WowImam certainly says -- at His sermons -- that I am creator, sustainer, First, Last, etc..etc... [That in itself implies infallibility], but that is again to very specific audience, and not anyone and everyone.
Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.
There's no use at all discussing [or explaining] the beauty of colors to a blind person.zznoor wrote:WowImam certainly says -- at His sermons -- that I am creator, sustainer, First, Last, etc..etc... [That in itself implies infallibility], but that is again to very specific audience, and not anyone and everyone.
Thank you for this.kmaherali wrote: Tusi in his Paradise of Submission explains the exalted and distinct status of Imamat:
[§402] Every Prophet - peace be upon all of them - has had a legatee (wasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly set and established with surety, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been temporarily entrusted through trusteeship (istida'). The reason for this legacy is that during the period of each Prophet, the truthful Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - perceived it to be in the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as legatees of that Prophet. Adam's wasl was Seth (Shith), who has been called the son of Adam. The vestiges of knowledge in which Adam was instructed by God and the illumination of those words, by means of which Adam's repentance was accepted [by God], were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that legacy has continued in the progeny of Seth, 'offspring, one of another (3: 34), and will continue to the end of the life of the world.
[§410] The conservation of religious prescriptions of the Prophets was committed into the hands of the real Imams (imdmdn-i mustaqarr)
- may salutations ensue upon mention of them. However, because of the benefits they saw therein, and the divine wisdom they understood therein, they have sometimes effected this conservation through their own sacred selves, and have at other times entrusted it to their vicegerents and other people. Had they always effected this conservation themselves, the spirituality of these religious laws would have always remained firm and all the disagreements [there have been] would never have occurred. But since God has made these disagreements a cause for concord, as Muhammad - peace be upon him and his progeny - has said, 'Differences amongst my community are a mercy,'142 they have done whatever they deemed advisable for mankind at that time, and in like manner they have made the continuance of these rules an obligation.
[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.
I think what just mentioned is a very fundamental difference between the two.kmaherali wrote: In my opinion there is no essential difference except that the Eternal Imam never changes whereas the Manifest Imam changes - Light upon Light.
Manifest Imam appears as person; as such has all human qualities; He has to be born, grows old, passes away. However, the Eternal Imam has always [and will always] be there.
Think of it this way. If the Sun shines upon 49 mirrors; each mirror reflects the Noor of the same light uniquely in its own manner/direction, etc... However, it is the same Noor that each of these mirrors reflects. The Sun would be considered as Eternal Imam and each individual 49 mirrors would be Manifest Imam that manifest the same Noor of the Sun. This is how I understands it.
I think what's important for us to understand is to distinguish between the two and to realize when Imam is speaking as Eternal Imam and when as Manifest Imam.
Read carefully, what I have mentioned about Manifest vs Eternal. With that in mind, listen to Mauwla Ali's sermon of recognition.zznoor wrote:WowImam certainly says -- at His sermons -- that I am creator, sustainer, First, Last, etc..etc... [That in itself implies infallibility], but that is again to very specific audience, and not anyone and everyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAK_kNox ... e=youtu.be
agakhani wrote:Tret,
As long as this forums is concerened I have noticed that you the only one guy who gives more important to the speeches of MHI, eventhough we gave you solid proof of farmans of SMS that clearly clarifies that the open speeches and farman for his murids are a totally differents!
I have no idea what you are talking about!!
What he is saying is MHI says one thing to general audience including other Muslims and different thing in Firmans.tret wrote:agakhani wrote:Tret,
As long as this forums is concerened I have noticed that you the only one guy who gives more important to the speeches of MHI, eventhough we gave you solid proof of farmans of SMS that clearly clarifies that the open speeches and farman for his murids are a totally differents!
I have no idea what you are talking about!!
The basis of the Imam's speech is his Noor which is eternal. In one of his Farmans he has indicated that his Noor has indicated in which direction you must turn...tret wrote:I think what's important for us to understand is to distinguish between the two and to realize when Imam is speaking as Eternal Imam and when as Manifest Imam.
Hence whether he is talking about highly esoteric matters or whether he is talking about mundane business related matters, his source is always the Noor which is eternal. And of course the Imam being the Perfect Teacher will always talk according to the capacity of his audience. Hence for example to his murids he will make Farmans extempore whereas he will read prepared speeches when talking to non-murids. to the external audience the Imam says that he makes mistakes whereas to his murids he says he is infallible and must be obeyed.
Hence there is no distinction between the Eternal Imam and the Manifest Imam in this respect. He always speaks as the Eternal Imam.
Sharia is never constant. It is always evolving. The esence remains the same but the forms can vary depending upon context. Please go through the thread below for detailed explanation.zznoor wrote:If you follow regular Salat, Fast , Zakat and Hajj if possible and do not cheat, or hurt anybody and always be helpful
You are on Siratan Mustikin, Inshah Allah
Baten or Zahir - Can we choose?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... submission
No one denies that.kmaherali wrote: The basis of the Imam's speech is his Noor which is eternal. In one of his Farmans he has indicated that his Noor has indicated in which direction you must turn...
And yet most members say 'oh it's just speeches of MHI' or 'oh its just the Constitution' and so on and so forth...kmaherali wrote: Hence whether he is talking about highly esoteric matters or whether he is talking about mundane business related matters, his source is always the Noor which is eternal.
To me, Imam speaks always the truth but according to audiences' level of understanding, which is exactly what you mentioned. Therefore, a person with elevated knowledge or capacity would understand, even when Imam is speaking to a wider audience. But the other way around would not be possible, if a person with limited capacity hear a Farmaan [or Speech] of the Imam talking about esoteric matters [such as I am the creator, I am the sustainer], the common man would go insane. Therefore, when Imam speaks as Manifest Imam [is for common man], when Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [is for very specific audience].
If we try and take those Farameen [which has a specific audiance] and read it to common [Ismaili] man, first they would accept it -- as they should -- because it is Farmaan of the Imam, second, they may not be able to grasp the actual intend of the Farmaan, since it surpasses the capacity of the common man.
That's why we see some spiritual brothers shouting Ali is Allah, Ali is Allah.
I think you are saying the same thing, but not willing to accept it. That's okay with me.
If there's no distinction between Manifest and Eternal Imam, then when Imam says I am the creator. Do you mean MHI actually created the universe? Do you mean physically MHI created it?kmaherali wrote: And of course the Imam being the Perfect Teacher will always talk according to the capacity of his audience. Hence for example to his murids he will make Farmans extempore whereas he will read prepared speeches when talking to non-murids. to the external audience the Imam says that he makes mistakes whereas to his murids he says he is infallible and must be obeyed.
Hence there is no distinction between the Eternal Imam and the Manifest Imam in this respect. He always speaks as the Eternal Imam.
- if you say yes. Then you say yes, then prove it? [In that case you take the position of Christians who say God in Flesh]
- if you say no. then you unknowingly agree to distinguish between Manifest and Eternal Imam, but ego doesn't want to admit it.
Ya Ali Madad:
Imams, except for few said that they are GOD in a direct way such Imam
Aga ali shah ,SMS and few others.
In baatin context of every Imam'e message ,He implies that he is GOD.
"My dear spiritual children" .
Just understanding get one the status of MHI.
iF ONE CANNOT GET baatin of first 4 words, he may not get a single iota of baatin of the other content of farman.
Just posting rubbish out of scholars is useless n beating round the bush.
did the pir n Dai indenfied him as God? Yes very mush that is why they conferred with those designations.
If one in convinced that ALI is allah, he has said in Quran how he created the earth.
.
That person is good if not better Ismaili as Tariqat level.
Tariqati may be born again as Haqiqati If ALI wishes in his/her next phase of Life.
Our faith is not minutes of a conference or articles of constitution but firm
an irrevocable belief in HIM
at haqiaqat level, as the platform an equation changes
from ALI=IMAM upwards to ALI Is IMAM.
it is not Ali is Allah.
ALI WAS ALWAYS THERE WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND ONE OF FINAL NAMES HE CHOSE WAS ALLAH.
Imams, except for few said that they are GOD in a direct way such Imam
Aga ali shah ,SMS and few others.
In baatin context of every Imam'e message ,He implies that he is GOD.
"My dear spiritual children" .
Just understanding get one the status of MHI.
iF ONE CANNOT GET baatin of first 4 words, he may not get a single iota of baatin of the other content of farman.
Just posting rubbish out of scholars is useless n beating round the bush.
did the pir n Dai indenfied him as God? Yes very mush that is why they conferred with those designations.
If one in convinced that ALI is allah, he has said in Quran how he created the earth.
.
That person is good if not better Ismaili as Tariqat level.
Tariqati may be born again as Haqiqati If ALI wishes in his/her next phase of Life.
Our faith is not minutes of a conference or articles of constitution but firm
an irrevocable belief in HIM
at haqiaqat level, as the platform an equation changes
from ALI=IMAM upwards to ALI Is IMAM.
it is not Ali is Allah.
ALI WAS ALWAYS THERE WHO CREATED THE UNIVERSE AND ONE OF FINAL NAMES HE CHOSE WAS ALLAH.
So when he speaks to a specific audience, he does not manifest himself physically?tret wrote: Therefore, when Imam speaks as Manifest Imam [is for common man], when Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [is for very specific audience].
When he makes Farmans he indicates that his Noor has indicated in which direction you must turn, not his body. Similarly when he says he created the worlds, it would be his Noor. In both cases it is the Noor, not the body.tret wrote: If there's no distinction between Manifest and Eternal Imam, then when Imam says I am the creator. Do you mean MHI actually created the universe? Do you mean physically MHI created it?:)
If the Imam says that he is the Creator, then I would have no problem accepting that. Yes MHI actually continuously creates the Universe every moment. He did not create at one point in time! Yes physically, just as he physically makes his Farmans.
The Imam to me is the Ocean. Once a person attains the ocean he can acquire the powers of creation. For further details, I would request you to go through the following thread.
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... sc&start=0
What kind of proof are you looking for? Aren't his own words and actions proof enough for those who have eyes to see?tret wrote: - if you say yes. Then you say yes, then prove it? [In that case you take the position of Christians who say God in Flesh]
- if you say no. then you unknowingly agree to distinguish between Manifest and Eternal Imam, but ego doesn't want to admit it.
If you have a university professor who teaches calculus at university level and he decides to go and teach math to primary school kids. He will still retain his qualifications of the professor but will teach kids math. By changing his audience and content he does not change his qualifications or he cannot be called a kid simply because he teaches kids.tret wrote: Therefore, when Imam speaks as Manifest Imam [is for common man], when Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [is for very specific audience].
Similarly the Imam will be the bearer of Noor when he teaches his specific audience, but he will still be the bearer of the Noor if he speaks to common people according to their capacity. His qualifications do not change in any way. It is the same Manifest Imam speaking to different audiences, yet being the bearer of the Noor (Eternal Imam).
If we were after the body, we would be worst than idol worshipers. MHI in his physical body is like any other human being. It's his Noor that makes MHI and Imam.kmaherali wrote: So when he speaks to a specific audience, he does not manifest himself physically?
If you do not understand this yet, then I am so sorry for you.
Manifest Imam is for every mankind to see and recognize him.
Eternal Imam is for believers to see past physical body.
Of course Imam's status is always the same when He speaks as Manifest Imam or Eternal Imam. Please re-read what I said, again.
Yes, His Noor. Don't you hear yourself? It's his Noor [not His Body]. I am not sure what else do you want to say? You are disagreeing with me, but yet contradicting yourself.kmaherali wrote: When he makes Farmans he indicates that his Noor has indicated in which direction you must turn, not his body. Similarly when he says he created the worlds, it would be his Noor. In both cases it is the Noor, not the body.
It's the Noor of the Imam [Eternal Imam]. Physical body of the Imam [Manifest Imam]. This is what we need to understand.
Similarly, when Imam speaks as Manifest Imam [Interview, Speeches other public places] Imam would use language of common man. However, when Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [to a specific audience], then He uses the qualities of the Eternal Imam [such as creator, sustainer, etc...]. This is what I was pointing out to understand.
Now, of course Imam's status doesn't change when you speak as Manifest Imam or Eternal Imam. You an I know that; but how about a common person? They won't know that, and will go nuts. Even to some of Ismailie Jama'at, for that matter. That's why some jama'at when hear these Farmaans, they go shouting Ali is Allah, Ali is Allah.
I would not like to call it creation [that happened at the beginning of everything], I'd rather use the term "origination", which is more accurate. Because I agree with you on the point that "creation" is happening perpetually, and God is ever involved in every moment of the creation.kmaherali wrote: If the Imam says that he is the Creator, then I would have no problem accepting that. Yes MHI actually continuously creates the Universe every moment. He did not create at one point in time! Yes physically, just as he physically makes his Farmans.
When I asked you physically, I was referring to literally using your hands to create something. Imam makes Farmaan, most probably using a pen and paper [or type writer or something]. So, if you say, Imam uses his hands to create the universe, come on my friend, I think you would be talking silly now.
Have you attained that status?kmaherali wrote: The Imam to me is the Ocean. Once a person attains the ocean he can acquire the powers of creation. For further details, I would request you to go through the following thread.
Well, I was asking you to prove that Imam uses his physical body to create. Did Imam ever say I use my physical body to create? Or did Imam say I am the creator? How can you draw the conclusion from the latter , that Imam uses his physical body to create?kmaherali wrote: What kind of proof are you looking for? Aren't his own words and actions proof enough for those who have eyes to see?
Imam's words are more than proof, but if you start mis-interpreting them, god forbid, we would end up like ahl-e-sunnah who are dealing with thousands of fake hadis floating around.
kmaherali wrote: If you have a university professor who teaches calculus at university level and he decides to go and teach math to primary school kids. He will still retain his qualifications of the professor but will teach kids math. By changing his audience and content he does not change his qualifications or he cannot be called a kid simply because he teaches kids.
I grant you that. However, now change your perspective to students. When the university student sees his calculus teacher, the student then say "He is my calculus teacher". However, when the first grader sees Him, he would say "He is my math teacher".
I was purely talking from murid's perspective to recognize Manifest vs Eternal Imam. Imam already knows that. His status never changes. It's our knowledge that changes. the same first grader eventually will go to university, and his math teacher, then, now teaches him the calculus. Now he realize all along that the same math teacher also knows calculus.
kmaherali wrote: Similarly the Imam will be the bearer of Noor when he teaches his specific audience, but he will still be the bearer of the Noor if he speaks to common people according to their capacity. His qualifications do not change in any way. It is the same Manifest Imam speaking to different audiences, yet being the bearer of the Noor (Eternal Imam).
I never claimed otherwise. See my reply just above. It's rather us[you and I] should recognize when Imam speaks to specific audience [as Eternal Imam] and when Imam speaks to common man [as Manifest Imam]. It's more for you and I, then the Imam.
Lets make it short! rather than going here and there, repeating it again and again and accusing one another not to understand one's POV this thinking is based on many waezes I heard and on some farmans I read of our previous Imams; Imam remains the same all the time, whether you call him manifested imam or eternal imam or Shah or Pir but his addresses may be different for his murids, which we call as farmans than his speeches which are specially delivered for general audience.
The speeches of Imam are directed towards entire mankind. So they will understand them. The Farmans are directed towards the murids. The rest of mankind may or may not understand them.zznoor wrote:Do you think out of entire Muslim umma less 20 million Ismaili Muslims there is nobody who will understand this Noor laced speech? Are they so dumb. I believe, There are quite a few who are steeped in Shia, Sunni and Sufi religious knowledge. Why do you underestimate them?
OK so if the Imam says in his Farmans that he is the Creator, then according to you it is the Eternal Imam. So according to you would it imply that he is indeed the Creator in reality?tret wrote:Now, of course Imam's status doesn't change when you speak as Manifest Imam or Eternal Imam. You an I know that; but how about a common person? They won't know that, and will go nuts. Even to some of Ismailie Jama'at, for that matter. That's why some jama'at when hear these Farmaans, they go shouting Ali is Allah, Ali is Allah.
Does it really matter whether I have or not attained the status?tret wrote:Have you attained that status?kmaherali wrote: The Imam to me is the Ocean. Once a person attains the ocean he can acquire the powers of creation. For further details, I would request you to go through the following thread.
tret wrote: Well, I was asking you to prove that Imam uses his physical body to create. Did Imam ever say I use my physical body to create? Or did Imam say I am the creator? How can you draw the conclusion from the latter , that Imam uses his physical body to create?
The Imam may not use his hands but he can create anything by simply applying his will and it could happen spontaneously if he chooses to do that.
OK I at least understand your point of view although I disagree. Then each murid will have his/her own opinion of the Eternal Imam. It would be an individual and subjective matter. Not objective. Am I right?tret wrote: I never claimed otherwise. See my reply just above. It's rather us[you and I] should recognize when Imam speaks to specific audience [as Eternal Imam] and when Imam speaks to common man [as Manifest Imam]. It's more for you and I, then the Imam.
Yes, indeed! Here's my understanding though. Remember the analogy of Sun and Mirrors I gave you? So, when Imam speaks as Eternal Imam [such as I am the Creator], then it is referred to the Sun, in this context.kmaherali wrote: OK so if the Imam says in his Farmans that he is the Creator, then according to you it is the Eternal Imam. So according to you would it imply that he is indeed the Creator in reality?
In the context of our discussion, it certainly does matter! So again have you attained that status?kmaherali wrote: Does it really matter whether I have or not attained the status?
Right. So, not physically!kmaherali wrote: The Imam may not use his hands but he can create anything by simply applying his will and it could happen spontaneously if he chooses to do that.
Each murid has his/her own understanding of the Eternal Imam, based on his/her knowledge of the Imam. Some do exaggeration and say Imam is Allah. Some consider him simply as common man and Guide to humanity; however, some consider him neither Allah, nor common man; but Mazhar-ul-Ajayeeb, Mazhar-e-Noor khuda, Hujjat-e-Khuda; hence subjective to murid's understanding. But, objective from Imam's perspective. So, that doesn't mean the status of the [Eternal] Imam changes, based on murid's understanding.kmaherali wrote: OK I at least understand your point of view although I disagree. Then each murid will have his/her own opinion of the Eternal Imam. It would be an individual and subjective matter. Not objective. Am I right?
so the Imam has limitations as to what He can do and what He can't do.tret wrote:Right. So, not physically!kmaherali wrote: The Imam may not use his hands but he can create anything by simply applying his will and it could happen spontaneously if he chooses to do that.
can you state some or few examples what He can't do?
In my opinion, the Imam will respect the laws of nature(Kudrat) that he has created though he himself is not bound by them.
There are interesting questions: Can God create something so heavy that he himself can not move it, is he limited in his power to do so? If he can, he is not the most powerfull
There is no answers to some questions because some concepts (like "heavy") are human concepts which limit our understanding.
There are interesting questions: Can God create something so heavy that he himself can not move it, is he limited in his power to do so? If he can, he is not the most powerfull
There is no answers to some questions because some concepts (like "heavy") are human concepts which limit our understanding.
I don't believe we [murids or disciples] are in any position to put any kind of limitations to the Imam [The Master, The Lord], let alone to give examples. We are limited to our understanding and our knowledge, Imam is not. That's why there are things that we don't understand and doesn't make sense. [Like the parable of H Musa's encounter with Khizr]. Questions and curiosity is important. It makes us contemplate and wonder and gives us the thirst for quest.a_27826 wrote:so the Imam has limitations as to what He can do and what He can't do.tret wrote:Right. So, not physically!kmaherali wrote: The Imam may not use his hands but he can create anything by simply applying his will and it could happen spontaneously if he chooses to do that.
can you state some or few examples what He can't do?
Admin raises good point, and that's only because of our limited capacity.
As history witnessed, H Isa brought dead to life. Sounds pretty impossible scientifically, but yet He did.
I don't believe this can imply to God. Capable and not capable is within human capacity. God transcends all those qualifications. Philosophers even argue that God transcends the "Existence" and "Non-Existence" and "Being" and "Non-Being".Admin wrote: There are interesting questions: Can God create something so heavy that he himself can not move it, is he limited in his power to do so? If he can, he is not the most powerfull
Well it seems Khizr, Isa and Shams did not respect much about the "laws of nature"Admin wrote:In my opinion, the Imam will respect the laws of nature(Kudrat) that he has created though he himself is not bound by them.
There are interesting questions: Can God create something so heavy that he himself can not move it, is he limited in his power to do so? If he can, he is not the most powerfull
There is no answers to some questions because some concepts (like "heavy") are human concepts which limit our understanding.
According to the Farmans of the present Imam a person who has attained the status should not discuss it we anyone. However the Imam can himself allude to the people who have attained that status such as Mansur, Pir Sadardeen , Hafiz, Rumi etc.tret wrote:In the context of our discussion, it certainly does matter! So again have you attained that status?
You said that he is the Sun yet you say that it is an exaggeration to say Imam is Allah.tret wrote: Some do exaggeration and say Imam is Allah.?
It is only an exaggeration if we publicly (zahiri context) declare Imam is Allah. However to say Imam is Allah within the Jamat (batini context) would not be an exaggeration. Am I correct in this implication?"
Also when MSMS said in his Memoirs (for the public):
"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."
Would you consider that as Eternal Imam or Manifest Imam?