Fasting

[kanada]

Being an Ismaili I fast because;
1. Quran says." 0 ye who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you acquire Taqwa. (al Baqara 2/183 )

2. MSMS said, " Haqiqati Mo'min NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadhan but for him 360 days are like fasting ........".

3. In Ginan Pir Sadruddin said,
JO NAFSANIYAAT KU NAKHEY
SOB ROZEY RAMZAN KEY RAKHEY ( those who do not want to fast in month of Ramazan usually twist the meaning).

4. Above all Hazar Imam himself and his family members fast in the month of Ramzan. Sufficient proof for me to fast.

Thank you and I am also in alignment with you. I have a very strong believe that you are NOT ALONE. There are several of us who believe in this but we are often being ridicule just like you have been by Shams. Shame on those who ridicule our brothers and sisters knowing that our Imam is expecting us to embrace diversity.

[ShamsB]

Based upon your logic - you should wear shoes inside JK.

As Hazar Imam wears his shoes inside JK.

Shams.

Shams, you really need to start respecting fellow Ismaili brothers and sisters beliefs. I have read your responses and often you come across to ridicule our brothers and sisters. I have not seen anyone standing up to those ridicule behavior of yours. And I feel that it is about time you need to be told that you are sometime very offensive. If you feel that batini roza is more important than what is mentioned BLACK & WHITE in the Qur'an, then you are failing miserably here since you are not even attaining batini roza by ridiculing your own Ismaili brothers and sisters.

If anyone of us believe, which is against yours, then please try to embrace diversity as our Imam is trying to preach.

Shoe on the other foot?

You are free to believe what you want to - you want to fast - go for it

Why are you forcing those that don't believe in it to fast.

I am telling you - it's okay by me if you want to fast...just don't espouse it as the ISMAILI way - and the ONLY WAY.

and for your reference - read the Usul-e-din Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah -

he is very black and white about fasting - my ba'yah is to the Imam.

Once again - you want to fast - all the more power to you - but no one gave you the authority to be the Ismaili ISIS and force all of us to fast - don't judge us and we won't judge you.

Oh and the Quran which you follow - says a lot of things - that ISIS is also claiming to follow - but that is a side point.

It also says - there is NO COMPULSION in Religion.

If you can't make a good counter argument - you shouldn't claim someone is making fun of you or ridiculing you

You are being intolerant of other people's views and have the gall to talk about pluralism and diversity in Ismailism.

Like I said - you want to fast - all the more power to you - some of us don't think it's required of us and that is our view...

Hazar Imam talks about our faith being a batini faith - and he doesn't just do it in farmans to the Jamat - but the Ummah at large - we are a SUFI tariqah.

Shams

[kmaherali]

There is verse of Anant Akhado (Ashaji) which states:

Aashaajee Paanch-mee baaree dasond-nee kaheeyen
te sahu thee mottee jaanno jee
te maanhe tame raho husheeyaar
to rahesho Gur-Nar ne saath.............Haree anant..256

Oh Lord The fifth gateway is created by observance of the tithe
know it as the biggest one
Remain intelligent and alert in this aspect
then you will constantly be with the Shah-Pir
Haree You are eternal...

If through Dasond, one attains constant presence of the GurNar (the Imam), does it really matter whether you are physically fasting during Ramadhan or not?

Isn't the purpose of an Ismaili to be close to the Imam?

[mazharshah]

Being an Ismaili I fast because;
1. Quran says." 0 ye who believe, fasting is prescribed for you as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you acquire Taqwa. (al Baqara 2/183 )

2. MSMS said, " Haqiqati Mo'min NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadhan but for him 360 days are like fasting ........".

3. In Ginan Pir Sadruddin said,
JO NAFSANIYAAT KU NAKHEY
SOB ROZEY RAMZAN KEY RAKHEY ( those who do not want to fast in month of Ramazan usually twist the meaning).

4. Above all Hazar Imam himself and his family members fast in the month of Ramzan. Sufficient proof for me to fast.

Based upon your logic - you should wear shoes inside JK.

As Hazar Imam wears his shoes inside JK.

Shams.

It seems to be me that over the last few months this board is becoming more and more radicalized and more and more intolerant of diversity or pluralism that Hazar Imam seems to espouse.
The newbies all seem to think that their version or their interpretation of ismailism is correct and everyone else is wrong - instead of offering an argument or a discussion - it seems like people are issuing fatwas - and grossly misquoting the Farmans of the Imam - but anyways - here is my thought - for all of us who claim to have all of this knowledge and an insight into what Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah was thinking or what Nasir Khusraw meant ...

Eji Ajaajil firashtaa bujarag kahiye
ane budhivant kahiye tesaa;
chhatris karodd kitaabaa paddiyaa
pann bhitar bhed na paayaa ...

Think of the story of Moses and the Shepherd - before we claim to know anyone's faith or understanding of the faith.

Shams

Shams Ji,
You are selective, you picked the sentence of your choice to hit me, and neglecting 3 other crucial points. When Quran, Farman, and Ginan prescribe
fasting then we Ismailis have no choice but to fast. It is up to you accept it or reject it. 9/10 years back when word was out that Imam fast in the month of Ramadhan, I saw a pleasant change in Ismailis, thousands from Pakistan to USA to Canada started fasting. Not only fasting but hundreds have performed Hajj and Umra from these countries, mostly whom I know personally.
I consider Prophets and Imams roll model in religious affairs.
Your argument that I should wear shoes as Imam does during visiting JK.
Shams, if shoes are neat, clean, pak and made of pak material is allowed while offering prayers in Islam. In JK we have to follow discipline. During didar or in fuctions, when Dua time approached, I saw jamait offered prayers
with shoes on. In Europe, USA, Canada newly immigrant jamaits when they leased schools and churches as Jk, they sat on benches offered prayers with shoes on!
This site is not taken over by radicals. Heritage site is offering valuable information to Ismailis in general and youths in particular though some of material placed there by some participants with fake ID's is objectionable (can be harmful in countries like Pakistan, Afghanistan and others ), but over all this site is serving well. Problem is with radical Ismailis, conservative in approach, discussions, debate, and dialogue. In my view Ismailis are liberals, broad minded, and ibn ul waqat. Are you ibn ul waqat or still living thousand years back. MSMS said," during 70 year of my Imamat, I changed farmans 70 times".

[mazharshah]

There is verse of Anant Akhado (Ashaji) which states:

Aashaajee Paanch-mee baaree dasond-nee kaheeyen
te sahu thee mottee jaanno jee
te maanhe tame raho husheeyaar
to rahesho Gur-Nar ne saath.............Haree anant..256

Oh Lord The fifth gateway is created by observance of the tithe
know it as the biggest one
Remain intelligent and alert in this aspect
then you will constantly be with the Shah-Pir
Haree You are eternal...

If through Dasond, one attains constant presence of the GurNar (the Imam), does it really matter whether you are physically fasting during Ramadhan or not?

Isn't the purpose of an Ismaili to be close to the Imam?

If your assertion is that paying dasond is a path to salvation then why we built JK's spending crores of rupees/ millions of dollars and paying huge utility bills. Just pay dasond and you are a free soul. No need of rights and rituals, religious practices, Dua bandagi, BK and majlis system, why to waste time, isn't it? If I think of Imam ,he is with me.

[mazharshah]

Based upon your logic - you should wear shoes inside JK.

As Hazar Imam wears his shoes inside JK.

Shams.

Shams, you really need to start respecting fellow Ismaili brothers and sisters beliefs. I have read your responses and often you come across to ridicule our brothers and sisters. I have not seen anyone standing up to those ridicule behavior of yours. And I feel that it is about time you need to be told that you are sometime very offensive. If you feel that batini roza is more important than what is mentioned BLACK & WHITE in the Qur'an, then you are failing miserably here since you are not even attaining batini roza by ridiculing your own Ismaili brothers and sisters.

If anyone of us believe, which is against yours, then please try to embrace diversity as our Imam is trying to preach.

Shoe on the other foot?

You are free to believe what you want to - you want to fast - go for it

Why are you forcing those that don't believe in it to fast.

I am telling you - it's okay by me if you want to fast...just don't espouse it as the ISMAILI way - and the ONLY WAY.

and for your reference - read the Usul-e-din Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah -

he is very black and white about fasting - my ba'yah is to the Imam.

Once again - you want to fast - all the more power to you - but no one gave you the authority to be the Ismaili ISIS and force all of us to fast - don't judge us and we won't judge you.

Oh and the Quran which you follow - says a lot of things - that ISIS is also claiming to follow - but that is a side point.

It also says - there is NO COMPULSION in Religion.

If you can't make a good counter argument - you shouldn't claim someone is making fun of you or ridiculing you

You are being intolerant of other people's views and have the gall to talk about pluralism and diversity in Ismailism.

Like I said - you want to fast - all the more power to you - some of us don't think it's required of us and that is our view...

Hazar Imam talks about our faith being a batini faith - and he doesn't just do it in farmans to the Jamat - but the Ummah at large - we are a SUFI tariqah.

Shams

Shams Ji,
Read the Usul e Din, read the Kalam e Imam E Mubin, read the farmans from
1951 to 1957 of MSMS, YOU WILL FIND MANY CHANGES. Imam followed the tradition of Ibn ul Waqt, change according to time.

[Admin]

Dasond can be discussed in this or other Dasond threads.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ght=dasond

Keep this thread stricktly to discuss fasting.

[kanada]

Why are you forcing those that don't believe in it to fast.

Shams, I believe you are linguistically challenged. It appears that you seem to have a rather poor grip of the English language. When did I ever make any statement on forcing you? Are you serious? Base on your response, I feel it is the other way around. I am not a preacher, I am a seeker.

[kanada]

You are selective, you picked the sentence of your choice to hit me, and neglecting 3 other crucial points.

When Quran, Farman, and Ginan prescribe fasting then we Ismailis have no choice but to fast.

Well said Mazharshah...you will always find people who will continue to ridicule as they will not hear, see nor will they understand and Allah has mentioned of people like that...

“They are deaf, dumb and blind, and so they do not think and understand.” (Al-Baqarah 2:171)

As a Muslim, we are required to fulfill basic fundamentals that is, by virtue of common sense, required and obligatory and our Imam is not going to make Farmans on fundamentals because it is given that we are required to do so. For instance, a male child has to get circumcised as it is a covenant made between Allah and Prophet Abraham. This covenant is practice by both Muslims and Jews, including Ismailis. None can certainly make an argument here. Muslims are required to get married through the act of Nikkah. It is given and again none can certainly make an argument here either. As Muslims we are required to consume Hallal food just like a Jewish family is required to consume Kosher. This commandment appears both in the Holy Qur'an (2:173) and Jewish Torah (Deuteronomy 12:21). This tradition goes back thousands of years and none can definitely make an argument here also.

[kanada]

Imam followed the tradition of Ibn ul Waqt, change according to time.

Again, very well said.

As an Ismaili, it is our core fundamentals of our Tariqah that we are only to take guidance from our Living Imam. You will find several of our Ismaili brothers and sisters who will continue to quote farmans from Imam Sultan Mohd Shah. Those farmans were made according to that time and they were fit for that time. Every farman is different according to time. For instance, in early 60's and later 70's, our Living Imam continuously made farmans on the importance of Education. His farman in Jubilee were more on Ethics. Now his farmans are more on Diversity & Pluralism. We need to move according to the time and the farmans of our Living Imam. This is again manifested by Ismailis not participating in Ashura because we have our Present Living Imam to guide us. Our core fundamental belief is to take guidance from our Living Imam.

I know there are some who will try to make silly comments out of my statement like "Shoe on the other foot (you know who I am referencing to over here)...so what about the farmans of past Imams". Well, my point is simple. The reason we are different from Ithn'Ashari or Mustalis is because we dwell in the guidance of a Living Imam and not in the guidance of past Imams.

[nuseri]

Ya ALI madad.
Fasting is an act to get into physical discipline .it may have in past supplemented value to prayers.there are 7 more ayats followed with options if one does not or able to fast.there is ayat that God says he wants to make religion easy. 1400 year back ,people did not travel 2 hours to go for job n biz,an ayat says if one has to travel, there is waiver to it.
There are set off and debatable.
Past remedy is no solution for the future but a disaster as seen around for those adamant into what Ali wants we have to do n not the past prophets did in physical circumstances.
The hidayat of Imam to india,if full wordings are known then it also shows option if one is unable to attend JK regularly.
Medically fasting is good for health n clear body toxin.
BTW during Ramadan all flight to hot n lusty destination go full from Arab countries to avoid this.
The food consumption is just 18- 20% less as day meal intake is adjusted by early morning and evening .

Does not make sense at all.
All the rubbish of the past is like empty stomach empty mind.
Ours is baatin faith not physical acrobat,acts n ritual.
In india main city because of work obligations only 50-60% fast on some days only.
This act is crap in the past n taboo like in today's time.
All hear say on MHI is fake n made up.
No alwaez have mentioned it.
I feel Shamsb need to import spiked shoes n not chappals.

Tommorow serpent will say why do Ismaili do not wear 3/4 pyjama to JK.
ADMIN need to end this rubbish.
sharaitis are valued lower than animals by almost all word leaders,they say it diplomatically, politically correct.
Whole world have agreed on this disaster class.
LATOO KE BHOOT,BATTO SE NAHI MANTE.

[kanada]

BTW during Ramadan all flight to hot n lusty destination go full from Arab countries to avoid this.

You are absolutely right. This is all rubbish indeed. BTW, do you have any article or reference for the statement you just made above. If you don't have one, then, I'm afraid you don't realize that the statement you just made is actually nothing but rubbish.

Why do you make all Ismailis look like fools when you make statements that you can't support with? Honestly, can you even provide statistics for all the flights going to lusty destinations are from Arab countries and the passengers in those planes are all Arabs? And the airlines will be willing to provide those private information to you. Are you serious?

Admin, can you please bring some level of integrity to your site. This forum is actually becoming a living JOKE.

[ShamsB]

You are selective, you picked the sentence of your choice to hit me, and neglecting 3 other crucial points.

When Quran, Farman, and Ginan prescribe fasting then we Ismailis have no choice but to fast.

Well said Mazharshah...you will always find people who will continue to ridicule as they will not hear, see nor will they understand and Allah has mentioned of people like that...

“They are deaf, dumb and blind, and so they do not think and understand.” (Al-Baqarah 2:171)

As a Muslim, we are required to fulfill basic fundamentals that is, by virtue of common sense, required and obligatory and our Imam is not going to make Farmans on fundamentals because it is given that we are required to do so. For instance, a male child has to get circumcised as it is a covenant made between Allah and Prophet Abraham. This covenant is practice by both Muslims and Jews, including Ismailis. None can certainly make an argument here. Muslims are required to get married through the act of Nikkah. It is given and again none can certainly make an argument here either. As Muslims we are required to consume Hallal food just like a Jewish family is required to consume Kosher. This commandment appears both in the Holy Qur'an (2:173) and Jewish Torah (Deuteronomy 12:21). This tradition goes back thousands of years and none can definitely make an argument here also.

Bring farmans into this.

you are calling me lingusticially challenged..

Yet you don't see how you're making assertions of what it means to be a MUSLIM -

You want Present Imam - go read Farmans made in Chitral in 2004 and Hazar Imam reiterated this message in the Walk the Talk interview.

All that is required to be a muslim - say the Shahadah.

As I have stated before - you are more than welcome to believe and practice what you want to - however - please refrain from stating that your way is Ismailism and Islam and everyone else is wrong.

There is no one correct way - there are many ways.

As Reza Aslan says - there are many christianities - thus there are many islams and by that token - many ismailisms.

next you'll bring up the 5 pillars of Islam and how we're required to follow them.

You are following a Quran 1400 years old - that is not complete - yet won't take the Farman of an Imam - who interprets the Quran for you - from a 100 or so years ago.

Oh and btw - read the Usul-e-Din Farman - it is actually something that is considered still in force - ITREBs across the world use it all the time.

Shams

[nuseri]

Ya ALI madad.
I assume you are a part of a disaster segment.
There would be many reports of sex tourism from gulf states Search the website.
Reports of tourist arrival into low cost lusty destinations like Balkan,Greece, Thailand others will tell their data on their tourism data pages of visitors from rich gulf country month by month.
66% of male citizens of these country are not marginal but ABSOLUTE womanizer.
God has blessed them for just ONE generation of wealth 1975-2050.
They could be beggars by then trying to survive in 60 degress of HEAT FROM HELL.
they have destroyed morality with womanizing n humanity with radica religion exports.
What is in store for them,analyze from current news.

[ismaili103]

We should not follow what Imam do, but we should follow what Imam say in his Farmans.

Those who are defending their point by saying that Imam observe fasting in Ramzan so its our duty to follow whatever Imam do, those people are actually deaf and dumb. Because they are treating Imam as ordinary human being like them, they are actually trying to imitating Imam without knowing that His(IMAM) actions are beyond our imagination because he is aql e qul and thats what Pir said in Ginan that Imams actions are beyond our imagination.

And those poor Ismailis who are performing hajj, I want to say them that Pir said in his Ginan that, " Attending Jamat khana once is equall to perform 68 pilgrimage".

You will find several of our Ismaili brothers and sisters who will continue to quote farmans from Imam Sultan Mohd Shah. Those farmans were made according to that time and they were fit for that time.

According to this equation, first of all you need to leave that 1400 years old book which is way old than Imams Farman. And Mowla knows within the span of these 1400 years how many times that book corrupted and changed, and definitely it had corrupted according to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's Farman.

[kanada]

And Mowla knows within the span of these 1400 years how many times that book corrupted and changed, and definitely it had corrupted according to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's Farman.

I am here to learn and I would appreciate if you can direct me to the farman where Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said that the book is corrupted. I believe you are referring here to the book as the Qur'an, right?

I am curious to know where our Imam would say that would contradict our Prophet's Hadith where al-Thaqalayn refers to a saying (hadith) about which translates to "the two weighty things." In this hadith Prophet Muhammad (saw) referred to the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt ('people of the house', Prophet's family) as the two weighty things. The Hadith is accepted by all Muslims.

"...I leave behind me amidst you two weighty things, the "Book of Allah" (The Holy Qur'an) and my "Ahl al-Bayt". Should ye be attached to these two, never shall ye get astray after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other until they meet me at the "Spring of Kauthar".

We have been given a heavy responsibility to hold fast to both the Imamate and the Qur'an. Our Living Imam guides us with the interpretation of our faith; i.e. how we need to live within the ethics of Islam. The commandment of Allah is mentioned clearly in the Qur'an, which we need to balance between the two weighty obligations.

So according to you, the Qur'an which is 1400 year old book is corrupted while the world of renowned scholars has maintained the book has been preserved in its purest form including many researches are being undertaken by IIS on various studies being made on the Qur'an. These books are sold everyday in our Jamatkhanas including Qur'an itself. At this point, I am sure you don't keep one at home.

If the Qur'an is corrupted, then why would our Imam continue to gracefully lead IIS, have Quranic surah recited during Darbar/Deedar, have the versions in our Du'a.

[ismaili103]

I leave behind me amidst you two weighty things, the "Book of Allah" (The Holy Qur'an) and my "Ahl al-Bayt". Should ye be attached to these two, never shall ye get astray after me, for verily these two will never be separated from each other until they meet me at the "Spring of Kauthar"

And according to another hadith of Prophet Mohammad " Ali is bolta Quran".

So yes, Prophet Muhammad was always right, those two weighty things "Quran" (Guidance) and Ahl e Bayt(Imam) is Hazir Imam himself, because Farmans of Imam is Quran indeed.

[kanada]

And according to another hadith of Prophet Mohammad " Ali is bolta Quran".

You did not quote me the farman where the Imam has said that the Qur'an is corrupted. You also did not quote which hadith you are extracting this statement from.

What you are doing is making statements without facts and references. It carries no weight at all.

When I make a statement, I provide with a reference like Hadith al-Thaqalayn. Whereas when you make a statement, not only do you not provide any, you don't even provide one upon a request.

And Mowla knows within the span of these 1400 years how many times that book corrupted and changed, and definitely it had corrupted according to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's Farman.

And according to another hadith of Prophet Mohammad " Ali is bolta Quran".

I am still waiting for the 2 references. Please provide me with those (of course if you have it).

[ismaili103]

Yes I have that Farman, its written in gujarati book of Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah, I cant read and right gujarati so right now I cant give you the reference but I will give you by translating it from my uncle.

BTW Farman was like. " KHALIFA USMAN K ZAMANEY MA QURAN MA KAI PHER BADAL HOWE HAI"

And about the Hadees, its a Shia hadees and many times quoted in this forum, and not only on this forum every Rec going kid in Pakistan know this hadees. [/quote]

[kanada]

Yes I have that Farman, its written in gujarati book of Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah

Thank you for your efforts in getting the farman. But I am expecting authentic farman. It has to be printed and published by Tariqah Board and approved by our Present Living Imam. Anything else is of no value because there are several of books sold in India and Pakistan that are privately published (unauthorized publication). One recent good example is the recent case in Canada where our Imam had requested to stop unauthorized publication of farmans by an Ismaili selling on Amazon. There was a taliqa that our Imam had to take a step with legal action to stop the unauthorized publication. If you are making any reference from sources that our Present Imam has not authorized, then I am afraid you are doing no different than what the other Ismaili did when he was selling authorized and unauthenticated farmans on Amazon.

Please provide me with the name of the book, page where the farman is and I would be glad to take a visit to Tariqah Board and prove its authenticity and if it is authorized by Tariqah Board.

BTW, you still didn't provide me with the reference of the Hadith. By saying it is a Shia Hadith carries no wright. Need the same of the source.

I am awaiting to hear from you.

[ismaili103]

The book of Farman is old and yes its not published by Tariqah Board, but it doesn't mean that all Farmans in that book have no Value. Many times Traiqah Board deliberately not publishes Farmans on crucial matters thats only reflects thier cowardness.

I am lucky to have many 50 years old books of Ginans and Farmans, and my grandfather have many books which are around hundereds years old and they contain immense knowledge about True Ismailism.

BTW the same Tariqah Board had printed the Granth of Pir Hassan Kabbiruddin, the name of the granth is Anant Akhado, which comprise of 500 verses, but Tariqah board only published 400 verse in the book and deliberately ignored 100 verses and I have same Granth book which is not Published by Tariqah board and that book has all 500 verses.

[kanada]

The book of Farman is old and yes its not published by Tariqah Board

...Tariqah board only published 400 verse in the book and deliberately ignored 100 verses...

Ismaili103, you seem to be living in the world of past Imams and their farmans. What makes Ismailis unique from Itn-Ashari and Mustalis is that we dwell by the guidance of our Living Imam unlike those who dwell by the guidance of past Imams. This is against our core fundamentals of our Tariqah. We are only to take guidance from our Living Imam. And our Living Imam is 49th Imam; not 48th Imam. This is again manifested by Ismailis not participating in Ashura because we have our Present Living Imam to guide us. Our core fundamental belief is to take guidance from our Living Imam.

Are you aware that our Hazar Imam approves all Farmans published by Tariqah Board? I'm sure you do. And all matters of faith is decided upon the prerogative of the Imam of the Time and Tariqah Board then proceeds with any of its publications. Farmans not published by Tariqah Board, how am I to ensure the authenticity and the accuracy of the farmans.

Honestly, as an Ismaili, I am least interested in any farmans that is not approved and authorized by our Living Imam as those are merely unauthenticated versions that I can buy anywhere.

And according to another hadith of Prophet Mohammad " Ali is bolta Quran".

BTW, you still didn't provide me with the reference of the Hadith. By saying it is a Shia Hadith carries no weight. Need the name of the source.

I am awaiting to hear from you.

[kmaherali]

If your assertion is that paying dasond is a path to salvation then why we built JK's spending crores of rupees/ millions of dollars and paying huge utility bills. Just pay dasond and you are a free soul. No need of rights and rituals, religious practices, Dua bandagi, BK and majlis system, why to waste time, isn't it? If I think of Imam ,he is with me.

It is not my assertion but the assertion of the Pir as indicated in the verses of the Anant Akhado.

Dasond and rituals are related as per verses below.

Aashaajee Keereeyaa keedhee ne dharame chaalya
sati huwo apaar jee
saat sarag-maa te jeev pohotaa
pann uncho te nahee jaay................Haree anant..359

Oh Lord A person who performs the prescribed rituals and
observes outward religious law
such a person is regarded as a great saint
He has reached the seventh heaven
but will not go higher than that(without the tithe)
Haree You are eternal...


Aashaajee Dasond na deedhee ne keereeyaa keedhee
te sati huwo apaar ji
dasond kaarann uncho nahee chaddeeyo
tene aavee deedar ni khott..............Haree anant..360

Oh Lord A person who does not submit the tithe but performs all
the prescribed rituals
such a person is regarded as a great saint(outwardly)
Without the submission of the tithe this person will not
rise higher
and will indeed incur the loss of the Vision
Haree You are eternal...

Hence without Dasond all other rituals and practices are meaningless.

After submitting Dasond all other rites and ceremonies provide protection from materialism as per Farman below:

"It is in this light that, in Shia Ismaili Islam, the Imam-of-the-Time recognises a variety of prayers, tasbihs, Bait-ul-Khayal, Qaseedas, Ginans, by which an individual can submit to the Divine and protect himself or herself against the materialism of secular life, and the many other challenges of daily life." "

There is a verse from Ashaji which states:

Aashaajee Nameeyaa khameeyaa Gur-jee ne bhaave
ane dasond Nar jeeno aahaar jee
dharam niyam tenee vaadd-j kaheeyen
Gur kahe so aapo hee aap................Haree anant..302

Oh Lord The Guide likes humility and patience
and the tithe is the food of the Lord
Remain within the boundary of religious discipline by
being regular for religious duties
and the Guide speaks spontaneously
Haree You are eternal...

JamatKhanas are absolutely necessary for the Jamat. Dasond has its method. You cannot expect to put your money on the table and expect it to reach the Imam. You have got to submit it to Mukhi Kamadias in Jamatkhana. Charities given to other institutions are not considered as Dasond.

MSMS made the Farman:

""IMAM Khudavind chhe tey BATUNI madad apey chhe ane jaheri madad apvi tey Jamat nu kaam chhe.""


.....MSMS Khangi(Private) Farman(Motaa kaam mehmani)
.....Mumbai
.....September 26, 1903

Meaning:

Imam is God and he gives batuni (hidden./spiritual) help, and to give zaheri (apparent/material) help is the work/duty of the Jamaat.

Therefore JamatKhanas and other Jamati institutions such as schools and hospitals are necessary to provide zaheri assistance to the murids.

[kmaherali]

I am here to learn and I would appreciate if you can direct me to the farman where Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said that the book is corrupted. I believe you are referring here to the book as the Qur'an, right?

The following is the Firman fo Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah suggesting that the Quran was tampered with.

"Those who show partiality and try to favour somebody, then they will become ignorant like those who having brought about alterations in the Quran created discord in religion after the demise of Prophet Muhamad."(Zanzibar, 14 September 1905)

"It is recorded in all histories, and every one knows how the Coran was written down. It was not yet in the form as it is now. Every one possessed some portions of it, which he recited. Under 'Uthman the authorities selected some portions, rejecting others. It would be too long to narrate this in detail. Then they seized by force all the other copies, and burnt them.2 Thus the knowledge of the original Coran, which was really left by the Prophet, and which remains in the hands of his 'itrat, or legitimate successors, was taken from the people."(Risala Dar Haqiqati Din, SHABU'D-DIN SHAH AL-HUSAYNI, TRUE MEANING OF RELIGION)

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0693.html


There has been extended discussion on this subject under:

Is Quran compilation complete?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 72&start=0

Please go through the thread.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Salegrih Mubarak to all & non Ismailia.
can anybody who is a fluent in Arabic with honest translation can tell whether act of fasting was obligation or compulsion to mankind.Secondly what is punishment foretold for those who do no fast.No translation of popats from Google please.
MHI in his speech on Islam in UK ,1991or 93.
Has has use the word 'Distorted', he diplomatically did not use the word Holy book.

I wish those who regard, see n hear him as Bolta Quran.
Try to understand better the words used by MHI after 59 years in Imamat.
1.'Disaster' man made for conflicts in a speech.
2.word 'Glowing' to describe a Noorani family member.
3.word ' Spiritual Father ' to identify himself.
We will get lot of answers from it.
It would be better than medieval words like Ingla,pingla,saat& bavan gaaati,mullah,kazi etc.
Let us all if possible that to know n understand from farmans & Mhi of last 58 years and try
to talk in present reality with foresight for future.
I assume that is what can be our Sufi taqiqa of Imaan & qualitative Intellect n not bog down ourselves to mediocre understanding of medevial times.
HOVE HOVE SO AAJ RAJ MUBARAK HOVE.

[ismaili103]

And our Living Imam is 49th Imam; not 48th Imam.

And every Imam has the same Noor of Ali, thats why every Imam is Ali and there is only one Imam who is manifested on earth from the origin of the creation.

BTW, you still didn't provide me with the reference of the Hadith. By saying it is a Shia Hadith carries no weight. Need the name of the source.

I am awaiting to hear from you.

I am already on it.

[kanada]

Salegrih Mubarak to all...

Khusyali Mubarak to everyone on this forum. Yesterday, there was a beautiful farman on intellect. Our Imam has always emphasize that our tariqah is the tariqah of human intellect.

May we all continue our journey through intellectualism. I appreciate several responses from all. But there are tons of questions that I am seeking. I am not a youth just for the rest on board to know that the questions I am seeking has been a quest for answers of 40 years. I will continue to seek because I am in a beautiful Din of Intellect.

Brother kmaherali, can I PM you with questions. Please let me know as I really am amazed with the references that you provide.

Thank you to all and please pardon me on some of my responses that may sound harsh...especially to you Shamsbhai.

[mazharshah]

Ya ALI madad.
Fasting is an act to get into physical discipline .it may have in past supplemented value to prayers.there are 7 more ayats followed with options if one does not or able to fast.there is ayat that God says he wants to make religion easy. 1400 year back ,people did not travel 2 hours to go for job n biz,an ayat says if one has to travel, there is waiver to it.
There are set off and debatable.
Past remedy is no solution for the future but a disaster as seen around for those adamant into what Ali wants we have to do n not the past prophets did in physical circumstances.
The hidayat of Imam to india,if full wordings are known then it also shows option if one is unable to attend JK regularly.
Medically fasting is good for health n clear body toxin.
BTW during Ramadan all flight to hot n lusty destination go full from Arab countries to avoid this.
The food consumption is just 18- 20% less as day meal intake is adjusted by early morning and evening .

Does not make sense at all.
All the rubbish of the past is like empty stomach empty mind.
Ours is baatin faith not physical acrobat,acts n ritual.
In india main city because of work obligations only 50-60% fast on some days only.
This act is crap in the past n taboo like in today's time.
All hear say on MHI is fake n made up.
No alwaez have mentioned it.
I feel Shamsb need to import spiked shoes n not chappals.

Tommorow serpent will say why do Ismaili do not wear 3/4 pyjama to JK.
ADMIN need to end this rubbish.
sharaitis are valued lower than animals by almost all word leaders,they say it diplomatically, politically correct.
Whole world have agreed on this disaster class.
LATOO KE BHOOT,BATTO SE NAHI MANTE.

Serpent is creeping again in your pyjama. You know your size of pyjama better don't bother me. Shoe ref. did not come up from my side.
What is your opinion about Imam's fasting, because you wrote ' this act is crap'.
Why are you worried about Arabs, keep tracking their destinations. My question to you; How you come to know about brothels of Greece, Balkans, and Thailand? You are following these destinations on internet for your mental lust!!

[mazharshah]

I am here to learn and I would appreciate if you can direct me to the farman where Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has said that the book is corrupted. I believe you are referring here to the book as the Qur'an, right?

The following is the Firman fo Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah suggesting that the Quran was tampered with.

"Those who show partiality and try to favour somebody, then they will become ignorant like those who having brought about alterations in the Quran created discord in religion after the demise of Prophet Muhamad."(Zanzibar, 14 September 1905)


My humble question; After hazrat Usman Mowla Ali was caliph for almost 5 years, why not he corrected the alterations made in Quran, still 70% suhaba were alive to verify with them and rewrite the Quran in original form.
Why not succeeding Imams corrected the Quran if there were discrepancies.

[mazharshah]

We should not follow what Imam do, but we should follow what Imam say in his Farmans.

Those who are defending their point by saying that Imam observe fasting in Ramzan so its our duty to follow whatever Imam do, those people are actually deaf and dumb. Because they are treating Imam as ordinary human being like them, they are actually trying to imitating Imam without knowing that His(IMAM) actions are beyond our imagination because he is aql e qul and thats what Pir said in Ginan that Imams actions are beyond our imagination.

And those poor Ismailis who are performing hajj, I want to say them that Pir said in his Ginan that, " Attending Jamat khana once is equall to perform 68 pilgrimage".

You will find several of our Ismaili brothers and sisters who will continue to quote farmans from Imam Sultan Mohd Shah. Those farmans were made according to that time and they were fit for that time.

According to this equation, first of all you need to leave that 1400 years old book which is way old than Imams Farman. And Mowla knows within the span of these 1400 years how many times that book corrupted and changed, and definitely it had corrupted according to Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah's Farman.

2 Farmans from MSMS mentioned in same book Kalam e Imam e Mubin (one about Quran and other about fasting) but a deaf and dumb is accepting one and rejecting other because that other Farman is not serving his purpose.
'Followers of Imam', what is the meaning of follower? When follower do not follow or hesitate to follow then Imam has to demonstrate to show them the right path but deaf and dumb twist the Farman or interpret in his/her own way for easiness. Pir mentioned attending JK equal to 68 pilgimages of KASHI and not K'ABA.