Second Article of Preamble of Ismaili Constitution.

[shivaathervedi]

SECOND ARTICLE (B) OF PREAMBLE OF ISMAILI CONSTITUTION:

IN ACCORDANCE WITH SHIA DOCTRINE, TRADITION, AND INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY, THE HOLY PROPHET (S.A.S) DESIGNATED AND APPOINTED HIS COUSIN AND SON-IN-LAW HAZRAT MAWLANA ALI AMIRUL MU'MININ('ALAYHIS SALAAM), TO BE THE FIRST IMAM TO CONTONUE THE TA'WIL AND TA'LIM OF ALLAH'S FINAL MESSAGE AND TO GUIDE THE MURIDS, AND PROCLAIMED THAT THE IMAMAT SHOULD CONTINUE BY HEREDITY THROUGH HAZRAT MAWLANA ALI (A.S), AND HIS DAUGHTER HAZRAT BIBI FATIMAT-AZ-ZAHRA, KHATUN-I- JANNAT ('ALAYHAS SALAAM).

In the fourth paragraph of the booklet 'The Ismaili Constitution' is mentioned:

THE CONSTITUTION IS COMPOSED OF THE PREAMBLE FOLLOWED BY 20 ARTICLES AND 11 SHEDULES. IT ENDS WITH A GLOSSARY OF ARABIC WORDS USED IN THE CONSTITUTION. THE GLOSSARY IS NOT PART OF THE CONSTITUTION. IT IS OF SINGULAR IMPORTANCE THAT WE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THE FULL IMPORTANCE, SIGNIFICANCE AND IMPLICATION OF THIS MOMENTOUS DOCUMENT. IT IS ENVISIONED THAT THE YOUNGESTERS OF OUR JAMAITS WOULD BE FAMILIAR WITH THE ISMAILI CONSTITUTION, ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

Like the First Article of Preamble this Second Article is of utmost importance. In the above paragraph the stress is given on PREAMBLE with suggestion and advice that each Ismaili particularlly YOUTH should clearly understand the full importance, significance and implication of this document.

Following are the points which need discussion:

1. Mowla Ali was designated and appointed as First Imam By Prophet Muhammad. Means Brahma appointed Vishnu and not vice versa. It shows Mowla Ali was authorized by Prophet Muhammad.
2. Mowla Ali is Amirul Mu'minin and not Amirul Muslimin.
3. After the name of Mowla Ali is added 'Alayhis Salaam'. For God Alayhis Salaam is not used.
4. Mowla Ali and following Imams are present to explain THE FINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH, and that is Quran.
5. The Imamat should continue by HEREDITY through Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah, Khatun e Jannat. Allah has no sons or daughters (Surah Ikhlas), and for heredity process a child is needed.
6. In the second article of Preamble there is no mention of word Noor related to heredity.
7. Every Ismailiy should understand the meaning of Du'a particularly 6th part of Du'a. Which starts with Surah Ikhlas followed by the words ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI (USED 3 TIMES IN PART 6 OF DU'A), means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF AHL E BAIT,( BI HAQQI MEANS WASTEY, TUFAIL, SADQEY MEI(N), ZARIYA SE), then ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI MOWLA ALI, MOWLANAL HUSSAIN...., means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF MOWLA ALI FOLLOWED BY ALL NAMES OF IMAMS, and in the last paragraph is recited WA BI HAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINIL HAADHRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI...., means YA ALLAH AND ON BEHALF OF OUR HAZAR WA MOUJUD IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI FORGINE US AND HAVE MERCY ON US.

[kmaherali]

Following are the points which need discussion:

1. Mowla Ali was designated and appointed as First Imam By Prophet Muhammad. Means Brahma appointed Vishnu and not vice versa. It shows Mowla Ali was authorized by Prophet Muhammad.
2. Mowla Ali is Amirul Mu'minin and not Amirul Muslimin.
3. After the name of Mowla Ali is added 'Alayhis Salaam'. For God Alayhis Salaam is not used.
4. Mowla Ali and following Imams are present to explain THE FINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH, and that is Quran.
5. The Imamat should continue by HEREDITY through Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah, Khatun e Jannat. Allah has no sons or daughters (Surah Ikhlas), and for heredity process a child is needed.
6. In the second article of Preamble there is no mention of word Noor related to heredity.
7. Every Ismailiy should understand the meaning of Du'a particularly 6th part of Du'a. Which starts with Surah Ikhlas followed by the words ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI (USED 3 TIMES IN PART 6 OF DU'A), means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF AHL E BAIT,( BI HAQQI MEANS WASTEY, TUFAIL, SADQEY MEI(N), ZARIYA SE), then ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI MOWLA ALI, MOWLANAL HUSSAIN...., means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF MOWLA ALI FOLLOWED BY ALL NAMES OF IMAMS, and in the last paragraph is recited WA BI HAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINIL HAADHRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI...., means YA ALLAH AND ON BEHALF OF OUR HAZAR WA MOUJUD IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI FORGINE US AND HAVE MERCY ON US.

As has been discussed on many occasions, the Constitution and its preamble represents the Zahir of our faith. It is an expression of the articulation of our faith to others. It is read by non-Ismailis as well.

However you are forgetting a very important aspect of our faith. There is the Zahir and the Batin. The Zatir is for public consumption and the Batin is for the Jamat.

From the Batin, Imamat has always existed! The Prophet could not have appointed Hazarat Ali. He became the Imam after the death of his father.

Think about the following Farman:

MHI Farman:: Zahir is Zahir, Batin is Batin
Leaders of Syrian Jamat
Sheraton Hotel
Damascus Syria
May 8, 1980

""When you return to your homes, I would like you to take back with you My Farman concerning unity, friendship and brotherhood. Keep in mind the Farman that I have sent you, either in writing or this afternoon. Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion.""

[Admin]

Writing in ALL CAPS is against the Netiquette and is considered arrogant and insulting. ALL of the post abusing on CAPS LOCK will be deleted, whatever importance of the posting.

[Admin]

From the Batin, Imamat has always existed! The Prophet could not have appointed Hazarat Ali. He became the Imam after the death of his father.

As far as Doctrines, we do not say Prophet "appointed" Hazrat Ali, he ony "pointed out" Hazrat Ali as being the Imam nor do we believe he became Imam after the death of Prophet.

[kmaherali]

As far as Doctrines, we do not say Prophet "appointed" Hazrat Ali, he ony "pointed out" Hazrat Ali as being the Imam not do we believe he became Imam after the death of Prophet.

That is said in the preamble of the Constitution.

IN ACCORDANCE WITH SHIA DOCTRINE, TRADITION, AND INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY, THE HOLY PROPHET (S.A.S) DESIGNATED AND APPOINTED HIS COUSIN AND SON-IN-LAW HAZRAT MAWLANA ALI AMIRUL MU'MININ('ALAYHIS SALAAM),

[Admin]

I was talking of doctrinal point of view. Not from the historical point of view to which the Constitution refers to. If one refers only to history, even God's historical existence can be questioned. The historical has to be seen in light of the spiritual particularly because Farmans can supersede the Constitution and there are BK Farmans made after the Constitution which refers to what I have said.

[shivaathervedi]

Following are the points which need discussion:

1. Mowla Ali was designated and appointed as First Imam By Prophet Muhammad. Means Brahma appointed Vishnu and not vice versa. It shows Mowla Ali was authorized by Prophet Muhammad.
2. Mowla Ali is Amirul Mu'minin and not Amirul Muslimin.
3. After the name of Mowla Ali is added 'Alayhis Salaam'. For God Alayhis Salaam is not used.
4. Mowla Ali and following Imams are present to explain THE FINAL MESSAGE OF ALLAH, and that is Quran.
5. The Imamat should continue by HEREDITY through Mowla Ali and Bibi Fatimah, Khatun e Jannat. Allah has no sons or daughters (Surah Ikhlas), and for heredity process a child is needed.
6. In the second article of Preamble there is no mention of word Noor related to heredity.
7. Every Ismailiy should understand the meaning of Du'a particularly 6th part of Du'a. Which starts with Surah Ikhlas followed by the words ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI (USED 3 TIMES IN PART 6 OF DU'A), means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF AHL E BAIT,( BI HAQQI MEANS WASTEY, TUFAIL, SADQEY MEI(N), ZARIYA SE), then ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI MOWLA ALI, MOWLANAL HUSSAIN...., means YA ALLAH ON BEHALF OF MOWLA ALI FOLLOWED BY ALL NAMES OF IMAMS, and in the last paragraph is recited WA BI HAQQI MOWLANA WA IMAMINIL HAADHRIL MOUJUD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI...., means YA ALLAH AND ON BEHALF OF OUR HAZAR WA MOUJUD IMAM SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI FORGINE US AND HAVE MERCY ON US.

As has been discussed on many occasions, the Constitution and its preamble represents the Zahir of our faith. It is an expression of the articulation of our faith to others. It is read by non-Ismailis as well.

However you are forgetting a very important aspect of our faith. There is the Zahir and the Batin. The Zatir is for public consumption and the Batin is for the Jamat.

From the Batin, Imamat has always existed! The Prophet could not have appointed Hazarat Ali. He became the Imam after the death of his father.

Think about the following Farman:

MHI Farman:: Zahir is Zahir, Batin is Batin
Leaders of Syrian Jamat
Sheraton Hotel
Damascus Syria
May 8, 1980

""When you return to your homes, I would like you to take back with you My Farman concerning unity, friendship and brotherhood. Keep in mind the Farman that I have sent you, either in writing or this afternoon. Remember also that with regard to the interpretation of our faith, that which is Batin is Batin, that which is Zahir is Zahir. Remember that this is fundamental. And this is the Farman which I have given you today. And I wish that there should be no confusion.""

These are your golden words," Doctrines change according to changing times".
Initially PREAMBLE is for Ismailis though it is open to non Ismailis also.
Do you or any Ismaili know the alphabets or language of BATIN. If yes please quote the alphabets, sure these are not in khojki.
Teachings in Preamble are going to stay but the constitution it self can be changed, added or subtracted as Imam wishes.
Please read the fourth paragraph which I mentioned of booklet it states," It is envisioned that the youngsters of our Jamaits would be familiar with Ismaili constitution ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.
It is true zahir is zahir and batin is batin. In Preamble Imam has given zahir and has not explained the batin. When Imam explains the batin of Preamble we shall accept it.

[shivaathervedi]

As far as Doctrines, we do not say Prophet "appointed" Hazrat Ali, he ony "pointed out" Hazrat Ali as being the Imam not do we believe he became Imam after the death of Prophet.

That is said in the preamble of the Constitution.

IN ACCORDANCE WITH SHIA DOCTRINE, TRADITION, AND INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY, THE HOLY PROPHET (S.A.S) DESIGNATED AND APPOINTED HIS COUSIN AND SON-IN-LAW HAZRAT MAWLANA ALI AMIRUL MU'MININ('ALAYHIS SALAAM),

Are Ismailis Shia or not? The words used are designated and appointed, as Imam appoints leadership and Pirs.
Shia and Ismaailis know the episode of Ghadir e Khum where The Prophet nominated Mowla Ali as his successor and first Imam.

[kmaherali]

I was talking of doctrinal point of view. Not from the historical point of view to which the Constitution refers to..

According to the preamble it is doctrinal..

IN ACCORDANCE WITH SHIA DOCTRINE, TRADITION, AND INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY,

[kmaherali]

These are your golden words," Doctrines change according to changing times".
Initially PREAMBLE is for Ismailis though it is open to non Ismailis also.
Do you or any Ismaili know the alphabets or language of BATIN. If yes please quote the alphabets, sure these are not in khojki.
Teachings in Preamble are going to stay but the constitution it self can be changed, added or subtracted as Imam wishes.
Please read the fourth paragraph which I mentioned of booklet it states," It is envisioned that the youngsters of our Jamaits would be familiar with Ismaili constitution ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.
It is true zahir is zahir and batin is batin. In Preamble Imam has given zahir and has not explained the batin. When Imam explains the batin of Preamble we shall accept it.

I am not questioning the doctrine as stated in the Constitution. It is the 'garb' of our faith by which we represent our faith to others. There has to be a difference between what we express to others and what we understand ourselves. MHI reads speeches in public but makes extempore Farmans to his murids. You must understand this difference.

But to the Jamat the Imam emphasized that we should stick to the faith of our forefathers. Ask yourself: what was the faith of your forefathers. What did they say in their Dua? ALI SAHI ALLAH.

The Batin of the Constitution has not changed and will never change and it is: Ali has always been and will always be. There cannot be any question of him being appointed by anyone else accept Himself.

[shivaathervedi]

I was talking of doctrinal point of view. Not from the historical point of view to which the Constitution refers to..

According to the preamble it is doctrinal..

IN ACCORDANCE WITH SHIA DOCTRINE, TRADITION, AND INTERPRETATION OF HISTORY,

In Shia doctrines Imam is not considered as God. In Shia Ja'firi Tariqa which Ismailis follow there is no mention of Imam as God.

[shivaathervedi]

These are your golden words," Doctrines change according to changing times".
Initially PREAMBLE is for Ismailis though it is open to non Ismailis also.
Do you or any Ismaili know the alphabets or language of BATIN. If yes please quote the alphabets, sure these are not in khojki.
Teachings in Preamble are going to stay but the constitution it self can be changed, added or subtracted as Imam wishes.
Please read the fourth paragraph which I mentioned of booklet it states," It is envisioned that the youngsters of our Jamaits would be familiar with Ismaili constitution ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.
It is true zahir is zahir and batin is batin. In Preamble Imam has given zahir and has not explained the batin. When Imam explains the batin of Preamble we shall accept it.

I am not questioning the doctrine as stated in the Constitution. It is the 'garb' of our faith by which we represent our faith to others. There has to be a difference between what we express to others and what we understand ourselves. MHI reads speeches in public but makes extempore Farmans to his murids. You must understand this difference.

But to the Jamat the Imam emphasized that we should stick to the faith of our forefathers. Ask yourself: what was the faith of your forefathers. What did they say in their Dua? ALI SAHI ALLAH.

The Batin of the Constitution has not changed and will never change and it is: Ali has always been and will always be. There cannot be any question of him being appointed by anyone else accept Himself.

You wrote," I am not questioning the doctrine as stated in in the constitution". First, we are discussing the Preamble and not the constitution. You keep writing the word constitution and ignoring the word Preamble.
Second, when you accept the doctrines in Preamble then there is no need of discussion. Accept the doctrines as they are mentioned by Imam. Regarding batin of Preamble, when Imam will explain the batin Ismailis will accept that explanation.

Regarding the phrase ' to stick to faith of fore fathers', Central Asian, Afghanis, Chinese Ismailis believe in Allah, Rasul,and Imam of the time as Satpunthis of subcontinents do according to second part of Du'a. It is the basic doctrine of Ismailis. Therefore all Ismailis are on the same page according to Du'a, Farman and Preamble, same doctrine.

It doesn't matter or is a valid argument that Imam makes an extempore speech or read from the typed papers.

[Admin]

when Imam will explain the batin Ismailis will accept that explanation.

Imam has already explained the Batin, all of the Imams, be it Imam Ali, Jafar Sadiq, Hakim, Alazikrihisalam, Aga Ali Shah and so on. Shariati, as per Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, will never understand the Farmans of the Imam. Ali Allah is discussed in another thread.

If there are other things that you want to discuss in the context of the 2nd article of the Preamble of the Ismaili Constitution, please discuss it here.

[kmaherali]

These are your golden words," Doctrines change according to changing times".
Initially PREAMBLE is for Ismailis though it is open to non Ismailis also.

Any item that is open to non-Ismailis assumes a different meaning to avoid misunderstanding. If the murids and non-murids are equal in the understanding of faith, then the Tariqah does not serve any purpose to elevate the understanding of the murids.

That is the reason that during the Fatimid times we had the Majalis for the murids in addition to the attendance in masjids.

The Imam as a perfect teacher always speaks and expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience. There is a difference between a Zaheri audience and a Batini audience.

Do you or any Ismaili know the alphabets or language of BATIN. If yes please quote the alphabets, sure these are not in khojki.

Batin ideas can be expressed in any language. What is the problem with that. How else do you explain Batini matters to the murids?

Teachings in Preamble are going to stay but the constitution it self can be changed, added or subtracted as Imam wishes.
Please read the fourth paragraph which I mentioned of booklet it states," It is envisioned that the youngsters of our Jamaits would be familiar with Ismaili constitution ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

It is true zahir is zahir and batin is batin. In Preamble Imam has given zahir and has not explained the batin. When Imam explains the batin of Preamble we shall accept it.[/quote]
Preamble can change just like the constitution to reflect the changing circumstances. Yes we as Ismailis need to be aware of what we articulate to others. But that does not mean that we need to confine our understanding to that of the preamble. We of course have to go into the Batin.

All Ismailis will tell you that Imamat has always existed right from the beginning. So the preamble does not reflect our understanding. It is meant for non-Ismaili audience to avoid confusion.

[kmaherali]

Regarding the phrase ' to stick to faith of fore fathers', Central Asian, Afghanis, Chinese Ismailis believe in Allah, Rasul,and Imam of the time as Satpunthis of subcontinents do according to second part of Du'a. It is the basic doctrine of Ismailis. Therefore all Ismailis are on the same page according to Du'a, Farman and Preamble, same doctrine.

It doesn't matter or is a valid argument that Imam makes an extempore speech or read from the typed papers.

The Satpanthis have recited ALI SAHI ALLAH in their Dua for centuries. Think about what that means and then compare it with the preamble.

There is a vast difference between somebody reading from a prepared speech and someone making extempore remarks.

[shivaathervedi]

Regarding the phrase ' to stick to faith of fore fathers', Central Asian, Afghanis, Chinese Ismailis believe in Allah, Rasul,and Imam of the time as Satpunthis of subcontinents do according to second part of Du'a. It is the basic doctrine of Ismailis. Therefore all Ismailis are on the same page according to Du'a, Farman and Preamble, same doctrine.

It doesn't matter or is a valid argument that Imam makes an extempore speech or read from the typed papers.

The Satpanthis have recited ALI SAHI ALLAH in their Dua for centuries. Think about what that means and then compare it with the preamble.

There is a vast difference between somebody reading from a prepared speech and someone making extempore remarks.

It depends upon the high profile speaker how will he address the audience.

In the Dini and Dunyawi Success thread started by you, Admin quoted, The Imam once said," It is only Kara Ruda in India who knows me in reality".
Just imagine, if at time of MSMS there were say half a million khojas in subcontinent there was only one person who knew Imam in reality, though rest used to recite the phrase Ali Sahi Allah and did not recognized Imam. What a standard of faith!! Now a days hardly one % believe in this phrase in subcontinent.

[shivaathervedi]

when Imam will explain the batin Ismailis will accept that explanation.

Imam has already explained the Batin, all of the Imams, be it Imam Ali, Jafar Sadiq, Hakim, Alazikrihisalam, Aga Ali Shah and so on. Shariati, as per Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, will never understand the Farmans of the Imam. Ali Allah is discussed in another thread.

If there are other things that you want to discuss in the context of the 2nd article of the Preamble of the Ismaili Constitution, please discuss it here.

The discussion on batin in Preamble is not started by me. I just replied.
Is there any BATINI VERSION of Preamble available? Words speak for them selves. Can the Canadian $100 bill be called $1000 in BATIN!!

[kmaherali]

In the Dini and Dunyawi Success thread started by you, Admin quoted, The Imam once said," It is only Kara Ruda in India who knows me in reality".
Just imagine, if at time of MSMS there were say half a million khojas in subcontinent there was only one person who knew Imam in reality, though rest used to recite the phrase Ali Sahi Allah and did not recognized Imam. What a standard of faith!! Now a days hardly one % believe in this phrase in subcontinent.

Ismailism is a faith of quality, not quantity. I think that is what the Imam meant when he said that only Kara Ruda in India knows him in reality.

MSMS once remarked to late Dr. Nathoo that Ismailism will survive if there is only one Ismaili.

[kmaherali]

Is there any BATINI VERSION of Preamble available? Words speak for them selves. Can the Canadian $100 bill be called $1000 in BATIN!!

Batini version has always existed. I bit of common sense is required.

Any Ismaili today will tell you that Imamat has existed since creation because His presence is absolutely required. Even a small child. It is not too difficult to understand that!

[shivaathervedi]

These are your golden words," Doctrines change according to changing times".
Initially PREAMBLE is for Ismailis though it is open to non Ismailis also.

Any item that is open to non-Ismailis assumes a different meaning to avoid misunderstanding. If the murids and non-murids are equal in the understanding of faith, then the Tariqah does not serve any purpose to elevate the understanding of the murids.

That is the reason that during the Fatimid times we had the Majalis for the murids in addition to the attendance in masjids.

The Imam as a perfect teacher always speaks and expresses himself according to the capacity of the audience. There is a difference between a Zaheri audience and a Batini audience.

Do you or any Ismaili know the alphabets or language of BATIN. If yes please quote the alphabets, sure these are not in khojki.

Batin ideas can be expressed in any language. What is the problem with that. How else do you explain Batini matters to the murids?

Teachings in Preamble are going to stay but the constitution it self can be changed, added or subtracted as Imam wishes.
Please read the fourth paragraph which I mentioned of booklet it states," It is envisioned that the youngsters of our Jamaits would be familiar with Ismaili constitution ESPECIALLY WITH THE PREAMBLE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

It is true zahir is zahir and batin is batin. In Preamble Imam has given zahir and has not explained the batin. When Imam explains the batin of Preamble we shall accept it.

Preamble can change just like the constitution to reflect the changing circumstances. Yes we as Ismailis need to be aware of what we articulate to others. But that does not mean that we need to confine our understanding to that of the preamble. We of course have to go into the Batin.

All Ismailis will tell you that Imamat has always existed right from the beginning. So the preamble does not reflect our understanding. It is meant for non-Ismaili audience to avoid confusion.[/quote]


Reply to Kmaharali:

Is Preamble written for Ismailis or not? If your answer is YES, then being a true Ismaili you have to follow the doctrine mentioned in Preamble.

Preamble is not creating any misunderstanding in non Ismailis. I my self have provided copies of Preamble to non Ismailis and they have appreciated the document.

Why during the Fatimid era DARUL HIKMAH WAS CLOSED in presence of great Ismaili Dais like Al Kirmani, and Almued Shirazi? Though the participants were supposed to be high class ma'rfatis!!

You wrote," Imam expresses himself according to capacity of audiences". It means according to your opinion The Preamble is written for only zahiri murids.

I asked a general question about language of batin. Like computer programming language starts with 0's and 1's. Is any way I or any one can understand the batin language of Preamble. Now who will explain the batin of Preamble? And that is only right of Imam and not Tom, Dick, and Harry,
(nuseri's version). 30+ years did Imam provided any batni explanation of Preamble? If YES, where is that?

You wrote," Preamble can change to reflect the changing circumstances".
Let's take your notion correct. So Imam changed the Satpunthi doctrine of HINDU MYTHOLOGY to changing circumstances and gave new set of doctrines and that is in par with your golden statement," Doctrines change according to changing times".

Further you wrote," The Preamble does not reflect our understanding". It means you are negating, not only negating but rejecting the doctrines mentioned in Preamble. Isn't it?

[kmaherali]

Is Preamble written for Ismailis or not? If your answer is YES, then being a true Ismaili you have to follow the doctrine mentioned in Preamble. ?

Unlike a Farman the Preamble is meant for the articulation of our doctrine to the world - Ismailis and non-Ismailis. As I said that it is the Zahir of our faith. The Batin of course takes a different meaning.

The Preamble starts with the final message of Allah. What about the previous messages? What about Imams before Hazarat Ali? That is where the Batin comes into play. The Noor of Imamat or the Hujjat (Proof) has to be present at all times. The Preamble does not deal with that.

Preamble is not creating any misunderstanding in non Ismailis. I my self have provided copies of Preamble to non Ismailis and they have appreciated the document. ?

That is exactly the point. The Preamble is written so that it does not create misunderstanding in non-Ismailis. The majority of Shias do not accept Imamat before Hazarat Ali. Hence the Preamble begins with the Imamat of Hazart Ali.

Why during the Fatimid era DARUL HIKMAH WAS CLOSED in presence of great Ismaili Dais like Al Kirmani, and Almued Shirazi? Though the participants were supposed to be high class ma'rfatis!! ?

Because the circumstances were not conducive for the institutions

You wrote," Imam expresses himself according to capacity of audiences". It means according to your opinion The Preamble is written for only zahiri murids.

Our tariqah is Batini (esoteric) by definition and hence to say that there are Zaheri murids is meaningless. It is written for the world. However the Ismailis have a Batini understanding as well.

I asked a general question about language of batin. Like computer programming language starts with 0's and 1's. Is any way I or any one can understand the batin language of Preamble. Now who will explain the batin of Preamble? And that is only right of Imam and not Tom, Dick, and Harry,
(nuseri's version). 30+ years did Imam provided any batni explanation of Preamble? If YES, where is that? ?

Of course only the Imam can explain the Batin which he has. Hasn't the Imam made numerous Farmans on the Ever-Presence of the Noor of Imamat since creation?

You wrote," Preamble can change to reflect the changing circumstances".
Let's take your notion correct. So Imam changed the Satpunthi doctrine of HINDU MYTHOLOGY to changing circumstances and gave new set of doctrines and that is in par with your golden statement," Doctrines change according to changing times". ?

The Doctrine is the form which can change. The essence of Everpresent Imam does not change. Hazar Imam means that he is Ever Present.

Hindu mythology had nothing to do with doctrine. They have a great deal od allegorical value according to MSMS.

Further you wrote," The Preamble does not reflect our understanding". It means you are negating, not only negating but rejecting the doctrines mentioned in Preamble. Isn't it?

accept them as the Zaheri articulation of our faith. If I were to discuss our faith with a non-Ismaili, then that is the approach I would use.

However for my on understanding I would follow the Farmans which state that we have to follow the faith of our forefathers.

[shivaathervedi]

In the Dini and Dunyawi Success thread started by you, Admin quoted, The Imam once said," It is only Kara Ruda in India who knows me in reality".
Just imagine, if at time of MSMS there were say half a million khojas in subcontinent there was only one person who knew Imam in reality, though rest used to recite the phrase Ali Sahi Allah and did not recognized Imam. What a standard of faith!! Now a days hardly one % believe in this phrase in subcontinent.

Ismailism is a faith of quality, not quantity. I think that is what the Imam meant when he said that only Kara Ruda in India knows him in reality.

MSMS once remarked to late Dr. Nathoo that Ismailism will survive if there is only one Ismaili.

Your this assertion is not correct that Ismailism is faith of quality and not quantity. Did Pir Sadardin not considered this and converted bulk without looking into quality formula. All Imam's followers who have ba'yat and consider him as Imam are equal.

If quality wise standard of murids is not high, why still Imam is holding the herds of sheep, should slaughter them.

What about of those Ismaili fidayans who sacrificed their lives and wealth for sake of propagating Ismaili faith and fought for Imam, were they degraded, non qualitative persons. What is important, only bandagi in A/c and heating system in JK or to sacrifice life for Imam?

[Admin]

To Shivaatharvedi

In case you wonder why your posts gets deleted frequently even when they do not content insults:

Faith of your forefathers is an expression used by the Imam from 1957 to even very recently this year. And to think that all Ismailis are on your page is at the least arrogance if not more.

What you describe as your understanding of the faith of your forefather may not really be the summary of what your forefathers were considering as their faith. You have a habit of putting into people's mouth what you think they say and what you think they think.

Most of your posts would become unnecessary if you try to read properly what people write. Thanks for trying in the future. We do delete posts which misquote other people's post. bear that in mind.

[Admin]

Shia and Ismaailis know the episode of Ghadir e Khum where The Prophet nominated Mowla Ali as his successor and first Imam.

You are mistaken. Prophet pointed out Imam Ali as the Imam because he was ordered to do so by Allah. Not by his own power. Ali was Imam already since the previous Imam passed away. That may not be taught in lower levels of initiation so it would be a useless discussion however there is a Ghadir e Khum thread where the discussion can continue. While historically we say Imam Ali was first Imam, we understand that he was the first Imam of the cycle of Prophet Muhammad, in the same way Ismaili was first Imam in the cycle of Prophet Ibrahim and Aaron was first Imam in the cycle of prophet Mussa (Moise). We know there will be Imams of the Space Age and beyond. We know the world can not sustain itself without the Imam's power. All this is basics...

[kmaherali]

Your this assertion is not correct that Ismailism is faith of quality and not quantity. Did Pir Sadardin not considered this and converted bulk without looking into quality formula. All Imam's followers who have ba'yat and consider him as Imam are equal.

Our tradition is an esoteric and a personal tradition predicated upon the relationship between an individual murid and the Imam.

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions." (Dar es Salaam, Oct 6, 1988)

We are a community of murids who recognize the Imam of the time as their spiritual guide and who have done Bayat. However each murid has his/her own connection to the Imam. Hence we have the concept of majalis where murids can choose to dedicate more time.

[shivaathervedi]

Shia and Ismaailis know the episode of Ghadir e Khum where The Prophet nominated Mowla Ali as his successor and first Imam.

You are mistaken. Prophet pointed out Imam Ali as the Imam because he was ordered to do so by Allah. Not by his own power. Ali was Imam already since the previous Imam passed away. That may not be taught in lower levels of initiation so it would be a useless discussion however there is a Ghadir e Khum thread where the discussion can continue. While historically we say Imam Ali was first Imam, we understand that he was the first Imam of the cycle of Prophet Muhammad, in the same way Ismaili was first Imam in the cycle of Prophet Ibrahim and Aaron was first Imam in the cycle of prophet Mussa (Moise). We know there will be Imams of the Space Age and beyond. We know the world can not sustain itself without the Imam's power. All this is basics...

I wished you, your heritage cousins, and my self should have been on an open Forum where deleting is not allowed or not possible. You are taking advantage of format you set and keep deleting my valuable posts. You deleted my 35%+ posts. I do not think in past 20 years you should have deleted so many posts of a single member. But I shall keep hitting you and your friends. COMPETE AND DON'T DELETE.
I wander you delete my post but at same time selecting one line of your choice and showing your scholarship. What a shame.
Do you recite Du'a or not? Do you know the meaning of Du'a? What you recite in second part of Du'a. Do you believe in Ayat OBEY ALLAH, OBEY RASUL, OBEY ULIL AMR IMAM OF TIME. THIS IS WHAT OUR FOREFATHERS AND WE ISMAILIS IN PRESENT TIME BELIEVE. I don't know what keep pinching you on my quoting of this Ayat.

[shivaathervedi]

Shia and Ismaailis know the episode of Ghadir e Khum where The Prophet nominated Mowla Ali as his successor and first Imam.

You are mistaken. Prophet pointed out Imam Ali as the Imam because he was ordered to do so by Allah. Not by his own power. Ali was Imam already since the previous Imam passed away. That may not be taught in lower levels of initiation so it would be a useless discussion however there is a Ghadir e Khum thread where the discussion can continue. While historically we say Imam Ali was first Imam, we understand that he was the first Imam of the cycle of Prophet Muhammad, in the same way Ismaili was first Imam in the cycle of Prophet Ibrahim and Aaron was first Imam in the cycle of prophet Mussa (Moise). We know there will be Imams of the Space Age and beyond. We know the world can not sustain itself without the Imam's power. All this is basics...

In second article of Preamble, it is written," Prophet Muhammad designated and appointed Mowla Ali as first Imam. These are NOT MY WORDS BUT WORDS OF IMAM. I believe what Imam says. I damn care you or some other person comes out of his own interpretation. If you do not believe in Preamble, be brave and admit it.
Let us take, what you wrote," Prophet pointed out Imam Ali as the Imam because he was ordered to do so by Allah". Truth is out by your this sentence. This is what I have been discussing and believe. So according to you ALLAH ORDERED PROPHET MUHAMMAD TO DECLARE MOWLA ALI AS IMAM and this is what mentioned in the beginning of second part of Du'a.

[shivaathervedi]

Your this assertion is not correct that Ismailism is faith of quality and not quantity. Did Pir Sadardin not considered this and converted bulk without looking into quality formula. All Imam's followers who have ba'yat and consider him as Imam are equal.

Our tradition is an esoteric and a personal tradition predicated upon the relationship between an individual murid and the Imam.

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions." (Dar es Salaam, Oct 6, 1988)

We are a community of murids who recognize the Imam of the time as their spiritual guide and who have done Bayat. However each murid has his/her own connection to the Imam. Hence we have the concept of majalis where murids can choose to dedicate more time.

Tradition is that we believe in concept of Imamat past many centuries, unbroken chain of Imamat. Tradition is we believe in Farmans and obey. Tadition is majalis as you wrote, but majalis tradition is particularly for subcontinent murids and not for Chinese or Central Asian Ismailis. So tradition of majalis is one sided. Personal search or to acquire wisdom is an individual endeavour is appreciated, but all fingers are not alike.
I believe what is mentioned in our Du'a and the Preamble given by Imam. and shall accept and obey any batini meaning given by Imam and not by so called intellectuals.

[kmaherali]

In second article of Preamble, it is written," Prophet Muhammad designated and appointed Mowla Ali as first Imam. These are NOT MY WORDS BUT WORDS OF IMAM. I believe what Imam says. I damn care you or some other person comes out of his own interpretation. If you do not believe in Preamble, be brave and admit it.

Imam speaks different things to different audiences. To his murids he has told in many many ways that the Noor of Imamat has been since the beginning and itmust be ever present. Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam but the first Imam in this cycle.

MSMS has told us that Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir of this cycle. How can a Peer appoint the Imam? In reality it is the opposite.

[shivaathervedi]

In second article of Preamble, it is written," Prophet Muhammad designated and appointed Mowla Ali as first Imam. These are NOT MY WORDS BUT WORDS OF IMAM. I believe what Imam says. I damn care you or some other person comes out of his own interpretation. If you do not believe in Preamble, be brave and admit it.

Imam speaks different things to different audiences. To his murids he has told in many many ways that the Noor of Imamat has been since the beginning and itmust be ever present. Hazarat Ali was not the first Imam but the first Imam in this cycle.

MSMS has told us that Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir of this cycle. How can a Peer appoint the Imam? In reality it is the opposite.

Please note there is no mention of cycles in Preamble. Cycle philosophy was developed in Fatimid era, and in couple of your posts you mentioned that Fatmid era philosophy is not applicable now a days.
We are living in Present Imam's time and follow what he guides. There is no mention of 50 Pirs in Preamble or in our Du'a which we recite 3 times a day.