Pir or Mustawda Imam

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:42 pm

Those People are disaster for Ismailism who thinks that Ginan is the tool to convert People.

Post by **Admin** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:18 pm

Yes you are right. Some people come here just repeating the same sentences, whatever the discussion. They feel that a sentence written in Arabic is worth ten sentences written in Gujarati.

They confuse the 12 Pirs preachers of the 12 Jazirah with the "Pir" which is today our Shah Karim, they feel maybe Shah Karim, our present Pir, should be converting and writing ginans... They feel that Hazar Imam as Pir should be confined to a small territory where he should only write some ginans.

How are you going to discuss quantum physics with a new born who is trying to learn the Ismaili alphabet and who interrupt all conversations on quantum physics with the same old question on what come first, the y or the y?

The subject of Piratan, Hujjat ul Imam (see Pandiyat Jawanmardi's definitions) and Imam Mustawda is a fascinating field of discoveries and intellectual exchanges. I suggest the discussion should continues without regards to those who are here only to digress and distract us.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:47 am

mazharshah wrote: Please explain, Who is superior, Imam mustawda or Pir. In Ismaili history only Hazrat Hasan is recorded as Imam Mustawda. The territory of Imam Mustawda is all over on earth but pir is confined to single territory for preaching given by Imam.

With reference to Hazarat Hasan, can you explain what Imam Mustawda means and how he was Imam Mustawda.

junglikhan4 · Post by **junglikhan4** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:40 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote: Please explain, Who is superior, Imam mustawda or Pir. In Ismaili history only Hazrat Hasan is recorded as Imam Mustawda. The territory of Imam Mustawda is all over on earth but pir is confined to single territory for preaching given by Imam.
With reference to Hazarat Hasan, can you explain what Imam Mustawda means and how he was Imam Mustawda.

To Km,

For your question, please read a post by Mazhar in the same thread page 2, dated March22,15. So far I have not found in Ismaili history any other pir mentioned as Imam Mustawda except Hazrat Hasan. If you know please, post the name.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 1:19 pm

Please consolidate your posts under one name, which ever you choose.

There is no need of using various alias, it does not serve any purpose except to discredit you.

I hope you wil consider this advise given in good faith for your own benefit. Thanks you.

Admin

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:40 pm

Mazhar, Mazhar Shah, Junglikhan are same, whom do you make fool Mr.Bahurupi?
aapki pol khul chuki hai, khwaish yeh hai ki tum muje aour pol kulne ae majboor na kare. Mr.Mazhar.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:53 pm

Mazhar, Mazhar Shah, Junglikhan are same, whom do you make fool Mr.Bahurupi?
aapki pol khul chuki hai, khwaish yeh hai ki tum muje aour pol kulne ae majboor na kare. Mr.Mazhar.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:29 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:Piratan is not superior than Risalat. Pirs are not above Prophet Muhammad in authority. Hazar Imam said," Du'a is foundation of our Tariqa", and there is no mention of pirs in our Du'a. Hazar Imam never said, our pirs ( Pir Shams, Pir
Sadruddin, Pir Hasan Kabiruddin ) are superior or greater than Prophet.
Piratan is an eternal institution and prophethood is limited in time. Therefore Piratan is more enduring. Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis, so the question of superiority does not arise.

To Km,

1. You wrote," piratan is an eternal institution". No sir, piratan is not an eternal institution but it is an internal institution started by our Imams.

2. You wrote," Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis". At the time of Prophet there was no Ismaili community. Hazrat Ismaili was born 100 years after demise of Prophet.

3. My question to you; Why MSMS abolished the names of pirs from new Du'a? What was the reason?

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 6:46 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote: You wrote," At present MHI is also pir. He travels all over the world to perform his role". No doubt he is pir also, but he never converted any person to Ismailism and never composed any ginans being as a pir or wrote any religious treatise.
Farmans and Ginans are the same and the Imam ( the present Pir) makes complex Farmans and gives comprehensive guidance on all matters. That is the role of the Pir. Pir performs the role of the guide and the interpretor of faith.

To Km,

Your above statement is more complex than the complex farman of Imam. I could not understood what you want to explain.
Sir, when Imam is Natiq, Pir is Samit. Interpreter of faith is Imam. In JK, I heard only missionary saheb or chairman of ITREB explaining farman.
You wrote," Farmans and Ginans are same". Do you consider Sayyedah Imam
Begum's ginans are farman? Please explain.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:14 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
To Km,

You wrote," At present MHI is also pir. He travels all over the world to perform his role". No doubt he is pir also, but he never converted any person to Ismailism and never composed any ginans being as a pir or wrote any religious treatise.
In our tariqa, making firman is resposibility of Pir, when jamat was in Indian subcontinent so Pir makes the firman in Indian languages which are known as Ginans, now english is international language so Pir( hazir Imam) makes farman in english.

I agreed with Karim bhai Farmans and Ginans are same and I want to add one more Quran, three= one.

On the other hand, there is no different boetween Pir and Prophet. Prophethood ends on Prophet muhammad but it doesnot mean prophet muhammad leave the earth and Sets his residence in paradise, according to our tariqa noor of Muhammad trasfered to Pir Hazrat Hassan.

To Imaili103,

Your assertion is wrong. It is the responsibility of Imam to make farman and not pir. Please refer to farman of MSMS. It is not the question of language either Arabic, English, Urdu or Gujrati. It is up to Imam what language he chooses.
Your this assertion is also wrong that Farman and Ginans are same. 103, do you consider Sayyedah Imam Begum's ginans equal to farmans or Nasir Khusru's poetry as farmans.
Your this assertion is also wrong that there is no difference between pir and Prophet. Pir Shams or Pir Sadruddin or any other pir were not Rasul, or Nabi or received revelations from Allah through Jibrael. But pirs have humbly said,
SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY
MOMIN AAEI(N) BAHISHT LAHINDA.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:48 pm

agakhani wrote:
his is why I always say that you should have some knowledge of the subject before discussing it.

So again, read few books and try to understand the subject before posting for the sake of posting. it will just ensure that you do not loose credibility.
If you think pir is not the superior than Prophets then he is equal to prophet because as per Ismaili perceptive and believes the noor from prophet has been transferred in pir, which Ismail103 explained beautifully.

There is no difference between ginans and faramans for us!

I agree with Admin that "you have to study and get some knowledge first" the fundamental beliefs of Ismaili sect ; What is piratan and what is Imamat? go ahead study that and then after raise any question.[

To Ak,

I don't know who is explaining beautifully or dreadfully.
you wrote," If pir is nor superior than he is equal to Prophet". I wander some time back you people said pirs are above prophets and now you have stepped down that pir is equal to prophet. Your other blunder is that you wrote," the noor from prophet transferred in pir", in other words Prophet Muhammad has to be present to appoint pir. Now, how you will fit this theory as Imam and pir are same today. Thanks for your advice to read books, what can I say!!! PITTU(N) SIR KO YA ROU(N) JIGAR KO MAI(N).

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:17 pm

ismaili103 wrote:Those People are disaster for Ismailism who thinks that Ginan is the tool to convert People.

To 103,

Can you explain what other tools pir Sadruddin used in converting Hindus of his time. At that time Bhajans were common and popular( till today). Pir studied
Hinduism, mythology, Veds, Puranas Ramayan , Maha Bharat including Gita and other literature and woven that with Ismaili literature beautifully and intelligently for conversion. Pir brain washed whom he converted by assuring them that 10th avtaar is reincarnated as Ali. In ginans mostly literature is borrowed from Hinduism and Hindu terminologies are used. To days khojas and mominas are Karishma of Pir Sadruddin. Regarding ginans your uncle AK has admitted that they are Bhajans.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:43 pm

Friends,
Ponder on these questions and answer intellectually.
1. Disobeying of farman is sin but disobeying of ginan is makruh.
2. When Imamat and Piratan are toghether, Imam is Natiq and Pir is Samit.
3. Farman is an order where as ginan is not.
4. Farmans keep changing, where as ginans are rigid. You can not change stories mentioned in ginans, like; Pandwas, Drupadi, Raja Harish Chandra or Tara Rani and so on.
5. Farmans have no raga, where as ginans have raga ( 42 sur bhankhiya)

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:54 pm

Admin wrote:Please consolidate your posts under one name, which ever you choose.

There is no need of using various alias, it does not serve any purpose except to discredit you.

I hope you wil consider this advise given in good faith for your own benefit. Thanks you.

Admin

Admin.

This time I did on purpose to check some thing. Well I achieved what I wanted. By the way if you allot same pass words mischief will happen again.
Thanks.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:25 pm

Please stop! What I hate the most is people who take the visitors of this Forum to be dumb people.

So again last polite warning, choose whatever name you want to post with and stick to that name. Let me know so that I can delete all other duplicate accounts.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:26 pm

Admin wrote:Yes you are right. Some people come here just repeating the same sentences, whatever the discussion. They feel that a sentence written in Arabic is worth ten sentences written in Gujarati.

They confuse the 12 Pirs preachers of the 12 Jazirah with the "Pir" which is today our Shah Karim, they feel maybe Shah Karim, our present Pir, should be converting and writing ginans... They feel that Hazar Imam as Pir should be confined to a small territory where he should only write some ginans.

How are you going to discuss quantum physics with a new born who is trying to learn the Ismaili alphabet and who interrupt all conversations on quantum physics with the same old question on what come first, the y or the y?

The subject of Piratan, Hujjat ul Imam (see Pandiyat Jawanmardi's definitions) and Imam Mustawda is a fascinating field of discoveries and intellectual exchanges. I suggest the discussion should continues without regards to those who are here only to digress and distract us.

I do not understand why some people are freaked by usage of Arabic words
or phrases. This topic is not for comparison of Arabic vs Gujrati. The Arabic words or phrases so far I have used are from Ismaili literature and ginans.
My assertion is Farmans are superior and mahaan than ginans. Ginans are
36 varan and 42 sur bhankhia. Ginans have raga but Farmans have no raga.
No one ever heard HI saying, I am making this farman as an Imam or making this farman as pir in ginan format. When Imamat and Piratan is one, then Imam is NATIQ and Pir is SAMIT. You are well versed in ginans, let me ask you the question which I have already asked. Do you consider Imam Begum's ginans as farmans.
Ismailism is simple, plain and easy going dharam, it has nothing to do with complicated quantum physics.
After Almout, 12 jazirah doctrine was evaporated. Pir Sadruddin was confined to Jumpudwep territory not central Asia or middle east.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 9:32 pm

Simple is the word. There is no hanky panky in our Faith.

Imam said Ginan and farmans are the same (he did not say equal) so what is your problem with ginans?

And how long are you going to insult those who understand the ginans. And though this is not the place for this discussion, we Ismailis have Farmans commanding us to keep them for generations to come and children who are yest to be born (even your children if you are Ismaili).

So as I said, you have the habit of bringing the same topics all over the Forum with the same sentences, at least change some words in your sentence to make them look like different propaganda.

So I would advise you to abstain from writing anything here which is repetitive or out of sync.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:41 am

To Km,

1. You wrote," piratan is an eternal institution". No sir, piratan is not an eternal institution but it is an internal institution started by our Imams.

2. You wrote," Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis". At the time of Prophet there was no Ismaili community. Hazrat Ismaili was born 100 years after demise of Prophet.

3. My question to you; Why MSMS abolished the names of pirs from new Du'a? What was the reason?

1) Piratan is an eternal institution and it did not started by our Imam for 1400 years. Ginans clearly stated that Pir Hassan Kabiruddin wrote that I (Pir ) worshipped Imam for 4.4 million years than atlast Mowla listen my request..
Pir in Aradh Granth had said Imam created seperated Noor e Piratan from him for about trillions or years ago and then Pir worshipped Imam for about Millions of years and atlast Imam shown his noor to Pir.

2) In our old dua, which was read by our ancestors for centuries had cleary stated Pir hazrat Mohammad mustafa s.a as our first Pir...but did you know( ohh you definitely don't know) that Mohammad was even not the first Pir, Piratan is eternal and its from the origin and even before origin. Nabi Mohammad is FIRST PIR OF KAGUG, but before him Noor e Mohammad or Noor e Piratan was in HZ ABDULLAH, HZ MUSA, HZ ISA, HZ IBRAHIM, HZ ADAM ETC.. Ismaili community is just a name, we ( ismailies ) are always on the earth even When there were no humans, the SATPANTH WAS IN ANIMALS AND OTHER ORGANISM.

3) Imam know the best why Imam remove names of Pir frm old dua, but one reason I know is because of people like you who are always complaining about piratan and who did not have any faith on pirs.

JEVO TAMARO IMAN , TEVI SAHEBJI NI VACHA.

THAT DAY IS NEAR WHEN IMAM WILL REMOVES NAME OF IMAM ,BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL COMPLAINING WHY WE ARE RECITING NAME OF THE IMAMS IN DUA.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:52 am

To Imaili103,

Your assertion is wrong. It is the responsibility of Imam to make farman and not pir. Please refer to farman of MSMS. It is not the question of language either Arabic, English, Urdu or Gujrati. It is up to Imam what language he chooses.
Your this assertion is also wrong that Farman and Ginans are same. 103, do you consider Sayyedah Imam Begum's ginans equal to farmans or Nasir Khusru's poetry as farmans.
Your this assertion is also wrong that there is no difference between pir and Prophet. Pir Shams or Pir Sadruddin or any other pir were not Rasul, or Nabi or received revelations from Allah through Jibrael. But pirs have humbly said,
SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY
MOMIN AAEI(N) BAHISHT LAHINDA.

You are always wrong, Imam never makes firman , its the responsibility of Pir,
Pir always make firman to guide us, thats why Hazir Imam as a Pir makes firman and thats why he uses word like inshallah etc.

Ginan is always a Ginan, either its written by Pir or Syed and yes Ginan is equal to firman either its by syed or Pir.

Pir shams said I am the creator, This verse from Ginan is everything for me and I know its frustrating for you non ismailies.

And Jibrael or Gabriel who? I guess he is salman farsi , no jibrael is definitely hz salman farsi or narad muni ( narayan narayan ) or gabriel etc

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 2:55 am

I don't know who is explaining beautifully or dreadfully.
you wrote," If pir is nor superior than he is equal to Prophet". I wander some time back you people said pirs are above prophets and now you have stepped down that pir is equal to prophet. Your other blunder is that you wrote," the noor from prophet transferred in pir", in other words Prophet Muhammad has to be present to appoint pir. Now, how you will fit this theory as Imam and pir are same today. Thanks for your advice to read books, what can I say!!! PITTU(N) SIR KO YA ROU(N) JIGAR KO MAI(N).

You are again wrong, PIR NEVER APPOINTS ANOTHER PIR, BUT ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF IMAM, so

IMAM APPOINTS IMAM
IMAM APPOINTS PIR
PIR DO NOT APPOINTS PIRS

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:12 am

Can you explain what other tools pir Sadruddin used in converting Hindus of his time. At that time Bhajans were common and popular( till today). Pir studied
Hinduism, mythology, Veds, Puranas Ramayan , Maha Bharat including Gita and other literature and woven that with Ismaili literature beautifully and intelligently for conversion. Pir brain washed whom he converted by assuring them that 10th avtaar is reincarnated as Ali. In ginans mostly literature is borrowed from Hinduism and Hindu terminologies are used. To days khojas and mominas are Karishma of Pir Sadruddin. Regarding ginans your uncle AK has admitted that they are Bhajans.

When your mentor And you cant give answers you keep blaming Ginans and degrade Ginans, Quran was borrowed from bible, torah,and even there are matching verses in Quran and geeta. Note. Here I am talking about your fke usmni Quran not the real Quran which is Ginans and firmans and which give us knowledge time to time in each era.

Pir did not brain washed by saying that Imam is 10th menifestation( not incarnation ) , Imam is indeed 10th Menifestation, Imam Hakim bi Amrallah had said in front of 100% arabic jamat that he is 10 menifestation of Allah.

Imam sultan mohd shah had also said In the avatar of krishna, i palyed here in mathura with gopis.

Don't know about the Ginans , but Fake Quran definitely brain washed poor one billion muslims, and look now they are killing there own peoples JIHAAD NAAM TO SUNA HOGA....HAHAHAHHA Your central asian peoples are also same like these jihadis, i had seen with my eyes they are creating mess in jamat khanas in karachi , I had seen with my eyes they were using abusive languages in between JK karwai, I had seen with my eyes they Were using GUTKAAS, PAAN AND MAAWA IN JKs. And above all I had seen with my eyes one 15 years old your kid is hitting very hard to a 65 years old khoja uncle , you know why because that uncle is giving him some advice on jks ethics. Look at yourself the fake quranic peeps( or poops )

Post by **Admin** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:56 am

To reply to the question of Ginans by Imam Begum, Imam has the unfettered prerogative to declare any particular poem or proverb or citation or expression or book as "Farman" when he endorse it as Farman. If he endorse it as Ginan, it becomes ginan, if he endorse it as garbage, it becomes garbage.

the Ginans of Seyyeda Imam Begum and Seyyed Imam Shah were endorsed by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah as "Ginans" and so they are to be considered as Ginans by Ismailis and all Farmans about Ginans apply to them equality now.

The discussion in this thread is not about Quran, it is about Pir and Imam Mustawda.

So this comment should be considered as a parenthesis and all should come back to the subject of this thread. Thanks

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:16 pm

Admin wrote:Simple is the word. There is no hanky panky in our Faith.

Imam said Ginan and farmans are the same (he did not say equal) so what is your problem with ginans?

And how long are you going to insult those who understand the ginans. And though this is not the place for this discussion, we Ismailis have Farmans commanding us to keep them for generations to come and children who are yest to be born (even your children if you are Ismaili).

So as I said, you have the habit of bringing the same topics all over the Forum with the same sentences, at least change some words in your sentence to make them look like different propaganda.

So I would advise you to abstain from writing anything here which is repetitive or out of sync.

No doubt there is no hanky panky in our faith. Our faith is simple, plain and smooth going, But there are some questions need to be sorted out. Can you explain what is the difference in words 'same' and 'equal' as you wrote.
The name of this site is Ismaili Heritage so each member has right to ask questions and understand Ismaili Heritage. If you don't like this way, change the name of site. I suggest, Ismaili Ginani Heritage. You people should have some patience to answer the questions.
If three persons are arguing and answering me on same subject, my reply will be to them almost same in 3 different posts and sentences and language will be almost same, so what is wrong with that. Do you want me to answer Km in Shakespearean English, Ak in Milton era English and 103 in Victorian age English!
Also I have noted that you people are selective in choosing statements which you like or which are easy to reply, omitting crucial questions. When I am not getting answers for those, I have to repeat the questions in other way.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:26 pm

Admin wrote:To reply to the question of Ginans by Imam Begum, Imam has the unfettered prerogative to declare any particular poem or proverb or citation or expression or book as "Farman" when he endorse it as Farman. If he endorse it as Ginan, it becomes ginan, if he endorse it as garbage, it becomes garbage.

the Ginans of Seyyeda Imam Begum and Seyyed Imam Shah were endorsed by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah as "Ginans" and so they are to be considered as Ginans by Ismailis and all Farmans about Ginans apply to them equality now.

The discussion in this thread is not about Quran, it is about Pir and Imam Mustawda.

So this comment should be considered as a parenthesis and all should come back to the subject of this thread. Thanks

You wrote," ginans of Seyyeda Imam Begum and Seyyed Imam Shah were endorsed by MSMS". Will you please quote the farman in this regard with date and year and in which book. Thanks.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:22 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
To Km,

1. You wrote," piratan is an eternal institution". No sir, piratan is not an eternal institution but it is an internal institution started by our Imams.

2. You wrote," Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis". At the time of Prophet there was no Ismaili community. Hazrat Ismaili was born 100 years after demise of Prophet.

3. My question to you; Why MSMS abolished the names of pirs from new Du'a? What was the reason?
1) Piratan is an eternal institution and it did not started by our Imam for 1400 years. Ginans clearly stated that Pir Hassan Kabiruddin wrote that I (Pir ) worshipped Imam for 4.4 million years than atlast Mowla listen my request..
Pir in Aradh Granth had said Imam created seperated Noor e Piratan from him for about trillions or years ago and then Pir worshipped Imam for about Millions of years and atlast Imam shown his noor to Pir.

2) In our old dua, which was read by our ancestors for centuries had cleary stated Pir hazrat Mohammad mustafa s.a as our first Pir...but did you know( ohh you definitely don't know) that Mohammad was even not the first Pir, Piratan is eternal and its from the origin and even before origin. Nabi Mohammad is FIRST PIR OF KAGUG, but before him Noor e Mohammad or Noor e Piratan was in HZ ABDULLAH, HZ MUSA, HZ ISA, HZ IBRAHIM, HZ ADAM ETC.. Ismaili community is just a name, we ( ismailies ) are always on the earth even When there were no humans, the SATPANTH WAS IN ANIMALS AND OTHER ORGANISM.

3) Imam know the best why Imam remove names of Pir frm old dua, but one reason I know is because of people like you who are always complaining about piratan and who did not have any faith on pirs.

JEVO TAMARO IMAN , TEVI SAHEBJI NI VACHA.

THAT DAY IS NEAR WHEN IMAM WILL REMOVES NAME OF IMAM ,BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL COMPLAINING WHY WE ARE RECITING NAME OF THE IMAMS IN DUA.

Let me quote a Farsi proverb for you.

ZAMEEN JUMBOND, NA JUMBOND KHALIFA GUL MUHAMMAD

You wrote," Pir worshiped 4.4 million years then Imam listen to his request."
By the way pir's age was almost 120 years. In your other statement, according to Aradh Granth," Imam created noor i piratan separately trillion years ago and pir worshiped millions of years to see noor". These type of statements are common in Hindu literature and mythology and can be found hundreds years back in Muslim sufi literature also. How will you explain such statements to new generation. How will you prove scientifically?
Pir Sadruddin introduced names of pirs in old Du'a. Can you tell me what was the number of pirs mentioned in first old Du'a and in which century names of other pirs were induced in Du'a, because for few centuries after Pir Sadruddin the jamait kept reciting the names given by pir saheb.
You wrote," SATPANTH WAS IN ANIMALS", What a great idea. You mean all animals, elephants, cows, horses, pigs, rats, cats, camels, so on, there are thousands of types, were all satpanthi Ismailis!!! In one of your post you mentioned, you are not a RE teacher, thanks Lord you are not.
You wrote, Imam removed the names of pirs from Du'a because of persons like me. I am scratching my head; was I born at that time.
You predict that Imam will remove the names of Imams from Du'a in future.
103, Noor i Imamt is same, names dose not make any difference. Names are good for references and historical facts.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:05 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
To Imaili103,

Your assertion is wrong. It is the responsibility of Imam to make farman and not pir. Please refer to farman of MSMS. It is not the question of language either Arabic, English, Urdu or Gujrati. It is up to Imam what language he chooses.
Your this assertion is also wrong that Farman and Ginans are same. 103, do you consider Sayyedah Imam Begum's ginans equal to farmans or Nasir Khusru's poetry as farmans.
Your this assertion is also wrong that there is no difference between pir and Prophet. Pir Shams or Pir Sadruddin or any other pir were not Rasul, or Nabi or received revelations from Allah through Jibrael. But pirs have humbly said,
SHAFAYAT YARA MUHAMMAD KARSEY
MOMIN AAEI(N) BAHISHT LAHINDA.
You are always wrong, Imam never makes firman , its the responsibility of Pir,
Pir always make firman to guide us, thats why Hazir Imam as a Pir makes firman and thats why he uses word like inshallah etc.

Ginan is always a Ginan, either its written by Pir or Syed and yes Ginan is equal to firman either its by syed or Pir.

Pir shams said I am the creator, This verse from Ginan is everything for me and I know its frustrating for you non ismailies.

And Jibrael or Gabriel who? I guess he is salman farsi , no jibrael is definitely hz salman farsi or narad muni ( narayan narayan ) or gabriel etc

It is the duty of Imam to make farman, when Imam is not available than It is duty of pir to make farman. MSMS said," you like it or not but it is Imam's responsibility to make farman. ( if I am wrong ask ITREB, if you do not trust ITREB request HI, THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET CORRECT ANSWER).
You wrote," Pir Shams said he is creator". I do not challenge Pir Saheb but
a mother is a creator, a writer is a creator, test tube baby doctor is creator, cloning machine is also creator. Regarding Salman Farsi, he was not in real Jabrael. It is mentioned in a weak hadith that some times he visited Prophet in shape of Jabrael when Prophet was at home with his family members.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:17 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
I don't know who is explaining beautifully or dreadfully.
you wrote," If pir is nor superior than he is equal to Prophet". I wander some time back you people said pirs are above prophets and now you have stepped down that pir is equal to prophet. Your other blunder is that you wrote," the noor from prophet transferred in pir", in other words Prophet Muhammad has to be present to appoint pir. Now, how you will fit this theory as Imam and pir are same today. Thanks for your advice to read books, what can I say!!! PITTU(N) SIR KO YA ROU(N) JIGAR KO MAI(N).
You are again wrong, PIR NEVER APPOINTS ANOTHER PIR, BUT ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF IMAM, so

IMAM APPOINTS IMAM
IMAM APPOINTS PIR
PIR DO NOT APPOINTS PIRS

Please explain this to your uncle AK. He wrote," the noor from Prophet has been transferred in pir". I agree with you that Imam appoints the Pir.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 8:35 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
Can you explain what other tools pir Sadruddin used in converting Hindus of his time. At that time Bhajans were common and popular( till today). Pir studied
Hinduism, mythology, Veds, Puranas Ramayan , Maha Bharat including Gita and other literature and woven that with Ismaili literature beautifully and intelligently for conversion. Pir brain washed whom he converted by assuring them that 10th avtaar is reincarnated as Ali. In ginans mostly literature is borrowed from Hinduism and Hindu terminologies are used. To days khojas and mominas are Karishma of Pir Sadruddin. Regarding ginans your uncle AK has admitted that they are Bhajans.
When your mentor And you cant give answers you keep blaming Ginans and degrade Ginans, Quran was borrowed from bible, torah,and even there are matching verses in Quran and geeta. Note. Here I am talking about your fke usmni Quran not the real Quran which is Ginans and firmans and which give us knowledge time to time in each era.

Pir did not brain washed by saying that Imam is 10th menifestation( not incarnation ) , Imam is indeed 10th Menifestation, Imam Hakim bi Amrallah had said in front of 100% arabic jamat that he is 10 menifestation of Allah.

Imam sultan mohd shah had also said In the avatar of krishna, i palyed here in mathura with gopis.

Don't know about the Ginans , but Fake Quran definitely brain washed poor one billion muslims, and look now they are killing there own peoples JIHAAD NAAM TO SUNA HOGA....HAHAHAHHA Your central asian peoples are also same like these jihadis, i had seen with my eyes they are creating mess in jamat khanas in karachi , I had seen with my eyes they were using abusive languages in between JK karwai, I had seen with my eyes they Were using GUTKAAS, PAAN AND MAAWA IN JKs. And above all I had seen with my eyes one 15 years old your kid is hitting very hard to a 65 years old khoja uncle , you know why because that uncle is giving him some advice on jks ethics. Look at yourself the fake quranic peeps( or poops )

O My My, 103 are you PK.
Instead of giving me proper answers and explain n argue in descent way you
are down to profanity. Dirty brain always think in that way. If I tell you what khojas do in JK you will disappear. Do not involve in such debate on internet.
Quote name of the book,name of writer and year in which that book was published about the statement of Imam Hakim in which he claimed to be the 10th incarnation.
By the way MSMS's statement about gopies was given for GUPTI (Hindu) jamaits and it had nothing to do with other Muslim followers of Imam at that time.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 9:36 pm

mazharshah wrote: Quote name of the book,name of writer and year in which that book was published about the statement of Imam Hakim in which he claimed to be the 10th incarnation.

ismaili103 wrote 3 times "manifestation" which you yourself have quoted, yet you twist the words he has used.

Not Incarnation but Manifestation. You keep misrepresenting the posts of other people. This is just so disgusting. Don't you have any integrity or self respect left?

Imam does not "claim" to be this or that. He DECLARED to be the 10th Manifestation.

Gibbon says the Imam was considered a madman and tyran for having declared this. "He (Imam Hakim) ... styled himself the visible image of the Most High God, who, after nine apparitions on earth, was at length manifest in his royal person. At the name of Hakem, the lord of the living and the dead, every knee was bent in religious adoration..." continue reading. Because we are Ismailis, our knees are bent in the name of our present Imam who possess the same Light as Mowlana Hakim, Our Lord.

You have already been given on one of the numerous aliases you use, the name and the reference of the books, why do you ask again and again?

It is Edward Gibbon, in The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire Vol 6 page 254 and in Philip Aziz in les Sectes de l'Islam. I am sure in many more, not to mention Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's own handwritten affidavit in Court on Das Avatar being the tenet of faith for Ismailis: http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/files/N ... 1980-1.pdf

You desperately post here that you will continue asking questions many times up to the time people reply. But you have to consider that they do not reply because a) it has already been replied somewhere in this Forum and you are just not interested in reading or b) they do not want to reply to your questions because they know you have no idea of quantum physics so it is useless to discuss this subject with you.

Please consider this and stop flooding the Forum with the same again and again. Thanks you.

I would also appreciate that you do not insult the Guptis Ismailis by calling them Hindus. if you have no clue of what a Gupti Ismaili is, just abstain from ridiculing yourself in public.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:59 pm

To admin:ya Ali madad.

As for me pir n prophets are of same noor. different words is used in many religion.

Among non imams pir/prophets they are the same.with Nabi Mohammad first among equals. Like a president of a country is the first citizen and not superior.

For imams,pls read the khutba e bayan of Hz Ali.