Hindu Mythology and Indian Terminology / Civilisations

[shivaathervedi]

Why mention of periodical manifestation of Vishnu? Was that not better to introduce Noor e Ali in place of Vishnu which is for ever.

There is no difference whatever semantics. Manitou of the Red Indian or Yahve of the Jews is not any different than Noor e Ali. Our Imam said you should not allow them to think that your God is different from their God.

It is not the question of semantics or language, but the word used in the post is periodical, which means some times he is present and then disappear and after some time again reappear. He has to be present all the times and not just when demons are around.

[shivaathervedi]

Confusion created because you used the words," Prophet was ONLY FOR 23 YEARS". Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are Rahmat for Aalameen according to Hadith ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID..

I have no problem about the Noor pf Muhmmad and Ali being one. The problem was when you said the QALAM was Muhammad and I said that cannot be so because Prophethood is not considered as an eternal institution, whereas Imamat/Piratan is. Hence Piratan is more appropriate as the Pen instead of Muhammad unless by Muhammad you mean Piratan.

No doubt creation is continuous and perpetual, but each and every event was recorded in Tablet in primordial time.

Mowla Ali in one of his sermon said, " ANA LOWHIM MAHFUZ" I am the GUARDED TABLET.

Interesting, it echoes Mowlana Rumi:

He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality).(Mathnavi 2:166 onwards)

Hence we may consider the Pen and the Tablet to be one. Of course the Sunnis and the 12ver Shias consider the Umm al-Kitab as the Loh Mafuz:

" Allah effaces and confirms what He wishes. With/By Him is the mother of the book" (Surat al Raad: 13: 39). For more on this go to the link below.

http://sufiyya.blogspot.ca/2010/02/umm- ... 13-39.html

You did not comment on the couplets of Syed Ahmad Shah.
If you have mentioned the couplet of Romi in Persian would have been easier to elaborate. In parenthesis you have put the word 'pir' can be some one else.
Who is mother of THE BOOK?

[shivaathervedi]

Hindu Holidays & Festivals


It has been said that Hindus have a holiday for every day of the year, but even that may be an understatement! Exactly how many Hindu festivals are celebrated is not known.

As in most ancient religions, many of the Hindu holidays are based on the cycle of nature. They mark the change of seasons, celebrate the harvest, and encourage fertility of the land. Others are dedicated to a particular deity, such as Shiva or Ganesh.

Still other popular holidays commemorate events in the lives of Rama or Krishna. In addition to the major Hindu festivals that are celebrated throughout India, many regional festivals are also held in honor of various deities.

In general, Hindu festivals "are intended to purify, avert malicious influences, renew society, bridge over critical moments, and stimulate or resuscitate the vital powers of nature." They include a wide variety of rituals, including worship, prayer, processions, magical acts, music, dancing eating, drinking, and feeding the poor.

Major festivals likely to be observed by most Hindus are:

Holi

Holi (also called Holaka or Phagwa) is an annual festival celebrated on the day after the full moon in the Hindu month of Phalguna (early March). It celebrates spring, commemorates various events in Hindu mythology and is time of disregarding social norms and indulging in general merrymaking. Holi is probably the least religious of Hindu holidays.

Diwali

Diwali, from the Sanskrit word Dipavali, meaning "row of lights" is a Hindu festival of lights lasting five days. For many Hindus, Diwali is also New Year's Eve. Diwali is held on the final day of the Vikram calendar, a type of Hindu calendar followed by North Indians.

Mahashivaratri (Shiva Ratri)

Mahashivaratri (also called Shiva Ratri) is the Great Festival of Shiva. It is held on the 14th day of the dark half of the lunar month of Phalguna. Mahashivaratri is especially important to Saivites (devotees of Shiva), but it is celebrated by most Hindus. Other sacred days:


Rama Navami - birthday of Lord Rama (April)

Krishna Jayanti - birthday of Lord Krishna (July-August)

Raksabandhana - renewing bonds between brothers and sisters (July-August)

Kumbh Mela - pilgrimage every 12 years to four cities in India (July-August)

Ganesha-Chaturthi (Ganesha Utsava) - festival of Ganesh (August-September)

Dassera - victory of Rama over demon king Ravana (September-October)

Navaratri - festival of Shakti (in Bengal) or Rama's victory over Ravana (South India) (September-October)

[kmaherali]

It is not the question of semantics or language, but the word used in the post is periodical, which means some times he is present and then disappear and after some time again reappear. He has to be present all the times and not just when demons are around.

That periodic notion is the Hindu concept. In Ismailism it acquires a different meaning. Vishnu is always present and can be attained just like the Noor.

In Ginan: Kartaa juge dwaar http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3793 it is stated:

ejee bhanne peer sadardeen saaheb tere sharanne,
ame veeshnu(n) naaraayann bhale paayaajee;

Peer Sadardeen teaches(the manner of worship) Lord I am in your refuge and protection. I have attained Lord Vishnu in a pleasant manner.

[kmaherali]

Brahma you have equated as Pir in one of your posts, so is Pir manifestation of Mahesh and destroyer of Kalinga according to you.

The Imam himself is the Maheshwar.

In the Ginan: Kartaa Juge Duaar Utar Deese Huaddaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22923

ejee ghatt pujo ne ghatt teerath naa-o,
enne ghatte aal sarave aayaajee;
enne ghatte bheermaa ne enne ghatte vishnu(n)
enne ghatte dev mahesar bhale paayaajee...aayaa maulaanaa....4

Worship the heart and perform the bathing of the confluence of the three rivers in the heart. In this heart the entire progeny has come. In this heart is the Lord the Creator, in this heart is Lord Vishnu(the Sustainer) and in this heart the Divine Maheshvar(destroyer of evil) is attained in a pleasant manner.

The above verse indicates that the Progeny (Aal) of the Imams is all encompassing. It is Bhrama, it is Vishnu and it is Maheshwar. We are however familiar with bhrama being Piratan because in our history the Imams have designated the role of Piratan to other individuals. This has not been the case with the role of Maheshwar. That role has been retained by the Imam himself.

[kmaherali]

OHONG NIRINJIN EEK VARKHASHJ KEETA
UN KU(N) DHALI DOEY JO DITTA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOORE ALI MURTAZA (SYED AHMAD SHAH)

Thanks for quoting them. These are verses from Seeharfi - 30 Letters http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23066

oha(n)g neeree(n)jan ek vrakshaja keetaa
unaku(n) ddaallee doejo deetaa....................................6

The indescribable word (oha(n)g) created one tree and two branches appeared(manifested).

ek nur mohammad mustafaa
ane dujaa nur alee murtazaa.......................................7

The first one is the light of Muhammed the chosen and the second is the light of Aly the favoured.

The Niranjan (Unknowable and Undescrbable) is the tree. The two branches are the Noor.

The Niranjan is the Imam in our tradition as per Ginan Verse:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed. The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

The Imam is the ShahPir. He is both the Shah and the Pir. The Imam represents the Niranjan and also the Noor. The Prophet is the Noor (Pir, Satgur).

Hence the Aly is the tree and one branch, the Muhammad is the other branch.

[Admin]

The Imam is the ShahPir. He is both the Shah and the Pir. The Imam represents the Niranjan and also the Noor. The Prophet is the Noor (Pir, Satgur).

Hence the Aly is the tree and one branch, the Muhammad is the other branch.

Same can be said of the verses "Hassan Hussein do Nur Pichano usme umat sarire..." [My memory fails me, I can't identify which ginan, I think from Syed Imam Shah)

[kmaherali]

If you have mentioned the couplet of Romi in Persian would have been easier to elaborate. In parenthesis you have put the word 'pir' can be some one else.
Who is mother of THE BOOK?

I don't know Persian so I do not have access to the Persian version but I did post the reference from the Mathnavi and hence you can access the appropriate verses. The Pir was mentioned in parenthesis because it was an extension of what was quoted in the preceding verses and it was referring to what had been posted in the prior verses:

To you it is a wall, to them it is a door; to you a stone, to (those) venerated ones a pearl.

What you see plainly in the mirror—the Pir sees more than that in the brick.
The Pirs are they whose spirits, before this world existed, were in the Sea of (Divine) bounty.

Before (the creation of) this body they passed (many) lifetimes; before the sowing they took up (harvested) the wheat. 170 They have received the spirit before (the creation of) the form; they have bored the pearls before (the creation of) the sea.


(Whilst) consultation was going on as to bringing mankind into existence, their spirits were in the Sea of (Divine) Omnipotence up to the throat.

When the angels were opposing that (creation of man), they (the Pirs) were secretly clapping their hands (in derision) at the angels.

He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality).(Mathnavi 2:166 onwards)

The mother of the book is the LOW MAHFUZ. According to Sunnis it is Allah himself and according to our prior discussions in this thread it is the Noor of Imamat/Piratan.

[kmaherali]

Same can be said of the verses "Hassan Hussein do Nur Pichano usme umat sarire..." [My memory fails me, I can't identify which ginan, I think from Syed Imam Shah)

You can access it from the new site by searching for the text: "Hussein".

The actual Ginan is: Jaagat kiyunnaahin re bhalaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4224

Aal nabi ki aulaad Ali ki,
Panj-Tan paak bakhaano re;
Hassan Hussen do noor pechhaano,
unse umat saari re - bhalaa tun 2

Praise the progeny of the Prophet and the offspring of Hazarat Ali i.e Panjtan Pak. Recognize the Noor of both Hazart Hasan and Imam Husein through whom the whole Umma is existing.

Hasan and Husein were both bearers of the Noor as the rest of Panjtan Pak. However Husein like Aly was the Nirinjan, hence the Imams are called al-Huseini.

[kmaherali]

The word CHAKRA is derived from Sanskrit, meaning "wheel", or "circle of life". They consist of seven main energy centers found in the body and is associated with a variety of colors, symbols and Hindu gods. In Hinduism, the continuous flow of energy throughout the chakras is referred to as “Shakti”. The concept of chakra was first mentioned in the ancient sacred Hindu text, The Vedas, but also plays an important role in Tibetan Buddhism.

A verse from the Qur'an states:

Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

Qur'an 17:1

In the above verse the mosques can indicate the various centers in the body where the lights of various colors are experienced before the ultimate experience. The lights are the signs to indicate that a yogi who practices meditation is on track in his journey for the final enlightenment. The locations where the light is experienced correspond to the chakras. Yogis have had these experiences in the past and have related them as well.

Paramahansa Yogananda in his commentary of the Bhagavad Gita (3:11) explains the relationship of the chakras to the devas:

A deeper interpretation of this stanza can be understood only by advanced yogis. It follows: Withdraw the life force from the muscles, efferent and afferent nerves, heart, and other bodily activities, and unite it with the subtler astral nerve currents in the spine - the subtle centres in the cocygeal, sacral, lumbar, dorsal, and cervical regions, where enthroned, respectively, are the five astral angels: Ganesh, god of success; Shakti, goddess of power; Surya-Creator, god of fire; Vishnu, god of preservation; Shiva, god of dissolution.

These deities, as differentiated forces of God's creative consciousness, sustain the human body and are naught else than diverse manifestations of the One Spirit. The yogi should let the life current automatically flow from the lower spinal centres to the higher ones by mental pushes of concentration; he should never be unduly attracted to the beauty of one centre, for thus his attention would remain locked there, unable to proceed to the medulla and the cranial or highest centre.

From the above bolded statements it is clear that the experiences of light in the chakras is not the ultimate experience and in fact can hinder the progress in meditation if wrongly interpreted. Many saints have had the ultimate experience without experiencing the lights of the chakras.

Pir Sadardeen says about such experiences in the Ginan: Sakhee Mahaapad Kerre Vaat http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118

sakhee ettalaa sarve nishaan melyaa neechore
bhaai tethee u(n)chaare desh ke chaddavaa unchaare................6

All the experiences and signs above are to be discarded and not to be given
too much significance as the real destiny of the soul is even higher.

[Admin]

Same can be said of the verses "Hassan Hussein do Nur Pichano usme umat sarire..." [My memory fails me, I can't identify which ginan, I think from Syed Imam Shah)

You can access it from the new site by searching for the text: "Hussein".

The actual Ginan is: Jaagat kiyunnaahin re bhalaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4224

Thanks. The site is terabytes of data (and abour 4TB will be added this year) so sometime it is just too overwhelming and simple ways of finding difficult things are just forgotten... even by Admin!

[shivaathervedi]

OHONG NIRINJIN EEK VARKHASHJ KEETA
UN KU(N) DHALI DOEY JO DITTA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOORE ALI MURTAZA (SYED AHMAD SHAH)

Thanks for quoting them. These are verses from Seeharfi - 30 Letters http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23066

oha(n)g neeree(n)jan ek vrakshaja keetaa
unaku(n) ddaallee doejo deetaa....................................6

The indescribable word (oha(n)g) created one tree and two branches appeared(manifested).

ek nur mohammad mustafaa
ane dujaa nur alee murtazaa.......................................7

The first one is the light of Muhammed the chosen and the second is the light of Aly the favoured.

The Niranjan (Unknowable and Undescrbable) is the tree. The two branches are the Noor.

The Niranjan is the Imam in our tradition as per Ginan Verse:

ejee satgur sat karee jaann mahamad rupejee
aad niri(n)jan saam sadaay alee rupejee......................2

Know with conviction that the True Guide is in the form of Prophet Muhammed. The Everliving Lord who is undescriptible and unknowable from the beginning, is indeed in the form of Aly.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22935

The Imam is the ShahPir. He is both the Shah and the Pir. The Imam represents the Niranjan and also the Noor. The Prophet is the Noor (Pir, Satgur).

Hence the Aly is the tree and one branch, the Muhammad is the other branch.

The above part of ginan is in consistence with pro Alamout and post Alamout
philosophy adopted by Dais and Ismaili philosophers.
You wrote," The indescredibable word created one tree and two branches appeared" This is according to Fatimid Ismaili philosophy, In the beginning was word " KALME I KUN " and from Kalme i Kun emancipated Universal Pen and Loh i Mahfuz. One is Noor e Muhammadi and other is Noor e Ali, which you translated as," The first one is the light of Muhammad the chosen and the second is light of Ali the favored. Now question is chosen by who or favored by who?
Is Nirinjin noor also or something beyond Noor.
When Ali is whole TREE then why to compare him with a branch.

[shivaathervedi]

Same can be said of the verses "Hassan Hussein do Nur Pichano usme umat sarire..." [My memory fails me, I can't identify which ginan, I think from Syed Imam Shah)

You can access it from the new site by searching for the text: "Hussein".

The actual Ginan is: Jaagat kiyunnaahin re bhalaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4224

Aal nabi ki aulaad Ali ki,
Panj-Tan paak bakhaano re;
Hassan Hussen do noor pechhaano,
unse umat saari re - bhalaa tun 2

Praise the progeny of the Prophet and the offspring of Hazarat Ali i.e Panjtan Pak. Recognize the Noor of both Hazart Hasan and Imam Husein through whom the whole Umma is existing.

Hasan and Husein were both bearers of the Noor as the rest of Panjtan Pak. However Husein like Aly was the Nirinjan, hence the Imams are called al-Huseini.

The first two stanzas in the above mentioned part of ginan are in the praise of the progeny of Nabi and Ali. But in next two stanzas,
HASAN HUSSAIN DO NOOR PAICHAANO
UNSEY UMMAT SAARI RE...
Here what is meant by Ummat.
Is aale Ali wa Nabi is called Ummat ( look at wordings 'unsey ummat sari', or
all Ismailis are called ummat, or all Muslims, or all human beings are ummat?

[shivaathervedi]

If you have mentioned the couplet of Romi in Persian would have been easier to elaborate. In parenthesis you have put the word 'pir' can be some one else.
Who is mother of THE BOOK?

I don't know Persian so I do not have access to the Persian version but I did post the reference from the Mathnavi and hence you can access the appropriate verses. The Pir was mentioned in parenthesis because it was an extension of what was quoted in the preceding verses and it was referring to what had been posted in the prior verses:

To you it is a wall, to them it is a door; to you a stone, to (those) venerated ones a pearl.

What you see plainly in the mirror—the Pir sees more than that in the brick.
The Pirs are they whose spirits, before this world existed, were in the Sea of (Divine) bounty.

Before (the creation of) this body they passed (many) lifetimes; before the sowing they took up (harvested) the wheat. 170 They have received the spirit before (the creation of) the form; they have bored the pearls before (the creation of) the sea.


(Whilst) consultation was going on as to bringing mankind into existence, their spirits were in the Sea of (Divine) Omnipotence up to the throat.

When the angels were opposing that (creation of man), they (the Pirs) were secretly clapping their hands (in derision) at the angels.

He (the Pir) was made acquainted with the (material) form of every existent being, before this Universal Soul became fettered (by materiality).(Mathnavi 2:166 onwards)

The mother of the book is the LOW MAHFUZ. According to Sunnis it is Allah himself and according to our prior discussions in this thread it is the Noor of Imamat/Piratan.

Please note that mowlana Romi was not aware of Satpunthi Piratan system.
He passed away before Pir Sadardin was born. He has used the word pir in sense of 'buzurg' or murshid, but his concept of pir or understanding is different than definition of SATPUNTHI PIR.
Sunnis do not equate Loh e Mahfuz with Allah but consider creation of Allah.
Who is THE BOOK, 'AL KITAB'?

[kmaherali]

Now question is chosen by who or favored by who?
Is Nirinjin noor also or something beyond Noor.
When Ali is whole TREE then why to compare him with a branch.

If we consider the metaphysics of creation, then the first principle is the Divine Essence (the Dhaat or Nirinjan - the Unknowable without form and attibutes). Then from that the Divine Intelligence representing the Divine Will emanated.Then we have creation tthrough the Will which is also called the Universal Soul.

According to the Ismaili Satpanth tradition, the Imam is the ShahPir. Being the Mazhar of the Essence, the Imam is also the Mazhar of the Divine Intelligence . The Prophet is the Pir who is appointed by the Imam. When we consider the Noor of Aly to be equal to the Noor of Muhammad we are considering the Piratan aspect of the Imam. So the Imam as the Mazhar of the Niranjan favours himself and choosesthe Prophet.

Noor is only a symbol. It's usage can vary. Thus in the Ginans it refers to the Niranjan and to the Light of Piratan.

ejee satgur saathee keejee-e, to paratak shaah deekhlaay
satgur bhetteeye muneevaro, to haajar shaahaa nur paay.......2

Make the True Guide as your companion, then he will show you the
manifest Lord (Imaam). Embrace the True Guide believers,
then you will attain the Light of the Lord.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

Imaanee Aa Jug Maa(n)he Janneeye http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889

In the above verses the Noor is the Niranjan formless aspect which is the object of our worship and attainment - He who is above all else and to whom we return to.

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/solonano02.html

The the above verse of Sloko Nano it appears that there are two 'levels' or aspects of Noor. The Noor of Piratan was derived from the Noor the Niranjan.

Since the Piratan is derived from the Niranjan and hence the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir, in the same manner the branch is derived from the tree and hence the tree is also the branch. But the converse is not true, the Pirs are not always the Imam and the branches are not the tree itself.

[shivaathervedi]

ANCIENT INDIA

The name India is drived from INDUS (Indus river; Sind or Sindhu river). In the beginning it was sind and not Hind, Hind was adopted thousands years later by adopting Hindu dharma. In the book named "TARIKH E AAINA E QADEEM SINDH" written by abdul Karim Bhatti published in 1955, has mentioned through research work that whole territory which is known as Asia today was called Sind. Mr. Bhatti wrote that Sind was the other name of Seth son of Adam or the name of Seth's brother born after him. Modern era Sind is a reduced portion of land included in Pakistan.

The Indian civilization is one of the oldest in the world. Farmers had begun to build villages in the valleys of the River Indus and the nearby River Ghaggar-Hakra (in modern-day Pakistan and India) by about 7000 BC. These settlements grew larger and eventually became the centre of a great civilization that flourished from about 3200 BC until about 1700 BC. The greatest cities of that civilization have been named Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa by archaeologists. The inhabitants of these cities constructed great buildings and made beautiful crafts.

The two largest cities of the Indus civilization, Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro, had streets of brick-built houses laid out on a grid system. Both cities had their own water supply and sewage systems (for the disposal of waste), making them the first known cities in the world to do so. One of the first civilizations to have the wheel, the Indus Valley also developed a type of writing using symbols that may have represented words. However, these symbols have not yet been deciphered.

Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro flourished until about 1700 BC, when people seem to have gradually moved away, perhaps because the rivers on which the cities depended changed course or constantly flooded. The cities lay in ruins and were buried beneath soil and vegetation until the 19th century, when archaeologists began to uncover their remains. Among those remains was the famous "Priest-King" statue, which some archaeologists believe represents a priest or other important man.

Some time around 1500 BC, speakers of an Indo-Aryan language, who were semi-nomadic pastoralists from central Asia, moved into India and occupied the territory of the now fallen Indus Valley civilization. They took over the old Indus Valley civilization of western India and slowly spread across central and eastern India. With them they took the language of Sanskrit and the religion of Hinduism. Their descendants dominated India for about 1000 years. What little we know about their movements and wars has been preserved in the mythic Vedas, the holiest books of the Hindu religion.

In around 1000 BC, the Aryans began to work in iron and gradually moved east into the Ganges river valley, where they grew rice. They formed small tribal kingdoms known collectively as janapadas. By around 700 BC these had come together to form 16 large mahajanapadas ("great realms"). Around 500 BC, the greatest of these was Magadha, ruled by its energetic king, Bimbisara. These kingdoms constructed large cities with mud-brick defensive walls.
As powerful kingdoms grew up in India during the 500s BC so Indian religions developed. This was the period when Hinduism became fully organized; it was also the time when Mahavira, founder of Jainism, and Siddhartha Gautama, founder of Buddhism, both lived. All three religions made use of the Aryan language, Sanskrit.

Hinduism has been called “the oldest religion in the world”. It has no single founder and comes from many different Indian cultures and traditions. The word Hindu comes from the Persian word Sindhu, or "river", because the earliest Hindus lived in the Indus Valley civilization around the River Indus. As the Indo-Aryan groups who lived in the region moved out across India, they took the Hindu religion with them.

Hinduism has three main types of scripture, all written down in the Aryan language of Sanskrit. The first are the four Vedas, which were written down between 1200 BC and 900 BC. The Hindus believe that these four are divine texts and cannot be changed in any way. The four are: the Rig Veda, which contains religious hymns; the Sama Veda, which consists of chants for Hindus to sing as part of their worship; the Yajur Veda, which contains words to be spoken by Hindu priests; and the Arthara Veda, which is full of magic spells.

As Hinduism developed during the 8th century BC, Hindus began to wonder about the meaning of life and other important questions. These questions gave rise to the second group of scriptures. The Upanishads (”sittings near a teacher”) explore the main concepts of Hinduism. The Aranyakas (“wilderness texts") deal with the meaning of rituals. The Puranas (“ancient myths”) contain stories of creation and the lives of the gods. Like the Vedas, the Upanishads are divine and cannot be changed.

The final group of Hindu scriptures are two epic poems. The Mahabharata, which appeared in about 500 BC, is 200,000 lines long and is the longest poem ever written. At its core is the Bhagavad Gita (“Song of the Lord”), a conversation between the god Krishna, one of the avatars (appearances) of Vishnu, and his chariot driver Krishna .

The second poem, the Ramayana, was first written down in around 300 BC and tells the story of how Rama, another avatar of Vishnu, rescued his wife Sita, who had been kidnapped by Ramana, the demon king of Lanka.

Sanskrit;

Sanskrit is an Indo-European language brought to India by the Aryans. In the 350 BC, the scholar Panini wrote out the Eight-Chapter Grammar that has defined the language ever since. Sanskrit was considered to be refined way of speaking: to speak Sanskrit was to show your high social class and educational achievements.
A formal, literary language, Sanskrit was used for religious purposes, as well as for poetry, drama and scientific and philosophical works. It existed alongside other languages used in everyday conversation. Today Sanskrit is one of the 22 Indian languages recognized by the Indian Constitution and is still spoken across India.

Mauryan Empire;

By the 3rd century BC most of northern and central India had become one empire. It was called the Mauryan Empire after Chandragupta Maurya, who founded it in 322 BC after Alexander the Great had left India. Maurya, followed by his son Bindusara, then brought most of the rest of India into the empire.

Ashoka;

By the time the third emperor, Ashoka (reigned 269–232 BC), came to power, there was only one major state left to conquer: KALINGA on the east coast. Ashoka conquered Kalinga, but caused so much bloodshed that he was overcome by guilt. He converted to Buddhism and set about governing his empire in a more peaceful manner.
Ashoka came to the throne, there were several different religions in India, including Hinduism, which later became India’s main religion. Buddhism was founded by Siddhartha Gautama (c.563–483 BC), but it only had small groups of followers until the reign of Ashoka, who encouraged the spread of the religion throughout his empire.
Ashoka set up trading links with neighbouring lands and built a network of roads. His beliefs about how people should behave and the laws he made were engraved on rocks and pillars throughout the empire.

[shivaathervedi]

Now question is chosen by who or favored by who?
Is Nirinjin noor also or something beyond Noor.
When Ali is whole TREE then why to compare him with a branch.

If we consider the metaphysics of creation, then the first principle is the Divine Essence (the Dhaat or Nirinjan - the Unknowable without form and attibutes). Then from that the Divine Intelligence representing the Divine Will emanated.Then we have creation tthrough the Will which is also called the Universal Soul.

According to the Ismaili Satpanth tradition, the Imam is the ShahPir. Being the Mazhar of the Essence, the Imam is also the Mazhar of the Divine Intelligence . The Prophet is the Pir who is appointed by the Imam. When we consider the Noor of Aly to be equal to the Noor of Muhammad we are considering the Piratan aspect of the Imam. So the Imam as the Mazhar of the Niranjan favours himself and choosesthe Prophet.

Noor is only a symbol. It's usage can vary. Thus in the Ginans it refers to the Niranjan and to the Light of Piratan.

ejee satgur saathee keejee-e, to paratak shaah deekhlaay
satgur bhetteeye muneevaro, to haajar shaahaa nur paay.......2

Make the True Guide as your companion, then he will show you the
manifest Lord (Imaam). Embrace the True Guide believers,
then you will attain the Light of the Lord.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

Imaanee Aa Jug Maa(n)he Janneeye http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889

In the above verses the Noor is the Niranjan formless aspect which is the object of our worship and attainment - He who is above all else and to whom we return to.

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/solonano02.html

The the above verse of Sloko Nano it appears that there are two 'levels' or aspects of Noor. The Noor of Piratan was derived from the Noor the Niranjan.

Since the Piratan is derived from the Niranjan and hence the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir, in the same manner the branch is derived from the tree and hence the tree is also the branch. But the converse is not true, the Pirs are not always the Imam and the branches are not the tree itself.

My question was ," Is Nirijin Noor also or something beyond Noor"? Your explanation is, " the divine Essence ( Dhat or Nirinjin - the unknowable without form or attributes)", this statement shows that Nirinjin is beyond Noor as Noor is the attribute of God.
Further you wrote," Then from that Divine Intelligence representing the Divine Will emanated then we have creation through the Will which is also called Universal Soul". Now according to you first Nirinjin- then Divine Intelligence- then Universal soul; it is the same sequence which I am explaining according to Ismaili Philosophy. Ali is the Universal Soul that's why in Satpunthi literature he is called " jeevu(n) na dataar".
Branch can not be called tree, there are hundreds of branches emanated from tree. The foundation is seed from which tree is.

[shivaathervedi]

KALINGA

Kalinga may refer to:
Kalinga (province), in the Philippines
Kalinga (India), an ancient kingdom in India and the present state of Odisha
Kalinga Kingdom, the ancient Indian kingdom as mentioned in epic literature
Kalinga alphabet, an ancient writing system for the Odia language
Kalinga language, spoken in the Philippines
Kalinga people, an ethnic group in the Philippines
Kalinga, Queensland, a locality of Brisbane, Australia
Kalinga Prize, a UNESCO prize awarded for the popularisation of science
26214 Kalinga, an asteroid

[Admin]

So now the Kalinga alphabet has 6.6 millions characters or soldiers?

At least have some sense of going to the definition from Ismaili sources instead of Wiki (weakest) sources.

[shivaathervedi]

So now the Kalinga alphabet has 6.6 millions characters or soldiers?

At least have some sense of going to the definition from Ismaili sources instead of Wiki (weakest) sources.

You keep forgetting, this thread is about Hindu mythology and terminologies.
It is information about the word Kalinga. It is not only wiki, there are hundreds of other sources.
Merci, s'il vous plait.

[Admin]

I did not know that there was Hindu Mythology or terminology in Australian Kalinga and there was a hidden Cheenab Nagri in the Unesco prize of the same name.

However I can tell you that people get easily bored with too much unclear irrelevant copy-paste. And it really looks like your contribution to this thread is 99% copy paste.

Please recognise that we need to enhance the level of discussion, not to degrade it. S'il vous plait, Merci!

[kmaherali]

Here what is meant by Ummat.
Is aale Ali wa Nabi is called Ummat ( look at wordings 'unsey ummat sari', or
all Ismailis are called ummat, or all Muslims, or all human beings are ummat?

Ummat means community, a people, a nation etc and hence it is relative to what one is referring to.

In my opinion Ummat of the Prophet is the Muslim Umma. Ummat of Ali and Muhamad are the Shia. The Ummat of Husein and Hasan are the Ismailis who believe in the notion of the Imam as the Shah Pir.

I base it upon the message sent by MSMS about the symbolism of the My Flag:

Wazir Dr. Pir Muhammad Hoodbhoy (1905-1956), the then President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan had made a humble submition to the Imam in his letter of October 8, 1954, asking the interpretation of green and red colours of the Ismaili flag. In reply, the Imam sent the following letter that:-

16TH OCTOBER, 1954

MY DEAR HOODBHOY,

IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KINOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.

THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/828

[kmaherali]

Please note that mowlana Romi was not aware of Satpunthi Piratan system.
He passed away before Pir Sadardin was born. He has used the word pir in sense of 'buzurg' or murshid, but his concept of pir or understanding is different than definition of SATPUNTHI PIR.
Sunnis do not equate Loh e Mahfuz with Allah but consider creation of Allah.
Who is THE BOOK, 'AL KITAB'?

The notion of Piratan is not restricted to Satpanth Ismailism. In Sufi Islam it is a common term as well. The difference between Ismailis and other Sufis is that Piratan is a permanent institution whereas in other tariqahs it is temporary and may last for a few generations and some silsilas may extend to Muhammad or Ali.

Otherwise the notions about the metaphysics and the capacity of Piratan is very similar. Mowlana Rumi must have got his insights from his murshid Shams Tabriz who was the son of the Imam.

The book as in Ahl al-kitab would be a book that is common to all the Ahl al-Kitab, i.e, Christian, Jews, Hindus etc - a common scripture. That would be the author of all scriptures - The Noor of Imamat/Piratan.

[kmaherali]

My question was ," Is Nirijin Noor also or something beyond Noor"? Your explanation is, " the divine Essence ( Dhat or Nirinjin - the unknowable without form or attributes)", this statement shows that Nirinjin is beyond Noor as Noor is the attribute of God.

As I indicated in my post Noor (light) is only a symbol. When we say the Noor of Piratan we don't mean the physical light. Since light removes physical darkness, it serves as a symbol of the manifestation of Divine Intellect which removes the darkness of ignorance.

The nature of light is also elusive and indeterminant, at times it behaves like waves and at other times it behaves like particles. You cannot conceptualize something that is both a particle and a wave. Hence it can serve as the symbol of Unknowable God.

Hence light is the symbol for both the Divine Intelligence and the Unknowable God - the Niranjan.

[kmaherali]

ANCIENT INDIA

There has been discussion in this forum at:

Significance of India
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

[shivaathervedi]

Here what is meant by Ummat.
Is aale Ali wa Nabi is called Ummat ( look at wordings 'unsey ummat sari', or
all Ismailis are called ummat, or all Muslims, or all human beings are ummat?

Ummat means community, a people, a nation etc and hence it is relative to what one is referring to.

In my opinion Ummat of the Prophet is the Muslim Umma. Ummat of Ali and Muhamad are the Shia. The Ummat of Husein and Hasan are the Ismailis who believe in the notion of the Imam as the Shah Pir.

I base it upon the message sent by MSMS about the symbolism of the My Flag:

Wazir Dr. Pir Muhammad Hoodbhoy (1905-1956), the then President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan had made a humble submition to the Imam in his letter of October 8, 1954, asking the interpretation of green and red colours of the Ismaili flag. In reply, the Imam sent the following letter that:-

16TH OCTOBER, 1954

MY DEAR HOODBHOY,

IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KINOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.

THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/828

Present Imam has used the word UMMAH frequently in his speeches and farmans and surely he has been speaking of Muslim Ummah and not of his followers. No doubt Ismaili flag colors are green and red but many countries's flag colors have green and red. Green and red colors were/are adopted by Christians also. Imam's racing colors are also green and red. I just saw a photo of Imam's race horse jockey wearing red and green color dress on Ismaili heritage!!!

[shivaathervedi]

Please note that mowlana Romi was not aware of Satpunthi Piratan system.
He passed away before Pir Sadardin was born. He has used the word pir in sense of 'buzurg' or murshid, but his concept of pir or understanding is different than definition of SATPUNTHI PIR.
Sunnis do not equate Loh e Mahfuz with Allah but consider creation of Allah.
Who is THE BOOK, 'AL KITAB'?

The notion of Piratan is not restricted to Satpanth Ismailism. In Sufi Islam it is a common term as well. The difference between Ismailis and other Sufis is that Piratan is a permanent institution whereas in other tariqahs it is temporary and may last for a few generations and some silsilas may extend to Muhammad or Ali.

Otherwise the notions about the metaphysics and the capacity of Piratan is very similar. Mowlana Rumi must have got his insights from his murshid Shams Tabriz who was the son of the Imam.

The book as in Ahl al-kitab would be a book that is common to all the Ahl al-Kitab, i.e, Christian, Jews, Hindus etc - a common scripture. That would be the author of all scriptures - The Noor of Imamat/Piratan.

In sufi Islam the word pir is not used as used in Satpunthi literature. Sufi consider their pir as murshid and not like an Ismaili Imam. Before Shams Tabriz the word PIR was not induced in pro or post Almout Ismaili literature.
Who is AL KITAB according to Ismailis beliefs?

[shivaathervedi]

My question was ," Is Nirijin Noor also or something beyond Noor"? Your explanation is, " the divine Essence ( Dhat or Nirinjin - the unknowable without form or attributes)", this statement shows that Nirinjin is beyond Noor as Noor is the attribute of God.

As I indicated in my post Noor (light) is only a symbol. When we say the Noor of Piratan we don't mean the physical light. Since light removes physical darkness, it serves as a symbol of the manifestation of Divine Intellect which removes the darkness of ignorance.

The nature of light is also elusive and indeterminant, at times it behaves like waves and at other times it behaves like particles. You cannot conceptualize something that is both a particle and a wave. Hence it can serve as the symbol of Unknowable God.

Hence light is the symbol for both the Divine Intelligence and the Unknowable God - the Niranjan.

So Noor is symbol according to you like other symbols, Noor is either particle nor wave then what is Noor? Again question stays where it was that Nirinjin
is Noor or not or beyond Noor.
LA THI UNN ZAAT KAHAWEY, JAHA(N) KI BAAT KAHI NAV JAWEY.

[shivaathervedi]

MATHURA

Mathura is a city in the North Indian state of Uttar Pradesh. It is the administrative centre of Mathura District of Uttar Pradesh. During the ancient period, Mathura was an economic hub, located at the junction of important caravan routes. The 2011 census of India estimated the population of Mathura to be 441,894.
Mathura is the birthplace of Krishna at the centre of Braj or Brij-bhoomi, called Shri Krishna Janma-Bhoomi, literally: 'Lord Krishna's birthplace'. It is one of the seven cities (Sapta Puri) considered holy by Hindus. The Keshav Dev Temple was built in ancient times on the site of Krishna's birthplace. Mathura was the capital of the Surasena Kingdom, ruled by Kansa the maternal uncle of Krishna.

Mathura has an ancient history and also homeland and birthplace of Krishna who was born in yadu dynasty. According to the Archaeological Survey of India plaque at the Mathura Museum, the city is mentioned in the oldest Indian epic, the Ramayana. In the epic, the Ikshwaku prince Shatrughna slays a demon called Lavanasura and claims the land. Afterwards, the place came to be known as Madhuvan as it was thickly wooded, then Madhupura and later Mathura.

Mathuran art and culture reached its zenith under the Kushan dynasty which had Mathura as one of their capitals, the other being Purushapura (Peshawar). The dynasty had kings with the names of Kujula Kadphises, Kanishka, Huvishka and Vasudeva I.

The city was sacked and many of its temples destroyed by Mahmud of Ghazni in 1018 and again by Sikandar Lodhi, who ruled the Sultanate of Delhi from 1489 to 1517.
Sikander Lodhi earned the epithet of 'Butt Shikan', the 'Destroyer of Hindu deities'. The Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb, built the city's Jamia Masjid . The noteworthy fact is that the exact place of birth of Krishna, according to historians, is in the place of worship of the Hindus, though the mosque was built near the birthplace of Krishna. The bigger Krishna shrine, better known as Dwarkadeesh Temple is a few meters away from what is believed to be the actual birthplace of Krishna.

[kmaherali]

Present Imam has used the word UMMAH frequently in his speeches and farmans and surely he has been speaking of Muslim Ummah and not of his followers.

As I said Ummah can mean different things in different contexts. When the Imam speaks to the external audiences he means Muslim Umma. The Peer has used the Ummah in the context of the Noor of Husein and Hasan. Most Muslims don't know who they are and hence cannot be part of the Ummat that was referred in the Ginan.

Prince Aly khan called ceratin bees in the compound of a Jamat Khana as Ummat of his grandfather! Go to the link below for more.

Honey bees
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... s+aly+khan

No doubt Ismaili flag colors are green and red but many countries's flag colors have green and red. Green and red colors were/are adopted by Christians also. Imam's racing colors are also green and red. I just saw a photo of Imam's race horse jockey wearing red and green color dress on Ismaili heritage!!!

I never implied that green and red are exclusive to the My Flag. I don't think there is any colour that is exclusive for one purpose only in this day and age. However in the context of My Flag the symbolism is unique for Ismailis. Also the My Flag has an emblem of the Taj which makes it unique for Ismailis. Taj has the symbolism of the Takht (Throne).