GINANS SHOWING 'ALI IS ALLAH"

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:21 pm

This is my new efforts to put some ginanic verses in those gianic verses telling 'ALI IS THE ALLAH"

This will be a long post and I will put it almost everyday.

The English transnational will be put below the Ginanic verses but if any readers wants more detail then he/she can email me.
So let me start from "Muman Chetamani" first!!!

1, Eji Brahma ne Vishnu Maheshvar kahiae,
Teto sarve che ae ghar mahain,
Ae ghar ma(n)thi aalaj chaliya,
Teto parvariya pirothami mahain. Cheto......

The Gods such as Brahma, Vishnu and Maheshvar are all one in
this Satpanth and are manifest in Ali's progeny and is present with us in this world.

2, Eji Te avtare avtar vahi gaya,
Rachana kidhi vishanu brahmaji tya(n)y,
Aaj chelli sandh kaljug sandhe,
Murtaza Ali avtarya makka mahain Cheto......

So many eras have passed and Vishnu prevailed as the Creator.
In this last and present era (Kaljoog) Murtaza Ali has manifested in Mecca.

3, Eji Satguru sarve sambaraviaa,
Moman bhai tame karjo vichar,
Aad uniayade thi ae ghar chalioo,
Te Ali rajo karshe sambar Cheto......

Momins, I have told you all, it's up to you to think over it. This
house (Satpanth) of Ali is from God Himself.
So do not forget to remember Ali.

4, Eji Sansar sirjiya Mowla Ali ae,
Te to sahoni rozi no puranhaar,
Te mahain athar jiv ae jug tana,
Tena necho nahin re lagaar Cheto......

Mowla Ali has created this creation and He is the One Who supplies
everyone with Roji (food) and among this creation there are some misguided souls; O Momins, do not forget that.

5, Te to Ali chhe rojino puranhaar Cheto......

Ali, Who will give you your Roji (i.e. sustenance).

6, Eji Nabi Mohd Mustafa upaviya
Teno chalyo che parivar
Satguri brahma Mohd aek che
Teno karta te vishano var datar Cheto.....

Prophet Muhammed Mustafa was created to complete a mission.
Brahma and Muhammed are one and Vishnu (GOD) became his son-in-law.(H. Ali) means Ali is the God !!!!!!!

7, ji Tare potani kudarat rakhi pota kane
Nabi Mohammed samajya sarve vichar
Dhan dhan mat tat ne kahiae
Ay che aad nirinjan no avtar Cheto.....

Prophet Muhammed had understood Hazrat Ali's greatness and
congratulated His mother for being chosen to be the person through which God would manifest.

8, Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari
Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for ""Ali is Allah"" and do not ever doubt it. (WAH BHAI WAH )

In following verses you will find that Ali is the creater!!

9, Eji Tare salam kari te to pacha variya
Te malaek ne sardar
Tare malaek Nabi Mohammed ne kahayoon
Ae to che arash kurash noon kirtar Cheto....

After saluting Hazrat Ali the angels turned back and said to the
Prophet: "Verily He is the Creator of the earth and the heaven."

10, Eji Tare Nabi Mohammed aem boliya
Bhai malaek tamne kahoon vichar
Amne pote orkhavio
Ae che susatino sirjan har Cheto.....

Prophet Muhammed said to the angels that Ali revealed Himself to me and verily He is the Creator of the universe.

11, Eji Ali te to sahi allah kahiye
Tema oocho nahire lagaar
Ame aene manio sidak soon
Aeno nam che jallshanaho aakar Cheto......

Momins, do call Ali Allah and nothing less for I have believed in Him
with implicit faith and He is my Lord.

In below verses Allah says about Ali
Eji Te roop amaroon jaanjo
Te Mowla Murtaza Ali avtar
Ali allah aek kari jaanjo
Te mahain shak ma aanjo lagaar Cheto....

Know My form (my; means Allah says ), for though I am manifest in Murtaza Ali, I am the
Creator and do not doubt that.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:42 pm

Below are some more verses from "MUMAN CHETAMANI" which will definitely clarify and answer Mazhar's childish questions and following verses are enough to keep his mouth shuts.

Eji Tare araj kidhi Ali janab ma
Tame sambaro parvardigar
Ali allah aek farmaviya
Teno te koon karshe aetbaar Cheto....

He requested Hazrat Ali saying, "How will I convince my fellow human
beings that you are God Manifest?"

Eji Tare dargah mathi farman aaviyo
Tame sambaro Mohammed mora piyar
Tam ghar farzand bibi Fatima
Teno Ali che bharthar Cheto.....

The reply from the Heaven to the Prophet was: "O My beloved Prophet,
marry your daughter to Hazrat Ali."
108) Eji Tam ghar farzand nar che
Am ghar farzand the bharthar
Tame Mohammed ame jallshanho
Aapan donoon no ay che vahevar Cheto.....

You have a daughter and I have the husband for her. You are Muhammed
and I am "Jal Shahnur"(Creator). Together we will carry on the mission.
109) Eji Jyare ae farzand mota thashe
Tyare karshoon te duniaanoon aachar
Ame tame donoon aek chiae
Tenoon koie na karsho vichar Cheto......

When your daughter will grow older I will create the circumstance for
her to marry Ali for indeed you are
from My Noor, so don't worry about the future.

Eji Ali allah je koie manshe
Teno pir te Nabi Mohammed avtar
Je nabi jini aal mahain thi upajshe
Te pir musalle saar Cheto....

Those who will acknowledge "Ali as Allah", they are indeed equivalent
to Pir and Nabi, and one can call them as from Nabi.

Eji Aal alijini sahi kari manshe
Je thashe te khawja no parwar
Sache sidake te chalshe
Ali Mohammed ni aal upar rakhshe piyar Cheto....

Momins, believe Ali's progeny to be true and those who will do this
will get the benefit as those servants did. They will also be guided to
the right path if they will love Ali and Muhammed.

ji Ali te allah kari manjo
Pir te Nabi Mohammed sardar
Amare farmane tame chaljo
To tamara vadhshe putra ne parivar Cheto....

Acknowledge Ali as Allah and Pir is on the same footing as the Nabi.
Thus follow what we say to you and
that will ensure that you and your family will flourish.

I think this is enough from Muman chetamani however I have just reached only 150 verses out of 630 verses if I keep continue then it will be pages and pages so I just stop here as long as Muman Chetamani is concerned I have to put more verses from other ginans too!! see you tomorrow.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:37 pm

If you are presenting a translation, please put a source to say where it was taken from.

Also make sure that when you post, people know what is taken from Ginans and what is your own conclusions and comments, make sure to seperate them and not mix everything. Thank you for your understanding.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:57 am

Concept of ALI SAHI ALLAH by Pir Shams.

Selected verses of HAQ TU PAK TU by Pir Shams.

hak tu(n) paak tu(n) baadshaah maher baan bee Ya Ali tu(n)hi tu...1

You are the Just, You are the Sinless,
Oh Ali the Gracious Heavenly King, You are indeed all.

rab tu(n) rahemaan tu(n) ya ali aval akhar kazi tu(n)hi tu........2

You are the Sustainer, You are the Merciful,
Oh Ali, You are the First and the Last Judge, You are indeed all.

te upaayaa te nipaayaa sirjann haar ya ali tu(n)hi tu.............3

You are the one who originated and You are the one who created,
Oh Ali you the Creator, You are indeed all.

Source
Ismaili.net

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:05 pm

The following translation, comments and inputs of some ginanic verses are totally mine it has nothing to do with ismaili.net.

1, Eji Aad nirinjan Ali kahiae
Satguru brahma Nabi Mohammad no avtar
Tene farmane je jiv chalshe
Te jiv otarshe pele paar Cheto....

Ali is the God, Nabi is Brahma
whoever accept and obey their farmans
they will reach salvation (Moksha, Fanafillah)

2, Eji, Khel ramat aeni aad uniaad thi
Jyan thaki sirjiyo sarve sansar
Aad nirinjan te nar Ali kahiae
Te nabi Mohde orkhiyo potano bharthar
Cheto...
Ali ( Allah ) is coming since the first day of creation, and he is the Allah that was first recognized by Nabi!!

3, Eji Ali ne te allah kari maniae
Satgure seva kidhi te jugajug saar

Believe "Ali as Allah"
Here Imam Shah says: that Pir Hasan Kabirdin also did khidmat of Ali jug after jug ( means many years).

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:51 pm

Aghakhani,
With ref. to your Momin chetamani explaination of few selected parts, you should have continued in the on going thread on the subject, thats how it should have been easier for readers to find all related material of Momin Chetamani under one roof. You should have given exact part #s as mentioned in granth to understand meaning in related to upper or lower parts. You have not maintained the continuity.You have twisted and manipulated the meaning according to your ideology. I take face value of the words according to dictionary and as the words are spoken. There are few versions of Momin chetamani, you should have mentioned from which book you have taken quotes, where that particular version was published and in which year, and who published it. If one person gives inner meaning according to his understanding and other person according to his ideology and third person in his own way, then there would be no compromise. That's why in our Tariqa only HI has authority to interpret according to time and that will be valid. In Momin Chetamani mostly Hindu mythology words are used, like Vishnu, Brahma, Hari, Nar, Gur, Satgur and so on. In RC's new syllabus Hindu mythology words are not included or discussed. Today's young generation knows Ya Allah ,Ya Muhammad, Ya Ali, Ya Imam and not Ya Vishnu, Ya Brahma or Ya Maheshvar.
Aghakhani, what you recite in 5th part of Du'a,Ya Ali - Ya Muhammad or Ya Vishnu - Ya Brahma. In Pirana, Imam Shahi's in tasbih recite OM and not Ya Ali. Ak, you gave little selection out of 630 parts and deliberately ommited parts which are in contradiction. You stoped at 150 parts and switched because you know well contradictory parts are coming. As in my previous posts, I have mentioned that 1/4 of Momin Chetamani is repeatation and there are historical mistakes and ommisions. You dodged my one crutial and according to you a chidish question.
In part 108 God says son ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house and daughter ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and I asked you a question," Yeh rishta kiya kahlaiga"?
Ak, you are a married person, tell me what is the relationship between your parents and your wife's parents, obviously that rishta shall be called " SANMBHANDI " rishta.
According to part 108, God says ," son is in my house."So these are two different entities, the Father and the son, and I asked you ," Who is the mother."
In part 117, Syed Imam Shah said,
EJI ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY
TENA NAAM NA JOAA JOAA VICHAR
ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN
NABI MUHAMMAD BRAHMA JENO AVTAR. PART 117
There is clear contradiction in the above part. Look at the first stanza, ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY. You can say noor is one, now if Ali is Allha, than Prophet Muhammad should be Allah according to your theory. In 3rd stanza, the wordings are," ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN." This is what I am saying that our Pirs equate Vishnu with Ali to
explain converties of their times. Today when a person converts to Ismailism, he is not asked to use names of Vishnu and Brahma in our kalma pak and there is no mention of Vishnu or Brahma in our Du'a. In many parts of Momin Chetamani the word Vishnu is converted to Ali.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:50 pm

Aghakhani, what you recite in 5th part of Du'a,Ya Ali - Ya Muhammad or Ya Vishnu - Ya Brahma

To me if MHI tell us to recites Ya Vishnu and Ya Brahma in place of Ya Ali and Ya Mohd then I will follow that, because they are same and there is no difference among them; matter of facts Ismailis from Indo-Pak has recited Vishnu and Brahma's names in their old dua not only few years but more than 600 years..

I have mentioned that 1/4 of Momin Chetamani is repeatation and there are historical mistakes and ommisions.

That was you mentioned! and you are telling that! right? but who the heck are you ? who finds mistakes in Muman chetamani now! were Imam's farmans were not enough for you to find mistakes so you started to find mistakes in ginans!!!?? BTW: I do not see any major historical mistake in it. and if have any then it must be a printing mistakes. period

Ak, you are a married person, tell me what is the relationship between your parents and your wife's parents, obviously that rishta shall be called " SANMBHANDI " rishta.

Are you not repeating this old issue which were answered by my shelf and Kbhai? is there any reason to asking again and again?

I knew the meaning but you spelled it wrong so I was first time confused, so, I just draw your attention on your wrong spelling that is!. and as a doctorate degree holder in "Medieval Indian poems" you do not need to tell me the meaning of any Gujarati words.

To me "Ali is Allah", the whole creation has been created from the Noor of Prophet Mohammad and H. Ali. they are Vishnu and Brahma!

I ,do not understand what is your problem? asking same question again and again I think this is your third time you have asked same questions!! and when 3 readers in this forum ( Kbhai, Admin and I) have given you answer of your rubbish questions on "muman chetamani" actually your questions were just pure accusations which you thrown it here in your scornful manners towards ginans. Now and afterward if you keep asking me same questions again and again then I will not reply

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:51 pm

agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2008
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 28 Mar 2015 08:50 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Aghakhani, what you recite in 5th part of Du'a,Ya Ali - Ya Muhammad or Ya Vishnu - Ya Brahma

Reply to Mazhar,
To me if MHI tell us to recites Ya Vishnu and Ya Brahma in place of Ya Ali and Ya Mohd then I will follow that, because they are same and there is no difference among them; matter of facts Ismailis from Indo-Pak has recited Vishnu and Brahma's names in their old dua not only few years but more than 600 years..

Reply to Aghakhani,

In past 100 years Ismaili khojas have been reciting Ya Ali and Ya Muhammad in tasbih and not 600 years. In our Du'a MHI has mentiond to recite Ya Ali and Ya Muhammad, there fore forget Vishnu and Brahma.

You are a Ph.D in Gujrati poetry, don't you know to analyze poetry with historic perspective, compare with poetry of other languages, and give proper references and quotations.

In part 108 of Momin Chetamani, I asked you question about philosophy there in. God said, I have son and Prophet you have daughter in your house. My question is when God said I have son means Syed Imam Shah is talking about two different entities. My other question is, When God said He has son, than who is the mother of son. My other question is of course about sanmbandhi, means is God and Prophet are sanmbandhi to each other. You dodged my these questions. Ak, explain me the philosophy of part 108 and not rhetoric.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:33 am

mazhar wrote:In part 108 of Momin Chetamani, I asked you question about philosophy there in. God said, I have son and Prophet you have daughter in your house. My question is when God said I have son means Syed Imam Shah is talking about two different entities. My other question is, When God said He has son, than who is the mother of son. My other question is of course about sanmbandhi, means is God and Prophet are sanmbandhi to each other. You dodged my these questions. Ak, explain me the philosophy of part 108 and not rhetoric.

You got the answer about it earlier. Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam and Hazarat Ali his son. Two Mazhars of Allah at the same time. One is the actual Imam and the other the potential Imam. According to Tusi the potential Imam is an Imam from birth.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:39 am

mazhar wrote:In part 117, Syed Imam Shah said,
EJI ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY
TENA NAAM NA JOAA JOAA VICHAR
ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN
NABI MUHAMMAD BRAHMA JENO AVTAR. PART 117
There is clear contradiction in the above part. Look at the first stanza, ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY. You can say noor is one, now if Ali is Allha, than Prophet Muhammad should be Allah according to your theory. In 3rd stanza, the wordings are," ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN." This is what I am saying that our Pirs equate Vishnu with Ali to
explain converties of their times. Today when a person converts to Ismailism, he is not asked to use names of Vishnu and Brahma in our kalma pak and there is no mention of Vishnu or Brahma in our Du'a. In many parts of Momin Chetamani the word Vishnu is converted to Ali.

Ali and the Prophet were both Fanna in Allah and hence they were both mazhars of Allah. So there is no problem. You call Ali or you call Vishnu what is the difference. Does it change the substance?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:41 am

TENA NAAM NA JOAA JOAA VICHAR
ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN
NABI MUHAMMAD BRAHMA JENO AVTAR. PART 117
There is clear contradiction in the above part. Look at the first stanza, ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY. You can say noor is one, now if Ali is Allha, than Prophet Muhammad should be Allah according to your theory. In 3rd stanza, the wordings are," ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN." This is what I am saying that our Pirs equate Vishnu with Ali to
explain converties of their times. Today when a person converts to Ismailism, he is not asked to use names of Vishnu and Brahma in our kalma pak and there is no mention of Vishnu or Brahma in our Du'a. In many parts of Momin Chetamani the word Vishnu is converted to Ali.[/quote]Ali and the Prophet were both Fanna in Allah and hence they were both mazhars of Allah. So there is no problem. You call Ali or you call Vishnu what is the difference. Does it change the substance?

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:57 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10409

Posted: 30 Mar 2015 07:33 pm Post subject:

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mazhar wrote:
In part 108 of Momin Chetamani, I asked you question about philosophy there in. God said, I have son and Prophet you have daughter in your house. My question is when God said I have son means Syed Imam Shah is talking about two different entities. My other question is, When God said He has son, than who is the mother of son. My other question is of course about sanmbandhi, means is God and Prophet are sanmbandhi to each other. You dodged my these questions. Ak, explain me the philosophy of part 108 and not rhetoric.

Answer by Kmaherali,
You got the answer about it earlier. Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam and Hazarat Ali his son. Two Mazhars of Allah at the same time. One is the actual Imam and the other the potential Imam. According to Tusi the potential Imam is an Imam from birth.

Reply by Mazhar to Kmaherali,
Km, you are not getting my point. In part 108 of Momin Chetamani, Syed Imam Shah wrote," Allah says I have son." Means you are talking of two Gods, one actual and other potential would be God. If Hazrat Abu Talib was actual God, than sorry to say that senior God passed away with out seeing the marraige of junior potential God because Hazrat Abu Talib passed away 4 years prior the marraige of Mowla Ali. You did not address my other question,"When God said I have son," who is the mother of son and what is her name.
Km, according to Islam, He who takes birth physically cann't be God.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:20 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10409

Posted: 30 Mar 2015 07:39 pm Post subject:

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mazhar wrote:
In part 117, Syed Imam Shah said,
EJI ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY
TENA NAAM NA JOAA JOAA VICHAR
ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN
NABI MUHAMMAD BRAHMA JENO AVTAR. PART 117
There is clear contradiction in the above part. Look at the first stanza, ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHEY. You can say noor is one, now if Ali is Allha, than Prophet Muhammad should be Allah according to your theory. In 3rd stanza, the wordings are," ALI KIRTAR VISHNU KAHEIYEN." This is what I am saying that our Pirs equate Vishnu with Ali to
explain converties of their times. Today when a person converts to Ismailism, he is not asked to use names of Vishnu and Brahma in our kalma pak and there is no mention of Vishnu or Brahma in our Du'a. In many parts of Momin Chetamani the word Vishnu is converted to Ali.

Kmaherali wrote,
Ali and the Prophet were both Fanna in Allah and hence they were both mazhars of Allah. So there is no problem. You call Ali or you call Vishnu what is the difference. Does it change the substance?

Reply by Mazhar,
In part 117, it is mentioned that ' ALI MUHAMMAD EEK CHHE', You wrote,"They were both mazhars of ALLAH." It means they both have same status. My question is, why in ginans Prophet's status is degraded to status of pir? When Ali and Muhammad eek chhe.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TO TAMEY PAMO IMAM.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:22 pm

not only this but there were imams also before H. Ali (s.a.)!!!

Below is the list of the Imams before H. Ali (s.a.) these imams are recognized as 77 patras in ginans and in old Dua.

THE BEARER OF
THE NOOR- E-ALI (SHRI VISHNU)

1. shri ahunah, 2. shri alakh, 3. shri naamnil,
period of 4. shri anil, 5. shri soon, 6. shri saan,
three 7. shri naan, 8. shri ginan, 9. shri noor,
'karans' 10. shri tej, 11. shri jal, 12. shri kamal,
13. shri adbudh, 14. shri jaag, 15. shri tantaw,
16. shri premtantaw, 17. shri aad furush,

(shri brahma ) --- incarnation of "the nabi,"
(shri ahunad aad ) the "noor" was in batin
(shri avigat aad) )

period of four 'kalaps'

1. shri haw, 2. shri kaw, 3. shri dharam
4. shri keshaw, 5. shri tawnaad, 6. shri utra,
7. shri haritak, 8. shri pururwa, 9. shri anta atita,
10. shri premrukh,

period of four 'yugas' (das avtar)

shri maccha

1. manaek, 2. ajamil 3. agarsen,
4. ochhaut, 5 . bharesp at, 6. asvamitar,
7 . pautar, 8. padwir,

shri korabh

9. bhisriyat, 10 . dikhiyat, 11. prajapat,
12. agarsen, 13 . kadim, 14. doel,

shri varah,

'patra 77' 15. keshav, 16. khatrivash, 17. asaaw,
the bearers 18. unas, 19. khalifat, 20. gotam,
of the 21. anta shri vishnu 22. haritak,
"noor-e-ali"

shri narshinha,

23. manaek, 24 . kauchak, 25. repak,
26. keshvadhan, 27. keshvarukh,

shri vaeman

2 8. maandhata, 29. prathmijay,
30. jaesrin, 31. javlagan,

shri farsiram

32. roog, 33 . noog, 34 . ju jeaat, 35. kumbra,
36. alif, 3 7 . ajepaal, 38. dashrath,

shri ram,

39. padam, 40. jashvadhan, 41. virpaar, 42. vaasudev,

shri krishna (ka' an),

43. parikhshat, 44. janmejay, 45. shesanand, 46. satanand,
47. swas than, 48. budsthan, 49. vinvachhraaj,

shri budha (adam),

50. shish (seth), 51. sham, 52. salaam, 53. malkaan,
54. eslaam, 55. haroon, 56. shamunnsaffa (simon peter),
57. adnaan, 58. maa' d, 59. nizar, 60. mudar,
61. eliaas, 62. mudrak, 63. khuzema, 64. kinan,
65. nazar, 66. maalek, 67. fahar, 68. gaaleb,
69. luve, 70. ka'ab, 71. mure, 72. kilaab,
73. kus e, 74. abdul munaaf, 75. abu hasham,
76. abdul mutlib, 77Abu Taleb [/quote]

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:30 pm

Mazhar

according to Islam, He who takes birth physically cann't be God.

If Ali is Allah, you are not talking about Islam. In Islam:
Supreme being is Allah.
Muhammad is Allah's last Prophet.
Hz Ali was Prophet's cousine, Son an Law, first Muslim convert, 4th Kalif to majority of Muslims and 1st Imam to Shia Muslims.

In hindu religion there are thousands of god.
So Ali is Allah, MHI is Allah. as far as Ismaili Muslims are concerned? It does not matter.

Post by **Admin** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:17 pm

I think you are very much confused. Aga Khan is not God,

the Noor which manifest itself in the Imam is God.

This has already been explained zillions of time. Enough is enough! You know what that means.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:32 pm

zznoor wrote:If Ali is Allah, you are not talking about Islam. In Islam:
Supreme being is Allah.
Muhammad is Allah's last Prophet.
Hz Ali was Prophet's cousine, Son an Law, first Muslim convert, 4th Kalif to majority of Muslims and 1st Imam to Shia Muslims.

That is the zaher as per our Constitution. The batin is for our Tariqah and the Imam is the Manifest Light and the Hujjat which implies that the Imam is Allah as per the Qur'an and hence it is Islamic.

MR-FORGET · Post by **MR-FORGET** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:55 pm

Mr.Kmaherali,
You wrote above that it is quoted in Quran that your Imam is manifested light of Allah, which is not believabe unless you give us some proof.
Can you please provise some quranic ayas which prove that he is ......?
Another question if he is manifested light of Allan then why he do not declares himshelf openly?
Looking the Muslims populations and Ismaili populations it does not look right.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 02, 2015 11:30 pm

MR-FORGET wrote:Mr.Kmaherali,
You wrote above that it is quoted in Quran that your Imam is manifested light of Allah, which is not believabe unless you give us some proof.
Can you please provise some quranic ayas which prove that he is ......?
Another question if he is manifested light of Allan then why he do not declares himshelf openly?
Looking the Muslims populations and Ismaili populations it does not look right.

Allah says in the Qur'an "Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth." (24: 35).
Now this Light is manifest as per Qur'an; "O ye people verily a Proof has come to you from your Lord and we have sent you a Manifest Light." (4:174,175)
According to Ismaili interpretation the Proof and Manifest Light is the Imam.

To be able to get a proper understanding of this notion, one needs background knowledge in Sufism or mysticism. Most people do not have it and hence the Imam does not openly declare it. It would confuse people.

Ismailis are different than other Muslums because they give more importance to the Batini aspects of faith. The majority of Muslims are zaheri, they do not believe in the Batini aspects.