Doing away with ACTS of sharia

[Admin]

I don't say hari, I say Allah in the Dua and in Zikr. In Ginan we should respect what is writen, if the ginan says Ali rupe Hari awaiya, we should say the same when reciting the ginan. We can not change the words or the meaning and then say boliya Pir Sadardin, it would be a lie.

[shivaathervedi]

I don't say hari, I say Allah in the Dua and in Zikr. In Ginan we should respect what is writen, if the ginan says Ali rupe Hari awaiya, we should say the same when reciting the ginan. We can not change the words or the meaning and then say boliya Pir Sadardin, it would be a lie.

Is it;
Ali rupey Hari aawiya
OR
Hari rupey Ali aawiya

Please quote the first 2 lines of Ginan of Ali rupey Hari aawiya.

With due respect to Ginans;
I have heard from few Ismaili scholars that 600/700 years back Ginans were used as conversion tools. They argued that as in Fatimid era NEO PLATONIC MODEL was used to understand Ismaili concepts, same way in subcontinent THE VEDANTIC PHILOSOPHY was used.

[Admin]

There are 4 kind of info in the ginans: History, Imamat, Propheties, Commandments.

Oups did I forgot Conversion? Not really. In the same way any religion comes in a context and in a physical place, it takes as background the place, time and context and makes sure to be understood by the people who receive it. So Islam and Quran came in the Arabia of the 7th Century CE where lots of people were ignorant and idol worshiping and the surrounding religions were Christianity and Judaism and idolatry.

The prevalent highest God Idol was named Allah by the idols worshipers of Mecca. Thus the vocabulary of the message was adapted to those circumstances.

Was the message of Islam sent to "convert" only? Convert the Jews and Christians and the idol worshipers by using their vocabulary? Perhaps part of it?

Whatever your reply, the same goes for the Ginans.

[shivaathervedi]

There are 4 kind of info in the ginans: History, Imamat, Propheties, Commandments.

Oups did I forgot Conversion? Not really. In the same way any religion comes in a context and in a physical place, it takes as background the place, time and context and makes sure to be understood by the people who receive it. So Islam and Quran came in the Arabia of the 7th Century CE where lots of people were ignorant and idol worshiping and the surrounding religions were Christianity and Judaism and idolatry.

The prevalent highest God Idol was named Allah by the idols worshipers of Mecca. Thus the vocabulary of the message was adapted to those circumstances.

Was the message of Islam sent to "convert" only? Convert the Jews and Christians and the idol worshipers by using their vocabulary? Perhaps part of it?

Whatever your reply, the same goes for the Ginans.

You did not mentioned the Ginan I asked for Ali rupey Hari aawiya!!

In pagan Arabs before Prophet there did existed the concept of supreme God. As they were idol worshipers, they named it AL-ILAH, though the real word in use was Allah. Please read the following paragraphs:

"The term Allah (Arabic: الله, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for God and is most likely derived from a contraction of the Arabic article al- and ilāh, which means "deity or god" to al-lāh meaning "the [sole] deity, God." There is another theory that traces the etymology of the word to the Aramaic Alāhā.

Today's Arabic speakers from all religious backgrounds (Muslims, Christians, and Jews) use the word Allah to mean God. In pre-Islamic Arabia, pagan Meccans used Al-ilah as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.

The first-known translation of the Bible into Arabic, which took place in the 9th century, uses the word Allah for God. In fact, Arab Christians were using the word Allah for God prior to the dawn of Islam, and it is important to note that they were using it in place of Elohim, but not in place of Yahweh."

My question; the Hindus call idols their gods, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, are these idols real gods? Why to degrade word Allah used by Hazar Imam many times and which is mentioned in Preamble.

If you go through unlimited Bhajans, you will find their history, mythology commandments, ethical and moral values, religion. methods of worship and so on, same with the Ginans.

You wrote,"Oops did I forgot conversion", No you did not. When Prophet introduced Islam many pagans, Christians, and some Jews CONVERTED to Islam. Same thing happened 600/700 years back and Pirs converted Hindus of that time, and for that Ginans in replacement of Bhajans used as conversion tools.

[Admin]

https://carleton.ca/islamstudies/isc201 ... 10:35%20am

Aaron Viengkhou (Harvard University), “A New Model of Conversion: Esoteric Hermeneutics and Sapiential Narrative in the Ismaili Ginans.”


The composition of the ginans is traditionally ascribed to the historical pirs who facilitated the spread of Ismailism to the Indian subcontinent. As such, the ginans have often been read as a genre of conversion literature. However, the simplistic narrative of conversion fails to account for the dynamic historical and sociological processes involved in the development of the ginan tradition; it also fails to appreciate the specific epistemological and metaphysical orientation of the ginans.

Addressing these shortcomings, this paper proposes to re-envision the conversion model by situating the ginans vis-à-vis the classical Ismaili; conception of esoteric hermeneutics (tawil). It is argued that both the ginans and tawil describe the same trajectory leading from exoteric religious forms to esoteric religious truths (haqaiq).

The so-called conversion implied in the ginans, then, is best understood not as a re-structuring of political and religious identity, but rather as a spiritual re-orientation towards the Haqaiq.

[Admin]

My question; the Hindus call idols their gods, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, are these idols real gods?

These may be attributes like the attributes of Allah, they may be represented by names or by idols or other symbols like Kaba type black stones or Shiv ling whatever but these by themselves are not more idols then attributes such as destroyer, maintainer, merciful and so on. These are symbols and the world of symbols need great intelligence and great opening of the mind to be understood.

[shivaathervedi]

https://carleton.ca/islamstudies/isc201 ... 10:35%20am

Aaron Viengkhou (Harvard University), “A New Model of Conversion: Esoteric Hermeneutics and Sapiential Narrative in the Ismaili Ginans.”


The composition of the ginans is traditionally ascribed to the historical pirs who facilitated the spread of Ismailism to the Indian subcontinent. As such, the ginans have often been read as a genre of conversion literature. However, the simplistic narrative of conversion fails to account for the dynamic historical and sociological processes involved in the development of the ginan tradition; it also fails to appreciate the specific epistemological and metaphysical orientation of the ginans.

Addressing these shortcomings, this paper proposes to re-envision the conversion model by situating the ginans vis-à-vis the classical Ismaili; conception of esoteric hermeneutics (tawil). It is argued that both the ginans and tawil describe the same trajectory leading from exoteric religious forms to esoteric religious truths (haqaiq).

The so-called conversion implied in the ginans, then, is best understood not as a re-structuring of political and religious identity, but rather as a spiritual re-orientation towards the Haqaiq.

What is written by Mr. Aaron veingkhou is also applicable to Bhajans and mystic or sufi poetry. Different poets from different back grounds and cultural impacts have used different symbolism. The above paragraph by Aaron also suggests Ginans as conversion tool including esoteric hermeneutics. The same hermeneutics we can find in the poetry of Rumi, Shah Latif Bhittai, Sinai, Iraqi and others. Ginans travel from Hari to Ali conversion keeping Hindu mythology in mind and that was successful.

[shivaathervedi]

My question; the Hindus call idols their gods, Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva, are these idols real gods?

These may be attributes like the attributes of Allah, they may be represented by names or by idols or other symbols like Kaba type black stones or Shiv ling whatever but these by themselves are not more idols then attributes such as destroyer, maintainer, merciful and so on. These are symbols and the world of symbols need great intelligence and great opening of the mind to be understood.

Still waiting for the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'!!
We can not compare attributes of Allah with idolism. Hindiu brothers and sisters do believe in REAL VISHNU, BRAHMA, SHIVA. Their idols are not just art collections. Is there any idol as symbol of NOOR? When Nirnijin is Noor, one is unable to make its idol. What ever statues or idols we see are art collection not meant for worship.
By the way are you the same old Admin or new face. I feel your postings are not hitting me hard as old Admin. Previous ones I felt like, he is hitting me with sledge hammer, and yours I feel like you are throwing Rose petal at me.

[Admin]

Still waiting for the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'!!
We can not compare attributes of Allah with idolism. Hindiu brothers and sisters do believe in REAL VISHNU, BRAHMA, SHIVA. Their idols are not just art collections. Is there any idol as symbol of NOOR? When Nirnijin is Noor, one is unable to make its idol. What ever statues or idols we see are art collection not meant for worship.
By the way are you the same old Admin or new face. I feel your postings are not hitting me hard as old Admin. Previous ones I felt like, he is hitting me with sledge hammer, and yours I feel like you are throwing Rose petal at me.

The sledge hammer will come back once you come back to your old style of posting nonsense, which I believe is just a matter of time..

[shivaathervedi]

Still waiting for the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'!!
We can not compare attributes of Allah with idolism. Hindiu brothers and sisters do believe in REAL VISHNU, BRAHMA, SHIVA. Their idols are not just art collections. Is there any idol as symbol of NOOR? When Nirnijin is Noor, one is unable to make its idol. What ever statues or idols we see are art collection not meant for worship.
By the way are you the same old Admin or new face. I feel your postings are not hitting me hard as old Admin. Previous ones I felt like, he is hitting me with sledge hammer, and yours I feel like you are throwing Rose petal at me.

The sledge hammer will come back once you come back to your old style of posting nonsense, which I believe is just a matter of time..

Do you know the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya' which you quoted, still waiting. I have patience, can wait till dooms day.
For sledge hammer I have arranged a new HELMET. Is original sledge hammer back from visiting Pak/India?

[Admin]

sure meanwhile here is some more confusion for you

Eji Nar Naklank keri vaat koi-k jaanne ji
jene Sat Gur miliyaa saar sohiy pichhaanne ji 1

Eji Sat Gur sat kari jaann Mahamad rupe ji
aaj Nirinjan saam sadaay Ali rup-e ji 2

[shivaathervedi]

sure meanwhile here is some more confusion for you

Eji Nar Naklank keri vaat koi-k jaanne ji
jene Sat Gur miliyaa saar sohiy pichhaanne ji 1

Eji Sat Gur sat kari jaann Mahamad rupe ji
aaj Nirinjan saam sadaay Ali rup-e ji 2

To new face of Admin.

Question is about your quotation of the Ginan 'Ali Rupey Hari Aawiya'. So far you have not provided the Ginan. If you can't find call HELP LINE.
Ramji, Premji, Chandraji, Krishanji, Karimji Help...Help...Help..

I am aware of the two other parts you mentioned. The line which you mentioned, AAJ NIRINJIN SAAM(SHIYAM) SADEY ALI RUPEY JI, in original text is, AAJ NIRINJIN SAAM (SHIYAM) SADEY "HARI' JI. In original text Hari is mentioned. After 1930's all HARI CONVERTED TO ALI in Ginans.

[Admin]

Lets pursue this in the appropriate thread which is changes in ginans. Your statement about 1930 conversion is a lie of course. There is nothing new in that. We are used to.

This thread should be back on track from now on.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I hope and wish that Admin makes this khutba wordings ( not the photo to save space on main page as a permanent feature.
Here is an extract taken from shischat website.

“The position of Ali (A.S) amongst the people is like Surat Qul Hu Allahu Ahad in the Qur’an.”
Muslim, 1/48; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/299; Al-Nisa’i, 27; Musnad Ahmad, 6/299; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 191.
My personal view.
1.Allah has defined himself as Noor and also posses physical feature .( no where he has stated that he is faceless or formless)
2 ALI has defined himself as bearer of Noo seen with physical biological body
3.Noor is divine intellect which CAN ONLY BE sourced to a LIVING human body.
4.IMAMAT never ever dies,read farmans.The biological phase of Imams cycles in the next in progeny as LIVING bodies.
5.Any statement from unknown recognized source in not valid in civil court of law ,so would all words written in any holy books can be assumed null,void and invalid.
6.if one reads on hadith of prophet for ALI ,
he has almost opened the missing ayats of holy book. And he only presented the noor ( words of God) out of his body/ tongue
But in REALITY his heart/tongue, he expressed the source of it to ALI.
If a person cannot see God or even offer prayers it is wasted ( only intent may be credited).

One hadith say your love ( ishq ) for ALI will save one from hell fire.( just imagine the fate those suspecting and hating ALI)

Acts of God have started on humanity ,All mysteries will unravel and truth will slowly and surely come on forefront.
It is said ask right questions get the right answers.
Like a wayward question from a journalist to MHI got indifferent reply and MHI reply to a Christian spouse of an Ismaili who asked precise to the point question.
Inshallah if I get chance in zahiri level to ask ALI an question.
It would be.
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE the final name of ALLAH in Quran and the truth behind it?

[shivaathervedi]

To the writer of above post;
Do you believe H H THE AGA KHAN IS GOD?

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
I hope and wish that Admin makes this khutba wordings ( not the photo to save space on main page as a permanent feature.
Here is an extract taken from shischat website.

“The position of Ali (A.S) amongst the people is like Surat Qul Hu Allahu Ahad in the Qur’an.”
Muslim, 1/48; Al-Tirmidhi, 2/299; Al-Nisa’i, 27; Musnad Ahmad, 6/299; Ibn Al-Maghazeli, 191.
My personal view.
1.Allah has defined himself as Noor and also posses physical feature .( no where he has stated that he is faceless or formless)
2 ALI has defined himself as bearer of Noo seen with physical biological body
3.Noor is divine intellect which CAN ONLY BE sourced to a LIVING human body.
4.IMAMAT never ever dies,read farmans.The biological phase of Imams cycles in the next in progeny as LIVING bodies.
5.Any statement from unknown recognized source in not valid in civil court of law ,so would all words written in any holy books can be assumed null,void and invalid.
6.if one reads on hadith of prophet for ALI ,
he has almost opened the missing ayats of holy book. And he only presented the noor ( words of God) out of his body/ tongue
But in REALITY his heart/tongue, he expressed the source of it to ALI.
If a person cannot see God or even offer prayers it is wasted ( only intent may be credited).

One hadith say your love ( ishq ) for ALI will save one from hell fire.( just imagine the fate those suspecting and hating ALI)

Acts of God have started on humanity ,All mysteries will unravel and truth will slowly and surely come on forefront.
It is said ask right questions get the right answers.
Like a wayward question from a journalist to MHI got indifferent reply and MHI reply to a Christian spouse of an Ismaili who asked precise to the point question.
Inshallah if I get chance in zahiri level to ask ALI an question.
It would be.
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE the final name of ALLAH in Quran and the truth behind it?

This is a repeated post by writer. This suppose to be have in the thread "Khutba of Mowla Ali". Nice to see you admitted INSHA'ALLH in your last paragraph.Truth is apparent. SACHI BAAT MU(N)H PE AAJATI HAI.

You wrote:
Inshallah if I get chance in zahiri level to ask ALI an question.
It would be.
WHY DID YOU CHOOSE the final name of ALLAH in Quran and the truth behind it?
Follow what Allah said in Quran. The name Allah will stay till dooms day and that what Imam has mentioned in Du'a 41 times with its derivatives.

Noor is not a substance therefore it does not has physical form. In Ginans it is called NIRINJIN.

Divine Intellect is bestowed on any one chosen by Allah.

God's laws and laws of Nature can not be challenged in worldly courts. Only insane can think of that.

You wrote:
One hadith say your love ( ishq ) for ALI will save one from hell fire.( just imagine the fate those suspecting and hating ALI)

Those who disobey Imam is not saved from punishment. Accountability is must.

Every one must understand the meaning of Du'a and pay attention to PREAMBLE that what Ismailim is.

[nuseri]

YA ALI MADAD:
The cardinal khutba of moula Ali speaking as GOD in first person grammar as I I I. and Not at mercy or grant from any brand name or tom dick or harry.when HE HE says most high that mean many name of Gods as understood and still believed upon till today as a part of their faith and religious practice.
All our Pirs,Sayeds have beautifully stated the whole & part of khutba e bayn.
We stand up and pray as part of our tasbih.
Awal TU ,AAKHIR tu
Zahir TU,baatin TU.
Ran TU ,Karim TU.
Ya Rehman Ya rahim.
We have whatsover no time ,energy ,inclination or any scope,inclination to address it to brand name Allah but ONLY N ONLY to generic, true and seen name of ALI
Inshallah said by mean by the will of ALI
When I take name of Allah my nostril takes in only Ali from Ali+ lah = Allah.same as it only take oxygen from air (3 more gases).So the word Laa disappear/dissolves by default with me.
The cardinal and important ginan /qasidas say.
Sum Hume dum Ali Ali ( zero scope of the name Allah).
Ali japo Ali japo muniwar bhai ( not brand name Allah japo).
We do also acknowledge ,respect and use the names of Allah and Mohammed in our holy trinity ,they have own catalyst (temporary/dissolving) value ( not absolute value) in our submissions and Zikr.
As a path to marifat come via tariqat and haqiqat for Ismailis maybe for non Ismailis it has four steps of more .

[shivaathervedi]

YA ALI MADAD:
The cardinal khutba of moula Ali speaking as GOD in first person grammar as I I I. and Not at mercy or grant from any brand name or tom dick or harry.when HE HE says most high that mean many name of Gods as understood and still believed upon till today as a part of their faith and religious practice.
All our Pirs,Sayeds have beautifully stated the whole & part of khutba e bayn.
We stand up and pray as part of our tasbih.
Awal TU ,AAKHIR tu
Zahir TU,baatin TU.
Ran TU ,Karim TU.
Ya Rehman Ya rahim.
We have whatsover no time ,energy ,inclination or any scope,inclination to address it to brand name Allah but ONLY N ONLY to generic, true and seen name of ALI
Inshallah said by mean by the will of ALI
When I take name of Allah my nostril takes in only Ali from Ali+ lah = Allah.same as it only take oxygen from air (3 more gases).So the word Laa disappear/dissolves by default with me.
The cardinal and important ginan /qasidas say.
Sum Hume dum Ali Ali ( zero scope of the name Allah).
Ali japo Ali japo muniwar bhai ( not brand name Allah japo).
We do also acknowledge ,respect and use the names of Allah and Mohammed in our holy trinity ,they have own catalyst (temporary/dissolving) value ( not absolute value) in our submissions and Zikr.
As a path to marifat come via tariqat and haqiqat for Ismailis maybe for non Ismailis it has four steps of more .

Are you writing about Ali Murtaza or Al Ali?

Ismailis do not believe in Trinity. Noor is not a substance. Noor is not a three face entity.
In original text of Ginans came the name Hari and not Ali.

In qasidah (which you gave reference) contains a quatrain describing four stages including Shari'ah " TU HI SHAH E SHARI'ATAM ". Read the qasidah with meaning.
You wrote Insha Allah and not Insha Ali. Allah is there in your subconscious.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali MADAD:
When Hz Ali says HE IS THE CREATOR and bring life to all n sundry.Full stop
Those include prophets there I'd no if or but for an faithful Ismaili.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali MADAD:
When Hz Ali says HE IS THE CREATOR and bring life to all n sundry.Full stop
Those include prophets there I'd no if or but for an faithful Ismaili.

In the Khutba e Bayaniah posted by Admin, the very first line reads;
I AM THE SIGN OF MOST HIGH.
Obviously Mowla Ali is talking about the higher authority that he is sign of that authority.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali MADAD:
That is ignorant.
If I say I am sign of haqiqati number 1 NUSERI.
so I have my original name and NUSERI is my sign that signature/log in name in this Forum.
As I have entered this forum without even this khutba 3 years back ,that word,name Allah is signature /sign of Ali in Quran.
He did take name Allah as there are 349 other singnature names given by him to different prophets.
So he is sign of the most high /God ( 349 brand name from creation and life on earth.)
In end he says he is the supreme kalam.
Which is existences and name of God.
That no word higher than supreme.
That is shahda or bismillahi rehman e rahim.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali MADAD:
That is ignorant.
If I say I am sign of haqiqati number 1 NUSERI.
so I have my original name and NUSERI is my sign that signature/log in name in this Forum.
As I have entered this forum without even this khutba 3 years back ,that word,name Allah is signature /sign of Ali in Quran.
He did take name Allah as there are 349 other singnature names given by him to different prophets.
So he is sign of the most high /God ( 349 brand name from creation and life on earth.)
In end he says he is the supreme kalam.
Which is existences and name of God.
That no word higher than supreme.
That is shahda or bismillahi rehman e rahim.

In Bismillah and Shahadah comes name of Allah and not Ali. In Du'a we recite name of Allah 41 times with its derivatives. ( if you have paid attention or know meaning of Du'a which is foundation of our Tariqa),
Still I am waiting reply from you;
IS H H THE AGA KHAN GOD?
God has unlimited names and not 349!!
You wrote," If I say......". Ifs and Buts create weakness. You are sign of not yourself but sign of your dad, without him (dad) you were nothing, no sign.

[nuseri]

YA ALI MADAD.
FOR me our Hazar Imam is/was.always be Moula ALI, creator/God ).the present phase is of Shah Karim ,but HH the Aga Khan is a decorative title.
I am blessed to be born as MARFATI ,whose status of Ali as God came from faith of my forefathers ,my past life credit carry over
( see MHI farman of takht nahisni).
As children are born in material wealthy family ( 5-6 levels)over normal wealth ).Same value and weightage of Spiritual wealth.
HAZAR IMAM is GOD of the whole world.
Generations got over 349 of HIS names in world thru his prophets.
Allah was final name/sign used thru prophet Mohammed.

NUSERI ALI ALI BOLIYA.
PECHE HONI HOI SO HOI RE.
( past signature now current signature)

[nuseri]

Ya Ali MADAD:
I AM NOT nor anybody is sign of his or her father.It is medevial thinking of ignorant that father name is needed for school admission,that is also of the past,even mother is allowed for single parent case.
I saw a biilboard saying that narendra modi is a sign of honesty.It does not say narendre is sign of modi.The whole world know Modi of character,value and lmage he posses or identified with and none so ever with father name damodardas.

One can choose/select and DECIDE what sing name or image or co relate its self.which never always is fathers name.
I am the sign of NUSERI ,that is the name selected by me express my status/persona or mystery in it.
so are the 349 names of the God canes to humanity one after another.they are the MOST HIGH to concern followers of that name ,so ALI is sign ( entity ) of ALL THOSE BRAND NAMES.
Allah is not an entity but a name name NOTHING MORE.with soft mystery in it composition to be searched.

HUM TO WOH BANDHE HAI.
JO ALLAH SABD TO THOD DE.
AUR USEME SE 'LAA' TO KAR DE HAVAA.
AUR ALI KI HAQIQAT KO KARE BAYAN SAREE QAYNAT KO.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali MADAD:
I AM NOT nor anybody is sign of his or her father.It is medevial thinking of ignorant that father name is needed for school admission,that is also of the past,even mother is allowed for single parent case.
I saw a biilboard saying that narendra modi is a sign of honesty.It does not say narendre is sign of modi.The whole world know Modi of character,value and lmage he posses or identified with and none so ever with father name damodardas.

One can choose/select and DECIDE what sing name or image or co relate its self.which never always is fathers name.
I am the sign of NUSERI ,that is the name selected by me express my status/persona or mystery in it.
so are the 349 names of the God canes to humanity one after another.they are the MOST HIGH to concern followers of that name ,so ALI is sign ( entity ) of ALL THOSE BRAND NAMES.
Allah is not an entity but a name name NOTHING MORE.with soft mystery in it composition to be searched.

HUM TO WOH BANDHE HAI.
JO ALLAH SABD TO THOD DE.
AUR USEME SE 'LAA' TO KAR DE HAVAA.
AUR ALI KI HAQIQAT KO KARE BAYAN SAREE QAYNAT KO.

Qavi ji apni sha'iri me wazan paida karo. Ek line Puna ja rahi hai, dusri Ahmadabad, teesri Dilli aur chothi Bangla desh. You wrote, from the word Allah dismiss La and rest will remain whatr ALH and not ALI.
Shame on your ignorance. You wrote, "Allah is not an entity but a name nothing more". If you are an Ismaili and reciting Du'a, count how many times you take name of Allah in Du'a.
Murtaza Ali is because of Allah. Ismaili Imams from Ali to Karim have taken and remembered name of Allah in Farmans and speeches and Khutbas.
You quoted Narendra Modi is a sign of honesty. Wadeel, honesty is a quality and not a sign.
Son is because of Father. Dad says, 'aa maro dhekro chhey, mara uuper gayo chhey', son can't be father of his father, may be have qualities of father. Were you admitted in school without your father's name?!
Hazar Imam with title Aga Khan never claimed publicly he is God!! Even he was disturbed and annoyed when in 1983 LIFE MAGAZINE dubbed him as DEMI GOD.

[Admin]

First point is there is a difference between the name of an entity and the entity itself. For example If someone see my image in a mirror, he will say this is Admin. But what he means really is that this is the image of Admin in the mirror. Same thing when you say a glass of water, what you mean is a glass full of water, not that the glass material is made with water.

secondly most of the discussions and dispute I see here is because different people refer to different things when they use the same terminology. It is Ok to have your own terminology but do not make it a personal dispute about this.

As to "Demi God", you are right he is not. There are many articles on him called God, not "demi-god" to which the Imam has never objected. In any interpretation, shariati or haqiqati, "Demi-God" can not apply to the body or to the Noor of the Imam.

Whatever his communication officer wrote to Life magazine is of his own and we do not believe these officers are infallible. Actually one of them confirmed to me that it has happened that Imam was very annoyed with some of the vocabulary and some of the translations the Communication Officer used and she had to apologies to the Imam for her mistakes in more than one occasion. What the Communication person say is not a Farman.

For some people "Hazar Imam" refers to the body which is perishable, for some Imam refers to the LIGHT, the Noor which manifest itself through that same perishable body. Obviously there will never be a meeting of minds between these tho interpretations. let it be. Just respect the fact that understanding and interpretation is a personnel process.

admin

[shivaathervedi]

First point is there is a difference between the name of an entity and the entity itself. For example If someone see my image in a mirror, he will say this is Admin. But what he means really is that this is the image of Admin in the mirror. Same thing when you say a glass of water, what you mean is a glass full of water, not that the glass material is made with water.

secondly most of the discussions and dispute I see here is because different people refer to different things when they use the same terminology. It is Ok to have your own terminology but do not make it a personal dispute about this.

As to "Demi God", you are right he is not. There are many articles on him called God, not "demi-god" to which the Imam has never objected. In any interpretation, shariati or haqiqati, "Demi-God" can not apply to the body or to the Noor of the Imam.

Whatever his communication officer wrote to Life magazine is of his own and we do not believe these officers are infallible. Actually one of them confirmed to me that it has happened that Imam was very annoyed with some of the vocabulary and some of the translations the Communication Officer used and she had to apologies to the Imam for her mistakes in more than one occasion. What the Communication person say is not a Farman.

For some people "Hazar Imam" refers to the body which is perishable, for some Imam refers to the LIGHT, the Noor which manifest itself through that same perishable body. Obviously there will never be a meeting of minds between these tho interpretations. let it be. Just respect the fact that understanding and interpretation is a personnel process.

admin

In one of my previous post, I wrote;
If some one believes Ali is Allah, or Jesus Christ is God, or people pray to cow, monkey, tree, or an elephant it does not matter to me. it is their faith.
Regarding my self I wrote;
Ali is every thing for me but Allah.
In Shia Hadiths and in Ismaili literature it is mentioned that Allah created Noori e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali in primordial times. This is also mentioned in Ginans.

You wrote, "First point is there is a difference between the name of an entity and the entity itself. For example If someone see my image in a mirror, he will say this is Admin. But what he means really is that this is the image of Admin in the mirror".
Let me analyse what you wrote; The name adopted by the real entity matters because the entity wants to be called with the name He chosen for identification. In Admin's mirror the image will be of only Admin's face but in the mirror of Allah all images can be seen including Admin. Every particle in universe is Mazhar of Allah.
Imam was annoyed at being called Demi God because he does not want to be called God. In clarification to Time Magazine in 1984, Hazar Imam refuted that claim by mentioning the Kakima Shahadah which Imam has quoted in Preamble of Constitution, and in that Kalima there is no mention of word Ali.
I take the face value of what Imam says or guides. Inductions, deductions and ta'weel by Tom, Dick, and Harry will create confusion in already confused Ismaili youth.

[Admin]

Imam was annoyed at being called Demi God because he does not want to be called God. In clarification to Time Magazine in 1984, Hazar Imam refuted that claim by mentioning the Kakima Shahadah which Imam has quoted in Preamble of Constitution, and in that Kalima there is no mention of word Ali.
I take the face value of what Imam says or guides. Inductions, deductions and ta'weel by Tom, Dick, and Harry will create confusion in already confused Ismaili youth.

I think you have to go a long way before understanding the basics of Ismailism. if you can not understand even a small pert of what I wrote in my post which you have quoted, there is really no breathing space left nor any hope left that you can be taught anything. When you can not understand a simple language sentence which I wrote, how are you going to understand what our Imam is saying?

And throwing slogan that Imam refuted this and that when you have no clue is just plainly ridiculous. The Imam has not refuted anything in Time Magazine 1984. We are fed up of your misinterpretations and we consider that you are knowingly trying to mislead people on this Forum. In 1998, Itar-Tass published an article saying "The spiritual leader of the murids, the followers of the "living God," or crown prince Aga Khan IV, is accompanied on the Badakhshan journey by President Emomali Rakhmonov." There was no objection from the Imam. (http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/25132)

Again the same request, please get some education on the basics of Ismaili faith and then only come back to discuss here. Take some distance and time before posting in any Doctrinal related thread.

Our "Imam" is LIGHT, nor flesh. If your Imam is flesh,you are lucky today, you have the choice of dime and dozens of Imam in the Masjids of your country.

[shivaathervedi]

Imam was annoyed at being called Demi God because he does not want to be called God. In clarification to Time Magazine in 1984, Hazar Imam refuted that claim by mentioning the Kakima Shahadah which Imam has quoted in Preamble of Constitution, and in that Kalima there is no mention of word Ali.
I take the face value of what Imam says or guides. Inductions, deductions and ta'weel by Tom, Dick, and Harry will create confusion in already confused Ismaili youth.

I think you have to go a long way before understanding the basics of Ismailism. if you can not understand even a small pert of what I wrote in my post which you have quoted, there is really no breathing space left nor any hope left that you can be taught anything. When you can not understand a simple language sentence which I wrote, how are you going to understand what our Imam is saying?

And throwing slogan that Imam refuted this and that when you have no clue is just plainly ridiculous. The Imam has not refuted anything in Time Magazine 1984. We are fed up of your misinterpretations and we consider that you are knowingly trying to mislead people on this Forum. In 1998, Itar-Tass published an article saying "The spiritual leader of the murids, the followers of the "living God," or crown prince Aga Khan IV, is accompanied on the Badakhshan journey by President Emomali Rakhmonov." There was no objection from the Imam. (http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/25132)

Again the same request, please get some education on the basics of Ismaili faith and then only come back to discuss here. Take some distance and time before posting in any Doctrinal related thread.

Our "Imam" is LIGHT, nor flesh. If your Imam is flesh,you are lucky today, you have the choice of dime and dozens of Imam in the Masjids of your country.

I know basic of basics but your basic is based on shaky ground.
In Ginans the theory of Noor came from Quran and in Quran no where is mentioned that Imam is God. Ismailis does not have Clear definition of Noor. Just see in Various Ginans , Noor is described in different ways. If Noor is light what kind of light is this?? Is Imam 100,000 watts bulb!(of course not).

Before Pir Shams, in Ismaili world where they ruled the worship places called masjids, and mullas and naib mullas were appointed which now are called mukhis and kamdias with little variation of duties ( though you will not like this comparison).

Your reference of article says,"The spiritual leader of the murids, the followers of living god OR CROWN PRINCE AGA KAHN 1V". Pay attention to the wordings 'the living god OR CROWN PRINCE.... '. Obviously CROWN PRINCE is related to King, THE KING OF UNIVERSE.

[Admin]

You may want to read the last article in Portuguese on Hazar Imam. "A god on Earth" You may not like it.