amirul Momineen... in our Kalima that we recite in the Dua.

If our Constitution was meant to define our practices, how come the Kalima that we recite still includes Aliyul Amirul Momineen...

2. Shia doctrines are same for all Shi'an e Ali because they believe in concept of Imamah and Mowla Ali as first Imam, and Ismailis being Shias are common in ideolody of Imamat with other Shias.

There are some doctrines that are the same and others are not the same. For example most Shias do not believe in the living Imam.

3. In article B words are clear that ' the holy Prophet designated and appointed his cousin and son in law Hazrat Mowlana Ali Amirul mu'mineen to be the FIRST IMAM to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message'. It shows Ali has to continue mission of Prophet Muhammad to guide murids.

This is a general Shia doctriine to build bridges with other Shias - the Zaher. Within our tradition we know that Imamat has always existed.

4. Imam's Ta'lim to murids NEVER goes beyond the message of Quran. Obviously who will follow and obey the guidance of Imam will be on path of enlightenment.

Tell me how in how many Farmans have you heard or read that the Imam says: "This Farman refers to this Ayat of the Qur'an". ? Practically never!

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

Divine guidance refers to the Tal'im. It is not interpretation but guidance itself.

5. Your following statement is void, You wrote:
'What is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Isn't it FANA FI ALLAH? If so the Imam himself must be at all times fana and hence God'. My question is, fana fi Allah means a person merge spiritually with Allah means these are two different entities. Secondly if Imam is ALL TIMES FANA IN HIGHER ENTITY still he can't be called God, because it is the mercy of God Who accepted the blessed and enlightened soul willingly and happilly when the soul qualified to be merged.

Fanna fi Allah means, the difference disappaears and what remains is only one entity.

ejee hamtam preet ba(n)dhaanneeyaa(n), ane hamtam bolyaa bol
hamtam donu(n) saa(n)hiyaa ek hay
saa(n)hiyaa hamsu(n) paddadaa khol...........................4

I and You are bound by love, and I and You have given each other a word (promise).
I and You Lord are one, Lord open the curtain (veil) for me
(so that I may have Your Vision).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23136

6. Noor e mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi are from primordial times. They are not seperated. Just to say Ali was before Prophet is not appropriate.
ALI MUHAMMAD SACHA RE KALIMA.
Rumi said:
GAR JUDA DAANI ALI AZ MUSTAFA
DUSHMAN E JAANET KHUDAI KIBRIYA AST
If you think Ali is seperate from Muhammad Mustafa then Allah will become enenmy of you.

The Imam at all times is the Shah Pir. Hence he is always the bearer of the Noor of Piratan. Noor of Muhammad and Noor of Ali are one in this Respect. However the Imam is also the Shah which is the Bearer of the Essence. Mazhar i zaat illahi.

7. If the Preamble is for the non Ismailis as you dubbed 'zahiri garb' then why in 1986 the Preamble was read and explained in all JKs, and why it was insisted that not only all jamaits but particularly YOUTH should pay attention and understand.

I did not say that it is meant for non-Ismailis. I said it is accessible to non-Ismailis as well.

[shivaathervedi]

Imam uses the word diversity for cultural diversification and not doctrinal.
Regarding faith of forefathers, I have mentioned before that faith of my or yours or any one is same. First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.

Diversity is of tradition and tradition involves doctrinal matters as well such as the Imam giving direction on Tariqah matters. Below is an excerpt from the Farman on diversity...

"Our Jamat has a living Imam and it is our tradition, it is our belief, that it is the Imam of the Time that gives guidance and direction in masters concerning the Tariqah. I wish it therefore to be well understood that I will continue to give guidance on matters concerning the Tariqah, that I will give you the direction which I believe is the direction which you should follow and that in looking at the Jamat around the world, I will be conscious of differences of tradition and I will note them. I will reflect about them. I will look at them with love and affection. But I will also, where it is necessary, make adjustments to the fact that our world is changing because that is the role, that is what the Imam of the Time is to do for the Jamat."

If the diversity was simply about culture and languages, it would not be necessary for the Imam to involve himself. But it is also of traditions and hence for the Imam to gives direction.

Yes it is Imam's responsibilty to give directions on Tariqa matters.
But what about CHIRAG E ROSHAN? It is a traditional issue and not a doctrinal. It is not practiced by khojas of subcontinent origin.

[shivaathervedi]

First we all believe in Imam and also we believe 'ATIULLAH WA 'ATIUR RASUL WA ULIL AMR I.E IMAM. So forefather's faith wise we are on same page, no problem.

We are not on the same page because you don't accept ALI SAHI ALLAH that was used by our forefathers in their religious rites and ceremonies including Dua.

But that sentence ALI SAHI ALLAH was replaced by MSMS as ALIYULLAH in revised Du'a in 1950 and the meaning in ITREB books is ' ALI IS FROM ALLAH', which is taught in RCs. WHAT YOUTH TO FOLLOW? Formula changed according to time, so the meaning.

[Admin]

Discussion on Ali Sahi Allah should not happen in this thread therefore it will be deleted.

Please move your post in the appropriate thread before it is deleted.

[kmaherali]

Yes it is Imam's responsibilty to give directions on Tariqa matters.
But what about CHIRAG E ROSHAN? It is a traditional issue and not a doctrinal. It is not practiced by khojas of subcontinent origin.

Chirag e Roshan is a tradition that has evolved within the context of Nair Khusraw in the Central Asian jamats. A tradition involves doctrinal matters as well. In the Chirag e Roshan essential aspects of our doctrine are highlighted:

"It appears in the Northern Area of Pakistan that a white cloth is spread on the ground and a lamp (chiragh) is burned in the middle. No other light is allowed to be kept or used as long as this lamp remains burning. The Koranic verses and other religious formula are recited while preparing the wicks of the lamp and inserting the oil made of the fat of sacrificial animal. With loud chanting of salwat, the qadi stands in front of the khalifa (headman) and places the lamp down again three times. It exhorts the Oneness of Divine Light in the universe, but has three relations: the relation to God, the Prophet and the Imam of the age. When the lamp is kindled, the believers deduce that the Imam is the bearer of the living Light of God on earth."

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ght=chirag

It is not practiced by the Khojas because it did not evolve in their tradition. Hence there is diversity of tradition within the Jamat.

[kmaherali]

But that sentence ALI SAHI ALLAH was replaced by MSMS as ALIYULLAH in revised Du'a in 1950 and the meaning in ITREB books is ' ALI IS FROM ALLAH', which is taught in RCs. WHAT YOUTH TO FOLLOW? Formula changed according to time, so the meaning.

Whether it was replaced or not, the fact is that our forefathers practiced it for centuries under the sanction of the Imams.

This is not the thread for discussion as to the reason for the replacement and the appropriateness of Aliyullah and it's correct meaning. It has been discussed elsewhere.

This thread is about the faith of our forefathers. It has been discussed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=90

Page 4 onwards

[shivaathervedi]

1. Do you believe word by word artilce A of Preamble. There is no mention of Ali in Kalima.

As I have continuously said, the Constitution reflects the Zaher of our Tariqah and hence it will not contain the Batin matters which are meant for the Jamat only. MHI has told us continuously to build bridges with other tariqahs of Islam. So the article A is a bridge-building statement with other Muslims. You cannot build bridges by showing that you are different. The Shahada binds all Muslims, so we accept the Shahada.

However from the Batin, we still add Amirul Momineen... in our Kalima that we recite in the Dua.

If our Constitution was meant to define our practices, how come the Kalima that we recite still includes Aliyul Amirul Momineen...

2. Shia doctrines are same for all Shi'an e Ali because they believe in concept of Imamah and Mowla Ali as first Imam, and Ismailis being Shias are common in ideolody of Imamat with other Shias.

There are some doctrines that are the same and others are not the same. For example most Shias do not believe in the living Imam.

3. In article B words are clear that ' the holy Prophet designated and appointed his cousin and son in law Hazrat Mowlana Ali Amirul mu'mineen to be the FIRST IMAM to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message'. It shows Ali has to continue mission of Prophet Muhammad to guide murids.

This is a general Shia doctriine to build bridges with other Shias - the Zaher. Within our tradition we know that Imamat has always existed.

4. Imam's Ta'lim to murids NEVER goes beyond the message of Quran. Obviously who will follow and obey the guidance of Imam will be on path of enlightenment.

Tell me how in how many Farmans have you heard or read that the Imam says: "This Farman refers to this Ayat of the Qur'an". ? Practically never!

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

Divine guidance refers to the Tal'im. It is not interpretation but guidance itself.

5. Your following statement is void, You wrote:
'What is spiritual enlightenment and vision? Isn't it FANA FI ALLAH? If so the Imam himself must be at all times fana and hence God'. My question is, fana fi Allah means a person merge spiritually with Allah means these are two different entities. Secondly if Imam is ALL TIMES FANA IN HIGHER ENTITY still he can't be called God, because it is the mercy of God Who accepted the blessed and enlightened soul willingly and happilly when the soul qualified to be merged.

Fanna fi Allah means, the difference disappaears and what remains is only one entity.

ejee hamtam preet ba(n)dhaanneeyaa(n), ane hamtam bolyaa bol
hamtam donu(n) saa(n)hiyaa ek hay
saa(n)hiyaa hamsu(n) paddadaa khol...........................4

I and You are bound by love, and I and You have given each other a word (promise).
I and You Lord are one, Lord open the curtain (veil) for me
(so that I may have Your Vision).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23136

6. Noor e mustafvi and Noor e Murtazvi are from primordial times. They are not seperated. Just to say Ali was before Prophet is not appropriate.
ALI MUHAMMAD SACHA RE KALIMA.
Rumi said:
GAR JUDA DAANI ALI AZ MUSTAFA
DUSHMAN E JAANET KHUDAI KIBRIYA AST
If you think Ali is seperate from Muhammad Mustafa then Allah will become enenmy of you.

The Imam at all times is the Shah Pir. Hence he is always the bearer of the Noor of Piratan. Noor of Muhammad and Noor of Ali are one in this Respect. However the Imam is also the Shah which is the Bearer of the Essence. Mazhar i zaat illahi.

7. If the Preamble is for the non Ismailis as you dubbed 'zahiri garb' then why in 1986 the Preamble was read and explained in all JKs, and why it was insisted that not only all jamaits but particularly YOUTH should pay attention and understand.

I did not say that it is meant for non-Ismailis. I said it is accessible to non-Ismailis as well.

1. Enlighten me and jamaits if there are any batini secrets involve in Preamble. Preamble mentions the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism. There is no hidden agaenda in it given by Imam.
2. Followers of Hazar Imam are first Mulims then they are Ismailis, so being a Mulim Shahadah is compulsory. In other words if no Shahdah means Ismailism is void, and being a Muslim there is no condition of reciting Aliyun Amirul Mu'mineen, because Shahadah mentioned in Preamble does not contain that phrase of Amirul Mu'mineen.
3. You wrote,"Shahadah binds all Muslims so we accept the Shahadah". Your statement shows we are compelled to accept it, or pretend to accept it, otherwise we should not have to.
4. The 3rd part of Kalima was added few centuries after Mowla Ali passed away by Shias. We do not have any proof it existed at time of Prophet or Mowla Ali or even at time of Imam Baqir.
5. Shias do believe in living Imam concept, though in occultation but still guiding through Ayatullahs, as Shias believe.
6. The current Ismaili document i.e Du'a shows Ali is first Imam, the wordings in Du'a are 'ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI AND SECOND AFTER ALI IS MOWLANA HUSSAIN.....'
7. The general consecuss among mostly Imailis is that Hazar Imams's guidance do not go beyond the teachings of Qurani Ta'limaat.
8. The meaning of Ginan part which you mentioned shows love between a sufi or a spiritual master and an adept. Sufi saying is "fana fil mMurshid is fana fi Rasul, and fana fi Rasul is fana fi Allah".
9. It is unfortunate you wrote, Ali is superior than Muhammad, though Ali had ba'yat on hands of Prophet. Prophet Muhammad is also bearer of same Noor and Essence as Mowla Ali is. When Ali is Mazhar e zaat e Illahi so Prophet Muhammad is also.

[Admin]

I think you are pretty much confused between Islam, Shia, Sunni, Ismaili and Kalima matters.

First we were Muslim. Than we evolved and became Ismaili. In light of this fundamental fact, the preamble is absolutely clear.

Beside Shias and Sufis, I have not found many Muslims/Sunnis believing in Noor e Muhammadi.

Prophet Muhammad never claimed to be the Bearer of the Noor. He only claimed to receive the revelation from Allah. On the other hand, even Mowlana Shah Karim has claimed to be the Bearer of the Noor.

This said, stick to the preamble.

[kmaherali]

1. Enlighten me and jamaits if there are any batini secrets involve in Preamble. Preamble mentions the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism. There is no hidden agaenda in it given by Imam.

I hope the Farman below helps to understand the meaning of an esoteric tradition.

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat."
(Bombay, Wednesday, November 22, 1967)

Hence what ever is written/published is meant for the public consumption. The meaning and wisdom is there for the Jamat only.

2. Followers of Hazar Imam are first Mulims then they are Ismailis, so being a Mulim Shahadah is compulsory. In other words if no Shahdah means Ismailism is void, and being a Muslim there is no condition of reciting Aliyun Amirul Mu'mineen, because Shahadah mentioned in Preamble does not contain that phrase of Amirul Mu'mineen.

Are you suggesting that we should stop the phrase about "Amirul Momineen" in our Kalima?

3. You wrote,"Shahadah binds all Muslims so we accept the Shahadah". Your statement shows we are compelled to accept it, or pretend to accept it, otherwise we should not have to.

Of course we should accept, however Ismailis progress beyond that.

4. The 3rd part of Kalima was added few centuries after Mowla Ali passed away by Shias. We do not have any proof it existed at time of Prophet or Mowla Ali or even at time of Imam Baqir.

So you are suggesting that we should only follow what was mentioned 14 centuries ago and ignore all the later developments?

5. Shias do believe in living Imam concept, though in occultation but still guiding through Ayatullahs, as Shias believe.

OK, I should have said present living Imam.

6. The current Ismaili document i.e Du'a shows Ali is first Imam, the wordings in Du'a are 'ALLAHUMA BIHAQQI MOWLANA ALI AND SECOND AFTER ALI IS MOWLANA HUSSAIN.....'

So are you saying that our faith started from Prophet Muhammad? Were was the Hujja before Muhammad?

7. The general consecuss among mostly Imailis is that Hazar Imams's guidance do not go beyond the teachings of Qurani Ta'limaat.

As I said, if you will study the Framans, you will seldom find any association with the Qur'an accept in the ethics. Guidance has to be ongoing, it cannot stop at one given time. Therefore Qur'an by itself is insufficient as guidance.

8. The meaning of Ginan part which you mentioned shows love between a sufi or a spiritual master and an adept. Sufi saying is "fana fil mMurshid is fana fi Rasul, and fana fi Rasul is fana fi Allah".

Yes but Fanna means total annihilation. The drop merging into the ocean.

9. It is unfortunate you wrote, Ali is superior than Muhammad, though Ali had ba'yat on hands of Prophet. Prophet Muhammad is also bearer of same Noor and Essence as Mowla Ali is. When Ali is Mazhar e zaat e Illahi so Prophet Muhammad is also.

According to our tradition the Prophet was the Pir and hence a murid of the Imam.
The Prophet did not appoint Hazarat but made Imamt manifest to the Umma.

[shivaathervedi]

Yes it is Imam's responsibilty to give directions on Tariqa matters.
But what about CHIRAG E ROSHAN? It is a traditional issue and not a doctrinal. It is not practiced by khojas of subcontinent origin.

Chirag e Roshan is a tradition that has evolved within the context of Nair Khusraw in the Central Asian jamats. A tradition involves doctrinal matters as well. In the Chirag e Roshan essential aspects of our doctrine are highlighted:

"It appears in the Northern Area of Pakistan that a white cloth is spread on the ground and a lamp (chiragh) is burned in the middle. No other light is allowed to be kept or used as long as this lamp remains burning. The Koranic verses and other religious formula are recited while preparing the wicks of the lamp and inserting the oil made of the fat of sacrificial animal. With loud chanting of salwat, the qadi stands in front of the khalifa (headman) and places the lamp down again three times. It exhorts the Oneness of Divine Light in the universe, but has three relations: the relation to God, the Prophet and the Imam of the age. When the lamp is kindled, the believers deduce that the Imam is the bearer of the living Light of God on earth."

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ght=chirag

It is not practiced by the Khojas because it did not evolve in their tradition. Hence there is diversity of tradition within the Jamat.

When doctrine is same it should be applicable to all Ismailis. You wrote;

"It exhorts the Oneness of Divine Light in the universe, but has three relations: the relation to God, the Prophet and the Imam of the age".

The three relations as you mentioned are with Allah, Prophet Muhammad, and Imam of the time. This is the main doctrine which I have been insisting is common in all Ismailis, which is mentioned in 2nd part of Du'a, and which has been faith of our forefathers.

[shivaathervedi]

But that sentence ALI SAHI ALLAH was replaced by MSMS as ALIYULLAH in revised Du'a in 1950 and the meaning in ITREB books is ' ALI IS FROM ALLAH', which is taught in RCs. WHAT YOUTH TO FOLLOW? Formula changed according to time, so the meaning.

Whether it was replaced or not, the fact is that our forefathers practiced it for centuries under the sanction of the Imams.

This is not the thread for discussion as to the reason for the replacement and the appropriateness of Aliyullah and it's correct meaning. It has been discussed elsewhere.

This thread is about the faith of our forefathers. It has been discussed at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=90

Page 4 onwards

This thread is about second article of Preamble and not about the faith of forefathers as you mentioned. You drifted from the thread and induced faith of forefathers.
For centuries back Hindu converts were taking name of Hari. Is original Du'a prescribed by Pir Sadardin available today any where? As it is said; Dhude ka dhude pani ka pani ho jai.

[shivaathervedi]

I think you are pretty much confused between Islam, Shia, Sunni, Ismaili and Kalima matters.

First we were Muslim. Than we evolved and became Ismaili. In light of this fundamental fact, the preamble is absolutely clear.

Beside Shias and Sufis, I have not found many Muslims/Sunnis believing in Noor e Muhammadi.

Prophet Muhammad never claimed to be the Bearer of the Noor. He only claimed to receive the revelation from Allah. On the other hand, even Mowlana Shah Karim has claimed to be the Bearer of the Noor.

This said, stick to the preamble.

I am not confused but you people are confused.
You are right we are first Muslims and then Ismailis, and according to you on this regard 'Preamble is Clear', " tou phir shorr kahey ka hai". This what I am insisting, Preamble is basic for Ismailis.
You wrote," Prophet Muhammad never claimed to be bearer of Noor", this shows how knowledgeable you are. In Ismaili books it is mentioned this Hadith of Prophet: ANA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID, trans: I and Ali are from one (wahid, same) Noor.
In sufi sayings, it is clearly mentioned for Prophet Muhammad;
TERI ZAAT HAI MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA....

[Admin]

I just wish you would learn to read what people write and not imagine things. You have not shown where the Prophet said he is the Bearer of the Noor. And do you intend to come back to the thread or do you want to continue discussing here subjects that are already having their own thread.