Das Avatar

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:30 am

[quote]In one private mehmani MSMS mentioned one very devoted murid as being like Pahelaaj. Do you think he meant he was a dear?[quote]

Karim bhai, If Mowla was manifest as Lion in that time than why not Pahelaaj could be in Deers body, I dont know either he was Deer or any other animal, but His farher HARANAKANS name meaning is " destroyer of deer" HARAN means Deer And we all know that he wants to kill his son , so its possible that Phelaaj was Deer, I m just saying because the meaning of his fathers name who wants to kill him.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:09 pm

ismaili103 wrote:Karim bhai, If Mowla was manifest as Lion in that time than why not Pahelaaj could be in Deers body, I dont know either he was Deer or any other animal, but His farher HARANAKANS name meaning is " destroyer of deer" HARAN means Deer And we all know that he wants to kill his son , so its possible that Phelaaj was Deer, I m just saying because the meaning of his fathers name who wants to kill him.

As I said the Ginan mentions the existence of astologers who studied stars and scriptures. Do you think non-humans can do that according to the theory of evolution?

Machh Avatar destroyed the devil Sankh sur to recover the Vedas. Do you think it was for the non-humans?

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:38 pm

Kbhai,
Buf we are talking that period when human beings was not present on earth! Then astrology, allegory, imaginations, aeronomy you think possible? If yes then what needs for that? When animals and other cratures has no mind to think?
Simple is this human beings were started during Narsing Avatar but that human being was not even mature either tbey was in shape of half animal and half human being, that imature humans became mature human being Iin lord Krishna"s time, during Rama avtar human was as not 100% human, may be he was mixed up half monkes and half human! take examples of HANUMAN he was half animals and half human!
about this evolution theory and its times Abu Ali has created a chart and its available in this forum.
The super human being has evolved during Bodha avatar and we are seeing that where human being has reached so far! this is not it but human evolution progress will not end soon, humans still have to go in another planets as our current imam and MSM has predicted many many years ago! that don't surprise that if your kids seep a tea in moon!

forgive spell mistakes.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:24 pm

agakhani wrote:Kbhai,
Buf we are talking that period when human beings was not present on earth! Then astrology, allegory, imaginations, aeronomy you think possible? If yes then what needs for that? When animals and other cratures has no mind to think?.

Abhai,
Peer Sadardeen in his Ginan is telling that Pahelaaj was a human being and not an animal. There were astrologers during that time which proves that it was NOT the period of animals.

Read Swami Yukteshwar's theory of yugas for further explanation. It was Satya Yuga, a period of highest mental development and not a primitive time of animals.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:11 am

Read Swami Yukteshwar's theory of yugas for further explanation. It was Satya Yuga, a period of highest mental development and not a primitive time of animals.

According to Pir, Satya jug or Karta jug was started for about 4 million years ago. According to some researchers in 20th century they found that first human on earth born for about 2 million years ago and that human was not human but a missing link. They research it for about 50 years ago but Pirs wrote about it for about 1000 years ago that first missing link human ( Vaman Avatar ) was born for about 2.2 million years ago.

What did you think swami's theory is better than Pirs theory ?

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:12 am

We have discussions on Swami Yuteshwar"a theory and much more on when human evolvwd on earth in the thread name Who were Hussaini Brahmins? Read that specially the end.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:30 am

ismaili103 wrote: What did you think swami's theory is better than Pirs theory ?

According to the Ginan: Pahelaa Karta Jug Manhe Shahnaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22960, the Karta Yuga was most advanced symbolized by golden paat as opposed to kaljug (least advanced) symbolized by clay paat. The worship and thinking of Karta Yuga was far superior than that of the Kali Yuga. So the Swami's theory is not contradicting the Pir.

If the narrative of Das Avtar was intended to convey the evolutionary theory, then we would have mention of minerals and plants as well and there would be many many stages of evolution not simply ten.

The philosophy of Das Avtar is essentially the ability of the Divine to assume certain forms - human and non-human to fulfil a task or purpose. For example in the case of Machh Avtaar, the Divine (the Imam ) assumed the form of a fish to recover the vedas from the ocean. Once that task was complete, the Imam reverted to human form. It was only a short term temporary manifestation and not for generations to generations.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:34 am

If the narrative of Das Avtar was intended to convey the evolutionary theory, then we would have mention of minerals and plants as well and there would be many many stages of evolution not simply ten.

Late Alwaez Abu Ali has made an evolution chart in which he mentioned the evolution of minerals and plants in karta and treta jug.

the Divine (the Imam ) assumed the form of a fish to recover the vedas from the ocean

Pirs uses many examples to convey message, so do you actually believe that these four vedas which Imam Recover from shankhasur is actually the books. I guess Pir just give us example. And these four vedas meant that shankhasur take away believers and guidance from the earth.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:20 am

ismaili103 wrote:Late Alwaez Abu Ali has made an evolution chart in which he mentioned the evolution of minerals and plants in karta and treta jug..

But that was not part of the Das Avtar. That was Alwaez Abualy's interpretation.

ismaili103 wrote: Pirs uses many examples to convey message, so do you actually believe that these four vedas which Imam Recover from shankhasur is actually the books. I guess Pir just give us example. And these four vedas meant that shankhasur take away believers and guidance from the earth.

So what is the symbolism of the ocean, why under the ocean and not on the surface?

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:50 am

So what is the symbolism of the ocean, why under the ocean and not on the surface?

It can be refer as deepness Or darkness of the deep ocean which mean light of religion disappears and relgion vanishes day by day. the demon takes away guidance far away from the believers and then earth became no place for religion, I can be wrong.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:31 pm

Nobody can be a wrong to put his own thoughts! In this forums so, basically You are absolutely right in your own thinking! as long as you are not forces to believes every one that whatever you thinks is only right and whatever others thinking are totally wrong!
For a example as per Swami Yukteshwar"s theory (in his criticized book (The Holy science ) this a Karta yug while many including our great pirs wrote in their ginans that this is a last Kalyug but many peoples do not believes this! so let him that way and think and accept what our great ginans says about current yuga.
I some what agree with swami's calculations though!! but that calculation has been calculated in divine Years! Not in human years! If some one compares both calculations they will definitely agrees with what our pirs, what other religions literature says, what everybody says, what you and I says i.e. this is a KALYUG. period.
There is always ups and downs! there is always Acceding and descending, in evolution of earth and universe, it may happend in all yugas and it is possible that they may have lefts some good and bad things in yugas. In even Kali Yug we are still find some good peoples this is a good things lefts from previous yugas.......

About Swami Yukteshwar:-
He may be right in few things but many other things he is totally wrong!
One people can be wrong, two, three or may be thousand peoples can be wrong! But off course not all "Awaam" could be wrong and that is the bottom line, keep what you think, I also believe that's way and so many others too. You are not wrong, nobody can be wrong excepts few individuals who trays to imposes their wrong thinking

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:20 am

agakhani wrote:Nobody can be a wrong to put his own thoughts! In this forums so, basically You are absolutely right in your own thinkings! as long as you are not forces to belives every one that whatever you thinks is only right and whatever others thinkins are totally wrong!

Nobody is forcing his views on anybody. You can choose to think or believe whatever you want. We are only here to discuss issues. You are of course free to disagree...

agakhani wrote: For a example as per Swami Yukteshwar"s theory (im his criticised book (Holy science ) this a Karta yog while many including our great pirs wrote in their ginans that this is a last Kalyug but many peoples do not believes this!

Kal Jug means 'present era". When the Pirs wrote the Ginans, it was Kaliyuga, but since then, there has been an evolution and hence we are in the ascending Duapura Yuga.

Prince Sadruddin in one of his speeches http://ismaili.net/sadru/960926.html , said:

"Creation is sacred. Life and nature need not be exploited to instill fear in our hearts. For the Hindus, we have entered the Kali Yuga, the dark age, while St. John's Apocalypse evokes the divine judgement for human sins through his vision of the final destruction of the earth. Though there is cause for apocalyptic rhetoric in the chemical and radioactive pollution of soil and water and the depletion of the ozone layer, the problem with cyclical or terminal Apocalypses is that they deeply imprint the mind with negative and destructive behaviour patterns. One is escapism: "God will judge, but we are the faithful who will escape. And really this isn't our home, anyway, since heaven is our kingdom". There is an "us/them" dilemma here, with a judgement on the others. What we need to do is formulate a language that draws people back into community and responsibility. Apocalyptic visions point the other way."

He is saying that the belief about today being Kali Yuga the dark age is a Hindu belief and not Ismaili. To think of our time as being a dark age can imprint negative and destructive patterns in our thinking. It is not healthy to think that way.

On the other hand if we think of being in Duapura Yuga ascending towards Satya Yuga, it engenders a positive and optimistic outlook.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:00 pm

Why DUS AVTAR? Why not 11 or 14 or 21 Avtars?

In Hindu Dharma it is said, "In Kul Yug there will be only one Avtar i.e NAKLANKI and then at end universe will be wrapped". But in Ismaili Dharma Imam is playing as Naklanki and there are so far 49th Avtars!!

Post by **Admin** » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:29 pm

You are mistaken (as always).

I don't know what Hindu dharam says but I know Ismaili Dharam says Hazrat Ali is the Dasmo Avatar

There is only one Dasmo Avatar and it is Hazrat Ali. All subsequent Imams are the same Dasmo Awtar. Your problem is that you have never accepted the batini aspect of the Ismaili faith as it is so apparent in ALL your posting whatever the thread.

We Ismaili say in our prayers "Ya Ali, Hazar Imam" and we understand that Hazar Imam and Ya Ali is the same. If this is not clear to you or this is not how you pray in congregation if or when you go to JK, then I doubt you are part of the same faith as those who say Ya Ali Ya Hazar Imam.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:02 pm

Admin wrote:You are mistaken (as always).

I don't know what Hindu dharam says but I know Ismaili Dharam says Hazrat Ali is the Dasmo Avatar

There is only one Dasmo Avatar and it is Hazrat Ali. All subsequent Imams are the same Dasmo Awtar. Your problem is that you have never accepted the batini aspect of the Ismaili faith as it is so apparent in ALL your posting whatever the thread.

We Ismaili say in our prayers "Ya Ali, Hazar Imam" and we understand that Hazar Imam and Ya Ali is the same. If this is not clear to you or this is not how you pray in congregation if or when you go to JK, then I doubt you are part of the same faith as those who say Ya Ali Ya Hazar Imam.

Why are you freaking with my question. Twice you deleted my posts. If you can't answer let others do. This is your narrow mindedness. Once again;
Why Dus Avtar and not 12, 13, or 21 Avtars. What is the mystery behind 10 Avtars.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:18 pm

FreeLancer wrote: What is the mystery behind 10 Avtars.

In my opinion 10 Avtars reflect the 10 manifestations that the Imam assumed to bring about major positive changes in history through elimination of the evil forces.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:47 pm

FreeLancer wrote: Why are you freaking with my question. Twice you deleted my posts. If you can't answer let others do. This is your narrow mindedness. Once again;
Why Dus Avtar and not 12, 13, or 21 Avtars. What is the mystery behind 10 Avtars.

What about first explaining why you have also had 12, 13 or 21 Avatar on this Forum?

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:15 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: What is the mystery behind 10 Avtars.
In my opinion 10 Avtars reflect the 10 manifestations that the Imam assumed to bring about major positive changes in history through elimination of the evil forces.

But evil forces are still around here. Look at the sufferings of humanity. We don't see 10th Avtar has turned the tables so far. 70% out of 7.5 billions do not have clean drinking water. More than 50% population hardly have one time food. Killings sky rocketed. Where is peace of mind and peace on earth. Do we really need Avtars?

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:23 pm

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: Why are you freaking with my question. Twice you deleted my posts. If you can't answer let others do. This is your narrow mindedness. Once again;
Why Dus Avtar and not 12, 13, or 21 Avtars. What is the mystery behind 10 Avtars.
What about first explaining why you have also had 12, 13 or 21 Avatar on this Forum?

Universe show will go on for ever. Why to stop at 10th Avtar.
Previous Avtars confined themselves only to subcontinent. Historically these Avtars were not visible in other parts of ancient world. Imam as a 10th Avtar is not recognized in India!!

Post by **Admin** » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:42 pm

In the same way you took 12 avatars on this Forum, different name does not make different entity. As has been explained to you, Imam Ali is Dasmo Avatar and so are all the Imams of this cycle who followed him.

Please do learn a little bit before attempting to discuss any subject and do not feel obliged to post when you have no enough knowledge of the subject. There is even a handwritten affidavit by our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah who writes about Das Avatar and not 12 avatars or 21.

You have complete right to be confused but not to confuse others, at least not on this Forum.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Admin wrote:In the same way you took 12 avatars on this Forum, different name does not make different entity. As has been explained to you, Imam Ali is Dasmo Avatar and so are all the Imams of this cycle who followed him.

Please do learn a little bit before attempting to discuss any subject and do not feel obliged to post when you have no enough knowledge of the subject. There is even a handwritten affidavit by our Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah who writes about Das Avatar and not 12 avatars or 21.

You have complete right to be confused but not to confuse others, at least not on this Forum.

This time you are funny, smile.
IF I have 10/12 Avtars, still I am same one entity. This is what I am trying to explain. Imam is one. Why are we trying to divide him in 10? By gone is by gone. It was Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah who said in one of his Farmans; Forget 9 Avtars and praise Mowla Murtaza Ali.

Daudi Bohra who also claim to be Ismaili do not believe in Dus Avtars?!

Post by **Admin** » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:25 pm

FreeLancer wrote:
Daudi Bohra who also claim to be Ismaili do not believe in Dus Avtars?!

What Daudi Bohora believe is their entire right.

We here are Ismailis from the Nizari lineage, we are not Bohoras.

What Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah testified in court about 10 avatars (not 12 avatars) is of more importance to us than what Daudi Bohoras believe.

And just to remind, there is a Farman that our religion is the same as the one defined by Mowlana Hakim bi Amrillah and Mowlana Alazikrihisalam. No need to remind the declaration of Imam Hakim saying to 10,000 Arabs from his balcony in Cairo: "I am the tenth manifestation of God" (not 12th or 21st)

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:37 pm

Admin wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:
Daudi Bohra who also claim to be Ismaili do not believe in Dus Avtars?!
What Daudi Bohora believe is their entire right.

We here are Ismailis from the Nizari lineage, we are not Bohoras.

What Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah testified in court about 10 avatars (not 12 avatars) is of more importance to us than what Daudi Bohoras believe.

And just to remind, there is a Farman that our religion is the same as the one defined by Mowlana Hakim bi Amrillah and Mowlana Alazikrihisalam. No need to remind the declaration of Imam Hakim saying to 10,000 Arabs from his balcony in Cairo: "I am the tenth manifestation of God" (not 12th or 21st)

Till Imam Mustansirbillah Bohra Ismailis and Nizari Ismailis were one. No where in Bohra Ismaili literature (or before split) I found this FAKE proclamation of Gibbon. On the same two pages where he mentioned 10th incarnation has lashed at Imam Hakim bi Amrillah. He wrote Imam was cruel and unbalanced personality. Do you accept these distortions?
Though non Ismaili writers of that era who were against Fatimid Caliphs have not mentioned about 10th incarnation of Imam Hakim bi Amrillah in their books.
Central Asians Ismailis (followers of same Imam), even do not know about Dus Avtars. They do not know the vocabulary of Muchh, Kuchh, Korumbh and so on. Only less than a million Ismailis of subcontinent believe in Dus Avtar, rest of followers of Hazar Imam do not believe in this philosophy. Dus Avtar philosophy was a strong conversion tool adopted by pirs.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 3:46 pm

FreeLancer wrote: But evil forces are still around here. Look at the sufferings of humanity. We don't see 10th Avtar has turned the tables so far. 70% out of 7.5 billions do not have clean drinking water. More than 50% population hardly have one time food. Killings sky rocketed. Where is peace of mind and peace on earth. Do we really need Avtars?

There is an article in the related thread:

The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=344

called:

Gita Govinda Mahakavya of 13th Century Poet Jayadeva

Read the article and you will get an understanding of each Avtar as a particular manifestation of a Divine intention.

It ends by stating:

Thus, while the general purpose of protecting the good, destroying evil and establishing the law is common to all the incarnations, it is possible to see an emphasis on a particular aspect in each incarnation.

Can we say, then, that each incarnation was a manifestation suitable for a particular time and the conditions then prevailing? This would be only partially true, for the conditions that evoked the different manifestations never totally ceased to be. It would be more correct to understand them as embodiments of an eternal message; an eternal response of God in His unlimited compassion, to the eternal need of His creatures, in the infinite variety of their moods, temperaments and abilities, for guidance in their struggle for communion with Him.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:39 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote: But evil forces are still around here. Look at the sufferings of humanity. We don't see 10th Avtar has turned the tables so far. 70% out of 7.5 billions do not have clean drinking water. More than 50% population hardly have one time food. Killings sky rocketed. Where is peace of mind and peace on earth. Do we really need Avtars?
There is an article in the related thread:

The DARSHAN OF DAS AVTAAR
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... opic&t=344

called:

Gita Govinda Mahakavya of 13th Century Poet Jayadeva

Read the article and you will get an understanding of each Avtar as a particular manifestation of a Divine intention.

It ends by stating:

Thus, while the general purpose of protecting the good, destroying evil and establishing the law is common to all the incarnations, it is possible to see an emphasis on a particular aspect in each incarnation.

Can we say, then, that each incarnation was a manifestation suitable for a particular time and the conditions then prevailing? This would be only partially true, for the conditions that evoked the different manifestations never totally ceased to be. It would be more correct to understand them as embodiments of an eternal message; an eternal response of God in His unlimited compassion, to the eternal need of His creatures, in the infinite variety of their moods, temperaments and abilities, for guidance in their struggle for communion with Him.

The philosophy of Dus Avtar is available mostly in Hindu Dharma, it is not available in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The khoja Ismailis believe Imam is 10th incarnation of Naklanki but Hindus of India do not believe Imam as Naklanki Avtar. In past purpose of Avtar was to protect good and destroy evil. Now a days what is happening on surface of earth. Evil is spreading leap and bounds. Killings is going on of innocent people, rapes are unchecked, people are dying of hunger. Might is right. What Naklanki is doing to stop them. Naklanki says, until both parties won't agree, I shall not be mediator. Who will stop cruelties. Nietzsche wrote." God is dead".

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:50 pm

FreeLancer wrote:Killings is going on of innocent people, rapes are unchecked, people are dying of hunger. Might is right. What Naklanki is doing to stop them. Naklanki says, until both parties won't agree, I shall not be mediator. Who will stop cruelties. Nietzsche wrote." God is dead".

It seems that you have not read the article. There is no point in discussing this further.

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Sun Mar 25, 2018 6:13 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:Killings is going on of innocent people, rapes are unchecked, people are dying of hunger. Might is right. What Naklanki is doing to stop them. Naklanki says, until both parties won't agree, I shall not be mediator. Who will stop cruelties. Nietzsche wrote." God is dead".
It seems that you have not read the article. There is no point in discussing this further.

Thanks.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:29 am

FreeLancer wrote:Why I do not believe in Dus Avtars? The reason is the 3rd Avtar 'Varaha Avtar'. Varaha (Boar) means a male wild pig. In Islam and Judaism a pig is a unholy animal whose meat is haraam, not kosher. How come Khojas Ismailis of subcontinent relate Hazar Imam with an unholy animal?
I hate it, is there any justification for this?

You cannot judge the actions of the Avatars in human terms. Sometimes their actions can appear incomprehensible. For example in his Memoirs, MSMS tells the world that he used to steal books until he was taught a lesson!

FreeLancer · Post by **FreeLancer** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:00 pm

kmaherali wrote:
FreeLancer wrote:Why I do not believe in Dus Avtars? The reason is the 3rd Avtar 'Varaha Avtar'. Varaha (Boar) means a male wild pig. In Islam and Judaism a pig is a unholy animal whose meat is haraam, not kosher. How come Khojas Ismailis of subcontinent relate Hazar Imam with an unholy animal?
I hate it, is there any justification for this?
You cannot judge the actions of the Avatars in human terms. Sometimes their actions can appear incomprehensible. For example in his Memoirs, MSMS tells the world that he used to steal books until he was taught a lesson!

Question is not whether Avtars are not comprehensible, the characters are comprehensible because they are described openly in Hindu Mythology.

Basic question is you, Admin, or any member of this forum believe Imam is VARAHA i.e Boar or Pig Avtar? I do not believe in this. Other question is, 'was that the country of pigs, therefore Imam took the Avtar of a Pig?

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah was honest that's why he described his stealing affair. Not only stealing but he mentioned also about cabaret, beautiful women, and political affairs. Now you will justify," Look Krishan also stole butter from gopies and their clothes while they were bathing in river, why not modern Krishan!!

Post by **Admin** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:46 pm

We Ismailis believe in the Das Avatars, whatever they are because this is what the Imam has confirmed in his handwritten sworn statement and this is what our authorised Pirs have taught to us. Did our Imam confirmed Machh Avatar only because you have no allergies to fish? No he confirmed because it is part of our beliefs.

Are our Das Avatars same as Hindus'? maybe partially. Do we accept all of the stories of Hindus on Das Avatar? certainly NOT. We only accept the parts which have been taught to us from our own sources, not from Hindu sources in the same manners we only accept those parts of Jewish history and their prophets that have been confirmed by our Imams, Pirs and our Prophet PBUH. Do we accept everything Christians says about Jesus? NOT at all. I think by know any reasonably intelligent person would have understand this.