Pir or Mustawda Imam

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:55 am

Piratan and Imamat should be there all the times

And Piratan is even before Prophet Mohammad. It was from the origin of creation, at first Imam separated noor e Piratan from him self and then that noor created the creation.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:04 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
Piratan and Imamat should be there all the times
And Piratan is even before Prophet Mohammad. It was from the origin of creation, at first Imam separated noor e Piratan from him self and then that noor created the creation.

This is consistent with what the Granth "Khat Nirinjan" points to.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:00 pm

It a common beliefs that firat Allah was alone by him shelf first and then after he thought to create whole universe/s so that he can be recognized! First he was a hidden treasurer but latter on he dicided to come in light, so that every one knows him, recognized him, some like this has been quoted in Quran and many Shia/Sunnies agrees with any doubts.! So I don't want to go further in that topic but topic of this thread is different, so I, only gives more concentrations on it.
Many muslims brothers belives that Allah has created "NUR E MOHAMMADI" from his own Noor and from Nur e Mohammadi he created whole universals, means Allah was the creator but reasons for creations was prophet Mohd! Thus far Shias and also Sunnys belives but after that they have ignored the importance roll of prophethood! every prophets had that dewine noor, it was in prophet Moses, Isa, Shesh and in Adam! Same noor had been manifested in prophet Mohammad. and currently that noor is in in our current imam.period
You can name this noor any names you wants to give! You can tell this noor as," NOOR Yogi E MOHAMMADI, or noor e piratan! Its a same. Ismaili pirs, Nabi Mohd and noor e nabuwat are same.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:29 pm

agakhani wrote:The answers of your above two questions
1, Yes, if you are really an Ismaili then you should knows that! and why? You should knows that.
2, No, imamshahi HQ is in Pirana

One question:
Are you still not satisfied yet in your all no sense makings and weird questions? In those questions you have been tried to prove Ismaili pirs wrong! But look at you! You miserably failed in your that efforts to proven Ismailis pirs are wrong! yes they are true and they have dewine powers so it doesn't make any different whether it is a book or a lady.

Twice you posted your same statement. My question was about banana and you answered about onions! Please read again my question. It was about BRHAMA KU(N)WARIES and about Imama shahis. I have feeling, what ever I ask, you people are so prejudice that with out understanding or reading properly the question jump to answer.
Please keep in mind all of you, I have never posted that pirs are wrong or I have disrespected them. Here we are debating , discussing, arguing the facts available in Ismaili literature and in history books. I have not challenged any one's Iman. I strictly believe for you your beliefs for me mine. In my opinion zahir and batin go hand in hand. Without zahir there is no batin.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:44 pm

agakhani wrote:It a common beliefs that firat Allah was alone by him shelf first and then after he thought to create whole universe/s so that he can be recognized! First he was a hidden treasurer but latter on he dicided to come in light, so that every one knows him, recognized him, some like this has been quoted in Quran and many Shia/Sunnies agrees with any doubts.! So I don't want to go further in that topic but topic of this thread is different, so I, only gives more concentrations on it.
Many muslims brothers belives that Allah has created "NUR E MOHAMMADI" from his own Noor and from Nur e Mohammadi he created whole universals, means Allah was the creator but reasons for creations was prophet Mohd! Thus far Shias and also Sunnys belives but after that they have ignored the importance roll of prophethood! every prophets had that dewine noor, it was in prophet Moses, Isa, Shesh and in Adam! Same noor had been manifested in prophet Mohammad. and currently that noor is in in our current imam.period
You can name this noor any names you wants to give! You can tell this noor as," NOOR Yogi E MOHAMMADI, or noor e piratan! Its a same. Ismaili pirs, Nabi Mohd and noor e nabuwat are same.

Your above posting has 2 portions. In first portion you have quoted KUNTU
KANZAN KAKHFIYAN------ . This is not a Quranic ayat but it is HADITH E QUDSI.
For your 2nd portion, I believe what we recite in 2nd part of Du'a.
Obey Allah
Obey Rasul
Obey Ullil Amar.
This is the sequence give by Imam according to Quran.
What do you mean by noor? So far we do not have proper definition.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:05 pm

Admin wrote:Wazir Dr. Pir Muhammad Hoodbhoy (1905-1956), the then President of the Ismailia Association for Pakistan had made a humble submition to the Imam in his letter of October 8, 1954, asking the interpretation of green and red colours of the Ismaili flag. In reply, the Imam sent the following letter that:-

16TH OCTOBER, 1954

MY DEAR HOODBHOY,

IN REPLY TO YOUR LETTER OF 8TH OCTOBER, THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KNOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER.

THE SHAH WAS HUSSEIN, THE PEER WAS HASAN. HASAN HAD THE PEER'S COLOUR OF GREEN, BUT HUSSEIN'S MARTYRDOM WAS SO ENORMOUS IN EVENTS AND WAS SO OPPOSED TO EVEN THE SMALLEST LAWS OF WAR THAT THE COLOUR OF HIS HOLY BLOOD, NAMELY RED, WAS ACCEPTED WITH THE GREEN OF THE PROPHET'S FLAG AS A SOUVENIR AND REMEMBRANCE OF THAT TERRIBLE DAY.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/myflag/11 ... cance.html

[Sorry for the Capital letters, the source has that in Capital letters]

From ancient civilizations red and green colors were popular in nations. Even today many nation's flag has red, green, and also white. some where I read that red color symbolizes blood and green poison. I do believe Hazrat Hasan was pir, but discussion is whether he was first pir or second pir. That was discussion in 50's and 60's. What I heard, I quoted.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:15 pm

Admin wrote: This is consistent with what the Granth "Khat Nirinjan" points to.

The Granth "Khat Nirinjan" states:

Pir te je sahebe thapiya,
Niyam jugajug pire apiya.....251

A Pir is the one who has been appointed by the Imam; in every age the Pir taught about the practice of faith.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:31 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:Is book Pindiyaat e Jawan mardi creator of universe also?
Yes indeed, not just one Creator but can be multiple Creators. Those who obey it whole heartedly become elevated to Fanna fi Allah and hence acquire the properties of the Creator. There can be many not just one! So the book creates many Creators!

You wrote," not just one creator but can be multiple creators". You wrote "can be" is suspicious means you are not sure. What a good idea a book can be fanna fillah that's why is creator. In other words Quran, Bible, Puranas, Gita,
Gospel of Mathew are all creators. Karim, what message are you conveying to our youngsters, REC students and readers of this forum!

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:41 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:A senior missinary told me some time back that in 50's and 60's there was a debate, whether Prophet was first pir or Hazrat Hasan was first pir? Actually, he replied me when I asked him why MSMS not included names of pir in current Du'a. Can you elaborate further that ' his role as the Prophet of mankind was incidental'?
The debate is really unnecessary because MSMS indicated that the Prophet was the Pir and he appointed Hazarat Hasan as the Pir to continue his work.

Yes the Prophet was first of all the Pir. Piratan has always existed, so his essential office was being the Pir of Ismailis. Then of course he also assumed wider role of the Prophet of the Umma. When the Prophet died the Prophethood ended but Piratan continued...

For example if the present Imam became the Caliph of the Umma, then his role of the Caliph would be incidental to his role as the Imam of the Ismailis.

Impact of Prophet hood is for ever and prophet is considered roll model for Ummah so prophet hood is not incidental. But you can say caliphat is incidental because caliphat has never been perpetual and had broken links.
As prohet was roll model so is Imam.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:48 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote: This is consistent with what the Granth "Khat Nirinjan" points to.
The Granth "Khat Nirinjan" states:

Pir te je sahebe thapiya,
Niyam jugajug pire apiya.....251

A Pir is the one who has been appointed by the Imam; in every age the Pir taught about the practice of faith.

I believe that it is Imam's prerogative to appoint pir, and when Imam is not around it is pir's duty to teach faith. Dar een chi shak.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 7:54 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:I thought you are a kool person, thanks for your words," get into your head once and for all". I have not read the booklet "Kuchh na farmano" but I quote what you have taken from the Kuchh na Farmano," When Nabi Muhammad Mustafa departed from this world he appointed PIR IMAM HASAN as his successor to carry on the work". Please pay attention to wordings of Imam,
'PIR IMAM HASAN' with the word PIR MSMS has used the word IMAM next to word PIR. This shows the special status which I called IMAM MUSTAWDA. Other point is, MSMS never used the phrase PIR IMAM together for any other pir even pir Sadruddin in any farman as I know, if you know please quote.
My understanding about Pir Mustawda is that he is in charge of Da'wat all over the surface of earth and pir is entitled to a special territory for Da'wat.
Yes the Imam said Imam Pir Hasan in deference or respect for the beliefs of sister Shias. Hazarat Hasan was also the Caliph of the Umma and he was considered as the Imam in this respect by the other Shias. Hence MSMS used the words Imam Pir. This does not mean that he was any different than other Pirs. In our Old Dua we recited:

Offer Prayers for all Pirs:
[10]1. First, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Chosen, the Messenger, May peace and the blessings of God be upon him .
[10]2. Pir Hazrat Hasan
[10]3. Pir Qasim Shah
[10]4. Pir Jaffer Shah

Hence all Pirs are equal.

You are a IIS alumnus, highly educated and highly trained, which I am not.
Let me ask you a question. From where the phrase IMAM MUSTAWDA popped up in Ismaili literature. When phrase is there , there should be some significance of that. Elaborate.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:36 am

mazharshah wrote:You wrote," not just one creator but can be multiple creators". You wrote "can be" is suspicious means you are not sure. What a good idea a book can be fanna fillah that's why is creator. In other words Quran, Bible, Puranas, Gita,
Gospel of Mathew are all creators. Karim, what message are you conveying to our youngsters, REC students and readers of this forum!

I said it "can be" because it depends upon how the book is approached. If it is considered as a word of the Imam which must be obeyed and is obeyed, then it will lead to Fanna fi Allah. On the other hand if it is appraoched like any other book to satisfy idle curiousity, then it will lead to no where.

The book itself is not Fanna fi Allah but it holds the key towards Fanna fi Allah.

The message I am trying to convey is that any work of art which is spiritually inspired can bring you closer to God if approached with the serious attitude of personal search.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:50 am

mazharshah wrote:Impact of Prophet hood is for ever and prophet is considered roll model for Ummah so prophet hood is not incidental. But you can say caliphat is incidental because caliphat has never been perpetual and had broken links.
As prohet was roll model so is Imam.

The impact of Prophethood by itself is not for ever. It can be forever only if it is considered in conjuction with Imamat. The Prophet and the Imams may be considered as a role models for the Sunnis and other Shias , but not for Ismailis, it is contrary to our outlook. We don't follow what they do but what they tell us. MSMS once quoted a hadith: "Holy Prophet had said that if during his lifetime the people of Arabia observed 90% of his injunctions, 10% would be forgiven, but after his death, if the followers observed even 10%, 90% would be forgiven."

You may want to read more here:

MY GLORIOUS FORTNIGHT WITH SIR SULTAN MUHAMMAD SHAH
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=335

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:59 am

mazharshah wrote:You are a IIS alumnus, highly educated and highly trained, which I am not.
Let me ask you a question. From where the phrase IMAM MUSTAWDA popped up in Ismaili literature. When phrase is there , there should be some significance of that. Elaborate.

Imam Mustawda means "Entrusted Imam", someone who works on behalf of the Imam. In my opinion the Pirs are Imam Mustawda because they perform the role of Piratan on behalf of the Imam.

The Imams are at all times ShahPir or GurNar. They are both the Imam and the Pir. At times they may delegate the role of Piratan to another member of Ahl al- Bayt, hence they act on behalf of the Imam in performing the role, therefore they are Imam Mustawda.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:19 pm

Brahma Kunwari means a virgin girl , in Imam Shahi drols and Ismaili ginans it is
also quoted as a Vishwa Kunwari it is referred to the earth, it is an allegorical example because so far no king, emperors, caliphs can have able to rule the entire world this way this earth is still virgin and looking for her,one Swami but during Zahoorat MHI will able to rule in all world or may be he will commands the entire world under his leadership to fight with devil forces
( daint kalinga) and he will defeat him and that day he will become a single ruler on this earth. Swami of Brahma/vishwa Kunwari
Vishwa Kunwari shah maro parnego Bali"

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Sep 16, 2015 12:40 am

agakhani wrote:also quoted as a Vishwa Kunwari it is referred to the earth, ]

"Vishav ku(n)vaaree" can also mean the existence of an individual which is 'unmarried' with the Lord. When spiritual enlightenement happens, the existence becomes protected and provided by the Husband the Lord and it becomes filled with light in a "married" state of bliss.

There is a verse of the Ginan http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23092 which alludes to this...

ejee peer hasan kabeerdeen bolyaa venatee
sunno maaraa nar haree re ya alee
chadde tu(n) tribhovar shaam
paranne shaah vishav ku(n)vaaree ya alee.....................7

O our Lord! Peer Hassan Kabeerdeen makes this supplication.
O my momins, listen (and pray to Him) for he is indeed the Master,
the Lord Oh Ali. Rise to the greatest heights (glory be to You),
the Master of the three worlds, and be a groom to the unwed universe, Oh Ali.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:48 pm

Note: I respect Pirs, Piratan, and Ginans, my following or other questions may annoy some one, I need rational answers. Thanks.

Past 100+ years institution of Imamat and institution of Piratan is merged.
Question arises in Past 100 years Imam could not find any pious, highly ethical ma'rifati soul to be appointed as pir. Hazar Imam is extremely busy and any ordinary mureed can not get an audience with Imam, but with Pir should have been lot easier to get an appointment for religious matters. If any one writes his/her religious problems to ITREB or coordinator of religious affairs at Aiglemont not getting any answers. If any one writes to a Muslim institution or any church institution they are prompt to reply and extend all kind of religious help.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Nov 08, 2015 10:03 pm

mazharshah wrote: Past 100+ years institution of Imamat and institution of Piratan is merged.
Question arises in Past 100 years Imam could not find any pious, highly ethical ma'rifati soul to be appointed as pir.

The answer to your question has already been given in this thread.

First of all, the Pir is not appointed from some pious people nor is the Imam appointed from pious people. More than 10 Imams had kept the Piratan with themselves in the same way Shah Karim and Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah did. During the Imamat of Aga Hassanali Shah, the Pir was Aga Ali Shah. When Aga Ali Shah became Imam, he gave the Piratan to Pir Shah Khalillullah, our 47th Pir since the time of Prophet Muhammad.

The Light of Imamat manifest itself in the person of the one we call Imam and the Light of Piratan manifest itself inthe person we call Pir. When the Lights of Imamat and Piratan manifests itself in one person as it is the case now as indicated to us by our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, we call that person Shah-Pir.

I urge you to read the thread since the beginning before even posting here. We do not want the whole discussion to be duplicated. Read first all of the previous pages. If you post any question which has been answered previously, I will delete it.

Secondly do not confuse 2 different issues in the same post.

Our institutions are not bound by anything other than the Ismaili Constitution and the people serving to the best of their ability are only bound by their Oath of Honour. Some of these people fail to respect either because they are not sincere or do not have the access to the Constitution. The 5% of black sheep are giving a bad name to the 95% of people working honestly with all their heart in our institution. Have some respect for those by not generalising. Thank you.

Admin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 1:40 am

Admin wrote: The Light of Imamat manifest itself in the person of the one we call Imam and the Light of Piratan manifest itself inthe person we call Pir. When the Lights of Imamat and Piratan manifests itself in one person as it is the case now as indicated to us by our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, we call that person Shah-Pir.

The Imams are always GurNar or ShahPir regardless of whether the Piratan is held by another member of Ahl al-Bayt. When the office of Piratan is delegated to another individual, the Imam does not function as the Pir but is 'qualified' for that role. Hence there can only be one functional Pir but there can be 2 qualified Pirs.

In the Ginans, Imams are referrred to as GurNar which means they are always GurNar. The Imam being the Mazhar of the Essence can also be the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Piratan), but vice versa is not true. Hence there is always only one functional Imam.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 2:46 am

mazharshah wrote:Past 100+ years institution of Imamat and institution of Piratan is merged.
Question arises in Past 100 years Imam could not find any pious, highly ethical ma'rifati soul to be appointed as pir. Hazar Imam is extremely busy and any ordinary mureed can not get an audience with Imam, but with Pir should have been lot easier to get an appointment for religious matters. If any one writes his/her religious problems to ITREB or coordinator of religious affairs at Aiglemont not getting any answers. If any one writes to a Muslim institution or any church institution they are prompt to reply and extend all kind of religious help.

The Pirs are always appointed from Ahl al-Bayt. The Imam is the Pir as well and he functions as such. I think it is not his function to respond to individual issues, he just does not have physical time for that. However he has established various institutions such as the ITREB abd IIS which can respond to individual issues. That is the process laid out in our constitution.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:31 pm

Admin wrote:[quote="mazharshah.]
.
Our institutions are not bound by anything other than the Ismaili Constitution and the people serving to the best of their ability are only bound by their Oath of Honour. Some of these people fail to respect either because they are not sincere or do not have the access to the Constitution. The 5% of black sheep are giving a bad name to the 95% of people working honestly with all their heart in our institution. Have some respect for those by not generalising. Thank you.

As I know Admin is not affiliated with ITREB or IIS, but when I ask or want to discuss any issue on this site I am getting answer, does not matter positive or negative at least I am replied. ITREB or IIS never reply, silence is their policy.
For not replying, in my view are two options; either they are not qualified or do not have courage to answer.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:44 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote: The Light of Imamat manifest itself in the person of the one we call Imam and the Light of Piratan manifest itself inthe person we call Pir. When the Lights of Imamat and Piratan manifests itself in one person as it is the case now as indicated to us by our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, we call that person Shah-Pir.
The Imams are always GurNar or ShahPir regardless of whether the Piratan is held by another member of Ahl al-Bayt. When the office of Piratan is delegated to another individual, the Imam does not function as the Pir but is 'qualified' for that role. Hence there can only be one functional Pir but there can be 2 qualified Pirs.

In the Ginans, Imams are referrred to as GurNar which means they are always GurNar. The Imam being the Mazhar of the Essence can also be the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Piratan), but vice versa is not true. Hence there is always only one functional Imam.

Please be specific with phrase 'Ahl e Bait'. What is proper definition.
MSMS had sons and Shah Karim has sons, any son can be appointed as pir.
Your following sentence is confusing;
" Hence there can be one functional pir but there can be 2 qulified pirs".
It means there can be 2 pirs at a time one functional and other non functional. Pir's status is any how not above Imam.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:07 pm

If a respected woman can be appointed as pir, why not a respected woman from Imam's family become Imam?

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:09 pm

In our Tariqa is there any room for honorary pir?

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:16 pm

I have read the history of pirs, pro and post Almout era. My finding is that pro Almout era non of our pirs in any writings claimed their status equal to Prophet!!

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:21 pm

I heard ginans like farmans are not reprinted or published by ITREB.
Where is the problem.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:18 pm

Ya Ali madad.
Lot of religious material and written material of inspiration of faith takes a legal identity in a period where most countries have their laws n constitution over ruling material outside their ambit.
So wisdom prevails over our organisation to as not to get into complications in many countries with legal headaches.
That is wisdom n being courageous can be harmful in many circumstances.

What is ALI's prerogative to choose pir.
No human can advice him on that.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:58 am

mazharshah wrote:If a respected woman can be appointed as pir, why not a respected woman from Imam's family become Imam?

A women from Imams family can become Pir ,but not Imam. Imam is Shah from Shah and Pir, and Shah means King not Queen. Pirs also wrote the term Gur Nar, in which Gur ( Teacher ) is Pir and Nar is Imam, and Nar is a sanskrit word which means Male.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:43 am

mazharshah wrote:Please be specific with phrase 'Ahl e Bait'. What is proper definition.
MSMS had sons and Shah Karim has sons, any son can be appointed as pir.
Your following sentence is confusing;
" Hence there can be one functional pir but there can be 2 qulified pirs".
It means there can be 2 pirs at a time one functional and other non functional. Pir's status is any how not above Imam.

Ahl al- Bayt means the people of the house. Technically in Ismailism the house is that of the Prophet, so the Ahl al-Bayt are the descendants of the Prophet.

Not only any son but it could be any descendants of the previous Imams as well. Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabirdeen, Pir Shams were not the sons of the Imams but were descendants of the Imam.

Yes Pir's status is never above the Imam. He/She is always a murid of the Imam.

When the Imam appoints another person as the Pir, then the other person functions as the Pir while the Imam does not function as the Pir although he is also the Pir.

mazharshah wrote: In our Tariqa is there any room for honorary pir?

There is no room for a honorary Pir, although one can be appointed Pir by the Imam posthumously (after death) like Pir Subzali.

mazharshah wrote:I have read the history of pirs, pro and post Almout era. My finding is that pro Almout era non of our pirs in any writings claimed their status equal to Prophet!!

What writings are you referring to about per-Alamut Pirs. Provide examples.

mazharshah wrote: I heard ginans like farmans are not reprinted or published by ITREB.
Where is the problem.

Ginans are printed by the ITREB of Canada.

mazharshah wrote: If a respected woman can be appointed as pir, why not a respected woman from Imam's family become Imam?

According to the Imam, his daughter cannot be the Imam.

Interview at:http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/i831200.html

Q. You have two sons. One of them will succeed you, the other one will not. Yet, as a father, you obviously want to treat these two sons as equally as possible. What do you do?

A. Well, during my lifetime, I will treat them absolutely identically. They must have the same education, same exposure, same understanding of their father's work. I would not want to make any differentiation between them, any more than my grandfather made a differentiation between my brother and myself.

Q. And your daughter?

A. Obviously, though my daughter cannot be Imam, there's no reason that she should not be intimately involved with and contribute to Imamate programs, particularly women's activities.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:55 am

Ya Ali Madad.
A good scholarly reply from Kmaherali.
If one is a scholar n has rational sense.In aspects n domain or religion it is clever,cunning n truant use it fool,suppress, excite,intidimate the ignorants n common sense, while greatcsagas,imam,pits with spiritual intellect inspired Faith to common sense,rational sense,intellectuals & genius.
One has identify to which category it wants to tom tom n be in those websites with overdose of religious melodrama(nautanki),
I as a Momin, if MHI orders a new dua or tasbih,I would IMMD discard the present dua n tasbih book for good n erase past contents from my mind if need be.this is ibnul waqt.
Enough of past data is making this forum boring that why few scholars have left.