Pir or Mustawda Imam

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 11:51 am

I am aware of the two different types of Imams - Mustawda or Pir (Trustee) and Mustaqarr (Permanent). In my time, we have never had a Pir, as Hazar Imam has held both positions. So i was wondering, if we actualy had a Pir/Imam Mustawda in today's world, what would his/her duties be?

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:40 pm

YAM,

I have heard in the same Farman Hazar Imam speaking as Imam and Pir and then saying "what does it mean? It means that your Imam is telling you that...."

So a sentence like this means for me that the Imam said something and as Pir he explained to us what he said as Imam.

Nagib

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:51 pm

I have read that some Prophets were also Imam Mustawda, ie: Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph were Mustawda Imams in succession, John the Baptist and Jesus were Mustawda Imams in succession, and Prophet Muhammad and Imam Hassan were Mustawda Imams in succession.

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Mon Jul 21, 2003 10:27 pm

It's just a matter of vocabulary.

Imam Mustakar is what we Ismailis comonly call today our hazar Imam.

Imam Mustawda is know by us as Pir and there was a list of Pirs in authority in our previous Du'a.

Imam Mustawda or Pir was called Hujjat ul Imam during the Fatmid period, not to be confused with the 12 hujats associated with the 12 Jaziras [or terrirories]. there is only one Imam Mustawda at all time, today both the Light of Imam Mustakar and the Light of Imam Mustawda are available to us through the same medium.

Nagib

kandani · Post by **kandani** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:55 am

Anyway Nagib, could you inform of just the NAME of Aaron's Arab father..so i can do my own research on this area?

ONiazi · Post by **ONiazi** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:16 pm

Ya Ali madad!

Have there been any mustawda Imams, other than Hazrat Hassan (as), in the modern cycle that began with the Imamate of Hazrat Imam Ali (as)?

Thanks!

Allah hafiz,
Omayr

nagib · Post by **nagib** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:05 pm

A list of Imam Mustawda [Also called Authorised Pirs] was in the Old Du'a [prayer] originally written by Pir Sadardin.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Aug 23, 2003 8:25 pm

Name of Pirs1. First, the Holy Prophet Muhammad, the Chosen, the Messenger, May peace and the blessings of God be upon him .
2. Pir Hazrat Hasan
3. Pir Qasim Shah
4. Pir Jaffer Shah
5. Pir Zainu'l - Abidin
6. Pir Amir Ahmed
7. Pir Nurdin
8. Pir Imamdin
9. Pir Muhammad Mansur
10. Pir Ghalibdin
11. Pir Abdul -- Majid
12. Pir Mustansir bi-llah
13. Pir Ahmad Hadi
14. Pir Hashim Shah
15. Pir Muhammad Shah
16. Pir Mahmud Shah
17. Pir Muhibu'din
18. Pir Khaliqdin
19. Pir Abdu'l - Mu'min
20. Pir Islamdin
21.Pir Sulehdin
22.Pir Salahdin
23. Pir Shamsu'd-din
24. Pir Nasiru'd--din
25. Pir Shihabu'd-din
26. Pir Sadru'd-din
27.Pir Hasan Kabiru'd-din
28. Pir Taju'd-din
29. Pir Pandiyat -i-Jawan mardi
30. Pir Haider Alí
31. Pir Alau'd- din
32. Pir Qasim Shah
33.Pir Nasir Muhammad
34. Pir Baba Aqa Hasan Shah
35. Pir Muhammad Zaman
36. Pir Aqa Aziz
37. Pir Mihrab Beg
38.Pir Ali Akbar Beg
39. Pir Aqa Ali Asghar Beg
40.Pir Mirza Shah Hasan Ali
41.Pir Mirza Shah Qasim Ali
42.Pir Aqa Shah Abu'l-Hasan Ali
43.Pir Mirza Muhammad baqir
44. Pir Sarkar Mata Salamat
45.Pir Aqa Shah Hasan Ali
46.Pir Aqa Shah Alishah Datar
47.Pir Aqa Shah Khalilu'llah
48.Pir Abu'l-Hasan Shah
49. Sultan Muhammad Shah Hazir Imam;
50 Mowlana Hazir Imam

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:48 pm

pardon me i am asking of quriosity

is mohammad saww regarded as imam mustawda while ali (ra) is given the role of imam mustaqarr?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:51 pm

Morg wrote:pardon me i am asking of quriosity

is mohammad saww regarded as imam mustawda while ali (ra) is given the role of imam mustaqarr?

Yes, that is true.

Because of the need to build bridges with other tariqahs in Islam, we have adopted two approaches to the articulation of the concept of Imamat; the Zaheri approach through which we make our faith known to others and the Batini approach through which we understand our own tradition.

Our understanding of the tradition is that Imamat has always existed even before Prophet Muhammad, but it was not known accept to the close dsiciples. Prophet Muhammad made the institution apparent to the world and hence it appears that Imamat began from the time of the Prophet.

Hence from the Zaheri perspective we articulate that Hazarat Ali inherited the role of the Prophet. This is consistent with the history of Islam beginning from the time of Prophet Muhammad.

But from the Batini perspective there have always been Imams and the Imam before Hazarat Ali was his father Abu Talib.

The role of the Pir is to nurture the faith of his murids through guidance and acceptance of Bayat. The Pir intercedes on behalf of the murid. That is the role Prophet Muhammad performed and hence he is considered as the Pir in our tradition.

The Imam is according to Imam Jaffer as Sadiq the "destination of all who strive to reach". The role of the Pir is to lead one to the Imam. The Pir is the intermediary between a murid and the Imam.

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:09 am

well this wakes up interesting questions about the imamat and the prophethood

so what you are saying to me is that hazrat mohammad saww first were a prophet but then was imam, and that the prophethood passed over to hazrat ali (ra) ?

and are these imams mustawda known? i mean is there written account about them? some of them hold both the offices while some of imams while others are pirs...

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 12:52 pm

Morg wrote:well this wakes up interesting questions about the imamat and the prophethood

so what you are saying to me is that hazrat mohammad saww first were a prophet but then was imam, and that the prophethood passed over to hazrat ali (ra) ?

and are these imams mustawda known? i mean is there written account about them? some of them hold both the offices while some of imams while others are pirs...

Prophet Muhammad according to our tradition was never Imam Mustaqarr. He was the Pir or Imam Mustawda.

As I explained, Hazarat Ali inherited the role of the Prophet from the Zaheri perspective, but in our tradition (the batini perspective) Hazarat Ali was already the Imam before the event of Ghadir-e Khum. This is perhaps another difference between Ismailis and other Shias.

Imam Mustawda cannot be Imam Mustaqarr. Only the Imam Musatqarr can hold both positions. Imam Mustawda is appointed by Imam Mustaqarr. Yes in our tradition we have information about Imam Mustawda. There is a book written by Abualy A. Aziz A Brief History of Ismailism which has the history of the Pirs.

Yes this would definitely be something new for you to understand. Just read the posts carefully and if you have further questions, feel free to ask.

Morg · Post by **Morg** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:30 pm

okey then

well does that mean that according to ismaili hazrat mohammad saww is not a prophet but a imam mustawda, while hazrat ali (ra) is the prophet and the imam mustaqarr ?

surely i am sunni and this will wake up many questions about this doctrine, although i do not allow the use of inlogical arguments therefore i would like to discuss this in civil manner and i will hold a neutral position.

-i have heard that ismailis or alevis believe that the prophethood should actually fell to ali (ra) but gibriel (as) accidentaly gave it to mohammad saww. is that right?

-in that case or overall. what position does mohammad saww hols among ismailis. is he ranked higher than ali (ra) or equal or lower

-is hazrat ali (ra) the manifest of god? (i mean, is he the incarnation of god, or god himself in human form?) according to ismaili faith?

thanx

Post by **Admin** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:42 pm

This is a lot of confusion. Obviously as stated by the Ismaili Constitution and the Imams, our Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] is the last prophet and this is valid  for all the Ismailis. There is no prophet after him. A Prophet can be Imam Mustawda but Imam Mustawda does not mean prophet. Please read the following which will clear the smaoke

<A href="http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.ht ... Whereas
(A) The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam). Admin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:02 pm

As I have explained, according to Ismailis, Imams have always existed even before Prophet Muhammad and hence they hold a superior metaphysical position then the Prophets.

The apparent confusion can be reconciled if we accept that there are two approaches to the articulation of faith; the Zaheri and the Batini.

The Zaheri approach deals with the manner in which we make our faith understood by others. The constitution reflects this approach. It is an approach which situates our faith within the larger Shia Islam. From that perspective Hazarat Ali inherited the role of the Prophet.

But within our Jamat (the Batini approach), Prophet Muhammad was the first Pir (Imam Mustawda) and he is therefore subserviant to the Imam. From this perspective Hazarat Ali was not appointed at the event of Ghadir but rather he was appointed at the death of his father Abu Talib.

It does not mean that Muhammad was not a prophet. He was indeed the Prophet but he was also the Pir of the Ismailis. Not all Pirs are prophets.
From a Zaheri perspective Imams are the inheritors of the Prophet. Tusi in the Paradise of Submission explains this apparent role as:

[§402] Every Prophet - peace be upon all of them - has had a legatee (wasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly set and established with surety, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been temporarily entrusted through trusteeship (istida'). The reason for this legacy is that during the period of each Prophet, the truthful Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - perceived it to be in the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as legatees of that Prophet. Adam's wasl was Seth (Shith), who has been called the son of Adam. The vestiges of knowledge in which Adam was instructed by God and the illumination of those words, by means of which Adam's repentance was accepted [by God], were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that legacy has continued in the progeny of Seth, 'offspring, one of another (3: 34), and will continue to the end of the life of the world.

[§410] The conservation of religious prescriptions of the Prophets was committed into the hands of the real Imams (imdmdn-i mustaqarr)
- may salutations ensue upon mention of them. However, because of the benefits they saw therein, and the divine wisdom they understood therein, they have sometimes effected this conservation through their own sacred selves, and have at other times entrusted it to their vicegerents and other people. Had they always effected this conservation themselves, the spirituality of these religious laws would have always remained firm and all the disagreements [there have been] would never have occurred. But since God has made these disagreements a cause for concord, as Muhammad - peace be upon him and his progeny - has said, 'Differences amongst my community are a mercy,'142 they have done whatever they deemed advisable for mankind at that time, and in like manner they have made the continuance of these rules an obligation.

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:05 pm

mazhar wrote:Reply to Kmaherali,
Km, I am not making a big deal out of nothing, but you are cunfusing me.
There is no name of Hazrat Abu Talib as a Imam in the 6th part of our Du'a. Now you are talking two Imams and two mazhars at same time. One hidden and one apperent. One actual and one potential, but at same time there is Natiq also present and one more would be Potential Imam Hussain as Imam Mustaqir and Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustawda also present. Please explain.

You are right we have no name of Hazart Abu Talib in the sixth part. This does not mean that he was not the Imam before Hazarat Ali. Imams have existed since creation. In the Old Dua we used to recite the names of the Imams before Hazarat Ali. Refer to the Vishanapuri at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

Natiq is for for general mankind. For the Jamat the Prophet was the Pir. So what is the problem about having a Pir as well.

Imam Husein and Hazarat Hasan were not present before the marriage of Hazarat Ali. I don't understand why you mention them.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:33 pm

About Imam Mustawda:
In Fatimid period literature, our dais have mentioned various darajaat or ranks of Imamat. On top is Imam muqeem, Natiq, Assas, Mustaqqar, Mustawda.
They also discussed Hazrat Abu Talib as Imam e Muqeem, Prophet Muhammad as Natiq, Mowla Ali as Assas, Hazrat hassan as Imam mustawda, and Hazrat Hussain as
Imam Mustaqqar. At a time Natiq, Assas, Mustaqqar, and Mustawda all were present, how they worked out in their capacities? My question was about Imam Mustawda with reference to Hazrat Hassan. Before Fatimid period Ismaili history is obscure. We do not have reliable sources to investigate. Before Fatimid Caliphat Hazrat Hassan was
considered as Imam Mustaqqar .Even Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq in their sermons mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam Mustaqqar. According to Ismaili philosophy,
the Nass of Imamat should pass on to eldest son ( with some exceptional cases, that's why in 1975 Paris conference ' pidar noor wa pisar noor' philosophy was with drawn).
Do we have any proof that Mowla Ali passed the Nass on Imam Hussain when eldest son was still alive? Musta'lean Ismailis, Isna a'sharies, and many sunni sects consider Hazrat Hassan as Imam after Mowla Ali. MSMS has mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam in his memoirs.( pl. don't mention that memoirs was only for non ismailis).
During Fatimid period, question arose that because Hazrat Hassan surrendered Caliphat to Amir Mua'wiyya, there fore he can not be counted in lineage of Imamat As our dais
were wel versed in Quran, Hadith, Jurisprudence, History, and literature, discussed the surrender of Caliphat by Hazrat Hassan and came up with the idea of Imam Mustawda.
Mustawda means Na'aib ( assistant ),Trustee. In this case Imam Mustaqqar give his some authority to Imam Mustawda to act on behalf of Imam Mustaqqar. In Ismaili history
we do not have any other such example, in my view it was an exceptional case again. The word HUJJAT means proof. For general information, the word Hujjat in Quran is use
4 times alone and with derivatives total 7 times. The word Imam is used 2 times alone and with derivatives total 12 times. The word noor is used 24 times alone and with derivatives total 49 times. The word HUJJAT is used in our Du'a for Imam e Zamaan. In first part we say " wa alla Hujjatil Amr, Saheb i zamaan i wal Asar". In my very first posting, I requested readers of this site to learn meaning of Du'a, so that we shall be able to under stand the dogmas and principles of Ismaili philosophy. In my opinion the word Hujjat can be used only for Imam according to Du'a, until Imam gives this title ( not power ) to some one. The difference between Imam Mustawda and Pir is that Imam mustawda can carry work any where or in any part of the world but a Pir is given a special territory to work within. Please note this is my personal opinion.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:40 pm

Why would you call somebody who assassinated Hazrat Hassan, and usurped power as Amir.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:47 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10370

Posted: 22 Mar 2015 11:05 am Post subject:

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mazhar wrote:
Reply to Kmaherali,
Km, I am not making a big deal out of nothing, but you are cunfusing me.
There is no name of Hazrat Abu Talib as a Imam in the 6th part of our Du'a. Now you are talking two Imams and two mazhars at same time. One hidden and one apperent. One actual and one potential, but at same time there is Natiq also present and one more would be Potential Imam Hussain as Imam Mustaqir and Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustawda also present. Please explain.
You are right we have no name of Hazart Abu Talib in the sixth part. This does not mean that he was not the Imam before Hazarat Ali. Imams have existed since creation. In the Old Dua we used to recite the names of the Imams before Hazarat Ali. Refer to the Vishanapuri at:
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0

Natiq is for for general mankind. For the Jamat the Prophet was the Pir. So what is the problem about having a Pir as well.

Imam Husein and Hazarat Hasan were not present before the marriage of Hazarat Ali. I don't understand why you mention them.

Km, I used the word would be potential.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:50 pm

fayaz006

Joined: 17 Jul 2014
Posts: 113

Posted: 22 Mar 2015 04:40 pm Post subject:

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Why would you call somebody who assassinated Hazrat Hassan, and usurped power as Amir.

Reply to Fayyaz,
I wrote Amir as mentioned in history. Now my question to you,
Why Hazrat Hasan surrendered his right to Mu'awiyyah, why he fought not like Imam Hussain? Just a Question without annoying you.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:22 am

In the begining of Islam, it was necessary to make all kind of sacrifice to keep the Ummah united. Hazrat Hassan and Imam made decision according to circumstences, which does not mean that your interpretation of history is accurate.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 1:48 am

mazhar wrote: Do we have any proof that Mowla Ali passed the Nass on Imam Hussain when eldest son was still alive? Musta'lean Ismailis, Isna a'sharies, and many sunni sects consider Hazrat Hassan as Imam after Mowla Ali. MSMS has mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam in his memoirs.( pl. don't mention that memoirs was only for non ismailis)..

MSMS made the following Farman
"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

The above Farman is quite clear that Hazarat Hasan was appointed to carry on the work of the Prophet which was Piratan and hence he was Imam Mustawda. He was never Imam Mustaqar.
On the contrary Hazarat Ali appointed Imam Husein as the Imam.

There should be no confusion about this matter if you pay attention to the Farmans of the Imam.

mazhar wrote: In my opinion the word Hujjat can be used only for Imam according to Du'a, until Imam gives this title ( not power ) to some one. The difference between Imam Mustawda and Pir is that Imam mustawda can carry work any where or in any part of the world but a Pir is given a special territory to work within. Please note this is my personal opinion.

Hujjat is only meant for the Imam. Hujjat is the Proof who is always present and not just the wasila. At present MHI is also the Pir. He travels all over the world to perfrom his role.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:52 pm

Piratan is not superior than Risalat. Pirs are not above Prophet Muhammad in authority. Hazar Imam said," Du'a is foundation of our Tariqa", and there is no mention of pirs in our Du'a. Hazar Imam never said, our pirs ( Pir Shams, Pir
Sadruddin, Pir Hasan Kabiruddin ) are superior or greater than Prophet.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:07 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazhar wrote: Do we have any proof that Mowla Ali passed the Nass on Imam Hussain when eldest son was still alive? Musta'lean Ismailis, Isna a'sharies, and many sunni sects consider Hazrat Hassan as Imam after Mowla Ali. MSMS has mentioned Hazrat Hassan as Imam in his memoirs.( pl. don't mention that memoirs was only for non ismailis)..
MSMS made the following Farman
"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

The above Farman is quite clear that Hazarat Hasan was appointed to carry on the work of the Prophet which was Piratan and hence he was Imam Mustawda. He was never Imam Mustaqar.
On the contrary Hazarat Ali appointed Imam Husein as the Imam.

There should be no confusion about this matter if you pay attention to the Farmans of the Imam.
mazhar wrote: In my opinion the word Hujjat can be used only for Imam according to Du'a, until Imam gives this title ( not power ) to some one. The difference between Imam Mustawda and Pir is that Imam mustawda can carry work any where or in any part of the world but a Pir is given a special territory to work within. Please note this is my personal opinion.
Hujjat is only meant for the Imam. Hujjat is the Proof who is always present and not just the wasila. At present MHI is also the Pir. He travels all over the world to perfrom his role.

To Km,

You wrote," At present MHI is also pir. He travels all over the world to perform his role". No doubt he is pir also, but he never converted any person to Ismailism and never composed any ginans being as a pir or wrote any religious treatise.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:09 pm

I think you have to read again. Piratan is not about writing ginans and converting people, I am not sure where you took that definition of Pir as understood in our faith (Hujat-ul Imam) There have been many Pir which never wrote any ginans, in your definition, they were not Pir then.

This is why I always say that you should have some knowledge of the subject before discussing it.

So again, read few books and try to understand the subject before posting for the sake of posting. it will just ensure that you do not loose credibility.

-------------------

"The most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading the original texts of our history, of reading these texts in Arabic, of reading them in Persian, of reading them in Urdu, of reading them in Gujrati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written."

27 Sept 1960, Karachi

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:34 am

mazharshah wrote:Piratan is not superior than Risalat. Pirs are not above Prophet Muhammad in authority. Hazar Imam said," Du'a is foundation of our Tariqa", and there is no mention of pirs in our Du'a. Hazar Imam never said, our pirs ( Pir Shams, Pir
Sadruddin, Pir Hasan Kabiruddin ) are superior or greater than Prophet.

Piratan is an eternal institution and prophethood is limited in time. Therefore Piratan is more enduring. Prophet Muhammad was also the Pir of Ismailis, so the question of superiority does not arise.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:38 am

mazharshah wrote: You wrote," At present MHI is also pir. He travels all over the world to perform his role". No doubt he is pir also, but he never converted any person to Ismailism and never composed any ginans being as a pir or wrote any religious treatise.

Farmans and Ginans are the same and the Imam ( the present Pir) makes complex Farmans and gives comprehensive guidance on all matters. That is the role of the Pir. Pir performs the role of the guide and the interpretor of faith.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:05 am

To Km,

You wrote," At present MHI is also pir. He travels all over the world to perform his role". No doubt he is pir also, but he never converted any person to Ismailism and never composed any ginans being as a pir or wrote any religious treatise.

In our tariqa, making firman is resposibility of Pir, when jamat was in Indian subcontinent so Pir makes the firman in Indian languages which are known as Ginans, now english is international language so Pir( hazir Imam) makes farman in english.

I agreed with Karim bhai Farmans and Ginans are same and I want to add one more Quran, three= one.

On the other hand, there is no different boetween Pir and Prophet. Prophethood ends on Prophet muhammad but it doesnot mean prophet muhammad leave the earth and Sets his residence in paradise, according to our tariqa noor of Muhammad trasfered to Pir Hazrat Hassan.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:31 am

his is why I always say that you should have some knowledge of the subject before discussing it.

So again, read few books and try to understand the subject before posting for the sake of posting. it will just ensure that you do not loose credibility.

If you think pir is not the superior than Prophets then he is equal to prophet because as per Ismaili perceptive and believes the noor from prophet has been transferred in pir, which Ismail103 explained beautifully.

There is no difference between ginans and faramans for us!

I agree with Admin that "you have to study and get some knowledge first" the fundamental beliefs of Ismaili sect ; What is piratan and what is Imamat? go ahead study that and then after raise any question.[

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:58 pm

Admin wrote:I think you have to read again. Piratan is not about writing ginans and converting people, I am not sure where you took that definition of Pir as understood in our faith (Hujat-ul Imam) There have been many Pir which never wrote any ginans, in your definition, they were not Pir then.

This is why I always say that you should have some knowledge of the subject before discussing it.

So again, read few books and try to understand the subject before posting for the sake of posting. it will just ensure that you do not loose credibility.

-------------------

"The most important problem by far for us today is to create students who are capable of going back and of reading the original texts of our history, of reading these texts in Arabic, of reading them in Persian, of reading them in Urdu, of reading them in Gujrati, of reading them in any language in which they have been written."

27 Sept 1960, Karachi

To Admin,

Thanx for your advice, day and night I shall keep reading books. The more books I read, the more questions will pop up in my mind.
Please explain, Who is superior, Imam mustawda or Pir. In Ismaili history only Hazrat Hasan is recorded as Imam Mustawda. The territory of Imam Mustawda is all over on earth but pir is confined to single territory for preaching given by Imam. The term pir is not defined properly, there was a book and a respected woman, and a child under umbrella of piratan. The crucial duty of a pir is to preach and convert people in Ismailism, ginans are tools used literally for conversion.