Azaan

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:35 pm

Der Friends,
Last night I attended JK for chand raat.There was an article read in JK on Imam Hussain provided by ITREB National to all Jks. The interesting thing which I heard first time was, let me quote," When Imam Hussain was born Prophet Muhammad came at Mowla Ali's residence and the first thing He did was to Give AZAAN in the ear of Imam Hussain." I wander, we do not follow this practice but I have seen this practice in other communities. Now question arises, if we look at format of Azaan, sunnis do not include Ashhadu anna AmirulMu'minnen------- in their Azaan. Shias do add 3rd part of Kalima but they recite Ashhadu anna Amirul Mu'minnen Aliyan Waliullah. Also once before I posted in this Forum that in JK Du'a guzari was done by saying, " ALLAH ALMIGHTY GIVE HEALTH TO OUR BELOVED HAZAR IMAM------"some one explain me this trend. My consensus is changes are on the way.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 1:17 am

Which country? Not in Canada for sure, I attended Chandrat and there was no such announcement. As i have mentioned, there is an attempt by a group of people who have infiltrated our institutions to turn Ismailis in Sunnis, these groups are very active in some countries (Pakistan, USA etc).

In Pakistan, they had been successful into taking some Ismailis out of Jk and opening their own Masjid instead opposite Karimabad Jk. In Afghanistan they tried but failed.

By the way this thread should have been opened in Ceremonies section, not Doctrine. But since you want to make it a Doctrinal debate, I will leave it here.

We had our own Azaan, before Dua, which disappeared only recently again with instructions from the same people.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:44 am

I am not sure what you mean by the changes. Are you expecting us to start using the Azaan as well? Or are you expecting us to follow the general Shia concept of Aliyan Waliullah? Please clarify before we can discuss this further. As to the prayer "Allah almight give health to our Beloved Hazar Imam", it is meant to satisfy the beliefs of all members of the Jamat; those who accept Ali Sahi Allah and those who do not like yourself and the younger generation who are seeking understanding , so there is no confusion. Else how would the prayer look if we were to recite "Almighty Hazar Imam give health to yourself"?

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:08 am

In Pakistan, they had been successful into taking some Ismailis out of Jk and opening their own Masjid instead opposite Karimabad Jk. In Afghanistan they tried but failed.

Not only they build Sunni masjid next to Karimabad Jk but, there is another masjid next to Karimabad Jk which was founded by one of the ex ismaili who was once the part of karimabad council. Interesting thing is that he named that masjid as " NIZARI KHOJA ISMAILI MASJID" ....

Another thing is every morning after jk many old jamati members sit next to that mosque because there is Chai wala there. They took thee breakfast there and discussing about our religion including Ginans, dasavatar, Ali Allah etc I personally saw them.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:14 am

Mazhar,

Which country was that where that article was read. I guess it was not Pakistan because I didnot hear any article in JK.

But the good thing is that, now Karachi Council takes the initiative by arranging 2 hours morning lecture in JK. And that lectures discussion points are Reincarnation in Ismailism, concept of Ali Allah etc. seriously I didnot expect this from paki council, but its good they try to show real ismailism to younger generation.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Apr 21, 2015 3:37 am

ismaili103 wrote:But the good thing is that, now Karachi Council takes the initiative by arranging 2 hours morning lecture in JK. And that lectures discussion points are Reincarnation in Ismailism, concept of Ali Allah etc. seriously I didnot expect this from paki council, but its good they try to show real ismailism to younger generation.

Nice to know, good prospects for our future generation.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:40 am

Not only they build Sunni masjid next to Karimabad Jk but, there is another masjid next to Karimabad Jk which was founded by one of the ex ismaili who was once the part of karimabad council. Interesting thing is that he named that masjid as " NIZARI KHOJA ISMAILI MASJID" .... icon_wink.gif

Is it against law to build Masjid near any other place of worship?

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:37 am

zznoor wrote:
Not only they build Sunni masjid next to Karimabad Jk but, there is another masjid next to Karimabad Jk which was founded by one of the ex ismaili who was once the part of karimabad council. Interesting thing is that he named that masjid as " NIZARI KHOJA ISMAILI MASJID" .... icon_wink.gif
Is it against law to build Masjid near any other place of worship?

It's definitely not against law, even in mumbai there is Jk surrounded by Hindus colonies and temple.

I quote above statement of building sunni masjid next to Jk because I know the history of that masjid, because I born in Karimabad.

They build that masjid for the porpuse of converting ismailies into sunnis and they want them to came to that masjid instead of JK. But all went wrong for them, even a single ismaili didnot went to that masjid.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 1:40 pm

Admin wrote:Which country? Not in Canada for sure, I attended Chandrat and there was no such announcement. As i have mentioned, there is an attempt by a group of people who have infiltrated our institutions to turn Ismailis in Sunnis, these groups are very active in some countries (Pakistan, USA etc).

In Pakistan, they had been successful into taking some Ismailis out of Jk and opening their own Masjid instead opposite Karimabad Jk. In Afghanistan they tried but failed.

By the way this thread should have been opened in Ceremonies section, not Doctrine. But since you want to make it a Doctrinal debate, I will leave it here.

We had our own Azaan, before Dua, which disappeared only recently again with instructions from the same people.

Reply to Admin.

Yes, I heard the Azaan article in one of JK in USA. Back in Karachi, I know Ismailis who followed the Azaan ritual and they are die hard Ismails.
In late 70s first Khoja Namazi Masjid was established near Karimabad JK.
I was one of the persons who was against that Masjid. I am not a Sunni, and never converted any Ismaili. Is HI aware of these wolves in sheep clothings, if yes, why He appointed them in first place. Being as a God, He should be aware of their activities. I have lived in few countries and USA is not my final destination, KARACHI IS MY BASE. I am like a ramta yogi,

AAJ ISS SHAHER MEY KAL NAI SHAHER ME
SUKEY PATTU KE PICHHEY URATA RAHA SHOUQEY AVARIGI.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:23 pm

ismaili103 wrote:Mazhar,

Which country was that where that article was read. I guess it was not Pakistan because I didnot hear any article in JK.

But the good thing is that, now Karachi Council takes the initiative by arranging 2 hours morning lecture in JK. And that lectures discussion points are Reincarnation in Ismailism, concept of Ali Allah etc. seriously I didnot expect this from paki council, but its good they try to show real ismailism to younger generation.

Reply to Ismaili103,

You have mentioned Paki council( there should be some respect for our institutions). Is it the mandate of council or ITREB to arrange lectures on religious topics. Are these lectures started in all karachi JKs at same time for 2 hours period and who is delivering these lectures, is that an al waiz or research scholars.

In early 80's, a 4 hour program was arranged in Karimabad JK, because of that Khoja Nizari Masjid on sat evening. 2nd floor of Jk was full. Top officials of ITREB, mostly all missionaries, and research scholars were present. All were given different topics and to discuss frequent questions youngister/ students have on mind. In just one hour out of 2000+ jamits only 150 stayed and rest of them left. Reason, they were not satisfied with the explainations. Jamait wanted proper answers and teenagers wanted answers in yes/no format.That program doomed because of unnecessary philosophy, and reasoning beyond the capicity of understanding. That program was specially meant for youngisters who were inclined to Khoja Namazi Jamait.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:14 am

kmaherali wrote:I am not sure what you mean by the changes. Are you expecting us to start using the Azaan as well? Or are you expecting us to follow the general Shia concept of Aliyan Waliullah? Please clarify before we can discuss this further. As to the prayer "Allah almight give health to our Beloved Hazar Imam", it is meant to satisfy the beliefs of all members of the Jamat; those who accept Ali Sahi Allah and those who do not like yourself and the younger generation who are seeking understanding , so there is no confusion. Else how would the prayer look if we were to recite "Almighty Hazar Imam give health to yourself"?

Reply to Kmaherali,

Km, you are good at manipulating religious questions and answers. I noticed you follow two way traffic to avoid dead end. But this time you are at dead end.You drifted away from your assertion that Imam is God.
You wrote," Allah almight give health to our beloved Hazar Imam, it is meant to satisfy the beliefs of all members of jamait; those who accept Ali sahi Allah and those who do not 'LIKE YOURSELF' and the younger generation who are seeking understanding." So it is right to pray Allah in JK as we do in eid namaz and janaza namaz. Km, we are one community, have one same Imam, have same ideology, still you divided the jamait in 3 catagories or you are suggesting that in JK we pray to higher God to give health to lower god. You mentioned as person like me who do not believe Imam as God are also sitting whom ITREB has to satisfy, thats why we pray to Allah for health of Imam. Let us take your explaination as face value then why this rule can not be apply for Du'a Guzari," ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI IMAM WA AHL E BAIT FORGIVE OUR SINS", because you have to satisfy person like me present in JK too. Regarding Azaan I am not discussing its format but as a ritual what Prophet said while uttering Kalima and its wordings.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:40 am

mazhar wrote:
Reply to Kmaherali,

Let us take your explaination as face value then why this rule can not be apply for Du'a Guzari," ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI IMAM WA AHL E BAIT FORGIVE OUR SINS", because you have to satisfy person like me present in JK too. Regarding Azaan I am not discussing its format but as a ritual what Prophet said while uttering Kalima and its wordings.

Mazhar,
Before we can discuss further, what is the wording of the present Du'a Guzari?

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:50 am

kmaherali wrote:
mazhar wrote:
Reply to Kmaherali,

Let us take your explaination as face value then why this rule can not be apply for Du'a Guzari," ALLAHUMA BI HAQQI IMAM WA AHL E BAIT FORGIVE OUR SINS", because you have to satisfy person like me present in JK too. Regarding Azaan I am not discussing its format but as a ritual what Prophet said while uttering Kalima and its wordings.
Mazhar,
Before we can discuss further, what is the wording of the present Du'a Guzari?

Reply to Kmaherali,

Ya Imam e Zaman forgive---------------

Post by **Admin** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:10 pm

mazhar wrote:\

Ya Imam e Zaman forgive---------------

yes Only Allah can forgive unless he allows his Mukhi to do that

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:56 pm

There is a related link:
Concept of Azaan in Ismailism
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ight=azaan

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:27 pm

mazhar wrote: Reply to Kmaherali,
Ya Imam e Zaman forgive---------------

OK first let me clarify myself. When you mentioned the prayer "Allah almighty grant healrh to Hazar Imam", I thought it was somewhere at a function and hence outside Jamatkhana. Therefore I mentioned about the need to cater for different t murids with different understsnding. I have not heard such a prayer in Du'a Gujari. So I that kind of prayer is odd.

When a murid enters JK, he/she says Haizinda meaning that Hazar Imam is present. He/She is responsed by Kayampaya meaning you have attained the Qaim - the resurrector of the soul. Hence you are in presence of the Imam as object of worship and not as the intercessor. Therefore the Du'a Guzari should not change. It is correct to say " Ya Hazar Imam forgive..."

Post by **Admin** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:46 am

This discussion should continue on the following link

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ight=azaan