Raam setu AKA Adams bridge

[ismaili103]

Did you know there is a link/stone bridge between southern tip of india and northern tip of srilanka which is know as Raam Setu OR Adams bridge.

The bridge built by Sri Raam and his army reach Srilanka to kill Ravan. The bridge is also known as Adams Bridge becuase Many christians Believe Adam falls in Srilanka and cross that bridge.

Isn't it astonishing fact that according to the Ismaili doctrines, Sri Raam was the first modern human being( Homo Sapiens) on earth. It means Adam and Sri Raam both were the same person.

So it means either historical name "RAAM SETU" or modern name " ADAMS BRIDGE" both are refering to the same person.

[kmaherali]

Isn't it astonishing fact that according to the Ismaili doctrines, Sri Raam was the first modern human being( Homo Sapiens) on earth.

That is not true. Pir Sadardeen has told us that Pahelaaj who was living in the Karta Yuga was a human being. This was confirmed by MSMS in a private Mehmani in which he referred to an exceptional Sevadari as Pahelaaj! He couldn't have referrred to an animal!

[ismaili103]

Isn't it astonishing fact that according to the Ismaili doctrines, Sri Raam was the first modern human being( Homo Sapiens) on earth.

That is not true. Pir Sadardeen has told us that Pahelaaj who was living in the Karta Yuga was a human being. This was confirmed by MSMS in a private Mehmani in which he referred to an exceptional Sevadari as Pahelaaj! He couldn't have referrred to an animal!

Animals can also perform Seva and farmanbardari.

Here are some evidence from comparing Dasavatar with Human evolution.

First human on earth was HOMO ERECTUS( they were dwarf in hight and there appereance was like chimp and man) . According to Ginans first HOMO ERECTUS on earth was IMAM VAAMAN.

Second after erectus were HOMO ERGASTER( literally means WORKING MAN) , they were long in hight and having long hairs. According to Ginans first HOMO ERGASTER was IMAM FARSIRAAM. Farsiraam literally means AXE MAN, so they were the first who use wood and minerals to made tools for work thats why they were known as working man.

Third was HOMO SAPIENS( modern day humans) . According to Ginans IMAM RAAM was first modern day human on earth, thats why army of Raam was chimpanzees and homo Erectus beacuse Raam was himself first human being.

There are not only one Adam on earth. Every unique creature on earth was themselves Adam as well as the Imam of the time. MACH was fish but was himself Adam of the era as well as Imam of the time, so as KACH, NASINH BUDH AND ALI.

[kmaherali]

Animals can also perform Seva and farmanbardari.

Do you really think the Imam meant that the Sevadari was like an animal? You are stretching your imagination too far! In the Ginan about Pahelaaj, there is mention of oil-mills. What were animals doing with them? Abually was a good missionary but he was not infallible!

First human on earth was HOMO ERECTUS( they were dwarf in hight and there appereance was like chimp and man) . According to Ginans first HOMO ERECTUS on earth was IMAM VAAMAN..

Which Ginan? Be specific when you mention the Ginans.

Second after erectus were HOMO ERGASTER( literally means WORKING MAN) , they were long in hight and having long hairs. According to Ginans first HOMO ERGASTER was IMAM FARSIRAAM. Farsiraam literally means AXE MAN, so they were the first who use wood and minerals to made tools for work thats why they were known as working man..

Which Ginan?

Third was HOMO SAPIENS( modern day humans) . According to Ginans IMAM RAAM was first modern day human on earth, thats why army of Raam was chimpanzees and homo Erectus beacuse Raam was himself first human being.ALI.

Which Ginan?

There are not only one Adam on earth. Every unique creature on earth was themselves Adam as well as the Imam of the time. MACH was fish but was himself Adam of the era as well as Imam of the time, so as KACH, NASINH BUDH AND ALI.

According to Anant Akhado, God assumed different manifestations to complete certain tasks. Also there are millions of stages of evolution. To mention just ten does not convey even a fraction of the story of evolution.

So for example the Imam of the time assumed the form of Machh Avtaar to conquer the devil Sankha Sur. After the the conquest and the recovery of Vedas for the momins, the Imam reverted back to the human form. The Machh Avtaar disappeared. He was not a permanent evolutionary figure! The same goes for other avtaars. They were temporary manifestations to complete specific tasks.

[ismaili103]

According to Anant Akhado, God assumed different manifestations to complete certain tasks. Also there are millions of stages of evolution. To mention just ten does not convey even a fraction of the story of evolution.

As you said there are so e highly elavated sould and abu ali was one of them. I didnt know the ginan but abu ali wrote it in his article from book that he extracted all these info from Ginans like naklanki geeta and to munivar bhai etc. are you indirectly saying that abu ali is misleading ismailis by his interpretation of Ginans.

Second just read what I wrote about comparing Avatars with Human evolution, just look both are same.

Third, yes dasavatr is not giving full image of evolution but its giving an idea about every unique creature in each era. Absolutely there are millions of Imam between Mach and Kach , but they are not unique.

By unique I mean

Mach- who was first Fish on earth
Kach- the First Amphibian
Varah- the first herbivour small land only Mammal.
Narsinh- the first carnivore big land only Mammal.
Vaman- the first homo erectus
Farsiraam- the first homo ergaster
Raam- the first homo sapiens
Krishna- the first civilised man
Budh- the first Prophet
Ali- the most high/ Naklanki and perfect man on earth.

Each and every avatar represents uniqueness, it doesnt mean millions of other avatar of Imam are not important, they are equal important for that era.

[kmaherali]

As you said there are so e highly elavated sould and abu ali was one of them. I didnt know the ginan but abu ali wrote it in his article from book that he extracted all these info from Ginans like naklanki geeta and to munivar bhai etc. are you indirectly saying that abu ali is misleading ismailis by his interpretation of Ginans..

If I have a choice between Pir Hassan Kabirdeen and Abually, I will obviously go for the Pir. The Pir has clearly indicated that Kaljug is over and we are in Farta Velaa which is bigger than the 4 previous Yugas combined!. Abually seems to suggest that we have still over 400000 years of Kaljug to go. You decide who is right in this case.

Can you at least post Abually's article here so that we can discuss it.

Second just read what I wrote about comparing Avatars with Human evolution, just look both are same.

Third, yes dasavatr is not giving full image of evolution but its giving an idea about every unique creature in each era. Absolutely there are millions of Imam between Mach and Kach , but they are not unique.

By unique I mean

Mach- who was first Fish on earth
Kach- the First Amphibian
Varah- the first herbivour small land only Mammal.
Narsinh- the first carnivore big land only Mammal.
Vaman- the first homo erectus
Farsiraam- the first homo ergaster
Raam- the first homo sapiens
Krishna- the first civilised man
Budh- the first Prophet
Ali- the most high/ Naklanki and perfect man on earth.

Each and every avatar represents uniqueness, it doesnt mean millions of other avatar of Imam are not important, they are equal important for that era.

I think all the species are unique in their own ways. Again according Anant Akhado the appearance of Das Avtaars was to destroy the evil forces and to create ideal conditions for momins to practice their faith. It was NOT about conveying the theory of evolution. Hence as soon as their purpose was achieved the Avtaars disappeared from history and the Imamat continued in human form.

Read Anant Akhado from verse 404 onwards http://www.ismaili.net/granths/part5.html

Verse 417 states the purpose of God assuming manifestations:

Aashaajee Avtaare avtaare Nar-jee aavyaa
aavyaa te bhagat-tone kaaje jee
rakheesar gher Sree Kaayam saamee
karodd paanch-sun Pahelaaj taaryaa......Haree anant..417

Oh Lord The Lord has taken manifestations upon manifestations
to fulfil the deeds of the pious momins
The homes of the devotees are blessed by the presence
of Sree Kaayam (the everliving)
Five crore souls got salvation as a result of the
promise (kol) granted to the pious Pahelaaj
Haree You are eternal

In another Ginan:

eji nav avataare shaah nav daanaav chheddiaa
das me kalingaa teri vaarire
geenaan mahaaras peer gofte hassan shaah
ajakal shaah dhi asvaarire...........bodd tusaa nahi..........5

O momins! in the nine manifestations, the Lord destroyed nine demons.
The tenth demon is at your disposal(for annhilation). This Divine knowledge
and wisdom which is considered as full of spiritual nourishment, has been
scattered by Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen. It is now the time for the Lord (Imaam)
to mount His horse(in defence against the evil forces).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23161

[ismaili103]

The article was All about Ginans and Granths, its available on ismaili.net, I forgot the link.

Can you please quote the verse from Ginan in which Pir specifically said that kaljug is end and fartaal vela is start.

Yes Imam killed nine demons, but did you know who was first demon, his name was SHANKASUR which literally means Shell demon. Or we can say that SHANKASUR was a Shellfish which was a see creature.

Now according to your understanding how can a Shellfish can harm Murids of the time( who were humans according to you). So how can a Small Shellfish harm thousands of human murids. It doesn't make sense.

Now what make sense, at that time all murids were in small sea creatures there were no humans, and some how a different fish evolve from them which was actually a shellfish and very poisonous( just search on internet shellfish are very poisonous) and thats why that shellfish is harming murids( small sea creatures) thats why Imam manifested or evolve him into a new unique creature which was a big fish, then Imam killed shankasur. Now thats make sense.

Karim bhai actually what you are doing is you are just reading Dasavatr in Ginans and taking its zahiri meaning, but pir wrote Ginans to think about batin in it and thats what I am doing, I am comparing Ginans with science, biology, chemistry etc.

[kmaherali]

The article was All about Ginans and Granths, its available on ismaili.net, I forgot the link..

OK I will help you out...

The chart is at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/31556

According to the chart there were no humans during the Karta Juga. Hence Pahelaaj would be a non-human against all scientific basis and Ginans of Pir Sadardeen. We also know that there were humans who read the Vedas durng the Karta Jug.

Also according to the chart, the world will come to an end after 400,000 years of Kaljug which is not over!

Can you please quote the verse from Ginan in which Pir specifically said that kaljug is end and fartaal vela is start..

How many times do you want me to do that!

Ek jire bhaai re chotthaa Kaljug maanhe
chhen-tris karodd jiv
Siri Naklanki rup dekhine dhiaayaa 15

O brothers!In the 4th era of Kaljug there were 36 crores of souls. They worshipped observing the form of Sri Naklanki.

Ek jire bhaai re chovis karodd jiv gor andhaar,
jenne Gur Nar naa vaayak na maaniyaa 16

O brothers!24 crores fell into utter darkness. The ones who did not follow the guidance of the Gurnar.

Ek jire bhaai re baar karodd jiv amraapuri pohotaa
Pir Sadardin vaayake chaaliyaa 17

O brothers!12 crores attained paradise, they followed the guidance of Pir Sadardeen.

Ek jire bhaai re fartaar veraa maanhe
anant karodd jiv
Siri Islaam Shaah nu rup dekhine dhiaayaa 18

O brothers! In the era of turning (from descending Kajjug to ascending Dwapur Jug), there are countless souls. The worship observing the form of Sri Islam Shah.

The above verses clearly indicate that Kaljug is over and we are in the Farta Velaa.

There is a verse of Anant naa Nav chhugaa which states:

Aashaajee Chaar kanyaa-un Dev nee chhe
ek ardh-ang nee saar-jee,
Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen Shaah ne veenve
Swaamee maaraa karo amaaree saar........Haree anant...10

Oh Lord The four women are of the spirits(are merged in the
spirit having completed their mission. This refers to Pahelaaj,
Harischandra,Jujesthann and Pir Sadardin)
one is essentially half bodied(refers to his mission as
being incomplete)
Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen pleads to the Lord
Oh our Lord perfect us
Haree You are eternal...

The above verse clearly indicates that the eternal purpose with respect to the four yugas represented by Pahelaaj, Harishchandra, Jujesthann and Pir Sadardeen is complete.

However Pir Hassan Kabirdeen's mission of the salvation of the countless is not complete.

Hence Pir Hassan kabirdeens mission and purpose has no connection with the previous four Yugas.

Yes Imam killed nine demons, but did you know who was first demon, his name was SHANKASUR which literally means Shell demon. Or we can say that SHANKASUR was a Shellfish which was a see creature.

Now according to your understanding how can a Shellfish can harm Murids of the time( who were humans according to you). So how can a Small Shellfish harm thousands of human murids. It doesn't make sense..

Again you have not read my previous posts. I quoted Pir Hassan Kabirdin from GUR HASSAN KABIRDEEN NE KANIFA JOGEE NO SAMAVAAD - DISCOURSE:

Kanifa: What took place at the time of “Machha Avataar”?

PHK: There was a devil called “Sankhasur” who took away the “Veds” ( religious scriptures) and concealed them in the deep ocean. “(Guru) Bhramaji” ( who was Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen) meditated to secure the Lord’s help. As a result Lord Vishnu incarnated as a fish and killed “Sankhasur” and gave the scriptures to “Bhramaji”.

So because the devil was a kind of a fish, the Lord took up the form of Machh Avtaar to destroy him. The porpose was to destroy the demon. It was not about evolution. The momins got their vedas and were able to practice their faith. Please read Anant Akhado!

Now what make sense, at that time all murids were in small sea creatures there were no humans, and some how a different fish evolve from them which was actually a shellfish and very poisonous( just search on internet shellfish are very poisonous) and thats why that shellfish is harming murids( small sea creatures) thats why Imam manifested or evolve him into a new unique creature which was a big fish, then Imam killed shankasur. Now thats make sense..

That is non-sense according to what Pir Hassan kabirdeen has said.

Karim bhai actually what you are doing is you are just reading Dasavatr in Ginans and taking its zahiri meaning, but pir wrote Ginans to think about batin in it and thats what I am doing, I am comparing Ginans with science, biology, chemistry etc.

When you say that nonhumans read the vedas, or animals were able to practice astrology, then you are being completely unscientific! There is no scientific basis for aniimals being able to read the Vedas!

[ismaili103]

According to the chart there were no humans during the Karta Juga. Hence Pahelaaj would be a non-human against all scientific basis and Ginans of Pir Sadardeen. We also know that there were humans who read the Vedas durng the Karta Jug.

Also according to the chart, the world will come to an end after 400,000 years of Kaljug which is not over!

Nothing is against Ginans, Ginans only uses words and names i.e pehlaaj, Harish chandra etc but none of the Ginans said they were humans so you are unable to provide the Ginans which said specifically that there were humans at that time, plz dont give again ginan about astrologers etc, Imam is qadir e muttaliq, if Imam can give ability to became astrologer , doctors etc to humans than he can also give this ability to animals if there were no humans at that time.

That is non-sense according to what Pir Hassan kabirdeen has said.

Everyone has his or her own interpretation, and mine interpretation is more logical and scietifically acceptable,just go on internet and search how old is human race, you will get your answers that if humans were there or not in karta jug.

[kmaherali]

Nothing is against Ginans, Ginans only uses words and names i.e pehlaaj, Harish chandra etc but none of the Ginans said they were humans so you are unable to provide the Ginans which said specifically that there were humans at that time, plz dont give again ginan about astrologers etc, Imam is qadir e muttaliq, if Imam can give ability to became astrologer , doctors etc to humans than he can also give this ability to animals if there were no humans at that time..

Anyone who reads the Ginan would never imagine that the Pir would be talking about an animal as a role model. The Pir is conveying that even though Pahelaaj had difficult childhood - born in the jungle and other trials such as being put into an oil-mill, he overcame them through faith and patience.

Talking about animals having the capability of astology is unscientific. There is no way you can establish that. Of course Imam has the capacity to instil that capacity in extraordinary situations, but in normal circumstances he would not change the course of history and evolution to give that capacity to animals. If there were animals then no need of astrology and other sophisticated predictions about birth. Animals don't have that need nor the capacity.

Everyone has his or her own interpretation, and mine interpretation is more logical and scietifically acceptable,just go on internet and search how old is human race, you will get your answers that if humans were there or not in karta jug.

That is where the problem is. Das Avtaar is not about evolution. The Yugas go through cycles of 24,000 years of upward and downward development. When we talk of Karta Yuga, we are talking of an advanced human civilization about 12-14,000 years ago and not the millions of years of evolution.

Why would the Peer mention Farta Velaa if history was linear? The turning moment implies that we are now in a new cyclical phase of advancement.

Anant Akhado is very clear that the purpose of Das Avtaars was to destroy the demons, so that momins could practice their faith including reading the Vedas.

[ismaili103]

That is where the problem is. Das Avtaar is not about evolution. The Yugas go through cycles of 24,000 years of upward and downward development. When we talk of Karta Yuga, we are talking of an advanced human civilization about 12-14,000 years ago and not the millions of years of evolution.

Why would the Peer mention Farta Velaa if history was linear? The turning moment implies that we are noe in a new cyclical phase of advancement.

Anant Akhado is very clear that the purpose of Das Avtaars was to detroy the demons, so that momins could practice their faith including reading the Vedas.

If Karta jug statrted 14000 years ago( which is abviously swami yukteshwar theory) than why Pir give these figures of jugs in Ginan.

Karta 1.728 million
Treta 1.296 million
Dwapar 0.864 million
Kaljug 0.432 million

What do you think pir calculation are wrong?

Granth Dasavatar by syed Imam shah is more clear about dasavatar, because its dedicated to dasavatar, but even if you read that granth it has many baatiniat to interpret. And theory of evolution is more clearer in that.

[ismaili103]

Karim bhai , what is your interpretation on this verse of Pir shams from his Garbi.

have nathee te rup agyaarmure lol.................................3

Now there will not be an eleventh form
(manifestation of the Lord)!

nathee kaljugthee jug paa(n)chmore lol............................4

There will not be a fifth era after the present age (fourth era)!

Pir shams clearly said that there is no another jug/era after this FOURTH AND LAST KALJUG.

so its clear FARTAAL VELA IS ITSELF PART OF KALHUG.

[kmaherali]

If Karta jug statrted 14000 years ago( which is abviously swami yukteshwar theory) than why Pir give these figures of jugs in Ginan.

Karta 1.728 million
Treta 1.296 million
Dwapar 0.864 million
Kaljug 0.432 million

What do you think pir calculation are wrong?

Granth Dasavatar by syed Imam shah is more clear about dasavatar, because its dedicated to dasavatar, but even if you read that granth it has many baatiniat to interpret. And theory of evolution is more clearer in that.

You have to be careful not to interpret figurative expressions literally. For example a Ginan says: This world is of 4 days, it does not literally mean that, it means it is for a short while.

There are several ways of interpreting the information that you have given.

At first level it can mean days instead of years.

It can also mean 360 cycles of 12,000 years which would give a total of 4,320, 000 years.

[kmaherali]

Karim bhai , what is your interpretation on this verse of Pir shams from his Garbi.

have nathee te rup agyaarmure lol.................................3

Now there will not be an eleventh form
(manifestation of the Lord)!

nathee kaljugthee jug paa(n)chmore lol............................4

There will not be a fifth era after the present age (fourth era)!

Pir shams clearly said that there is no another jug/era after this FOURTH AND LAST KALJUG.

so its clear FARTAAL VELA IS ITSELF PART OF KALHUG.

I think we must try to understand the intention of the Pir. Some one just quoted two Ginan verses below today:

AASHA JI CHHATREES JUG GUREY BANDAGI KEEDHI
NAR NE KHARAA KARI MANIYA JI
FARMAN THAKI AE PHALAJ PAYA
TE BHETHA NAR NE PAAS JI...HARI ANANAT...

EJI PACHNMA JUG NAATAK DIN BHANIYEE
TE RAAT NAHI DIN HUWA AE BHI...

SYED IMAM SHAH.

The above verses indicate that there were more than 4 Yugas! (36 and 5)

I think we must consider the intent of the Pir. In the verses that you quoted, the Pir is trying to stress the urgency for attaining salvation at present, rather than waiting for future.

Fartal Velaa can't mathematically be part of Kaljug. Infinite crores cannot be part of 12 crores!

[ismaili103]

Indeed there are infinite jugs which comprises of the age of earth, not only 36.

Pir said in ginan that " I know four colors gold,silver,brown and black, but there are infinite more colors which only you(Imam) knows."

But when we are talking about these four jugs then we are talking about this fourth Kalap which is known as Khalifa Kalap and it comprise of only four jugs.

In Ginan its wrritten 12 crore got salavation by Pir saddardin and anant crore by Pir Hassan. Its not written that 12 crore only in kaljug and anant not in kaljug.[/quote]

[kmaherali]

In Ginan its wrritten 12 crore got salavation by Pir saddardin and anant crore by Pir Hassan. Its not written that 12 crore only in kaljug and anant not in kaljug.

The Ginan states:
Ek jire bhaai re chotthaa Kaljug maanhe
chhen-tris karodd jiv
Siri Naklanki rup dekhine dhiaayaa 15

O brothers!In the 4th era of Kaljug there were 36 crores of souls. They worshipped observing the form of Sri Naklanki.

Ek jire bhaai re chovis karodd jiv gor andhaar,
jenne Gur Nar naa vaayak na maaniyaa 16

O brothers!24 crores fell into utter darkness. The ones who did not follow the guidance of the Gurnar.

Ek jire bhaai re baar karodd jiv amraapuri pohotaa
Pir Sadardin vaayake chaaliyaa 17

O brothers!12 crores attained paradise, they followed the guidance of Pir Sadardeen.

Ek jire bhaai re fartaar veraa maanhe
anant karodd jiv
Siri Islaam Shaah nu rup dekhine dhiaayaa 18

O brothers! In the era of turning (from descending Kajjug to ascending Dwapur Jug), there are countless souls. The worship observing the form of Sri Islam Shah.

The above Ginan says that there were 36 crore souls in Kaljug out of which 12 crores got salvation.

In Farta Vela there are countless souls.

[Admin]

The above Ginan says that there were 36 crore souls in Kaljug out of which 12 crores got salvation.

In Farta Vela there are countless souls.

There was a speech on the Granth Chatris Kror during the SOS Khojki Conference. I am not sure if it was the first conference in 1990 or the second in 1991 but the proceedings of the first SOS Khojki conference will be on ismaili.net probably by end of this week.

Admin

[kmaherali]

[but the proceedings of the first SOS Khojki conference will be on ismaili.net probably by end of this week.

Admin

That will be helpful in the context of this discussion..

[ismaili103]

There was a speech on the Granth Chatris Kror during the SOS Khojki Conference. I am not sure if it was the first conference in 1990 or the second in 1991 but the proceedings of the first SOS Khojki conference will be on ismaili.net probably by end of this week.

Can I have the link please?

[Admin]

Please be patient. We are in the process of preparing the scans and videos of the speeches of 1990 SOS Khojki Conference. It is taking more time then initially thought. Sorry about this.

Admin

[ismaili103]

No problem..