Pir or Mustawda Imam

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:16 am

Let me quote a Farsi proverb for you.

ZAMEEN JUMBOND, NA JUMBOND KHALIFA GUL MUHAMMAD

You wrote," Pir worshiped 4.4 million years then Imam listen to his request."
By the way pir's age was almost 120 years. In your other statement, according to Aradh Granth," Imam created noor i piratan separately trillion years ago and pir worshiped millions of years to see noor". These type of statements are common in Hindu literature and mythology and can be found hundreds years back in Muslim sufi literature also. How will you explain such statements to new generation. How will you prove scientifically?
Pir Sadruddin introduced names of pirs in old Du'a. Can you tell me what was the number of pirs mentioned in first old Du'a and in which century names of other pirs were induced in Du'a, because for few centuries after Pir Sadruddin the jamait kept reciting the names given by pir saheb.
You wrote," SATPANTH WAS IN ANIMALS", What a great idea. You mean all animals, elephants, cows, horses, pigs, rats, cats, camels, so on, there are thousands of types, were all satpanthi Ismailis!!! In one of your post you mentioned, you are not a RE teacher, thanks Lord you are not.
You wrote, Imam removed the names of pirs from Du'a because of persons like me. I am scratching my head; was I born at that time.
You predict that Imam will remove the names of Imams from Du'a in future.
103, Noor i Imamt is same, names dose not make any difference. Names are good for references and historical facts.

I guess its not suitable with you to debate on this, because a person who doesn't believe in Ginans and insulting Pirs and Ginans, can never understand meanings in Great Great Great Great Ginans.

Till 1957 we are reciting name of all Pirs in Dua, number of Pirs were 50 we recites in old dua, ( excluding Imam shah karim ).

I said when there was only animals on the earth and no humans, at that time Imamat was in Animals, read Dasavatar, oh sorry I know you will definitely not read this. And I know you always tWist others quote, its good if you quote right words.

I think you have some serious problem in understanding things I said peoples like you , not you its simple as that. I know you were not born as a mazhar in that era, but in every era there are munafiqs like you.

I know name doesn't matter beacuse NOOR E IMAMAT is one, beacuse NOOR OF IMAM IS ALLAH INDEED, AND ALLAH IS ALWAYS ONE.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:26 am

You wrote," Pir Shams said he is creator". I do not challenge Pir Saheb but
a mother is a creator, a writer is a creator, test tube baby doctor is creator, cloning machine is also creator. Regarding Salman Farsi, he was not in real Jabrael. It is mentioned in a weak hadith that some times he visited Prophet in shape of Jabrael when Prophet was at home with his family members.

Oh so you mean a mother is creator of the universes, a doctor is the creator of the universes etc.

Pir shams clearly wrote in his Ginan that he is creator of the universes. So now what, I know now you will make fun of Ginan and insulting Pirs , but I've a verse from Ginan Which will give you an attack

I know salman farsi is indeed Gabriel and I don't want to listen your nonsense.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:36 am

Please explain this to your uncle AK. He wrote," the noor from Prophet has been transferred in pir". I agree with you that Imam appoints the Pir.

Every active member in this forum except believes that Pir has Noor e Mohammad and it transfer from one pir to another by the order of Imam.

Imam appoints Pir doesn't mean noor e mohd did not transfer into another Pir.

Pirs are not ordinary preachers like Dais, Pirs are holder of Noor e Mohd or Pir is him self Hz Mohammad.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 2:44 am

O My My, 103 are you PK.
Instead of giving me proper answers and explain n argue in descent way you
are down to profanity. Dirty brain always think in that way. If I tell you what khojas do in JK you will disappear. Do not involve in such debate on internet.
Quote name of the book,name of writer and year in which that book was published about the statement of Imam Hakim in which he claimed to be the 10th incarnation.
By the way MSMS's statement about gopies was given for GUPTI (Hindu) jamaits and it had nothing to do with other Muslim followers of Imam at that time.

PK is haram in ismailism, but I don't know about central asian islam , so ASTAGFIRULLAH

I have nothing to do with khojas and I don't care what they do in Jks or any where, every is responsible for his or her own deeds. But I can see something burning in your *** . I can understand it, wo to suna hoga naa CHOR KI DHARI MA TINKA.

I think admin already give you the answer.

And about Guptis, there Iman is million times better than you, I do not have faith in the Faith of Central Asian ismaili, because they stick in 1400 years old philosophy, but I have great faith in Central Asian Guptis Ismaili who live in mountains of pamirs and hindu kush, there Iman is better than all of us who are debating here.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:17 am

junglikhan4 wrote: For your question, please read a post by Mazhar in the same thread page 2, dated March22,15. So far I have not found in Ismaili history any other pir mentioned as Imam Mustawda except Hazrat Hasan. If you know please, post the name.

You did not answer my question. I asked you in what manner was Hazarat Hasan Mustawda Imam? In what respect was entrusted Imam and different from other Pirs?

Post by **Admin** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:00 am

ismaili103 wrote:
You wrote," Pir Shams said he is creator".
.

Actualy even Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin have said the same. "Eh Dhol Boliya Pir Hassan Kabirdin, te Shrasti na Sarjanhar" I am sure KM can find some verses in Pir Satgur Noor also...

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:20 am

Admin wrote:
ismaili103 wrote:
You wrote," Pir Shams said he is creator".
.
Actualy even Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin have said the same. "Eh Dhol Boliya Pir Hassan Kabirdin, te Shrasti na Sarjanhar" I am sure KM can find some verses in Pir Satgur Noor also...

Thats my point, every pir has the same noor e mohd, who is creator of everything.

There are many Pirs like hazrat imam pir hasan, pir amir, pir ali asghar beg etc who are in the list of Pirs , but they donot wrote any Ginan and they donot wrote any verse that I am Creator of the universes, but it doesnt mean they are not noor e mohd, they are indeed Muhaammad who is Creator.

I guess its enough for mazhar, if not then ill put those verses of Ginan here.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:04 am

mazharshah wrote:1. You wrote," piratan is an eternal institution". No sir, piratan is not an eternal institution but it is an internal institution started by our Imams.

In the Ginan: Sab Gat Sami Maaro Bharpur Betthaa http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23110 it is stated:

ejee pahele dha(n)dhukaar maa(n)he nabee muhammed mustaphaa
sohee guru ja(m)pudeep maa(n)he aayaa ek jeeyo..............20

O momins: In the beginning and in the void, Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide (Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

Hence the Nur of Prophet Muhammad was the same nur in Pir Sadardeen who went to preach in India. The Imam appoints the Pir and since Imamat is eternal, Piratan is also eternal.

mazharshah wrote: 2. You wrote," Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis". At the time of Prophet there was no Ismaili community. Hazrat Ismaili was born 100 years after demise of Prophet.

MSMS made the Farman that Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir (in the present cycle) and he then appointed Hazarat Hasan to succeed him. Therefore there was a Sat panth tradition even then. In the Ginan: Trann Trann Ved na Dhiyaawo http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23179 it is stated

ejee aad unnaade aa satpa(n)th saacho
enne pa(n)the chaddee koi na valleeyo paachhojee............11

Since the beginning and indeed the pre-eternity this religion is the true one. Anyone who has travelled upon this path has not returned.

The satpanth has existed since creation.

mazharshah wrote: 3. My question to you; Why MSMS abolished the names of pirs from new Du'a? What was the reason?

I think it is to do with bringing all the different segments and traditions into unity. The notion of Piratan is not emphasized in Nasir Khusraw traditions and hence it can create problems for other Jamats.

But MSMS mentioned in his will that he appointed Shah Karim as the Imam and the Pir of Ismailis.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:53 am

Admin wrote:Actualy even Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin have said the same. "Eh Dhol Boliya Pir Hassan Kabirdin, te Shrasti na Sarjanhar" I am sure KM can find some verses in Pir Satgur Noor also...

In the Ginan: Saacho dhiyaae ne ginaan vichaaro http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4023 , Sayyed Imam Shah states:

Eji Men bolaavun men chalaavun,
ane men khilaavun sab khenn;
me khilaavun ne me pilaavun,
bhaai umat saari jahaan 2

I make people speak and I make people walk and I feed the entire creation. I feed and I provide drink for the entire Mankind (Ummat)

Eji Men aachaari ne men vichaari,
men akal daun aap;
eto maatti kere putale,
tene men japaavun jaap 3

I am the doer and I am the thinker and I give intelligence to all. I enable the idol made of clay to remember (God).

Eji Men kartaa ne men hartaa,
ane avarthi kuchhu na hoy;
ek til rehemat me choddun,
to pathar bole soy 4

I am the doer and I give life, and there is nothing elsewhere. If I shower one bit of mercy, the stones will speak!

In the Ginan: Anand Anand Kariyo rikhisar http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3701 we recite:

Eji Bhanne Pir Sadardin Satgur Bhirmaa;
tame cheto te chetanhaar 7

Peer Sadardeen who is the True Guide and the Creator teaches: be careful and vigilant, o the watchful ones.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:54 am

he makes the lie story for example he wrote some where above that I wrote that pir is superiors than prophet! this is a totally lie from him, I never wrote this kind statment any where this is a made up story by him, He can shows me when and which posts I have wrote this pirs are superiors then prophet?

He has to learn first what is piratan?

piratan is older then even prophet and remember this pir word was there even pir Sadardin, pir Shams. pir Sadardin didn't invent the pir word so stop accusing our great pirs without and proof.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:01 am

Sorry for spelling mistakes above, on vacation will not come everyday in forum section.
Pirs were there even before prophet Mohd so the Ismaili sect..
As per the 10 incarnation theory yes, there was sat panth religion in different creatures besides human beings like birds, animal e.t.c.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:42 pm

agakhani wrote:he makes the lie story for example he wrote some where above that I wrote that pir is superiors than prophet! this is a totally lie from him, I never wrote this kind statment any where this is a made up story by him, He can shows me when and which posts I have wrote this pirs are superiors then prophet?

He has to learn first what is piratan?

piratan is older then even prophet and remember this pir word was there even pir Sadardin, pir Shams. pir Sadardin didn't invent the pir word so stop accusing our great pirs without and proof.

Read your post dated sep3,15.You wrote," as per ismaili perceptive and believes the noor from Prophet has been transferred in pir." where as your bhatrija wrote in post dated sep5,15 that Imam appoints the pir.
Your other blunder in above post," piratan is older than even prophet".
What Admin has to say about this statement of Mr. AK!

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:48 pm

agakhani wrote:Sorry for spelling mistakes above, on vacation will not come everyday in forum section.
Pirs were there even before prophet Mohd so the Ismaili sect..
As per the 10 incarnation theory yes, there was sat panth religion in different creatures besides human beings like birds, animal e.t.c.

Admin.
Your beloved colleague has quoted in above post," as per the 10 incarnation theory yes------". He has not written manifestation but incarnation?
Spank him.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:02 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:Actualy even Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin have said the same. "Eh Dhol Boliya Pir Hassan Kabirdin, te Shrasti na Sarjanhar" I am sure KM can find some verses in Pir Satgur Noor also...
In the Ginan: Saacho dhiyaae ne ginaan vichaaro http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/4023 , Sayyed Imam Shah states:

Eji Men bolaavun men chalaavun,
ane men khilaavun sab khenn;
me khilaavun ne me pilaavun,
bhaai umat saari jahaan 2

I make people speak and I make people walk and I feed the entire creation. I feed and I provide drink for the entire Mankind (Ummat)

Eji Men aachaari ne men vichaari,
men akal daun aap;
eto maatti kere putale,
tene men japaavun jaap 3

I am the doer and I am the thinker and I give intelligence to all. I enable the idol made of clay to remember (God).

Eji Men kartaa ne men hartaa,
ane avarthi kuchhu na hoy;
ek til rehemat me choddun,
to pathar bole soy 4

I am the doer and I give life, and there is nothing elsewhere. If I shower one bit of mercy, the stones will speak!

In the Ginan: Anand Anand Kariyo rikhisar http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3701 we recite:

Eji Bhanne Pir Sadardin Satgur Bhirmaa;
tame cheto te chetanhaar 7

Peer Sadardeen who is the True Guide and the Creator teaches: be careful and vigilant, o the watchful ones.

Dear Km,

Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, where as we are discussing pir and Imam Mutawda. If Imam shah said these words means he considered himself as a pir. Let me give reference of a book named,"DIWAAN I AASHKAR", it is collection of poetry by Sachal Sarmast of Sindh, The book is in Farsi. You will find same kind of declarations as Syed Imam Shah. These kind of things are common in poetry of pesian sufis.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:30 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
Admin wrote:
ismaili103 wrote: .
Actualy even Pir Sadardin and Pir Hassan Kabirdin have said the same. "Eh Dhol Boliya Pir Hassan Kabirdin, te Shrasti na Sarjanhar" I am sure KM can find some verses in Pir Satgur Noor also...
Thats my point, every pir has the same noor e mohd, who is creator of everything.

There are many Pirs like hazrat imam pir hasan, pir amir, pir ali asghar beg etc who are in the list of Pirs , but they donot wrote any Ginan and they donot wrote any verse that I am Creator of the universes, but it doesnt mean they are not noor e mohd, they are indeed Muhaammad who is Creator.

I guess its enough for mazhar, if not then ill put those verses of Ginan here.

Your assertion is that every pir has same noor i Muhammad, in other words you are saying pir has noor of Muhammad and not of Ali. You know this Hadith, "ANNA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID". It proves Muhammad and Ali are same. So pir has twin noor of Muhammad and Ali, or half of Muhammad and half of Ali makes one unit. What about book Pindiyat i Jawanmardi, is it true the book contains noor i MuhammadI and noor i Ali. Pir Sadruddin has said ,

SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:51 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
O My My, 103 are you PK.
Instead of giving me proper answers and explain n argue in descent way you
are down to profanity. Dirty brain always think in that way. If I tell you what khojas do in JK you will disappear. Do not involve in such debate on internet.
Quote name of the book,name of writer and year in which that book was published about the statement of Imam Hakim in which he claimed to be the 10th incarnation.
By the way MSMS's statement about gopies was given for GUPTI (Hindu) jamaits and it had nothing to do with other Muslim followers of Imam at that time.

I have nothing to do with khojas and I don't care what they do in Jks or any where, every is responsible for his or her own deeds. But I can see something burning in your *** . I can understand it, wo to suna hoga naa CHOR KI DHARI MA TINKA.

So this is the attitude, discipline and manners of a so called follower of Imam, I wander have you learn this kind of attitude from ginans!!!!
You have given me 3 stars, I shall give you 4 stars.
Infact Gupti jamait was Hindu, MSMS dealt with them in different way. Near partition MSMS asked them to become openly Mulims and changeto Islamic names. Go in ITREB library in Karachi, read old documents and research. Be in your senses; KAHEI(N) CHOTT NA LAG JAAI AABGINO KO.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:05 pm

kmaherali wrote:
junglikhan4 wrote: For your question, please read a post by Mazhar in the same thread page 2, dated March22,15. So far I have not found in Ismaili history any other pir mentioned as Imam Mustawda except Hazrat Hasan. If you know please, post the name.
You did not answer my question. I asked you in what manner was Hazarat Hasan Mustawda Imam? In what respect was entrusted Imam and different from other Pirs?

The phrase Imam Mustawda was not in use till Fatimid Caliphate. Before Fatimids, Hazrat Hasan was considered as Imam Mustaqqar after Mowla Ali. Even Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq in their sermons mentioned Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustaqqar. In early Ismaili history, Hazrat Hasan is mentioned as Imam Mustaqqar when Ismailis were called SABI'A ( followers of seven).
All Shias including Isna'ashiries, Musta'lean Ismailis, Zaidies, and even Sunnis consider Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustaqqar after Mowla Ali. Also MSMS in Memoirs has mentioned Hazrat Hasan As Imam. This position changed during Fatimid Da'wa. Question arose because Hazrat Hasan surrendered Caliphate to Mu'awiyya therefore he can not be Imam Mustaqqar. With that other question popped up, how to settle position of Hazrat Hasan. After series of discussions amongst Dais, it was decided to create a special rank or position of Imam Mustawda for Hazrat Hasan. Imam Mustawda is NAIB to
Imam Mustaqqar. It is like president and vice president ( just for understanding ). This is the only exceptional case in Ismaili history. There is no other Imam Mustawda recorded in Ismaili history except Hazrat Hasan.
POSITION OF IMAM MUSTAWDA IS HIGHER THAN PIR IN ISMAILI TERMINOLOGY. Imam mustawda can carry work any where , in any part of the world, but pir's responsibilities fall in particular or special territories.
Like pir Sadruddin and other pirs after him were confined to jumpudwep by order of Imam and not for central Asia or middle east and beyond.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:51 pm

Admin wrote:
mazharshah wrote: Quote name of the book,name of writer and year in which that book was published about the statement of Imam Hakim in which he claimed to be the 10th incarnation.
ismaili103 wrote 3 times "manifestation" which you yourself have quoted, yet you twist the words he has used.

Not Incarnation but Manifestation. You keep misrepresenting the posts of other people. This is just so disgusting. Don't you have any integrity or self respect left?

Imam does not "claim" to be this or that. He DECLARED to be the 10th Manifestation.

Gibbon says the Imam was considered a madman and tyran for having declared this. "He (Imam Hakim) ... styled himself the visible image of the Most High God, who, after nine apparitions on earth, was at length manifest in his royal person. At the name of Hakem, the lord of the living and the dead, every knee was bent in religious adoration..." continue reading. Because we are Ismailis, our knees are bent in the name of our present Imam who possess the same Light as Mowlana Hakim, Our Lord.

You have already been given on one of the numerous aliases you use, the name and the reference of the books, why do you ask again and again?

It is Edward Gibbon, in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol 6 page 254 and in Philip Aziz in les Sectes de l'Islam. I am sure in many more, not to mention Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's own handwritten affidavit in Court on Das Avatar being the tenet of faith for Ismailis: http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/N ... 1980-1.pdf

You desperately post here that you will continue asking questions many times up to the time people reply. But you have to consider that they do not reply because a) it has already been replied somewhere in this Forum and you are just not interested in reading or b) they do not want to reply to your questions because they know you have no idea of quantum physics so it is useless to discuss this subject with you.

Please consider this and stop flooding the Forum with the same again and again. Thanks you.

I would also appreciate that you do not insult the Guptis Ismailis by calling them Hindus. if you have no clue of what a Gupti Ismaili is, just abstain from ridiculing yourself in public.

First let me clear what you have about me in your mind. As a Muslim I respect Quran. As an Ismaili I respect pirs and ginans. I respect all Ismaili jamaits around the globe. Above all I obey the farmans of present Imam. I follow his guidance written or verbal through reliable source. I am trying to discuss in friendly environment but some of participants are trying to show their muscle and write dirty things of which I am not used to. If they have been in front of me, I think story should have been different. Who am I what is my origin I have not declared. Now let us talk about the subject. There are three versions of DAS AVTAAR ginans. Which one is correct? In Hindu literature AVTAAR MEANS INCARNATION, BUT FROM ISLAMIC POINT OF VIEW IT IS EXPLAINED AS MAZHAR OR MANIFESTATION OR LIGHT. Yes I believe Imam is Mazhar of Allah but not Allah himself. That is what Ismaili Ta'lim is, which Imam has explained and given guidance. That is what was explained in 1975 conference. It has nothing to do with late Wazir Qasim Ali or as you have taunting words for him Ja'far Bhai. If late Qasim Ali had gone out of way Imam is all powerful and should have fired him. It was with the order of Imam that KIM WAS RESTRICTED ( I hate to use word banned ). That was order of Imam.
Some one accept it or reject it , it has nothing to do with me. I follow what my Imam says.
Regarding Edward Gibbon's book, I shall read it and then will give my comments.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:26 pm

mazharshah wrote: Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, where as we are discussing pir and Imam Mutawda. If Imam shah said these words means he considered himself as a pir. Let me give reference of a book named,"DIWAAN I AASHKAR", it is collection of poetry by Sachal Sarmast of Sindh, The book is in Farsi. You will find same kind of declarations as Syed Imam Shah. These kind of things are common in poetry of pesian sufis.

Yes Sayyed Imam Shah was not a Pir but nevertheless a very exalted soul. His compositions have been accepted by Imams as ginans since centuries, so you must consider whatever he says as authoritative teachings on behalf of the Imam of the time.

You may want to read about Sayyed Imam Shah at:
http://www.ismaili.net/hero/hero25.html

Below is the highlight of his life when he had the physical Deedar of the Imam.

On hearing the appointment of Pir Tajdeen in succession to Pir Hasan Kabir-ud-din, Syed Imam-ud-din was visibly effected, frustration and disappointment showing in his face. The Imam, seeing his reaction, consoled him and re-assured him that, though Piratan was not his destiny yet, the Imam was pleased to bestow the Mystic Great Name on him and ordered him to continue his mission on the Gujrat Coast.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:34 pm

mazharshah wrote:Your assertion is that every pir has same noor i Muhammad, in other words you are saying pir has noor of Muhammad and not of Ali. You know this Hadith, "ANNA WA ALIYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID". It proves Muhammad and Ali are same. So pir has twin noor of Muhammad and Ali, or half of Muhammad and half of Ali makes one unit. What about book Pindiyat i Jawanmardi, is it true the book contains noor i MuhammadI and noor i Ali. Pir Sadruddin has said ,

SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY.

At all times the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir. Hence he is the Mazhar of the Essence. The Essence also contains the Nur of Piratan. Hence at all time his Nur is also equivalent of the Nur of the Pir. So just as the Nur of Ali and Muhammad were equal, similarly the Nur of Sri Islam Shah and the Nur of Pir Sadardeen were equal. Nabi Muhammad was the Pir first, his role as the Prophet of Mankind was incidental.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:45 pm

So this is the attitude, discipline and manners of a so called follower of Imam, I wander have you learn this kind of attitude from ginans!!!!
You have given me 3 stars, I shall give you 4 stars.
Infact Gupti jamait was Hindu, MSMS dealt with them in different way. Near partition MSMS asked them to become openly Mulims and changeto Islamic names. Go in ITREB library in Karachi, read old documents and research. Be in your senses; KAHEI(N) CHOTT NA LAG JAAI AABGINO KO.

Jaisi bimari waisa ilaj
Ghee seedhi ungli se naa nikle to ugli teyri krni parti hai

Gupti ismailies were never a hindu, they perform hindu rituals because they are leaving in between fundamentalist hindus. And gupti ismailies are not only found in india but they are also in Iran, central Asia and China near uighur county.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:47 pm

mazharshah wrote:It was with the order of Imam that KIM WAS RESTRICTED

Please give your source. We know that the present Imam has said Farman of past Imams are my Farmans. So since you are contradicting the Imam, you better come with a stronger source.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:50 pm

So this is the attitude, discipline and manners of a so called follower of Imam, I wander have you learn this kind of attitude from ginans!!!!

These kind of Behaviour I learnt from fake quran, you know better fake quran is famous for creating instability in world like jihaad. On the other hand if I follow the teachings of ALL THE GINANS BY PIR, I WILL NOT HERE TO DEBATE WITH YOU, BECAUSE TEACHING IS GINAN WILL MAKE ME A PIOUS GUY.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 11:50 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Gupti ismailies were never a hindu, they perform hindu rituals because they are leaving in between fundamentalist hindus. And gupti ismailies are not only found in india but they are also in Iran, central Asia and China near uighur county.

Of course we have also Arab and Persian Ismailis who practice Taquiyah to remain alive in hostile environment and therefore outwardly they may be seen as practicing shariah of the Sunnis or Ithnashri but internally Imam knows that hey do this only to protect their families, they are Guptis also.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:02 am

Admin wrote:
mazharshah wrote:It was with the order of Imam that KIM WAS RESTRICTED
Please give your source. We know that the present Imam has said Farman of past Imams are my Farmans. So since you are contradicting the Imam, you better come with a stronger source.

It is better to quote the Farman itself:

"I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own." (Dar es Salaam, 7th Dec, 1961)

Post by **Admin** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:10 am

kmaherali wrote:It is better to quote the Farman itself:

"I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own." (Dar es Salaam, 7th Dec, 1961)

Thanks. I was looking for that Farman but for the moment I have some restrictions and do not have access to them.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:00 am

mazharshah wrote:The phrase Imam Mustawda was not in use till Fatimid Caliphate. Before Fatimids, Hazrat Hasan was considered as Imam Mustaqqar after Mowla Ali. Even Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq in their sermons mentioned Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustaqqar. In early Ismaili history, Hazrat Hasan is mentioned as Imam Mustaqqar when Ismailis were called SABI'A ( followers of seven)..

There is no need to go back to sources more than 1000 years back when we have a clear Farman of MSMS that Hazarat Hasan was NEVER Imam Mustaqqar. I will quote the Farman again. Get into your head once and for all.

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

mazharshah wrote: Imam Mustawda is NAIB to
Imam Mustaqqar. It is like president and vice president ( just for understanding ). This is the only exceptional case in Ismaili history. There is no other Imam Mustawda recorded in Ismaili history except Hazrat Hasan.
POSITION OF IMAM MUSTAWDA IS HIGHER THAN PIR IN ISMAILI TERMINOLOGY. Imam mustawda can carry work any where , in any part of the world, but pir's responsibilities fall in particular or special territories.
Like pir Sadruddin and other pirs after him were confined to jumpudwep by order of Imam and not for central Asia or middle east and beyond.

So explain, how Hazarat Hasan was different than other Pirs. What was so special about him that was different than other Pirs?

Our Present Imam is also the Pir and his responsiblity extends to all Jamats all over the world.

If you read the history of the Pirs, they travelled extensively and spread the Dawa. The history of the Pirs is given at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... abul+hasan

For example Pir Shams travelled extensively.

Pi'r Shamsuddi'n bin Pi'r Sala'huddi'n was born in Sabzwa'r in 639 A.H. during the Ima'mat of Ima'm Ala'uddi'n Mohammed. Like father like son: he too travelled with his father wherever he went. He was very fond of travelling. He travelled to Afghanistan, Arabia, Bangla Desh, Burma, China, Ceylon, Egypt, India, Iran, Iraq, Kashmir, Malaya, Tibet, Russia, Turkey and many other places. He went to hajj several times. He was popularly called as Haji Ba'ba'Qalander, Shams Iraqi, Shams Chot, Shams Darya, Shah Shams etc.

During the one hundred and eighteen years of his life Pi'r Shams converted over a half million disciples in many countries.107

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:09 am

mazharshah wrote:Your above statement is more complex than the complex farman of Imam. I could not understood what you want to explain.
Sir, when Imam is Natiq, Pir is Samit. Interpreter of faith is Imam. In JK, I heard only missionary saheb or chairman of ITREB explaining farman.
You wrote," Farmans and Ginans are same". Do you consider Sayyedah Imam
Begum's ginans are farman? Please explain.

The concept of Imam as Natiq and Pir as Samit are zaheri concepts. They do not have much significance in our Tariqa. I have never heard a Farman when the Imam says his the Natiq.

Remember our faith did not start 1400 years ago. It has existed since creation. Hence from the batin Imam is always above every other concepts.Imamat and Piratan existed before the Natiq and Asas were invented.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:51 pm

Quote="Kmaherali"

Below is the highlight of his life when he had the physical Deedar of the Imam.

On hearing the appointment of Pir Tajdeen in succession to Pir Hasan Kabir-ud-din, Syed Imam-ud-din was visibly effected, frustration and disappointment showing in his face. The Imam, seeing his reaction, consoled him and re-assured him that, though Piratan was not his destiny yet, the Imam was pleased to bestow the Mystic Great Name on him and ordered him to continue his mission on the Gujrat Coast.[/quote]

Pir Hasan Kabiruddin married 7 times and had 18 sons ans one daughter but mostly left Ismaili Tariqa and started their own Religious enterprises in subcontinent. Were they weak in their iman or every one wanted piratan? In fact Syed Imam Shah was angry and sad because of not getting Piratan. Mostly ginans which are recited in JK'S today were written in life time of his father. There is no proper research that after returning from Iran he stayed on ismaili Tariqa as I have read in some articles.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:03 pm

Yes he was stayed on Ismaili sect till his last breath of his life, he didn't start Imamshahi sect but after his death his son Syed Nur Mohammad shah had started new sect and gave name on his father Imamshahi sect.
Syed Nur MohdShah was drowned out from Ismaili sect by imam of that time because he started to collect DASOND money from the jamats.
You are just wrote your thinking above but I have many proof to proven my above statements, no Bologna here but a true facts here...