Elders of the Jamat versus Pluralism

[NabilaDaredia]

I have noticed a trend in our Jamat wherein the adults, and especially the elders are...racist, for lack of better word, towards people of other skin color and religion, yet when HI speaks of pluralism, they agree. Some have a mentality that Ismailism is better than not only other sects of Islam, but also other faiths altogether. For example, one of my friends is half-African American, half-Indo-Paki, and a very involved Ismaili. My grandmother was surprised that she could speak the same language as 'we do', or even new her dua, though she has been Ismaili by birth (her mother is Ismaili, her father is Christian). Another example is that some parents won't allow their children to visit non-Ismaili or non-tawny (as in skin color) households.
My concern is how to remove this narrow-mindedness from our elders, and to do-away with this prejudice.
Any ideas?

[shamsu]

Its just ignorance and a less than desireable amount of literacy.

People tend to be prejudiced against what they dont understand.

Then there is the whole Pork, Alcohol and Sex issue which is nothing to the non Ismaili/non tawny westerners but normal life.

To build bridges is one thing but to cross them quite another.

Our Pirs have warned us to not have relationships(personal) with non Ismailies. (Apni naath cchodi per naath vehvaar ne kije).

[ShamsB]

Its just ignorance and a less than desireable amount of literacy.

People tend to be prejudiced against what they dont understand.

Then there is the whole Pork, Alcohol and Sex issue which is nothing to the non Ismaili/non tawny westerners but normal life.

To build bridges is one thing but to cross them quite another.

Our Pirs have warned us to not have relationships(personal) with non Ismailies. (Apni naath cchodi per naath vehvaar ne kije).

There is also a 1990's farman of MHI in Kenya where He says He told us to build bridges but didn't tell us to cross them.

ShamsB

[kmaherali]

On the issue at hand, our Imams have made numerous Farmans on interracial harmony and indeed encouraged us to adopt African children at one point in time. Hence to have any racial prejudice is being Na Farmani and this should be pointed out to the racist elders.

Aapni Naath chhori means severing relationship with our Master (MHI). The Peer is telling us not to have relationship with any other master at the expense of the relationship with the Imam. So long as you are steadfast in your relationship with the Imam, other relationships including personal are possible (though difficult to maintain).

Sati Taraarani was steadfast in her relationship with the Imam though she was married to King Harishchandra who was not a murid initially.

[unnalhaq]

It does not help when missionaries like AbuAli running his mouth as he did in Chicago JKs preaching that racial integration is weakening the “Ismaili” community and o&shy;n and o&shy;n.&nbsp; I have a problem with that because My father’s mom (my grandmother) was not Iamaili, she was Burmese and converted.&nbsp; My father’s dad ( my grandfather) was Persian Isamili a “Non Khoja”.&nbsp; My mother’s dad (my other grandfather) was Persian too.<BR>And I have noticed that too in JK that there are many women and men too who would shun new Ismailis to the Jamet just because the person is white!&nbsp; I have told them that they should not attend a Darbar or Deedar because the Imam is white!<BR>

[ShamsB]

It does not help when missionaries like AbuAli running his mouth as he did in Chicago JKs preaching that racial integration is weakening the “Ismaili” community and o&shy;n and o&shy;n.&nbsp; I have a problem with that because My father’s mom (my grandmother) was not Iamaili, she was Burmese and converted.&nbsp; My father’s dad ( my grandfather) was Persian Isamili a “Non Khoja”.&nbsp; My mother’s dad (my other grandfather) was Persian too.<BR>And I have noticed that too in JK that there are many women and men too who would shun new Ismailis to the Jamet just because the person is white!&nbsp; I have told them that they should not attend a Darbar or Deedar because the Imam is white!<BR>

I think you might be quoting Abuali Missionary somewhat out of context..his statement may been towards interreligious marraiges/interracial marraiges where one spouse remains ismaili and the other keeps their faith..that weakens our community..it weakens our faith...think of the confusion that the children have within themselves.

[unnalhaq]

I do not agree with you (ShamsB). The thing is that I was not there in JK nether NorthLake nor Chicago but once I heard what was said I did intercept the tape and since I required translations in both Farsi (from my grandmother)and English (from my dad) they both confirmed my deduction. And I have made it a point to go after it. It is more confusing to children when they only hear single sided information about religion and it is better to know what is out there.&nbsp; one can’t just say that he/she is on straight and narrow when he/she is going in circle, one needs to remove the blinders and rise above to see the path ahead.

[kmaherali]

I think you might be quoting Abuali Missionary somewhat out of context..his statement may been towards interreligious marraiges/interracial marraiges where one spouse remains ismaili and the other keeps their faith..that weakens our community..it weakens our faith...think of the confusion that the children have within themselves.

I do not believe that intermarriages contribute to weakness of Ismailism. The intermarriage of Sati Tararani to Raja Harishchandra strengthened the cause of Ismailism. Harishchandra became the master of the seven crores!

I think what weakens Ismailism is taking it for granted. That because you are born Ismailis you will automatically gain salvation. That breeds complacency and hinders genuine search.

If there is harmony and love in an intermarriage, then good human beings are brought up predicated upon shared ethics. But if there is conflict then it does not matter whether it is an intermarriage of not the product will be weak.

[unnalhaq]

kmaherali, I think I got the just of what you are saying and I agree with you. If you don't mind me asking, what is in your 1st paragraph? I am kinda lost there... Many thanks.

[kmaherali]

kmaherali, I think I got the just of what you are saying and I agree with you. If you don't mind me asking, what is in your 1st paragraph? I am kinda lost there... Many thanks.

According to our Ginanic tradition, Sati(saintly one) Tararani was a great Ismaili saint who was married to King Harishchandra who was not an Ismaili at the time of their marriage. Tararani however remained steadfast in her relationship with the Imam of the time and she underwent many tribulations for that. As their marriage progressed, the Sati would attend various religious rites and ceremonies in secret perhaps without the knowledge of her husband.

During one of these secret endeavors, King Harishchandra followed her without her knowledge and perhaps became also aware of what was happening at the gathering. Upon her return the King questioned her about her secret meeting and also about the tray containing juras. Miraculously, the sweets such as 'ladus' and 'beejoraa' became oranges, and meat was transformed into grapes.

The King was stunned by all this and he wanted to know more about her faith. He subsequently converted and became the most devoted Ismaili who saved 7 crore souls.

The whole episode is related in the Ginan : “Amar Te Aayo More Shahji Jo E-Mu Allaah” which can be referenced in the Ginan section mentioned in the site map on the left side of the current window.

Any more questions, you are welcome to ask.

[unnalhaq]

Thanks for the insight. As I grew up we had different rituals-traditions of practicing our faith and Ginans were/are not part of it. Don’t get me wrong, we do respect them after all we (Persians) shared/sent the people (pirs) tabliqis, saints many years ago. At times I wonder what if they were sent to Europe or Americas? Do you think there would be a lot of caroling

[kmaherali]

Thanks for the insight. As I grew up we had different rituals-traditions of practicing our faith and Ginans were/are not part of it. Don’t get me wrong, we do respect them after all we (Persians) shared/sent the people (pirs) tabliqis, saints many years ago. At times I wonder what if they were sent to Europe or Americas? Do you think there would be a lot of caroling

I can understand your unfamiliarity with the Ginanic literature. If the form of religious expression was caroling then I would imagine that there would be caroling. However the content would still contain ideas about Dasond, Das Avataar, Ghat Paat, Dua karavi etc.

[unnalhaq]

Here are the principal differences between the Khoja Ismaili and the Persian Ismailis (maybe the rest of Ismailis) not until just a few years ago when we (my dad and I) started to attend Khoja-Jamet Khana. I understand the tithe/alms (“Dasond”) and I guess the Aab-e-Shifa/Nias but as I understand, is “Ghat Paat” but not totally, the confession is guessed it could be “Dua karavi” I am still not warm to this idea, I guess in the name of the spirit of Pluralism. However, Das Avataar, it took me a while to find what it meant, I am sorry this is fundamentally in contradiction to Islam. And also don’t tell me and anyone that “It is a different interpretation of Islam.” I am sorry, that would be a pork bologna. Bonaparte my friend!
I can see this will not be very productive if we got into arguments of the rites and rituals of the different background lead by the same Imam. Therefore, I am not going to further comments going into comparison and contrast contest.

[kmaherali]

However, Das Avataar, it took me a while to find what it meant, I am sorry this is fundamentally in contradiction to Islam. And also don’t tell me and anyone that “It is a different interpretation of Islam.” I am sorry, that would be a pork bologna. Bonaparte my friend!
I can see this will not be very productive if we got into arguments of the rites and rituals of the different background lead by the same Imam. Therefore, I am not going to further comments going into comparison and contrast contest.

I will not argue with you on this. However the following is Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's Farman:

"The philosophy of Ten Incarnations (DAS AVTAAR) should be taken and explained in the light of Islamic principles; also the understanding of ALLAH'S NOOR, whose lineal descent is from even before creation, should be given. These principles, Pir Sadardin during the time of Shri Islam Shah has explained, they should be explained in a similar manner.
(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

[unnalhaq]

"(Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, II, p473).

You know I was trying to get my hands on Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin, I even went to Toronto for it in search of it. And I have found out that Kalam-e Imam-e Mubin has been pulled by the Present Imam. As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on.

[_thaillestlunatic_]

I have KIM if you want it. What do you mean by "pulled"
do you mean MHI has discarded it?

[unnalhaq]

I have KIM if you want it. What do you mean by "pulled"
do you mean MHI has discarded it?

Sure, I would like a copy, just that you know I only can speak, read and understand English and Farsi.
I was told by the CANADIAN Library and TB that, "...according to the Imam's wishes it has been removed from the publications and circulation." I think it was back in mid 1980s when the Ismaili constitution was published.
Just let me know when and where I can pickup the copy.

[kmaherali]

As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on.

MHI made the following Farman on Dec 7, 1961 in Dar es Salaam.

"I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own."

[unnalhaq]

As you know times change and Imam knows when its time to help everyone move on.

MHI made the following Farman on Dec 7, 1961 in Dar es Salaam.

"I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own."

I understand that, at the same token there are two things plus 3rd on for your thoughts,
1- 48th Imam had said that "you must follow the farmans of the Imam of the time." And the time when the current Ismaili Constitution given to us at that time the KIM was removed by the present Imam.
2- The 1961 Dar es Salaam farman given to just that region/country? Also the most recent farmans supersedes the previous ones.
3- 48th Imam had also made the farman to go to Burma (in 1890s) does that mean we all should pack up and go to Myanmar (Burma)?

[kmaherali]

I understand that, at the same token there are two things plus 3rd on for your thoughts,
1- 48th Imam had said that "you must follow the farmans of the Imam of the time." And the time when the current Ismaili Constitution given to us at that time the KIM was removed by the present Imam.
2- The 1961 Dar es Salaam farman given to just that region/country? Also the most recent farmans supersedes the previous ones.
3- 48th Imam had also made the farman to go to Burma (in 1890s) does that mean we all should pack up and go to Myanmar (Burma)?

It is a good discussion! Yes there are Farmans that are context bound and there are those that are timeless. Those Farmans that are not superseded by current Farmans should prevail. I have not heard a Farman of the Imam about discontinuation of KIM nor about discarding the philosophy of Das Avatar. It does not state in the constitution that KIM should be discarded.

[unnalhaq]

It is a good discussion! Yes there are Farmans that are context bound and there are those that are timeless. Those Farmans that are not superseded by current Farmans should prevail. I have not heard a Farman of the Imam about discontinuation of KIM nor about discarding the philosophy of Das Avatar. It does not state in the constitution that KIM should be discarded.

I did not say that it was in the constitution that KIM should be discarded. What I am saying is that:
I was told buy the CANADIAN Jamet Khana Library and Tariqa board that it was taken out of Publication and Circulation upon The Imam's wishes around the same time (coinsideing) with the new Ismaili Constitution.
I was also told that Noor-e-Mobin was pulled too.

[ShamsB]

It is a good discussion! Yes there are Farmans that are context bound and there are those that are timeless. Those Farmans that are not superseded by current Farmans should prevail. I have not heard a Farman of the Imam about discontinuation of KIM nor about discarding the philosophy of Das Avatar. It does not state in the constitution that KIM should be discarded.

I did not say that it was in the constitution that KIM should be discarded. What I am saying is that:
I was told buy the CANADIAN Jamet Khana Library and Tariqa board that it was taken out of Publication and Circulation upon The Imam's wishes around the same time (coinsideing) with the new Ismaili Constitution.
I was also told that Noor-e-Mobin was pulled too.

Unnalhaq,
I tried looking for the specific message where one talks about the Das Avatar and explains it in the Quranic context..i.e. mention of the das avatar in the quran..we have numerous threads on those, I am sure if you dig around on the site you will find them...and the folks we have on here have discussed it in great detail and there are a number of farmans by MSMS and maybe a couple of old ones by MHI that were made to various mandlis that you might be able to get a hold of to study..
Das Avatar falls in line with our belief that the world would perish instantly without an imam...
i.e. With Musa, Harun was the imam, with Isa, Simon Peter was the imam..with mohammed Ali was the imam..etc...and we are told that Allah sent 124,000 prophets to every race on the planet thus every race...also i know this might be difficult for you to obtain and translate..if you look at the old dua..by Pir Sadardeen (SA)..we used to say the names of all the imams and the pirs..
I hope this helps.

With Ya Ali Madat.

Shams

[kmaherali]

[Unnalhaq,
I tried looking for the specific message where one talks about the Das Avatar and explains it in the Quranic context..i.e. mention of the das avatar in the quran..

YAM

The following is an excerpt of one of my posts in another discussion.

As the Quran is one of your primary sources of authority, I will reproduce an interpretation of the sura Al- Fajr given by kandani in another forum as under.

"89:1 - I swear by the Dawn
89:2 - And the Ten Nights,
89:3 - And the Even and the Odd,
89:4 - And the night when it departeth,
89:5 - There surely is an oath for thinking man

In the above verse, the Dawn refers to the period of Qiyamat when the Haqiqat will be accessible to all people and each will have a glimpse (deedar) of God’s Light through the Qaim al-Qiyamat (The Imam who is the Bringer of Resurrection). The Prophet Muhammad has said that Mawlana Ali will raise the banner of Qiyamat and announce it to the world. The Ten Nights refer to ten previous periods or Cycles of Screening, the tenth period being our own cycle where the Religious Law or Shariah acts as a veil in which the true gnosis (Haqiqat) is hidden. Each night is then proceeded by a Dawn or Resurrection period. The Ten Avatars correspond to the Ten Nights and Dawns. We are in the final Night and awaiting the Dawn when the Manifest Imam, the Tenth Avatar, will reveal his Imamat globally."

How would you interprete the above without the notion of Das Avtaar?

[unnalhaq]

In the above verse, the Dawn refers to the period of Qiyamat when the Haqiqat will be accessible to all people and each will have a glimpse (deedar) of God’s Light through the Qaim

Now we are talking "Qaim" from what is in our (Persian) literature is that His name or Title would be "Qaim" and is to be the 51st Imam. Someday if you get a chance look into (probably ask Abuali Missionary) why some numbers have some significance to it 51 being one of them!

The Ten Nights refer to ten previous periods or Cycles of Screening, the tenth period being our own cycle where the Religious Law or Shariah acts as a veil in which the true gnosis (Haqiqat) is hidden.

How would you interprete the above without the notion of Das Avtaar

I don't buy it. That the Ten Nights is the correct interpretation, sorry.

[kmaherali]

Now we are talking "Qaim" from what is in our (Persian) literature is that His name or Title would be "Qaim" and is to be the 51st Imam. Someday if you get a chance look into (probably ask Abuali Missionary) why some numbers have some significance to it 51 being one of them!

That is a real possibility given the scale of the activities of MHI. I would like to know the Persian sources and how it is stated in them.

I don't buy it. That the Ten Nights is the correct interpretation, sorry.

You don't have to agree with everything...
I am interested to know how you would react to the real story mentioned under: Anecdotes -> Darshan of Das Avataar.

[nagib]

[quote="kmaherali"
"I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own."[/quote]

YAM to all,

I want to add my understanding of the validity of Farmans.

I have been through many farmans of the last 4 Imams and have seen one patern. Each Imam, in the begining of his accession to the Imamat confirms all the farmans made by the previous Imam. Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah went further and said to the Ismailia associations that they should read and PUBLISH farmans od Aga Ali Shah Aand Aga Hassanali Shah also.. which they never did.

So all the farmans of the previous Imams are valid up to the time that the present Imam abrogates of changes the farmans. When Imam changes one farman, that farman only is abrogated, all other previous farmans are available. Changing of the body does not nullify any farman. people who say this Imam's or that Imam's farmans are not anymore relevant are giving importance to the body, they fail to see the continuity of the Light which goes from one body to the next.

Someone had asked Hazar Imam about those old farmans of Sultan Muhammad Shah still being read in some Jamatkhana and the reply he gave was "what's wrong with reading farmans of my grandfather. People are even reading the Quran which is much more older!"

Let us also not forget that the first farman Sultan Muhammad Shah made at age 8 when he became Imam was two and half hours long and he was not reading from papers...

So let us not go faster then the Imam. Let us all wait for his instructions instead of abrogating ourselfs individualy or in bulk farmans or worse, entire farman books based only on rumours that we have heard.

Nagib

[unnalhaq]

...also i know this might be difficult for you to obtain and translate..if you look at the old dua..by Pir Sadardeen (SA)..we used to say the names of all the imams and the pirs..
I hope this helps.

With Ya Ali Madat.

Shams

Shams, I know it is very difficult for both of us when we both come from two different traditions within Ismaili Faith. Keeping that in mind how do you expect me take a look at the "old dua" Because the current dua as is was introduced to all Khoja communities and some Syrian-arab Isamili communities about 50 years ago by the present Imam (& his brother) before he assented to the Imamate. To me and my family and community it’s less than 20-22 years ago. I remember our salat (in the old country) was a lot different than what is practiced in Khoja Jamet Khanas. We were thought tolerance and diversity before we started to attend in congregations with other Ismailis (Khojas). I have to admit that we (her on, "we" meaning my family and other Persio-Isamilis) did not adapt to many of the Khoja-Traditions however, we take part in limited capacity. To give you an example or two, we respect the Ginans in light of what it means to the others (Khoja-Ismailis, Imamshahis and a few others), we respect the pirs in the same way. This does not mean in anyway that we accept the beliefs as they are believed by the others (Khoja-Ismailis, ImamShahis and a few others). So it becomes harder for me to go look into something that is written in Ginans or said in reference to the Pirs, (please understand that I am not comparing pirs to Deepak-copra or other self-help gurus) is like go read what Deepak-copra or Dali-Lama or Louis Farakhan's books. I know it would be hard for many of you to understand what I am trying to explain because your tradition is the only tradition of Ismaili you have experienced.
As I have said before there is Imam and I and nothing in-between.

[star_munir]

If Ismailis think that Ismailism is better than other sects of Islam and other religion then their this thinking is right and you may have heard Farmans that Ismailism is best religion.
But if some ismailis consider that ismailis are better than people who follow other sects of Islam or other religion than they are wrong as it is clear in Farman Mubarak.
If Ismailis will start thinking that Ismailism is not the best religion as compare to other than what is the purpose to be ismaili?
But as Ismailism is best but we can not say that all Ismailis are best as there are good and bad people in every religion.

Now as far as concept of Das Avtar is concerned. There is waez of Abu Ali missionary on topic of Das Avtar inwhich he tried eplaining the concept of Das Avtar from Islamic and Scientific point of views. May you get it from Jk Library or some where else..

[star_munir]

An Ismaili can not say that as I do not live in Saudi Arabia the Farmans of Imam Ali is not important for us or I will not follow it. An Ismaili can not say as I do not live in France and dont know English I will repect Farmans of Hazir Imam but will not follow it or believe it. Same is for Ginans of Ismaili Pir. An Ismaili have to believe and follow Imam and Pir. Hazir Imam is our Current Imam and Pir. The importance of Ginan in Ismailism is clear from Farmans made by Hazir Imam and Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. The Ginans of Pir are equally important for all ismailis be it Khoja or not .

[star_munir]

An Ismaili can not say that as I do not live in Saudi Arabia the Farmans of Imam Ali is not important for us or I will not follow it. An Ismaili can not say as I do not live in France and dont know English I will repect Farmans of Hazir Imam but will not follow it or believe it. Same is for Ginans of Ismaili Pir. An Ismaili have to believe and follow Imam and Pir. Hazir Imam is our Current Imam and Pir. The importance of Ginan in Ismailism is clear from Farmans made by Hazir Imam and Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah. The Ginans of Pir are equally important for all ismailis be it Khoja or not .