Satpanth Sirat al Mustakim

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
MHI has said Islam is a faith.We are generally and even by scholars observed and called as an Ismailis a religious sect derived from name of Imam Ismail and followers of his descent the present Nizari branch Imam.
But studying closely the truth/haqiqati we are a faith( not exactly religion) of Sathpanthis or those on truest path/part of faith/Sirat almustakeem ( a sure shot destination to Tawhid)
Nevertheless the expressions,act,posturing,traditions coming out of professing that faith can be observed as a religion.
I wish to expand on this topic unless same topic at the level ALI desires exist already.

[Admin]

If this is an attempt to open another thread on Ali Allah or any existing thread, it will be closed. Please stick to the thread of Sirat al Mustaqueem here.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
MHI has said Islam is a faith.We are generally and even by scholars observed and called as an Ismailis a religious sect derived from name of Imam Ismail and followers of his descent the present Nizari branch Imam.
But studying closely the truth/haqiqati we are a faith( not exactly religion) of Sathpanthis or those on truest path/part of faith/Sirat almustakeem ( a sure shot destination to Tawhid)
Nevertheless the expressions,act,posturing,traditions coming out of professing that faith can be observed as a religion.
I wish to expand on this topic unless same topic at the level ALI desires exist already.

Hazar Imam has described Sirat ul Mustaqeem in first article of Preamble.
The first step to acquire Tawhid is to believe in Kalima e Shadah, ie;

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah,' La ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah,' the Tawheed there in and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad PBUH is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet PBUH through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters."

Kalima e Shahadah mentioned is LA ILAHA ILLALLAH MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH MEANS THERE IS NO DEITY BUT ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD IS RASUL OF ALLAH. THERE IS NO MENTION OF ALI IN ABOVE KALIMA.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad

We only ACCEPT the shahada the TAWHID THERIN.
which tawhid expresses our tariqat ,haqiqati and marfat ,which is our chain of faith.

For A Satpanthi the word Allah by default is ALI.
our kalima is recited many time in JK day in and day out.
If one does not understand the truth,depth and implications of the word Tawhid.
He/She I feel cannot be defined as an Ismaili ,the status of satpanthi may come after many life cycles if stuck to the true path.

We are first define as one of true part.(STM)

MHI in his farman used that a person without faith like a dust.
the word DUST being insignificant and useless to be worthy of probe.but deeper meaning ( baatin) it tell a particle with no life that is unblessed to be a part of a human,animal,plant or marine life.

If this word has Baatin perception than an important and significant word TAWHID definetly HAS a baatin/deeper and broader understanding.( Khudha ki Khudhai).


Ours is Sufi tariqa.Either accept the baatin concept or LEAVE it.
If suspicious of baatin even at 0.5% ,It is much much better to die as an spiritual athesist/Hindu/Christian than a Shariati ,because from satpanth line they are also above this class.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad

We only ACCEPT the shahada the TAWHID THERIN.
which tawhid expresses our tariqat ,haqiqati and marfat ,which is our chain of faith.

For A Satpanthi the word Allah by default is ALI.
our kalima is recited many time in JK day in and day out.
If one does not understand the truth,depth and implications of the word Tawhid.
He/She I feel cannot be defined as an Ismaili ,the status of satpanthi may come after many life cycles if stuck to the true path.

We are first define as one of true part.(STM)

MHI in his farman used that a person without faith like a dust.
the word DUST being insignificant and useless to be worthy of probe.but deeper meaning ( baatin) it tell a particle with no life that is unblessed to be a part of a human,animal,plant or marine life.

If this word has Baatin perception than an important and significant word TAWHID definetly HAS a baatin/deeper and broader understanding.( Khudha ki Khudhai).


Ours is Sufi tariqa.Either accept the baatin concept or LEAVE it.
If suspicious of baatin even at 0.5% ,It is much much better to die as an spiritual athesist/Hindu/Christian than a Shariati ,because from satpanth line they are also above this class.

Farmans need not your propositions, depositions or defaults. By default you can give any name to any one of your choice. Preamble is Farman signed by Hazar Imam and every true Ismaili has to follow it. In Preamble Imam has mentioned the Kalima which is the foundation of Tawhid. One can not attain ma'rifat without omitting Risalat of Prophet Muhammad and ethical values as mentioned in Quran, Farmans, and Ginans.
Dust is valuable. Physically heavenly bodies are made up of dust particles. Title of Mowla Ali is ABU TURAB means father of dust.

[Admin]

Dust is valuable. Physically heavenly bodies are made up of dust particles. Title of Mowla Ali is ABU TURAB means father of dust.

The beauty of Ismailism is that it is not rigid, it leaves us freedom to interpret. This said, Imam made a Farman in which he made clear that the value of a man without faith is less than the dust of the road.

[kmaherali]

Farmans need not your propositions, depositions or defaults. By default you can give any name to any one of your choice. Preamble is Farman signed by Hazar Imam and every true Ismaili has to follow it. In Preamble Imam has mentioned the Kalima which is the foundation of Tawhid. One can not attain ma'rifat without omitting Risalat of Prophet Muhammad and ethical values as mentioned in Quran, Farmans, and Ginans.

The constitution is the outward 'garb' that the Imam has chosen to represent our faith to the world at large. It is the zaher of our faith. The zaher is the scaffolding protecting the building of the batin as it is being built in individual lives. Once the enduring insight of the batin has been attained, the scaffolding can be discarded.

In his DJ message to the Jamat MHI expressed the importance of maintaining the faith of our forefathers. What was the faith of our forefathers? It was ALI SAHI ALLAH which means that Allah is non other than Ali.

Of course times have changed and the expression has changed, but the essence which is the batin will always remain the same.

[Admin]

1) Please request to all, do not make this thread a compilation of personal exchanges. I have deleted a dozen such post, mostly Nuseiri and Shivaathervedi insulting each others posts.

2) Note that the Constitution has in the Rules and Regulation part signed by the Imam, a provision that Farmans made after the Constitution will supersede any provision of the Constitution.

[shivaathervedi]

Farmans need not your propositions, depositions or defaults. By default you can give any name to any one of your choice. Preamble is Farman signed by Hazar Imam and every true Ismaili has to follow it. In Preamble Imam has mentioned the Kalima which is the foundation of Tawhid. One can not attain ma'rifat without omitting Risalat of Prophet Muhammad and ethical values as mentioned in Quran, Farmans, and Ginans.

The constitution is the outward 'garb' that the Imam has chosen to represent our faith to the world at large. It is the zaher of our faith. The zaher is the scaffolding protecting the building of the batin as it is being built in individual lives. Once the enduring insight of the batin has been attained, the scaffolding can be discarded.

In his DJ message to the Jamat MHI expressed the importance of maintaining the faith of our forefathers. What was the faith of our forefathers? It was ALI SAHI ALLAH which means that Allah is non other than Ali.

Of course times have changed and the expression has changed, but the essence which is the batin will always remain the same.

I do not understand why Admin deleted my answer to your above post, there weren't any insulting words from my side.
The question is about Preamble of our constitution and not constitution itself.
You cleverly wrote constitution to side line Preamble. THE PREAMBLE IS THE ESSENCE OF ISMAILI TARIQA AND SHOULD BE FOLLOWED BY ALL ISMAILIS. Let me mention your one of previous post in which you mentioned " DOCTRINES CHANGE ACCORDING TO TIMES".


PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
hussainkhan55 wrote:
The Imam represents all the three attributes . Sometimes the Imam decides to appoint a Pir to act in the capacity of the Bhrama, otherwise he is all the three at once.

Who said this 2 you bro??
Logically speaking, Shiva should be a PERSON manifested as that particular aspect of God like Vishnu and Brahma were.
Vishnu being manifested as Imam while Brahma as the Prophet and Pirs.
HE MUST BE LIVING AMONGST US and not yet died like ADAM. By this, I dont want to imply that Nauuuzibillah Adam is not shiva but on the contrary i just want to indicate that there might be a living manifestation of Shiva even today.
In ramayana it has been mentioned that Ram was Vishnu, Vashist the Brahma and Hanuman or HArmat the Shiva ....
So there might be a living Shiva in some point or the other ....
Who is it?

DOCTRINES CHANGE ACCORDING TO TIMES. At present there are only two important positions/offices in our tariqah - the Imam and the Pir. If there was a Shiva in our tradition then the Imam would make it apparent and not keep everyone guessing.

[Admin]

There is already a discussion on Preamble of the Constitution, this subject should be dealt there. Do not mention Preamble here. it is a totally different topic.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Allah the name & word for sathpanthis is the entity ALI ALI all the way be default.
The name sath mean truth ,so by that virtue they are blessed to to know ,accept core and true name ALI in composition in shell name as its signotary as Allah.(+249 other names before it)
In example of bananas It seeing the content n sweet pulp and not just the skin covering it.
Banana with peel is banana.
Banana pulp inside is banana.
What is eaten and absorbed into body important.
It is not 2 is by default is one but 1 understood (truth ,even proved in maths) as 1+0 = 1.
sore 1 is default by holding 1.
That is blessing in Satpanthis.which non Ismaili cannot assume,comprehend and believe,as they are raised blinded as per saying of Hz Ali and hinted from ayats of Quran.
One need not go bananas with igonarance ,j before peeling the skin and after peeling it is still banana.,One is its entity /useable true content. and one discard .Answer for that reflects one common sense.
Truth by itself in parts one to be accepted and one to discarded to reach the irrevocable conclusion of absolute truth.IF GOD IS TRUTH THAN IT CAN BE COMPREHENDED AND OBSERVED AND DETERMINED TO CONCLUDING ANSWER BY ANY RATIONAL MIND.
Satpanthi and Siratal mustakim are one meaning ,so a wider meaning word in Arabic is used in the Constitution.
A small child and even monkies understand two part of banana.
The content of banana is not formless,unassuming beyond compresion ,suspense. just with inbulit ignorance and belief never ever try to peel banana.
This differs a shariati and a sathpanti.
A low end Tariqati ( naa ghar ka naa ghat ka) can inspire itself move up to sathpanthi or fall down as shariati.
It can happen in one life cycle or many.
Choice is yours.

[shivaathervedi]

It is not appropriate that you leave alive one member's post and keep deleting other member's posts. So far you have deleted my 35%+ posts, I have record of all, and there wasn't hardly any insult in them!!
Let me re produce my answer to baba N's post.

shivaathervedi



Joined: 01 Feb 2016
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: 26 Oct 2017 07:55 am Post subject: Reply with quote Delete this post
nuseri wrote:
Ya Ali Madad.
Is the pages or an extract of the Constitution are read out regularly as farman in our JK.?
Does the word farman come before the word Constitution in any official Ismaili publication?
Does any matter of official,social or personal nature of MHI having and being signotary of AGAKHAN is a farman by default?
I have heard maybe two times in last 34 years mention with extract of the constitution by Alwaezin JK
To speak on this document one need an pure sathpanthi with high level of intellect and not ignorance/common sense to even pre qualify to be worthy enough in roundtable of say 12 debators if sitting in person.


Reply by Shiva;
You think apple is banana by default, this is weakness of your vision.
My take, Are Farmans on Dasond, Talaak, purification of bode before reciting of Du'a are read regularly in JKs?
Does any new Farman by Imam starts with,"Hey Jamaito this is my new Farman send to you".
Preamble is fundamental, basic foundation for all Ismailis to follow. Imam has clearly, openly, and briefly has explained the Tenets of Islam and Ismailism, and the line of hereditary and responsibilities of Imam of time.
This is true there is no mention of Dus Avtar, four jugs, Har e Krishna, Har e Rama, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiv, and other Hindu mythology stories. Even no mention of Ginans. I understand this hurt the staunch, die hard, conservative Satpunthis.
But times changed and according to Kmaherali, " DOCTRINES CHANGE ACCORDING TO TIMES".

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
As our is satpanth or true part or Sirat al mustakeem.
To be honest I just read properly for first time the line from the constitution.
My observation on grasping the baatin on real time basis while reading ( that is Sufi tariqa )
1.The IMAM Hussain Hussainis mandated from God in Quran as IMAM E Mubeen.
2. The word used are Amir ul momnern,that is the noor the piration ,a pir apoonting from bass.So that is status of Ali as Pir of momeens ,they can be few hundreds or many millions.
4.MHI say is the hereditary Imam and not appointed imam.
Nor say a hereditary amir ul mominern.
Both has different meaning of the same entity.
4.It clearly mentions Shia Doctrines those word start with million words of document coming under it starting with.
Genuine hadits,khutba of Hz Ali,Saying of Imam,Doctrines of Pir ,Syed and Dai ,books of scholars .
To accept or suspect these documents and content and take few life span.
The doctrine states Ali as creator ,who created the begining (awal).
IMAMAT.
that official office of Amir ul momneen came to be known 1400 years back.
The cardinal doctrines that is Khutba.e bayn where ALI claims himself as God in first person. That is Shia doctrine.
5.there atr over 30 hadith which prophet praises,hint and direct to ALI as God in a covert way.
Hadith that position(IMAMAT) of Ali is like Allah in Surah ekhlaas.
To see face of Ali is ibaadat.( not Allah)
Quran is with Ali and Ali is with Quran.( not Allah).
The greatest role of being a Marifati prophet was introduce the Quran and also introduce its author in a covert way the same time.
Status of Imam and office of Amir ul momnern .
Which first relates to baatin and his status of God and second one of Pir,Amir ul momnern,wali,etc.all very very much part of SHIA DOCTRINE.
The word Tawhid represent extending the kalima ,what we recite daily ,how we believe in it or suspect it ,it is on varing Faith/ intellect level that person.
To know our constitution ,one must be able to deeply understand the Quran ,not just ability to read cunningly.
So any level of Rasikunfilm or above to explain the baatin of Quran or even Constitution.
MHI said zahir is what is written is there but what is understood( baatin ) is not there.
An ignorant will banana is a fruit ,that is false ,it is a herb.
A common sense will say I see it.
Rational sense will peel and discard its skin taste,eat and absorb into its body.
So an ignorant who cannot status of banana or the word Lah and Tawhid,trying to teach that book.
Prophet appointed Amir ul momnern and not Imam,to him he was praying if hadith is closely observed.( IMAM existed before the world came into existence).
So all Word of Satpant ,Doctrinea by default become subsect and exibit under the wordings SHIA DOCTRINE.
Hz Ali and many Imam said that not to get into argument with an Ignorant and Jesus Christ said to change your path if you see an ignorant.
In our Sufi tariqa our heart connects to ALI and not bounded or binded the zahiri levels of lines of Constitution, Conference or a petty booklet of ITREB.
This is my last posting as I am taking a break ,may comeback if I feel this webiste is on true path and worthy of having me.
I standby the words of Hz Ali and Jesus Christ.
May Ali bless you all.

[Admin]

You think apple is banana by default, this is weakness of your vision..

-------------------------------------------

NOTE FROM ADMIN
I suggest you and Nuseiri take your dispute on direct email to each other and not in this Forum. This Forum is not a place where you address each other, it is a place to address issues, not people's characters.

I have equality deleted posts from both whenever they have contained any personal insults or harsh words or whenever they have not followed the rules of postings which I have reminded many times.

[shivaathervedi]

You think apple is banana by default, this is weakness of your vision..

-------------------------------------------

NOTE FROM ADMIN
I suggest you and Nuseiri take your dispute on direct email to each other and not in this Forum. This Forum is not a place where you address each other, it is a place to address issues, not people's characters.

I have equality deleted posts from both whenever they have contained any personal insults or harsh words or whenever they have not followed the rules of postings which I have reminded many times.

Please provide me email address of Mr. Nuseri. Mine is shiva athervedi.

[shivaathervedi]

The things should not be seen only in Satpunthi perspective. There are Ismailis living in other regions and they do not follow Satpunthi philosophy of yugs, karma, brahma, vishnu, or avtars.Even majority is not aware of these names or Satpunthi vocabularies. To over come these philosophical difficulties Imam has given uniform doctrine prescribed in Preamble. If some one find any batin in Preamble good for him/her. Words speak for them selves.
It is strange that you did not read properly whole document and started criticizing it.
Can you explain, you wrote," The Imam Hussain Hussaini mandated from God in Quran"?
And Amirul Mu'mineen is Noor e Piraten?
Mostly Shia literature was developed in 15th/16th century.

[Admin]

Mostly Shia literature was developed in 15th/16th century.

As I have requested you in the past, please start reading some books on Ismailism and Shia lit. because your statements are sometimes laughable. Imamat is Shia doctrine, in fact it is central to Shia doctrines. Do you know when the concept of Imamat was explained in Shia literature? Do you have any knowledge of Ghadir e Khum event, was that in the 16th Century?

Please read Shia books and inform yourself before preaching Sunni propaganda here..

It is this kind of nonsense that keep serious people out of this Forum and of course postings from extremists like yourself and Nuseiri.

[shivaathervedi]

Mostly Shia literature was developed in 15th/16th century.

As I have requested you in the past, please start reading some books on Ismailism and Shia lit. because your statements are sometimes laughable. Imamat is Shia doctrine, in fact it is central to Shia doctrines. Do you know when the concept of Imamat was explained in Shia literature? Do you have any knowledge of Ghadir e Khum event, was that in the 16th Century?

Please read Shia books and inform yourself before preaching Sunni propaganda here..

It is this kind of nonsense that keep serious people out of this Forum and of course postings from extremists like yourself and Nuseiri.

You should have paid full attention before bashing me. My quote which you quoted is," MOSTLY Shia literature was developed in 15th/16th century". You did paid attention on the word MOSTLY.
Historically mostly Shia Literature was developed in Safavid era in 15th and 16th century. Please equip your self with proper knowledge. I have studied Ismaili literature from which I have been quoting with proofs, obviously that Ismaili literature is produced, printed, and published by Ismaili institutions.

My posts are not nonsense but some people's thinking is rigid and backward, instead of competing they kept complaining and instigated you to to block the threads or delete the account. They want to play 'gilli dhanda' with their like minded. I never complain about them but encouraged them to reply and compete.

[Admin]

You can not hide behind the word "mostly". What you are saying is complete nonsense, it is like saying Ismailism was developed in the 20th Century by the IIS.

Shiism was already strongly defined and the Safavid have not invented anything new. They may have written a lot on the matter but definitely they did not invent it nor define it. So it is a request not to try to mislead the reader.

[shivaathervedi]

You can not hide behind the word "mostly". What you are saying is complete nonsense, it is like saying Ismailism was developed in the 20th Century by the IIS.

Shiism was already strongly defined and the Safavid have not invented anything new. They may have written a lot on the matter but definitely they did not invent it nor define it. So it is a request not to try to mislead the reader.

IIS is promoting the doctrines mentioned in Preamble. Please read the history of EARLY ISMAILISM and then debate so that readers should know what is nonsense and who is nonsense.
Safavids were not scholars but they hired scholars of high caliber to create and propagate the Shii literature.