first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[Admin]

Imam does not break bones or die. Only the body can die. Imam is Noor. This has always been the case of misunderstanding between people thinking at a shariati level and those thinking at a batini level. One looks at the glass and the other looks at the content. For one a glass of milk is made of glass and for the other when he says glass of milk, he talks of the milk. These two shall never come together. One goes thirsty and when the glass breaks, he cries for the glass. The other drink the milk and says Shukhr Mowla!

[kmaherali]

Du'a is composed of Quranic surahs, ayats, phrases, and Hadiths. An Ismaili has to follow the translation given by ITREEB on orders of Imam. Ismailis do not follow the twisted meanings by any Tom, Dick, and Harry. Du'a is for Ismailis to recite, non Ismailis has nothing to do with it. What is the inner meaning of ALHAMDU LILLAHI RUBBIL AALAMEEN OR ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.?

We live in a pluralistic society in which all traditions are learning and understanding about themselves and others as per the Dar es Salaan Oct 6th Farman I quoted earlier. To know about another tradition, one of the ways is to try to understand their daily prayers which contain the main articles of faith as in our Du'a. Therefore our Du'a is also meant for those who are trying to understand our traditions hence it should not give offence.

In the Haji Bibi case, Dua was used as evidence of our beliefs. So it is an important external document as well.

Syrian Ismailis and others who approach Dua through Arabic will NEVER understand Ali ullah as Ali from Allah. At worst they may say Ali of Allah, but most likely they will know it as Ali is Allah because that is the actual meaning.

It is ridiculous to say Imam use the phrases like INSH'ALLAH, ALHUMDULILIAH OR CALLING NAME OF ALLAH AS PIR DURIN DIDAR OR MAKING FARMAN AND NOT AS IMAM. I don't know from where you got this type of philosophy. Please read KHUTUBAAT of Mowla Ali, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far Sadik. ( may be these are antiques for you).?

In our tradition the notion of Piratan or Gur Bhrama is very important. According to the will of MSMS, MHI is both the Pir and the Imam. In the capacity of the Pir he gives guidance as in:

GUR VACHANE GHAT SHODHAN KARIJE

Through the Farman of the Guru (Pir) seek within your heart.

JIRE BAI AAD GURU TE JE NAR NE DEKHADE
NAR VINA AAD GUR NA KAHEVAE JIRE BAAI

The Primal Guide (the Pir) is the one whop shows you the Nar (Imam). Without the Imam, no one can be the Primal Guide. The Imam appoints the Pir.

The function of wasi is Piratan.

To enter in house of Haqiqat one has to pass through door of Shariyat. What you think 7,9.12 years or even many senior are all intellectuals. They even can't recite Du'a correctly or understand meaning. What you expect from them. Many Ismaili intellectuals have different levels of inner meanings or hidden meanings which they dug up from no where. Which one we accept as real?

I have never suggested that we should not know the meaning. All I am suggesting is that there are layers of meaning in addition to the basic meaning which does not give offence.

Young children may not have the capacity of adults but gradually they should be encouraged to use their intellects to derive batini meanings.

But as adults we should not be at the shariati level always. In addition we must have the batini understanding as well. If we as adults are at the shariati level, how are we going to guide our children towards the haqiqati understanding.

[ismaili103]

Take a look at your Zahari Imam
He was born to human mother and father
He is a human and bigoted children
He married twice and divorced both of them
He gets sick, he breaks bones
According to reports he goes to sleep and wakes up at 6 AM
Like previous Imam he will die when his maker decide his time is up
This are not attribute of beyond infinite Allah

Be little careful. There is something like Kufr and Shirk. On the top of that you are on internet not in Jamatkhana or in secrete majlis.

You leave Ismailism only because of this thinking,

We don't believe that a person who born in geneva is Imam, but Noor which manifested in his body is Imam and who is indeed Allah.

Our Imam never dies and niether leave this earth for a single second as Imam Sultan Mohd Shah said.

But yes, there are many Ismailis who are stuck on shariat and for them there Imam dies, feeling sorry for them and for those who leave Ismailism after born in this Perfect Religion.

And BTW if this is Kufr and Shirk, then I'm love to do this all day.

[Admin]

"You believe in "Hazar" Imam or Quaim Imam and not in "Ghaib" Imam or Khalifat. You want Hazar Imam to guide you. You don't want dead Imam. There must be Hazar Imam to guide you according to time.

Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah
28 May 1955
London, UK
12:55pm

[shivaathervedi]

"You believe in "Hazar" Imam or Quaim Imam and not in "Ghaib" Imam or Khalifat. You want Hazar Imam to guide you. You don't want dead Imam. There must be Hazar Imam to guide you according to time.

Farman of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah
28 May 1955
London, UK
12:55pm

You are right, there must be Hazar Imam to guide according to time.
In one of Hidayat to Indian jamaits last year ( which is posted on this forum), Imam said," REMEMBER ALLAH THROUGH OUT THE DAY". Now remember Allah;
ALLAH ALLAH KARIYA KARO
JO KAINAAT KA MALIK HAI
NAAM USSI KA LIA KARO
ALLAH HEE ALLAH.

[shivaathervedi]

Ali is one of attribute of Allah

This is what happens when you do now know difference between name Ali and Allah's attribute al-Ali.

Meaning of Ali
Ali is a direct Quranic name for boys that means “high”, “exalted”, “superb”, “sublime”. The word Ali is used in many places in the Quran and it forms one of the names of Allah when it is prefixed with an al, as in al-Ali. It is a common name among Muslims out of love for Ali bin Abi Talib, cousin of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah upon him and his family and companions.

ASAK

Just little clarification;
In Quran the word ALI is used 8 times, out of which 6 times come as 'Al Ali' but on 2 occasions it is with out Al. In surah Shura it is " INNAHU ALIYUN HAKIM", and in Surah Zakhruf," l'ALIYUN HAKIM."
On other 3 occasions Quran has used the word 'ALIYYAN' and there Al is not used. These are in Surah Nisa once and 2 times in Surah Maryam.

[shivaathervedi]

Mazhar of essence; Essence of who?
Mazhar of Noor; Noor of who?.

It is becoming a bit childish. We have addressed this issue in all of your avtars since Mazhar. As I have mentioned many times, Nasir Khusraw has said in his Kalame Pir that the meaning of Hujjat is that Hujjat is equal to the object. Hence Mazhar of the Divine Essence is equal to the Divine Essence. Essentially from a functional point of view there is no difference.

In one of his printed Farmans the Imam said:

"You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for His spiritual children, His Noor has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction."

The Noor refers to Imam's Noor.

I quoted authentic Hadiths found in Ismaili literature and are not fabricated by me.
You quoted ginan and I quoted ginan who will decide which one is correct.
Did Nirinjin somersault from heaven and hang on a tree on planet earth and split his Noor in two branches! Please note in that particular part the words MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA ARE USED.

I did not indicate that the hadith was fabricated. There is no contradiction in the verses of the Ginans quoted. One Ginan elaborates the other. You mentioned that Niranjan created the Noor of Muhamad and Ali. The other Ginan mentioned that the Nirinjan is Ali.

Your comment about somersault is senseless. Ginans are allegorical, but perhaps man without intellect will not understand it!

EVERY PARTICLE IN UNIVERSE IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH. I am Mazhar of Allah, you are Mazhar of Allah, Admin is Mazhar of Allah, Imam is Mazhar of Allah,
BUT IMAM IS MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA, THE CHOSEN ONE , THE AUTHORIZED ONE, THE HUJJATULLAH. Let me quote from the the book written by the Guru of many Satpunthi Ismails named ISMAILI TARIQAH page #132, he wrote, I quote;
" THE IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND THE KHALIFATULLAH, THE PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM AND KHALIFATUUR RASULULLAH. THE PIR IS A LINK BETWEEN THE JAMAIT AND THE IMAM. THE HOLY IMAM IS THE ROPE OF ALLAH."
( These are not my fabricated words. Every one can check in the said book page # 132)
In your above post you have written," Nasir Khusru has said in Kalam e Pir that HUJJAT IS EQUAL TO THE OBJECT." So now, you consider Imam as an object, and object is creation of Allah. Once before you quoted same thing and I asked you to produce exact Persian wordings of Nasir but you did not comply. You are confused.
In old manuscripts of Ginans the Nirinjin is quoted as Hari, which MSMS with decree changed Hari to Ali and you are aware of that change.

[shivaathervedi]

What is the inner meaning of ALHAMDU LILLAHI RUBBIL AALAMEEN OR ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI.

It has big inner meaning,

In old we were prostrating infront of Imam and now we are prostrating infront of Allah, those who use there intellects know well that Imam change it because of the circumtances but meaning didn't changed. Imam or Allah both are same Ali sahi Allah.

NAMASKAAR;

Please read the complete contents of old Du'a and then compare it with new Du'a. As a rule of thumb, when words change the meaning also change. Tell me, is the elephant means rat?
Problem is, AGAR GULNAZ KAHTI HAI TOU THEEK KAHTI HAI! PHIR TOU CHUHA BHI HAATHI HAI! OOPS.

[shivaathervedi]

Niether I know the meaning of Allah nor the meaning of Bhagwan. I only know the meaning of Ali which is the the most high.

Sirat al mustaqeem ( True path/,Right Path )
Sat( True ) Panth ( Path )

JAI MATA JI KI;

Ali is on of the attribute name of Allah. In Quran it is used 8 times.

Mowla Ali Madad,

And my Pir tell us that " HE IS FORM LESS, NAME LESS AND ATTRIBUTE LESS"

And yes Allah is one of the name of KAABA KA BUTH ( JUST A PATHAR KI MURTI ).

Might be your Allah is too small that he bound in only 99 attributes, my creator Hazir Imam is beyond infnite Allah and he is attribute less.

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR;

As you wrote he is from LESS, then how he can be HIGH?
KA'BA KA BHUUTT, which you call al ilah is same dubbed by uncle Nuseri as ali+lah. AL ILAH = ALI+ LAH. JUST IMAGINE!

[ismaili103]

NAMASKAAR;

Please read the complete contents of old Du'a and then compare it with new Du'a. As a rule of thumb, when words change the meaning also change. Tell me, is the elephant means rat?
Problem is, AGAR GULNAZ KAHTI HAI TOU THEEK KAHTI HAI! PHIR TOU CHUHA BHI HAATHI HAI! OOPS

Mowla Ali Madad

Wow...for 800 years Ali was Allah and Imam of the time had no problem then suddenly in 20th century Imam change Ali sahi Allah to Ali u Allah and then Ali became human being.

Ma kehta hu Advocate Mazhar Shah Bandar ha, matlab ab se tum bandar ho, tum itne saalon tak insaan rahe wo ek pal ma khatam hogaya ha.

I'll repeat your sentence, Kis ko bewaquf bana rahe ho.

Tamam Sharyatio se guzarish ha k apni apni Aql ka istamal kare

[ismaili103]

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR;

As you wrote he is from LESS, then how he can be HIGH?
KA'BA KA BHUUTT, which you call al ilah is same dubbed by uncle Nuseri as ali+lah. AL ILAH = ALI+ LAH. JUST IMAGINE!

Mowla Ali Madad,

It seems like you are HIGH on weed, thats why even after living in USA you don't know the difference between HIGH and TALL.

ALI( The most high)+ LAH( Nothing )

JAB KUCH BHI NAHI KAHI BHI NAHI THA, WAHY THA WAHY THA, ALI THA ,ALI HAI OR ALI RAHEGA.
WOH JO TJH MA SAMAYA, WO JO MUJH MA SAMAYA, WAHY MOWLA ALI THA.

[zznoor]

ASAK

Just little clarification;
In Quran the word ALI is used 8 times, out of which 6 times come as 'Al Ali' but on 2 occasions it is with out Al. In surah Shura it is " INNAHU ALIYUN HAKIM", and in Surah Zakhruf," l'ALIYUN HAKIM."
On other 3 occasions Quran has used the word 'ALIYYAN' and there Al is not used. These are in Surah Nisa once and 2 times in Surah Maryam.

Can you show me translation of these Ayas where use of word Ali means Hz Ali ibn Talib.

[kmaherali]

EVERY PARTICLE IN UNIVERSE IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH. I am Mazhar of Allah, you are Mazhar of Allah, Admin is Mazhar of Allah, Imam is Mazhar of Allah,
BUT IMAM IS MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA, THE CHOSEN ONE , THE AUTHORIZED ONE, THE HUJJATULLAH. Let me quote from the the book written by the Guru of many Satpunthi Ismails named ISMAILI TARIQAH page #132, he wrote, I quote;
" THE IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND THE KHALIFATULLAH, THE PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM AND KHALIFATUUR RASULULLAH. THE PIR IS A LINK BETWEEN THE JAMAIT AND THE IMAM. THE HOLY IMAM IS THE ROPE OF ALLAH."
( These are not my fabricated words. Every one can check in the said book page # 132).

Yes according to MSMS in his Memoirs, every particle is a mazhar having a soul:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

It is a matter of degree. Humans are more advanced than other categories of creation. Men are potential God's being partial and incomplete. They become complete when they attain Fanna Fi Allah. The Imam guides his murids top being Fanna. Hence he is the purest and fully Fanna Fi Allah.

Therefore the Imam is the Mazhar -i- dhat- illahi, as opposed to other minor mazhars of Allah. We have been through this. There is no point of repeating over and over.

In your above post you have written," Nasir Khusru has said in Kalam e Pir that HUJJAT IS EQUAL TO THE OBJECT." So now, you consider Imam as an object, and object is creation of Allah. Once before you quoted same thing and I asked you to produce exact Persian wordings of Nasir but you did not comply. You are confused.
In old manuscripts of Ginans the Nirinjin is quoted as Hari, which MSMS with decree changed Hari to Ali and you are aware of that change.

What I mean by object is that if you say so and so is the mazhar of object A, then so and so is object A. Hence if Imam is Mazhar of God then Imam is God.

Nasir Khusraw explained that in his Kalame Pir translated by well respected scholar Ivanow who was praised by MSMS. I provided all the details earlier. No need to repeat over and over. I don't read Persian so I accessed the information through the translation.

[Admin]

In old manuscripts of Ginans the Nirinjin is quoted as Hari, which MSMS with decree changed Hari to Ali and you are aware of that change.

The Pakistan Ismailia Association was challenged in 1968 at the World Ismailia Association Conference by the then representative for Africa, President Shamshu Tejpar, over this statement and they apologies and accepted that they were mistaken and there was no such decree or any authentic Farman to change the wording.

This has been debated umpteen times and the matter should be put to rest. Please read previous posts, do a search before posting again and again the same old song like a broken record.

[shivaathervedi]

In old manuscripts of Ginans the Nirinjin is quoted as Hari, which MSMS with decree changed Hari to Ali and you are aware of that change.

The Pakistan Ismailia Association was challenged in 1968 at the World Ismailia Association Conference by the then representative for Africa, President Shamshu Tejpar, over this statement and they apologies and accepted that they were mistaken and there was no such decree or any authentic Farman to change the wording.

This has been debated umpteen times and the matter should be put to rest. Please read previous posts, do a search before posting again and again the same old song like a broken record.

You have collections of Talikas and letters, please post that particular letter (which you claim) written to President Shams Tejpur by Ismailia Association Pakistan.
One of the decisions made at 1969 Ginan conference was to replace Hindu
(mythology) names to Muslim names and that was Imam's Hidayat.
After 70's the ginan books printed have name Ali in place of Hari, and Swami to Shah and so on.

[shivaathervedi]

ASAK

Just little clarification;
In Quran the word ALI is used 8 times, out of which 6 times come as 'Al Ali' but on 2 occasions it is with out Al. In surah Shura it is " INNAHU ALIYUN HAKIM", and in Surah Zakhruf," l'ALIYUN HAKIM."
On other 3 occasions Quran has used the word 'ALIYYAN' and there Al is not used. These are in Surah Nisa once and 2 times in Surah Maryam.

Can you show me translation of these Ayas where use of word Ali means Hz Ali ibn Talib.

ASAK

You misunderstood. I just mentioned the attribute name of ALLAH and no where wrote about Hazrat Ali ibn Talib in that post.

[shivaathervedi]

NAMASKAAR;

Please read the complete contents of old Du'a and then compare it with new Du'a. As a rule of thumb, when words change the meaning also change. Tell me, is the elephant means rat?
Problem is, AGAR GULNAZ KAHTI HAI TOU THEEK KAHTI HAI! PHIR TOU CHUHA BHI HAATHI HAI! OOPS

Mowla Ali Madad

Wow...for 800 years Ali was Allah and Imam of the time had no problem then suddenly in 20th century Imam change Ali sahi Allah to Ali u Allah and then Ali became human being.

Ma kehta hu Advocate Mazhar Shah Bandar ha, matlab ab se tum bandar ho, tum itne saalon tak insaan rahe wo ek pal ma khatam hogaya ha.

I'll repeat your sentence, Kis ko bewaquf bana rahe ho.

Tamam Sharyatio se guzarish ha k apni apni Aql ka istamal kare

Please ask Imam why he changed a part of Kalima. Qasam ley lo jo mai(n) ney kaha ho. I obey and recite what is written in Du'a so every true Ismaili has to obey.
Karim Jivani mai(n) tera AAINA hu(n). Zahir hai mirror mey bundar ko bundar hi nazar aaiga. Other proof, according to dus avtar theory which you have posted, in the beginning were bacteria and Imam was in bactia ruup, then there were fishes and Imam was fish then there were animals and Imam was----. Then from animal kindom bundar converted to insaan. If your theory is right then you are nasalan bundar also.
AJI BEWAQUF KO BEWAQUF HI KAHE(N) GEY. Oops.

[shivaathervedi]

RAM RAM NAMASKAAR;

As you wrote he is from LESS, then how he can be HIGH?
KA'BA KA BHUUTT, which you call al ilah is same dubbed by uncle Nuseri as ali+lah. AL ILAH = ALI+ LAH. JUST IMAGINE!

Mowla Ali Madad,

It seems like you are HIGH on weed, thats why even after living in USA you don't know the difference between HIGH and TALL.

ALI( The most high)+ LAH( Nothing )

JAB KUCH BHI NAHI KAHI BHI NAHI THA, WAHY THA WAHY THA, ALI THA ,ALI HAI OR ALI RAHEGA.
WOH JO TJH MA SAMAYA, WO JO MUJH MA SAMAYA, WAHY MOWLA ALI THA.

Jai Kirshan Maharaj ki;

BOLU(N) BOLU(N) KEY NA BOLU(N)....
You are following the line on uncla Nuseri. You wrote Ali the most high then you added + Lah. Therfore the meaning will be Ali the most high is nothing.
Now tell me who is on weeds.
Shaairi me wazan paida karo. Tery shair ki upper wali line Tando Bago ja rahi hai or nechey wali line Tando Allahyar.
Sumjh nahi aati Gulnaz ko ghussa kiuo(n) aata hai.

[shivaathervedi]

EVERY PARTICLE IN UNIVERSE IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH. I am Mazhar of Allah, you are Mazhar of Allah, Admin is Mazhar of Allah, Imam is Mazhar of Allah,
BUT IMAM IS MUSTAFA AND MURTAZA, THE CHOSEN ONE , THE AUTHORIZED ONE, THE HUJJATULLAH. Let me quote from the the book written by the Guru of many Satpunthi Ismails named ISMAILI TARIQAH page #132, he wrote, I quote;
" THE IMAM IS HUJJATULLAH AND THE KHALIFATULLAH, THE PIR IS HUJJATUL IMAM AND KHALIFATUUR RASULULLAH. THE PIR IS A LINK BETWEEN THE JAMAIT AND THE IMAM. THE HOLY IMAM IS THE ROPE OF ALLAH."
( These are not my fabricated words. Every one can check in the said book page # 132).

Yes according to MSMS in his Memoirs, every particle is a mazhar having a soul:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

It is a matter of degree. Humans are more advanced than other categories of creation. Men are potential God's being partial and incomplete. They become complete when they attain Fanna Fi Allah. The Imam guides his murids top being Fanna. Hence he is the purest and fully Fanna Fi Allah.

Therefore the Imam is the Mazhar -i- dhat- illahi, as opposed to other minor mazhars of Allah. We have been through this. There is no point of repeating over and over.

In your above post you have written," Nasir Khusru has said in Kalam e Pir that HUJJAT IS EQUAL TO THE OBJECT." So now, you consider Imam as an object, and object is creation of Allah. Once before you quoted same thing and I asked you to produce exact Persian wordings of Nasir but you did not comply. You are confused.
In old manuscripts of Ginans the Nirinjin is quoted as Hari, which MSMS with decree changed Hari to Ali and you are aware of that change.

What I mean by object is that if you say so and so is the mazhar of object A, then so and so is object A. Hence if Imam is Mazhar of God then Imam is God.

Nasir Khusraw explained that in his Kalame Pir translated by well respected scholar Ivanow who was praised by MSMS. I provided all the details earlier. No need to repeat over and over. I don't read Persian so I accessed the information through the translation.

So you are following my line that every particle is Mazhar of Allah and Imam is Mazhar i Dhat i Illahi means MAZHAR OF ALLAH and other Mazhars are minor in comparison to Imam.
You did not address the statement of Late Alwaiz in his book ISMAILI TARIQAH. Was he right or wrong in his statement? Still mostly Satpunthi Ismailis consider him Guru and listen to his waizes and follow his philosophy.

[kmaherali]

So you are following my line that every particle is Mazhar of Allah and Imam is Mazhar i Dhat i Illahi means MAZHAR OF ALLAH and other Mazhars are minor in comparison to Imam..

I would call other mazhars as mazhars of partial Allah and the Imam as the Mazhar of complete Allah.

You did not address the statement of Late Alwaiz in his book ISMAILI TARIQAH. Was he right or wrong in his statement? Still mostly Satpunthi Ismailis consider him Guru and listen to his waizes and follow his philosophy.

I agree with him that the Pir is the link between the Jamat and the Imam (Nirinjan). If that is the case then the Rope of Allah is the Pir and not the Imam in my opinion.

The definition of Khalifa:

KHALIFAH is an Arabic word literally meaning "one who replaces someone else.

As I said earlier Hujjat/Mazhar of Allah is Allah.

Therefore the Imam is Hujjatullah and he also the Khalifatullah since he replaces Allah (is Allah).

In my opinion the Pir is not the Hujjatul Imam because that would make him equal to the Imam, but he is the Khaliphatur Rasulullah because he replaces the Prophet.

[shivaathervedi]

So you are following my line that every particle is Mazhar of Allah and Imam is Mazhar i Dhat i Illahi means MAZHAR OF ALLAH and other Mazhars are minor in comparison to Imam..

I would call other mazhars as mazhars of partial Allah and the Imam as the Mazhar of complete Allah.

You did not address the statement of Late Alwaiz in his book ISMAILI TARIQAH. Was he right or wrong in his statement? Still mostly Satpunthi Ismailis consider him Guru and listen to his waizes and follow his philosophy.

I agree with him that the Pir is the link between the Jamat and the Imam (Nirinjan). If that is the case then the Rope of Allah is the Pir and not the Imam in my opinion.

The definition of Khalifa:

KHALIFAH is an Arabic word literally meaning "one who replaces someone else.

As I said earlier Hujjat/Mazhar of Allah is Allah.

Therefore the Imam is Hujjatullah and he also the Khalifatullah since he replaces Allah (is Allah).

In my opinion the Pir is not the Hujjatul Imam because that would make him equal to the Imam, but he is the Khaliphatur Rasulullah because he replaces the Prophet.

You wrote," I would call other Mazhars as Mazhars of PARTIAL ALLAH." Will you define PARTIAL ALLAH? It is first time on this forum I am reading that there exists a partial Allah!! Karim what has happened to your intelligence!

As pir is a link between jamait and Imam same way Imam is LINK between followers and Allah, that's why Imam Ja'far Sadiq and Shah Karim has used the words 'through us' or through 'Noor of Imam'.

In Ismaili literature Imam is considered ROPE OF ALLAH.

If pir is not Hujjatul Imam in your opinion means late Alwaiz was wrong in his philosophy.

The meaning of KHALIFATULLAH is VICEREGENT OF ALLAH.

[kmaherali]

[ You wrote," I would call other Mazhars as Mazhars of PARTIAL ALLAH." Will you define PARTIAL ALLAH? It is first time on this forum I am reading that there exists a partial Allah!! Karim what has happened to your intelligence!.

Partial if you know how to google means incomplete or potential Allah. By becoming Fanna fi Allah one attains completion. We have notions of Aql -e-Juzz (partial intellect) as opposed to Aql-e-Kull (perfect intellect).

As pir is a link between jamait and Imam same way Imam is LINK between followers and Allah, that's why Imam Ja'far Sadiq and Shah Karim has used the words 'through us' or through 'Noor of Imam'..

In Satpanth Tradition the Imam is at all times both the Pir and the Shah (Imam). If he hasn't appointed someone else for the role of Piratan, then he assumes that role himself in which case he is the rope of Allah. This is the sitaution at present. Through the Pir (Noor) one attains the Imam (Nirinjan).

If pir is not Hujjatul Imam in your opinion means late Alwaiz was wrong in his philosophy..

He was a missionary, that does not make him infallible. Only the Pirs are infallible. I have my views, he had his.

The meaning of KHALIFATULLAH is VICEREGENT OF ALLAH.

The meaning of viceregent:

A person exercising delegated power on behalf of a sovereign or ruler.

Which is not different than a person repalcing someone else.

[kmaherali]

After 70's the ginan books printed have name Ali in place of Hari, and Swami to Shah and so on.

The books published by the ITREB of Canada well after the 70's have still maintained the tradition. They have not changed hari to Ali.

[ismaili103]

[/quote]Jai Kirshan Maharaj ki;

BOLU(N) BOLU(N) KEY NA BOLU(N)....
You are following the line on uncla Nuseri. You wrote Ali the most high then you added + Lah. Therfore the meaning will be Ali the most high is nothing.
Now tell me who is on weeds.
Shaairi me wazan paida karo. Tery shair ki upper wali line Tando Bago ja rahi hai or nechey wali line Tando Allahyar.
Sumjh nahi aati Gulnaz ko ghussa kiuo(n) aata hai.[/quote][/quote]

Mowla Ali Madad,

When there was nothing but Ali was there, Ali is here and when there will be nothing Ali will be there.

[Admin]

The Topic of this thread is Constitution, there are other threads to discuss these matter. We have 40 pages of discussions and dispute and most of it is not on Constitution.

[shivaathervedi]

After 70's the ginan books printed have name Ali in place of Hari, and Swami to Shah and so on.

The books published by the ITREB of Canada well after the 70's have still maintained the tradition. They have not changed hari to Ali.

One Imam, one Tariqa, one hidayat about ginans; ITREBS went in different direction, NEGLECTING HIDAYAT and still this is called UNITY.

[shivaathervedi]

[ You wrote," I would call other Mazhars as Mazhars of PARTIAL ALLAH." Will you define PARTIAL ALLAH? It is first time on this forum I am reading that there exists a partial Allah!! Karim what has happened to your intelligence!.

Partial if you know how to google means incomplete or potential Allah. By becoming Fanna fi Allah one attains completion. We have notions of Aql -e-Juzz (partial intellect) as opposed to Aql-e-Kull (perfect intellect).

As pir is a link between jamait and Imam same way Imam is LINK between followers and Allah, that's why Imam Ja'far Sadiq and Shah Karim has used the words 'through us' or through 'Noor of Imam'..

In Satpanth Tradition the Imam is at all times both the Pir and the Shah (Imam). If he hasn't appointed someone else for the role of Piratan, then he assumes that role himself in which case he is the rope of Allah. This is the sitaution at present. Through the Pir (Noor) one attains the Imam (Nirinjan).

If pir is not Hujjatul Imam in your opinion means late Alwaiz was wrong in his philosophy..

He was a missionary, that does not make him infallible. Only the Pirs are infallible. I have my views, he had his.

The meaning of KHALIFATULLAH is VICEREGENT OF ALLAH.

The meaning of viceregent:

A person exercising delegated power on behalf of a sovereign or ruler.

Which is not different than a person repalcing someone else.

Partial Gods in making, in pipe line are potential Gods. Good we are learning new terminologies and further confusing readers and youth. Even after fana that potential God who is Aql e Juz can't be Aql e Kul.

You wrote in Satpunthi tradition the Imam is at all time pir and Imam, then why we keep counting numbers of pirs. At present Imam is Shah and Pir then where is that concept of link or rope.

All human beings are fallible.Why I quoted him because till today majority of Satpunthi Ismailis follow his philosophy, listen to his waizes, give references from his waizes and books, and some times fight if some one criticizes him.

Your interpretation of viceregent is not suitable. You wrote," Which is not different than a person replacing some one else." The meaning of viceregent is, " a person exercising power or authority on behalf of a sovereign or ruler", therefore there is a difference between authorized and Higher Authority ( who authorized some one).

[kmaherali]

Partial Gods in making, in pipe line are potential Gods. Good we are learning new terminologies and further confusing readers and youth. Even after fana that potential God who is Aql e Juz can't be Aql e Kul.

What is so confusing? Isn't the purpose of life to become Fanna Fi Allah. What happens when one becomes Fanna?

Consider the Farmans:

"Tame amara jeava thao"

Become like us.

"Mowla Aly noe mojijo ae hato ke potani jagyae pochade"

The miracle of Hazarat Ali was to enable you to reach his destination.

The following verse of seeharfee also alludes to this.

keett bhamareekaa tame dekho khelaa
esaa paayaa gur su(n) chelaa.....................................10

Meaning - Look at the relationship between a worm (larva) and a bee. When a worm(larva) endures the leaking of a bee, it is transformed into the nature of the bee. Similarly when a disciple rigorously follows the guide, he is transformed into the nature of the Guide, i.e. becomes Divine himself

[kmaherali]

You wrote in Satpunthi tradition the Imam is at all time pir and Imam, then why we keep counting numbers of pirs. At present Imam is Shah and Pir then where is that concept of link or rope.

I think the reason we count the number of Pirs is that Piratan is an important concept in our tradition. It is they who interpret the faith and provide guidance. In significant part of our history, there have been functioning Pirs other than the Imam and hence it is of interest to know who they were and their activities and teachings through Ginans.

Pirs are not ordinary humans, they are divine like the Imams. MSMS remarked that Pir Sadardeen will always be alive as long as his Ginans are recited.

[shivaathervedi]

Today on the front page of this forum I saw a photo dubbed as ' photo souvenir 1935 Aga Khan 111 Golden Jubilee memorabilia' showing images of MSMS and on his right image of Vishnu/Krishan and on left image if Jesus Christ. Are these images shown are equal? The message may be Satpunthi Ismailism is amalgam of Hinduism and Christianiti and Imam is equal to Christ!