Ya Ali Madad,
I had a question regarding the Quran and the validity of some parts of it. I understand that our interpretation of the Quran comes straight from Mowlana Hazir Imam thru his farmans, but when a person comes up to you and says "The Quran says its okay to beat wives under the Surah, The Women. How do you believe in a religion that condones such behavior?" How do you answer? My copy of the Quran says this exactly, and I was appaled to find it. It raised up many questions. From my knowledge, the Quran is the ultimate TIMELESS truth according to Muslims the world over. Do we hold with the same belief? Also, do we believe that women are inferior to men because of their creation as mentioned in the Quran? If men and women are equal, how come we sit separated in Jamat Khana, with men on the RIGHT and women on the left? If it's simply a part of tradition and not mandatory, how come it isn't changed? And, how come the women cannot follow the men during a funeral to bury their loved ones? It doesn't seem right to me.
Disagreeing With Parts of the Quran
YAM,
First of all it must be realized that Quran is not the primary source of guidance for Ismailis. Living in a pluralistic environment we should be able to say this openly to anybody. For us the first source is the Farmans of the MHI. Thereafter it is the Ginans. ISMS has told us that Ginans are the tafsir (interpretation) of the Quran par excellence. If we cannot see any of the issues that you have raised in the Farmans or the Ginans you can assume that they do not apply to us. The Farmans of ISMS on the status of women are quite clear. The place where I was raised men sat on the left and women on the right. I do not think it matters. I think women sitting with men in congregation can be distractful for both sexes. On the issue of funeral rites, there has been some discussion under Rites and Ceremonies -> Funeral Tradition and Ceremonies.
First of all it must be realized that Quran is not the primary source of guidance for Ismailis. Living in a pluralistic environment we should be able to say this openly to anybody. For us the first source is the Farmans of the MHI. Thereafter it is the Ginans. ISMS has told us that Ginans are the tafsir (interpretation) of the Quran par excellence. If we cannot see any of the issues that you have raised in the Farmans or the Ginans you can assume that they do not apply to us. The Farmans of ISMS on the status of women are quite clear. The place where I was raised men sat on the left and women on the right. I do not think it matters. I think women sitting with men in congregation can be distractful for both sexes. On the issue of funeral rites, there has been some discussion under Rites and Ceremonies -> Funeral Tradition and Ceremonies.
Last edited by kmaherali on Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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star_munir
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Physical v/s non physical
Lets see what meaning we can derive from Imam SMS Farmans.
Imam SMS has said that this world is like woman of ill repute, you should kick her out as soon as possible.
In another place he has mentioned that this world is a woman of ill repute, she has not belonged to anyone nor will she belong to anyone.
If the Quran is talking about this woman, it makes perfect sense.
If we think it is about physical women then Imams farmans would contradict this and that is highly improbable.
Shams
Imam SMS has said that this world is like woman of ill repute, you should kick her out as soon as possible.
In another place he has mentioned that this world is a woman of ill repute, she has not belonged to anyone nor will she belong to anyone.
If the Quran is talking about this woman, it makes perfect sense.
If we think it is about physical women then Imams farmans would contradict this and that is highly improbable.
Shams
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faisall667
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Here is a verse of the Ginan: E SABHAAGAA HAR PUJ NIT NEERVAANN PA(N)JETAN
e sabhaagaa aape shaah mulaa aape shaah kaazee
aape ved kuraan sabhaagaa.............................8
O fortunate one, the Lord himself is the scholar, He himself is the judge, He himself is the ved (holy scriptures) and the Qur'aan, fortunate one.
Faisal
e sabhaagaa aape shaah mulaa aape shaah kaazee
aape ved kuraan sabhaagaa.............................8
O fortunate one, the Lord himself is the scholar, He himself is the judge, He himself is the ved (holy scriptures) and the Qur'aan, fortunate one.
Faisal
Re: Physical v/s non physical
Here's what the Pir has said about women/wives..shamsu wrote:Lets see what meaning we can derive from Imam SMS Farmans.
Imam SMS has said that this world is like woman of ill repute, you should kick her out as soon as possible.
In another place he has mentioned that this world is a woman of ill repute, she has not belonged to anyone nor will she belong to anyone.
If the Quran is talking about this woman, it makes perfect sense.
If we think it is about physical women then Imams farmans would contradict this and that is highly improbable.
Shams
Keraja Mare Ghare che ARDHANGANI..tene puchi pachi vaat karis..sate jitya ke panche bandava...
O King, At my home is my other half..after talking to her i will make a decision.....
If the Pir is talking about the equality of Women in the times of the Pandavas..what does that tell us about women in ismailism
Re: Disagreeing With Parts of the Quran
NabilaDaredia wrote:Ya Ali Madad,
I had a question "The Quran says its okay to beat wives under the Surah, The Women. How do you believe in a religion that condones such behavior?" How do you answer? My copy of the Quran says this exactly, and I was appaled to find it.
The literal interpretation of Quran has confounded many modern Muslims. Islamic world at present , as a result of this, passing through a critical stage.
Nice Question
First of all , try to quote the verse here.
Try to read full surah and don't pick a single verse to contradict.
In Surah Nisa, Allah says about what to do and what not to do with your wives.
Now your question that Allah in quran says to beat your wives .. If your wife is a badkar ..
Allah says Pehlay un ko zabani samjhao .. agar phir bhi wo na manay to un k saath sona tarq kardo agar phir bhi wo baaz na aai phir un k sath phir the last and third option is to do what have written then Allah says that agar wo badkari karna chor dain to un k sath husn sulook karo or phir un ko eeza denay ka bahana nahi dhondo ..
Now tell me any other option or any other way which is better than Quran ..
Try to read and understand quran .. If u don't want to then atleast stop contradicting with it.
First of all , try to quote the verse here.
Try to read full surah and don't pick a single verse to contradict.
In Surah Nisa, Allah says about what to do and what not to do with your wives.
Now your question that Allah in quran says to beat your wives .. If your wife is a badkar ..
Allah says Pehlay un ko zabani samjhao .. agar phir bhi wo na manay to un k saath sona tarq kardo agar phir bhi wo baaz na aai phir un k sath phir the last and third option is to do what have written then Allah says that agar wo badkari karna chor dain to un k sath husn sulook karo or phir un ko eeza denay ka bahana nahi dhondo ..
Now tell me any other option or any other way which is better than Quran ..
Try to read and understand quran .. If u don't want to then atleast stop contradicting with it.
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Ya Ali Madad,
can any one explain the following verse of Quran:
5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
can any one explain the following verse of Quran:
5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
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star_munir
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So which type of badwork as from some where I read the one who is disobedient to her husband. Is it so or not?
Also do you think its wrong to become friend of jew and christian as per Quranic Verse .
But this what I read in letters to Editors in Dawn. Its a Pakistani newspaper. Here is link of website
http://www.dawn.com/2005/03/27/letted.htm
Holy Quran refers to Christians as "men devoted to learning" who are "not arrogant" and are "near to Muslims in love". The topic of letter is Clash of civilizations
Also do you think its wrong to become friend of jew and christian as per Quranic Verse .
But this what I read in letters to Editors in Dawn. Its a Pakistani newspaper. Here is link of website
http://www.dawn.com/2005/03/27/letted.htm
Holy Quran refers to Christians as "men devoted to learning" who are "not arrogant" and are "near to Muslims in love". The topic of letter is Clash of civilizations
Disobedient .. not each and every case .. if His Demands are Jaiz then she must be obedient .. Isn't der a Farman in which HI says that Agar tumhara shohar Jk janay se tumhay rokay to tum na jao ?
Well i don't know much about friendship but expecting something from them is stupidity .. Current situation is a proof .. what US and Israel are doing ..
[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
Allah says that Worst enemies of believers are jews and Idol Worshippers .. Christians will be close to you as they are now these days .. But we all know that they are not our friends. Cconsider US as christian , israel as jew and Palestine as muslim .. Now read the verse .. you will understand ..
Well i don't know much about friendship but expecting something from them is stupidity .. Current situation is a proof .. what US and Israel are doing ..
[5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
Allah says that Worst enemies of believers are jews and Idol Worshippers .. Christians will be close to you as they are now these days .. But we all know that they are not our friends. Cconsider US as christian , israel as jew and Palestine as muslim .. Now read the verse .. you will understand ..
I think the situations in the Mid East are really political expressions and have nothing to do with the respective faiths, although the various leaders have used religion to seek legitimacy and support to their causes.Sooper wrote: [5:82] You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
Allah says that Worst enemies of believers are jews and Idol Worshippers .. Christians will be close to you as they are now these days .. But we all know that they are not our friends. Cconsider US as christian , israel as jew and Palestine as muslim .. Now read the verse .. you will understand ..
I think that we should really be seeking commonalities between faiths such as shared ethics rather than discussing division and antagonism because that is not part of any faith be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc.
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star_munir
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As it is verse of Quran 5:54 "O ye who believe. Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
And than you quoted following vesrse in which it is And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
You wrote in your last post that
"Christians will be close to you as they are now these days .. But we all know that they are not our friends"
"Well i don't know much about friendship but expecting something from them is stupidity"
But it is also reffered to christians as "near to muslims in love" So I think you got confused like me while reading these verses.
Now what do I think is not all Chrisitans are bad, not all non muslims are bad. There are good and bad people in all religion. If some one is muslim that it not means that all his actions are in accordance with Islam.
So I think may the verse in which it is not to become friend of jews and christians, in this verse Allah said not to make friendship with Jews and Christains of that time who were enemies of Islam. Therefore God ordered to stay away from them. Like history reveal there were hypocrites who were muslims from outside and Kafirs from inside and used to give secrets of muslims to Kafir and used to say we are just friend of Jews and christians so may be this can be the situation I don't know but what do I think is to fully understand the Quranic Verses it is necessary to also read the historical background that under which conditions and cicumustances particular verse was revealed and what can be its interpretation. You will find lot of tafseers of Quran each with major differences from other as all have interpreted Quran according to their knowledge and understanding of Quran.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah wrote,"....Infact, in the interest of the universal unification of mankind the Quran says :"Come, let us unite to what is common to us all," which obviously encourages Muslims to assimilate ideas and even customs from others."
[Ref:Reply of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah to TIMES,London when it attempted to malign Islam]
And than you quoted following vesrse in which it is And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.
You wrote in your last post that
"Christians will be close to you as they are now these days .. But we all know that they are not our friends"
"Well i don't know much about friendship but expecting something from them is stupidity"
But it is also reffered to christians as "near to muslims in love" So I think you got confused like me while reading these verses.
Now what do I think is not all Chrisitans are bad, not all non muslims are bad. There are good and bad people in all religion. If some one is muslim that it not means that all his actions are in accordance with Islam.
So I think may the verse in which it is not to become friend of jews and christians, in this verse Allah said not to make friendship with Jews and Christains of that time who were enemies of Islam. Therefore God ordered to stay away from them. Like history reveal there were hypocrites who were muslims from outside and Kafirs from inside and used to give secrets of muslims to Kafir and used to say we are just friend of Jews and christians so may be this can be the situation I don't know but what do I think is to fully understand the Quranic Verses it is necessary to also read the historical background that under which conditions and cicumustances particular verse was revealed and what can be its interpretation. You will find lot of tafseers of Quran each with major differences from other as all have interpreted Quran according to their knowledge and understanding of Quran.
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah wrote,"....Infact, in the interest of the universal unification of mankind the Quran says :"Come, let us unite to what is common to us all," which obviously encourages Muslims to assimilate ideas and even customs from others."
[Ref:Reply of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah to TIMES,London when it attempted to malign Islam]