"Ali Sahi Allah" from Asal Dua, Nusayri

[ShamsB]

Some Muslims will never be convinced that Quran in our hand is same as recited by Hz Ali from memory.

ZZNoor,
You need to read history first, Hazarat Ali went to those peoples who were gathered over there to compiling the Quran and told them I have real Quran same as prophet Mohammed uttered from his holy mouth but compiling committee didn't accepted that Quran so, H. Ali went back with whatever Quran he had. so you can not say that whatever Quran we have is from the memory of H. Ali!.

I get brother

Admin has made it clear Ismaili stand as follows

On what authority are you pretending this?

On authority of our Imam Mowlana sultana Muhammad Shah we know that according to the explanation given in His Farman, Mowlana Ali went to the people compiling the Quran and offered his accurate unadulterated copy but they told him they did not need it as they would compiled their own. At that time Hazrat Ali put his copy under his arm and turn back saying "you will not get the real Quran up to the end of time (Qiyamat) ". He respected his promise.

So we will have to wait for Qiyamat for it but at that time we all will be in turmoil and we will have no time to read it.
In meanwhile we just play game which Aya is authentic and which is forged.

Yeah - we don't have to.

have fun standing in line.

Shams

[ShamsB]

My goodness, you guys are still fighting it out !!!

Can't we refer to the holy quran and settle this once and for all ???

21:73

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

32:24

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

17:71

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams

You have no idea

To further allude, please carefully read the following verse. It appears as if God is speaking in third person, but is He?

There is no God except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. (6:102)

This will require deeper discussion; whoever wants to take this verse to the next level, please let me know. Secrets are hidden in this verse.

It's interesting that you can't figure out our Du'a but are dabbling in matters way beyond that.

Start with understanding the Du'a and you'll get all your answers.

Shams

[nuseri]

To ShamsB.Ya Ali madad.
your point well taken n respected.
from my point of view n conviction
Quran n Farmans are from divine word divinity itself an absolute order/etc.
while genuine hadiths n Ginans are word of divine person ordained by
ALI.
Ginan are traditions to be upholded.
Farmans/Tariqa are to be followed.
The sub sects of Shia may be 60 of them has come from following some one close to imams family and engineered the breakaway.
we are sath panthi and not pir panthi.
in Khoja history many became follower of xyz pir,as they followed the teaching of the Pir's only.
One is the NOOR itslef and one is blessed with Noor for that life or period.
Pir has a high status as closest to or evena part of Ahle bayt.
their words are not the absolute words of Allah/God/ ALI.
it is that their words divinely inspired.
The words of Quran n farmans are law unto itself.
while genuine Hadith n Ginans are not.
they direct to the NOOR but not the absolute NOOR themselves.They do rise above ALI but at quasi par level9a shade lower) than ALI even if they from Ahle bayt.

Pir/prophets do NOT speak in first person as ALLAH/ALI,but at Baatin level interpretation they do sound from that very source.(not easy for layman).

[nuseri]

sorry a mistake
please read 'they do NOT rise'

[tret]

My goodness, you guys are still fighting it out !!!

Can't we refer to the holy quran and settle this once and for all ???

21:73

And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;

32:24

And We made of them Imams to guide by Our command when they were patient, and they were certain of Our communications.

17:71

(Remember) the day when We will call every people with their Imam; then whoever is given his book in his right hand, these shall read their book; and they shall not be dealt with a whit unjustly.


All of the above aayat's indicate that there is somebody above the holy imams

You have no idea

To further allude, please carefully read the following verse. It appears as if God is speaking in third person, but is He?

There is no God except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. (6:102)

This will require deeper discussion; whoever wants to take this verse to the next level, please let me know. Secrets are hidden in this verse.

It's interesting that you can't figure out our Du'a but are dabbling in matters way beyond that.

Start with understanding the Du'a and you'll get all your answers.

Shams

Right! You are the all knowing. So, please can you enlighten us, about the following, then?

You also assumed that I don't know Du'a! Maybe I do, or maybe I don't; only Maula knows best. But, can you let me know how did you draw this conclusion that I don't know our Du'a? But, you certainly imply that you do know Du'a. Then I would like you to please explain the last part of our Du'a [Surah Ikhlas] and explain your understanding. I know you have shied away once, but I'd like you this time not to ignore my question about surah Ikhlas, if you have any clue what it mean

I believe one of the most important surah of in the entire Qur'an is surah Ikhlas, and one must really try to understand it or at leat try to understand it.

[tret]

Only difference is that I would hold Ginans above Qasidas - unless the Qasidas are written by Imams or the Pirs (imam Mustawda).
Ginans written by Pirs (Imam Mustawda) to me have the status of Farmans.

Shams

Is this your assumption that Qasidas are written by others? Or you actually know it for fact?

If it's simple assumption, then how would you draw the conclusion?

Do you know who were the Hujjat[Pir] during Imam Mustansir billah?

I stated my ignorance about Ginan; however, I didn't discriminate the status of Ginan. However, when you make that assertion, either you must know entirely Qasidas, as well as Ginans to make the comparison and draw the conclusion. Otherwise your conclusion is biased and influenced based on background and history.

FYI, Nasir-e-Khusraw was Hujjat-e-Azam of his time [Hujjat = Pir].

Nope

You are WRONG.
Read what you wrote...you just equated Nasir Khusraw to Hazar Imam - because according to the will of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - Hazar Imam is our Imam and Pir - i.e. 49th Imam and 50th Pir.

In order to be an Imam Mustawda (Living PIR) you have to be from Ahle Bayt.
The PIR/IMAM MUSTAWDA during the time of Imam Mustansirbillah the first was
Pir Mohammad Nuruddin i.e. Pir Satgur Noor - who was sent to India.
And he was from the Ahl -e- Bayt.
Now - there are individuals that the Imam can give the TITLE of a PIR to..POSTHOMOUSLY...that doesn't make them the Imam-Mustawda.

If you read the list of 50 Pirs - you will not find Nasir Khusraw or Hasan Bin Sabah or Pir Sabzali or Pir Ismail Gangji in them.
and this was the list recited in the old Du'a.

This is when i say - you are unable to grasp what we're saying.

FYI - HUJJAT does not EQUAL IMAM MUSTAWDA (which is the correct terminology for the 50 PIRS descended from Ahl-e-Bayt) i.e. those with the status of the Prophet as first PIR/Imam Mustawda.

and I'll preempt your "claim" that the Central Asians don't follow this by saying that they do, as do the Chinese Ismailies (once again - first hand information and confirmation as I type). I posted the link to "on the recognition of the Imam" - a badakshani/central asian text - and lo and behold - I have found that the Chinese Ismailies have a similar text - where they lay out the same structure as Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Ismailies and we are very much in synch and agreement.

The issue is semantic - just as the muslims have many meanings for the word Mowla and Imam - thus do the Central Asians - to them Pir is a title for Revered Teacher. It is a sign of respect- not of authority.

So first..learn about Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustaqir - you seem to be so keen to go to the "Arab" forms of Islam - I am taking you back to the early evolution of the Ismaili faith in the Arabic context - why is that so hard?

Or out of your depth?

You will not find the word "PIR" in arabic texts or text predating the Persian period in our history - because P is not a consonant in the Arabic vocabulary/language.

The word to seek is Imam Mustawda - thus Pir Hasan is also known as Imam Hasan; as he was the Imam Mustawda - i.e. appointed Imam not inherited Imam.

Only those from Ahl-e-Bayt can be appointed Imam-Mustawda and then only by the Imam-Mustaqar.
and Imam-Mustaqar is hereditary - Imam-Mustawda is not.

Please - you claim to have knowledge of your tradition - please read up on what they actually believe versus give us layman's interpretations and claim to be an expert.
Shams

BTW, do you know the rank and role of Hujjat in ismaili tariqa? I'd like you to give a very brief explanation of who Hujjat is in our tariqa -- again, if you have any clue, or if you believe in Hujjat at all, since the term may not be according to your convenience --, since you are apparently the PhD and I'd certainly appreciate a glimpse of your knowledge.


While I agree with most of what you explained about Imam Mustaqar and Imam Mustawdah; I would like you to clarify the following: As always, references is appreciated to backup your assertion, and not only your convention and conviction.

You mentioned the Prophet was our first Pir. I have heard it actually before; but as you know better Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Pir[Imam-e-Mustawdah]. So, if your assertion is correct that Maula Ali is Imam-e-Mustawqar at his time and The Prophet is Imam-e-Mustawdah at his time. Then did Maula Ali appoint the Prophet as Pir? Did Maula Ali declare anywhere? Any historical evidence and reference?

But on the contrary, we have authentic hadis and historical reference of the event of Ghadir-e-Khum which is entirely endorsed by all Shias as well as Sunnies [Only sunnies have different interpretation, but nonetheless it's widely accepted], where The Prophet said "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula". So, according to our understanding Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Imam-e-Mustawdah, not the other way around!

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

Just for your information, I have never declared or implied that I am an expert or I know everything. I have repeatedly said that I don't know and I am still learning, and knowledge is an endless ocean.

[tret]

Ya Ali madad.
Allah manifesting/appearing as Imam/ALI is straight forward one or two line declaration in farman ,tasbih,ginan qasidas.
no need from an outsider to tell the children 'who the father is?'
father himself n insiders(pir/ dai) has told us.
There is no rocket science in it, it isthe depth n blessing of one's conviction.
all the crap doctrine tweaking assumptions unseen n unproven is a waste of space in the forum.
if one is cursed with disbelief he waits for next phase of many lives till blessed to born as true ismaili.if one does not elevate his conviction
A true Ismaili does not doubt or challenge Farmans.
He has absolute faith in what Imam say is absolute TRUE.
He follows it 100% not 99.9% level.
In farman of Imam SMS.
HE valued an Ismaili equal to 1000 non believers in the world.
and in another farman a haqiqati momin equaling to 100000 non believers.
is a rare commodity.
True Ismaili draws it faith from JK material n not outside sources.
any outside source material approved n acknowledge by Imams
can be taken a supplementary information for academic pursuit
for scholars and Al waez.
What is ordered daily is 'Inspiration of Faith' and not 'academic of religion'.

A cunning person can mingle data from both and create a disaster posting.

an analogy.
Some book of faith/sufi says 'Water is Life".
iIn a general statement on website mentions
the water flowing is sewage stinks like hell.
both look true to level of readers.
a cunning devil can rephrase as to lower status of Life
by re composing is as
" Life stinks like hell'.
90% of your posting is in this category.
10% copy pasting of blessed Persian Sufis
which sound fair n haqiqati.


For a true Ismaili for his final exam.ALI will determine n bless him/her
is how good he/ is on one word blessed upon him.
and not many thousand memorized from academic material.

Any discovery made from universe existing creations is a 'finding' which existed
and not a rocket science or invention/machine made made material
Discovery n Invention have different meaning.

I few replies back, I mentioned in one of my posts, which you may have overlooked. But I repeat again.

No body cares about your conviction. Your conviction is yours alone, and none of my business. I don't care how much you love Ali. Similarly, you don't care how much I love Ali, and about my conviction, because my conviction is mine alone, and I don't want to tell you how much Iman or love I have towards my Maula. This is because relationship between murid and Murish is a one to one, personal relationship.

What I want you to provide evidence, knowledge, information. I understand you try to provide examples, analogies to prove your conviction, but credible references are more appreciated and build your credibility as an individual.

Again on your assertion of 'no rocket science'.

My good friend. This topic of 'God, Creation' what we are discussing, has been the central question to mankind and everyone from each religion have been pondering to get a concrete and definitive answer. But, still all mankind comes up with is 'unknown' and 'mystery'.

I gave you example of science, since you referenced science. You are so simplistically saying that Ali is Allah, and that's it! problem solved!

By this way of mentality, you want to stay where you are. May be it's in the dark, maybe you are already there. I don't know. but to stop seeking knowledge, is definitely I don't believe one should settle down for.

[tret]

To all Ali=Allah club members, I'd like to share the following with you from a "Knowledge and Liberation" which is published by IIS. I am just quoting one passage, which is relevant to our topic of discussion.

I know most of you will call this crap, but I really want us to reflect on this. The concept described in this book can be found in numerous other books including the one referenced by ShamsB, "Paradise of Submission" and many more...

Know, O brother, that all the Messengers who came brought the message of the Universal Soul with the spiritual help o f the Universal Intellect from the Divine Word. The Messenger is called the natiq meaning one who speaks [or enunciates], and the speech belongs to the Universal Soul by whom the natiq, is sent.

[ 176] Now, logic dictates that a message to speaking beings is sent by one who himself is a speaker. I t is on account of this that those people who said Muhammad is God or the group who said 'Ali is God fell into error. The Prophet and the legatees (wasi) are disgusted with them, and those with whom the Prophet is disgusted, God is also disgusted. These people are called the Mimiyya and the 'Ayniyya, who thought that unless
[Muhammad and Ali] were one with God their sender, they would not have been able to accept His message. These people committed this error because they were not able to recognize the [proper] ranks (hudud) of religion.

[Admin]

Obviously you do not know about the Usul-e-Din Farman.

[tret]

Obviously you do not know about the Usul-e-Din Farman.

Not sure if it's addressed to me?

I know Usul-e-Din, but I don't know about Farman on Usul-e-Din. Can you share what it is? Or some details on date/place, please?

[sheri]

Your use of the word "interpreted" displays uncertainty. "Sahi" is not a Gujarati word

Who told you that Sahi is not Gujarati word? matter of fact it is still used in North Gujarat, I have many friends they use sahi words in the their daily talk! Don't forget that I have doctorate degree in Gujarati.

Below is the proof.

સહી
No. Type Pronunciation Meaning
1 f., a., adv. signature. a. true. adv. granted, agreed; certainly.

Agakhani - you finally cleared my doubts. It's great to know that the meaning is "signature." I agree with the definition of 'Sahi'. Mawla is definitely a signature (proof) of Allah.

This is the most commonly posted definition for the word "Sahi" and it is totally in line with the constitution wherein it says: "Mazhar of God", and the Dua: "Aliyuallah." Quite amazed by consistency of our beliefs.

[a_27826]

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

If the old "Dua" says the Prophet being the first Pir, isn't that enough ?


Regarding "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula" meaning "Ali is the Lord of those whose Lord I am"
What makes you think the above declaration is about appointing ?

[tret]

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

If the old "Dua" says the Prophet being the first Pir, isn't that enough ?


Regarding "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula" meaning "Ali is the Lord of those whose Lord I am"
What makes you think the above declaration is about appointing ?

About old Dua: the old Dua that i know for central asian jamat doesnt have any such reference.

About ghadir e khum event; so basically you are taking sunni's position. Thats what exactly they say. For your information please see the following quote, I posted from ismaili constitution that spells out appointment of Maula Ali as rightful successor. So, do you not accept the Ismaili Constitution?

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
to tret you are again at your barking best. IIS has lot of sunni/shia material,needed for resarch on how they view shia n it's subsect.

Firstly at Haqiqat level it is ALI/allah with divine blessing appointed mohammed.
not prophet appointed Allah.
after Meraj and certain period prophets made the zahiri declaration of ALI at Imam n onward continuity of Imamat.
propheted was haqiqat and ghadir what was seen was tariqat n zahiri.
only donkeys n dog dance on it.

If sufi says essence of 'water as Life'.
you will search the data
which will water as life giving,sustaining ALI.
but few farmans n qasidas n ginans.

admin has posted a Farman of Imam SMS of wadi.
I also understand in last years of imam SMS made by wadi,farman were also recorded.

challenge it word by word.
i will put lines of qasidas confirming that farman n status of ALI/IMAM/GOD.
at haqiqat conviction just replace the word Allah with ALI and reread those lines and debate.
it is said Quran is Baatin n not for dogs n donkies.

Mostly all qasidas straightaway say ALI is GOD.
let us start each one few verses every week.
Only you are one BIG black sheep from that area is boasting of them
.copy pasting in wrong manner to suit your point.
ZZnoor being an ex Ismaili would be having more respect for Imam
than you.
you are now trying to drown yourself of Anti ALI,who is none other than Allah.
if He wishes you see what he stored for you in this life n next.
your are speeding your next birth from Maple leaf zone to Boko haram zone.keep watching your face in mirror to see how your conviction is reflected. A LIVE CHALLENGE TO IMAM DISLIKERS N HATERS OF THE WORLD.
forget millions of word see answer on your face as nobody can change it
except ALI in this living life.
Next life is either as ASH in volcano or if done some good deed it would surely Boko Haram zone to enjoy few thousand years.

Words of dead imam disliker or scholars does not change ALI, but your facial features will tell you how you are headed.

[ShamsB]

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

If the old "Dua" says the Prophet being the first Pir, isn't that enough ?


Regarding "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula" meaning "Ali is the Lord of those whose Lord I am"
What makes you think the above declaration is about appointing ?

About old Dua: the old Dua that i know for central asian jamat doesnt have any such reference.

About ghadir e khum event; so basically you are taking sunni's position. Thats what exactly they say. For your information please see the following quote, I posted from ismaili constitution that spells out appointment of Maula Ali as rightful successor. So, do you not accept the Ismaili Constitution?

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

To your assertion that the Central Asian Jamat didn't have the old Du'a - i'd say you're wrong.
And this isn't based on heresay - but rather research and first hand experience.
Even the older Chinese Ismailies know the old Du'a - which btw - wasn't in Hindi or Gujrati alone - but actually had Sindhi and Sanskrit interwoven with a lot of Arabic and Farsi - actually more Arabic and Farsi - and the Arabic portions mostly comprise our present du'a. The Sindhi and Sanskrit prayers migrated into our other practices - our tasbish and can be practised in the languages of the different jamats.

The prayer used for Du'a karavi - from the Du'a. The prayers offered by Mukhi/Kamadia Sahebaan - from the Old Du'a. The Giryizari Tasbih - from the old dua.

In the Central Asian Tradition - because of the Communist Governments -which not only forbade Ismaili practises but all other religious practises - so the notion you talk about going to a masjid to pray - was out the window.
The Tajikis incorporated the practises into architecture - into other cultural practices (Chirag-e-Roshan) which btw is eerily similar to Funerary and Post Funerary practises of the Indo-Sub Pak Ismailies as well - so much for your claims that they're hindusitic....

But going back to the notion of the old Du'a - most ismaili youth weren't introduced to the faith until the age of 18, they weren't taught Du'a till the age of 18 - neither the new nor the old Du'a. Taqiyya was very heavily practised.
So people that actually know how to recite the old Du'a -in Central Asia are few and far beyond - you have to do the research versus making a blanket statement...


Shams

[ShamsB]

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

If the old "Dua" says the Prophet being the first Pir, isn't that enough ?


Regarding "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula" meaning "Ali is the Lord of those whose Lord I am"
What makes you think the above declaration is about appointing ?

Tret -

When do you think Hazrat Ali became the Imam?
Upon the "appointment"?

The old Du'a did say the Prophet was the first Pir - and the old Du'a did say
Ali Mohammed Yaq Khuda - Haq Shanasi Dafe Baala.

There is a Hadith of the Prophet - Ali and I are from the Same Noor.

Are you now telling us that the Prophet wasn't being honest?
or that our fellow Ismailies over the centuries were reciting the wrong du'a? and that the Imams and Pirs were lying to them?

Keep in mind that it was these Imams and Pirs that made changes to the Old Du'a and to the current Du'a.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Is this your assumption that Qasidas are written by others? Or you actually know it for fact?

If it's simple assumption, then how would you draw the conclusion?

Do you know who were the Hujjat[Pir] during Imam Mustansir billah?

I stated my ignorance about Ginan; however, I didn't discriminate the status of Ginan. However, when you make that assertion, either you must know entirely Qasidas, as well as Ginans to make the comparison and draw the conclusion. Otherwise your conclusion is biased and influenced based on background and history.

FYI, Nasir-e-Khusraw was Hujjat-e-Azam of his time [Hujjat = Pir].

Nope

You are WRONG.
Read what you wrote...you just equated Nasir Khusraw to Hazar Imam - because according to the will of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - Hazar Imam is our Imam and Pir - i.e. 49th Imam and 50th Pir.

In order to be an Imam Mustawda (Living PIR) you have to be from Ahle Bayt.
The PIR/IMAM MUSTAWDA during the time of Imam Mustansirbillah the first was
Pir Mohammad Nuruddin i.e. Pir Satgur Noor - who was sent to India.
And he was from the Ahl -e- Bayt.
Now - there are individuals that the Imam can give the TITLE of a PIR to..POSTHOMOUSLY...that doesn't make them the Imam-Mustawda.

If you read the list of 50 Pirs - you will not find Nasir Khusraw or Hasan Bin Sabah or Pir Sabzali or Pir Ismail Gangji in them.
and this was the list recited in the old Du'a.

This is when i say - you are unable to grasp what we're saying.

FYI - HUJJAT does not EQUAL IMAM MUSTAWDA (which is the correct terminology for the 50 PIRS descended from Ahl-e-Bayt) i.e. those with the status of the Prophet as first PIR/Imam Mustawda.

and I'll preempt your "claim" that the Central Asians don't follow this by saying that they do, as do the Chinese Ismailies (once again - first hand information and confirmation as I type). I posted the link to "on the recognition of the Imam" - a badakshani/central asian text - and lo and behold - I have found that the Chinese Ismailies have a similar text - where they lay out the same structure as Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Ismailies and we are very much in synch and agreement.

The issue is semantic - just as the muslims have many meanings for the word Mowla and Imam - thus do the Central Asians - to them Pir is a title for Revered Teacher. It is a sign of respect- not of authority.

So first..learn about Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustaqir - you seem to be so keen to go to the "Arab" forms of Islam - I am taking you back to the early evolution of the Ismaili faith in the Arabic context - why is that so hard?

Or out of your depth?

You will not find the word "PIR" in arabic texts or text predating the Persian period in our history - because P is not a consonant in the Arabic vocabulary/language.

The word to seek is Imam Mustawda - thus Pir Hasan is also known as Imam Hasan; as he was the Imam Mustawda - i.e. appointed Imam not inherited Imam.

Only those from Ahl-e-Bayt can be appointed Imam-Mustawda and then only by the Imam-Mustaqar.
and Imam-Mustaqar is hereditary - Imam-Mustawda is not.

Please - you claim to have knowledge of your tradition - please read up on what they actually believe versus give us layman's interpretations and claim to be an expert.
Shams

BTW, do you know the rank and role of Hujjat in ismaili tariqa? I'd like you to give a very brief explanation of who Hujjat is in our tariqa -- again, if you have any clue, or if you believe in Hujjat at all, since the term may not be according to your convenience --, since you are apparently the PhD and I'd certainly appreciate a glimpse of your knowledge.


While I agree with most of what you explained about Imam Mustaqar and Imam Mustawdah; I would like you to clarify the following: As always, references is appreciated to backup your assertion, and not only your convention and conviction.

You mentioned the Prophet was our first Pir. I have heard it actually before; but as you know better Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Pir[Imam-e-Mustawdah]. So, if your assertion is correct that Maula Ali is Imam-e-Mustawqar at his time and The Prophet is Imam-e-Mustawdah at his time. Then did Maula Ali appoint the Prophet as Pir? Did Maula Ali declare anywhere? Any historical evidence and reference?

But on the contrary, we have authentic hadis and historical reference of the event of Ghadir-e-Khum which is entirely endorsed by all Shias as well as Sunnies [Only sunnies have different interpretation, but nonetheless it's widely accepted], where The Prophet said "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula". So, according to our understanding Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Imam-e-Mustawdah, not the other way around!

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

Just for your information, I have never declared or implied that I am an expert or I know everything. I have repeatedly said that I don't know and I am still learning, and knowledge is an endless ocean.

Once again - When do you think Hazrat Ali became the Imam?

FYI - if you have understood the notion of Pre Ali Imams (and based upon your above assertion - I doubt that you have) - you will have the answer to your own question.

In regards to the Hujjat - Hujjat is PROOF of Imamat. Hassan bin Sabah was also the Hujjat of the Imam - since he was also posthumously given the title of Pir.
So - Hassan Bin Sabah and Nasir Khusraw were contemporaries (I think have been around the same time period - Imam Mustansirbillah I) - may have even met - and both were Hujjats?

There can be many Hujjats - but only one IMAM and one PIR at a time.

Also to answer your question about Prophet Mohammed being appointed 1st Pir -
When do you think Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah also became the Pir?
Upon his ascension to the Imamat? or before or after? under what circumstances?

In regards to the role of Hujjat and Imam Mustawda - I've already directed you to Central Asian text that describes this very well.

Hujjat is a lower rank that the Imam Mustawda - Hazar Imam is our Imam Mustaqar and Mustawada at this time.

Are you suggesting that the Hujjat is a higher rank than that of the Imam Mustawda?

Isn't that trying to impress cultural and ethnic superiority?

And going back to the Hassan Bin Sabah vs Nasir Khusraw comparison?
Why not refer to Hasan Bin Sabah as a Hujjat as well.

Keep in mind - I am not degrading the role of the Hujjat - I am differentiating the status of a Hujjat versus that of an Imam Mustawda.

All of our Imam Mustawdas even Pir Sarkar Bibi Maryum Khatun - who was the grand daughter of an Imam, the Wife of an Imam, the mother and grandmother of Imams - the daughter of an Imam Mustawda - were from the Ahl-e-Bayt.

Hassan Bin Sabah, Nasir Khusraw, Abdul Malik Atash (another Hujjat who you've neglected to mention - maybe because he's not central asian) - were not from Ahl-e-Bayt, neither was Pir Sabzali or Varas Ismail Gangji - who were also accorded the titles of Pir by the Imams.

I am not denying or reducing the work done by these individuals - but they weren' the Imam Mustawda - like Pir Satgoor Noor or Pir Sadardeen or Pir Shams or Pir Shahbuddin Shah, or Pir Aga Ali Shah.

Shams

[tret]

Ya Ali Madad.
to tret you are again at your barking best. IIS has lot of sunni/shia material,needed for resarch on how they view shia n it's subsect.

Firstly at Haqiqat level it is ALI/allah with divine blessing appointed mohammed.
not prophet appointed Allah.
after Meraj and certain period prophets made the zahiri declaration of ALI at Imam n onward continuity of Imamat.
propheted was haqiqat and ghadir what was seen was tariqat n zahiri.
only donkeys n dog dance on it.

If sufi says essence of 'water as Life'.
you will search the data
which will water as life giving,sustaining ALI.
but few farmans n qasidas n ginans.

admin has posted a Farman of Imam SMS of wadi.
I also understand in last years of imam SMS made by wadi,farman were also recorded.

challenge it word by word.
i will put lines of qasidas confirming that farman n status of ALI/IMAM/GOD.
at haqiqat conviction just replace the word Allah with ALI and reread those lines and debate.
it is said Quran is Baatin n not for dogs n donkies.

Mostly all qasidas straightaway say ALI is GOD.
let us start each one few verses every week.
Only you are one BIG black sheep from that area is boasting of them
.copy pasting in wrong manner to suit your point.
ZZnoor being an ex Ismaili would be having more respect for Imam
than you.
you are now trying to drown yourself of Anti ALI,who is none other than Allah.
if He wishes you see what he stored for you in this life n next.
your are speeding your next birth from Maple leaf zone to Boko haram zone.keep watching your face in mirror to see how your conviction is reflected. A LIVE CHALLENGE TO IMAM DISLIKERS N HATERS OF THE WORLD.
forget millions of word see answer on your face as nobody can change it
except ALI in this living life.
Next life is either as ASH in volcano or if done some good deed it would surely Boko Haram zone to enjoy few thousand years.

Words of dead imam disliker or scholars does not change ALI, but your facial features will tell you how you are headed.

To nuseri -

I'd really like you to do an extensive search on the term "Mimiyya and the 'Ayniyya", and find out for yourself.

I am not sure who's barking now? I provide you data, evidence, while you are putting your personal opinion. And for your fyi, what I quoted is from the work of Nasir-e-Khusraw, whose Qasida's you are admiring, but call his work crap. How convenient is it? To select what backs up your opinion and dismiss what you don't understand, is really not faith, but convenience and our tariqa is based on conviction and not convenience to pick and choose; for example to accept some part of Du'a and dismiss the rest of it.

I'd really think that you should not worry about my face or faith; your concern will be well spent if you think about yours. After all, everyone's responsible and accountable for their actions and deeds.

You know what's funny. You sound like G. Bush, when he declared something like 'either you are with us, or against us'. Now, where did you get the idea of Ali hater or Imam hater? You are actually disrespecting and disgusting the Prophet and the Imam by saying Ali=Allah. The purpose of the all Messengers and Prophets was to deliver the message of God which is Tawhid and oneness of God to mankind. This is the principal teaching of Islam and Ismaili tariqa.

You recite 3x a day, surah Ikhlas, and I highly doubt if you understand the intention and meaning of it. Why don't we start from there?

Please nuseri - I have already mentioned that if the discussion takes this avenue of getting emotional and personal, I'd rather defer and not comment any more. I really don't want us to use dirty and low level tone which doesn't suit neither you or myself.

[Admin]

There is the Hujjat ul Imam, the Pir. He is accompagnied by the Hujjats of the 12 areas in his time. So the 12 Hujjats accompagying the Pir or the Hujat ul Imam (Imam Mustawda) do not have to be from the family of Imam not do they have the power and status of the Hujjat ul Imam.

[tret]

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

If the old "Dua" says the Prophet being the first Pir, isn't that enough ?


Regarding "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula" meaning "Ali is the Lord of those whose Lord I am"
What makes you think the above declaration is about appointing ?

Tret -

When do you think Hazrat Ali became the Imam?
Upon the "appointment"?

The old Du'a did say the Prophet was the first Pir - and the old Du'a did say
Ali Mohammed Yaq Khuda - Haq Shanasi Dafe Baala.

There is a Hadith of the Prophet - Ali and I are from the Same Noor.

Are you now telling us that the Prophet wasn't being honest?
or that our fellow Ismailies over the centuries were reciting the wrong du'a? and that the Imams and Pirs were lying to them?

Keep in mind that it was these Imams and Pirs that made changes to the Old Du'a and to the current Du'a.

Shams

Then what do you think of the Ismaili Constitution? Then that must be a lie, according to you, that Prophet Mohammad appointed Maula Ali as first Imam to continue the Tawil and Tahlim of the Final Message of God.

So, now are you implying that what's in Ismaili Constitution is a lie?

The hadis of Prophet Muhammad saying Ali and I are from same Nur. Where have I dispute that? and what's the relevance of it? and what are you trying to prove?

[tret]

Once again - When do you think Hazrat Ali became the Imam?

I answer your question by asking you a question.

When do you think MHI become the Imam? I think you are smart enough to draw the answer from it.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
please explain the Baatin of the surah word by word.
I do not pray much Dua.but breathing n living in ALI 24X7
at Baatin level the Sharia and recitation n body posturing has no role.
it is two way commune with GOD/ALI.
the word Allah without essence of ALI is like a paper to shoved in one's xyz.

replace the word Allah with Ali n rewrite the surah.
match it with farman n qasida.
you will see how much the Ismailis are blessed.
how un blessed n cursed your soul.
you are few thousand years away to be like
admin,shams,shiraz,agakhani,2782 n 103 ,starmunir.n million others.

[tret]

Nope

You are WRONG.
Read what you wrote...you just equated Nasir Khusraw to Hazar Imam - because according to the will of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah - Hazar Imam is our Imam and Pir - i.e. 49th Imam and 50th Pir.

In order to be an Imam Mustawda (Living PIR) you have to be from Ahle Bayt.
The PIR/IMAM MUSTAWDA during the time of Imam Mustansirbillah the first was
Pir Mohammad Nuruddin i.e. Pir Satgur Noor - who was sent to India.
And he was from the Ahl -e- Bayt.
Now - there are individuals that the Imam can give the TITLE of a PIR to..POSTHOMOUSLY...that doesn't make them the Imam-Mustawda.

If you read the list of 50 Pirs - you will not find Nasir Khusraw or Hasan Bin Sabah or Pir Sabzali or Pir Ismail Gangji in them.
and this was the list recited in the old Du'a.

This is when i say - you are unable to grasp what we're saying.

FYI - HUJJAT does not EQUAL IMAM MUSTAWDA (which is the correct terminology for the 50 PIRS descended from Ahl-e-Bayt) i.e. those with the status of the Prophet as first PIR/Imam Mustawda.

and I'll preempt your "claim" that the Central Asians don't follow this by saying that they do, as do the Chinese Ismailies (once again - first hand information and confirmation as I type). I posted the link to "on the recognition of the Imam" - a badakshani/central asian text - and lo and behold - I have found that the Chinese Ismailies have a similar text - where they lay out the same structure as Satpanthi or Pir Sadardeen Ismailies and we are very much in synch and agreement.

The issue is semantic - just as the muslims have many meanings for the word Mowla and Imam - thus do the Central Asians - to them Pir is a title for Revered Teacher. It is a sign of respect- not of authority.

So first..learn about Imam Mustawda and Imam Mustaqir - you seem to be so keen to go to the "Arab" forms of Islam - I am taking you back to the early evolution of the Ismaili faith in the Arabic context - why is that so hard?

Or out of your depth?

You will not find the word "PIR" in arabic texts or text predating the Persian period in our history - because P is not a consonant in the Arabic vocabulary/language.

The word to seek is Imam Mustawda - thus Pir Hasan is also known as Imam Hasan; as he was the Imam Mustawda - i.e. appointed Imam not inherited Imam.

Only those from Ahl-e-Bayt can be appointed Imam-Mustawda and then only by the Imam-Mustaqar.
and Imam-Mustaqar is hereditary - Imam-Mustawda is not.

Please - you claim to have knowledge of your tradition - please read up on what they actually believe versus give us layman's interpretations and claim to be an expert.
Shams

BTW, do you know the rank and role of Hujjat in ismaili tariqa? I'd like you to give a very brief explanation of who Hujjat is in our tariqa -- again, if you have any clue, or if you believe in Hujjat at all, since the term may not be according to your convenience --, since you are apparently the PhD and I'd certainly appreciate a glimpse of your knowledge.


While I agree with most of what you explained about Imam Mustaqar and Imam Mustawdah; I would like you to clarify the following: As always, references is appreciated to backup your assertion, and not only your convention and conviction.

You mentioned the Prophet was our first Pir. I have heard it actually before; but as you know better Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Pir[Imam-e-Mustawdah]. So, if your assertion is correct that Maula Ali is Imam-e-Mustawqar at his time and The Prophet is Imam-e-Mustawdah at his time. Then did Maula Ali appoint the Prophet as Pir? Did Maula Ali declare anywhere? Any historical evidence and reference?

But on the contrary, we have authentic hadis and historical reference of the event of Ghadir-e-Khum which is entirely endorsed by all Shias as well as Sunnies [Only sunnies have different interpretation, but nonetheless it's widely accepted], where The Prophet said "Min kunta Maula fa haza Ali Maula". So, according to our understanding Imam-e-Mustaqar appoints Imam-e-Mustawdah, not the other way around!

So, please if you can support your assertion of the Prophet being the first Pir, it'll certainly be appreciated.

Just for your information, I have never declared or implied that I am an expert or I know everything. I have repeatedly said that I don't know and I am still learning, and knowledge is an endless ocean.

Once again - When do you think Hazrat Ali became the Imam?

FYI - if you have understood the notion of Pre Ali Imams (and based upon your above assertion - I doubt that you have) - you will have the answer to your own question.

In regards to the Hujjat - Hujjat is PROOF of Imamat. Hassan bin Sabah was also the Hujjat of the Imam - since he was also posthumously given the title of Pir.
So - Hassan Bin Sabah and Nasir Khusraw were contemporaries (I think have been around the same time period - Imam Mustansirbillah I) - may have even met - and both were Hujjats?

There can be many Hujjats - but only one IMAM and one PIR at a time.

Also to answer your question about Prophet Mohammed being appointed 1st Pir -
When do you think Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah also became the Pir?
Upon his ascension to the Imamat? or before or after? under what circumstances?

In regards to the role of Hujjat and Imam Mustawda - I've already directed you to Central Asian text that describes this very well.

Hujjat is a lower rank that the Imam Mustawda - Hazar Imam is our Imam Mustaqar and Mustawada at this time.

Are you suggesting that the Hujjat is a higher rank than that of the Imam Mustawda?

Isn't that trying to impress cultural and ethnic superiority?

And going back to the Hassan Bin Sabah vs Nasir Khusraw comparison?
Why not refer to Hasan Bin Sabah as a Hujjat as well.

Keep in mind - I am not degrading the role of the Hujjat - I am differentiating the status of a Hujjat versus that of an Imam Mustawda.

All of our Imam Mustawdas even Pir Sarkar Bibi Maryum Khatun - who was the grand daughter of an Imam, the Wife of an Imam, the mother and grandmother of Imams - the daughter of an Imam Mustawda - were from the Ahl-e-Bayt.

Hassan Bin Sabah, Nasir Khusraw, Abdul Malik Atash (another Hujjat who you've neglected to mention - maybe because he's not central asian) - were not from Ahl-e-Bayt, neither was Pir Sabzali or Varas Ismail Gangji - who were also accorded the titles of Pir by the Imams.

I am not denying or reducing the work done by these individuals - but they weren' the Imam Mustawda - like Pir Satgoor Noor or Pir Sadardeen or Pir Shams or Pir Shahbuddin Shah, or Pir Aga Ali Shah.

Shams

My understanding from Pre-Alid Imamah is that Every Natiq who brings tanzil, had a Wasi [aka Asas or Legatee], who was responsible to do the Tahwil and tahlim [Same as MHI is doing]. The concept of Tahwil and Talim has been there since the begining of the spiritual world. However, the institution of Imamat formally started as Manifest Imam at Maula Ali. So, while concpet remains the same, the term has been formally different. So, please correct me if I am wrong?

About Pir and status of Pir, I have to admit I don't have as much information as you do. So, I am appreciative about it. Hassan Sabah and Nasir-e-Kusraw were contemporary and did infact meet along side with Umar-e-Khayam. Hasan Sabah was one of the unique figures [Who was also Hujjat, as you rightfully mentioned it]. However, Hassan Sabah was performing more on the political aspect, while Nasir was more on the educational and teaching aspect. Nonetheless both were functioning as the Imam was directing them.

ShamsB - Can you please provide a list of all Pirs from Maula Ali's time till today, if you can? And which Pir was during which Imam? As I said, my knowledge about this subject is limited and I certainly appreciate your knowledge in this regard.

Thanks for a good post.

[tret]

Ya Ali Madad.
please explain the Baatin of the surah word by word.
I do not pray much Dua.but breathing n living in ALI 24X7
at Baatin level the Sharia and recitation n body posturing has no role.
it is two way commune with GOD/ALI.
the word Allah without essence of ALI is like a paper to shoved in one's xyz.

replace the word Allah with Ali n rewrite the surah.
match it with farman n qasida.
you will see how much the Ismailis are blessed.
how un blessed n cursed your soul.
you are few thousand years away to be like
admin,shams,shiraz,agakhani,2782 n 103 ,starmunir.n million others.

Only Maula knows who's cursed who's not. You and I aren't in a place to judge anyone.

About surah Ikhlas, if I explain this to you, I think our discussion is futile.

So, you are considering Du'a as low level shariati and useless? What about Farmaan of MHI that repeatedly emphasize being regular at attending JK? is that useless too?

[sheri]

Ya Ali Madad.
please explain the Baatin of the surah word by word.
I do not pray much Dua.but breathing n living in ALI 24X7
at Baatin level the Sharia and recitation n body posturing has no role.
it is two way commune with GOD/ALI.
the word Allah without essence of ALI is like a paper to shoved in one's xyz.

replace the word Allah with Ali n rewrite the surah.
match it with farman n qasida.
you will see how much the Ismailis are blessed.
how un blessed n cursed your soul.
you are few thousand years away to be like
admin,shams,shiraz,agakhani,2782 n 103 ,starmunir.n million others.

Only Maula knows who's cursed who's not. You and I aren't in a place to judge anyone.

About surah Ikhlas, if I explain this to you, I think our discussion is futile.

So, you are considering Du'a as low level shariati and useless? What about Farmaan of MHI that repeatedly emphasize being regular at attending JK? is that useless too?

This is the fundamental problem with this belief of Ali=Allah. People who believe that Ali=Allah, think that somehow they have found Allah, while the other suckers have not been able to. They believe that they are the chosen people, who will be with Mawla (God) for eternity.

I have a question for these fundamentalists.

Your forefathers who were Hindus - what did they do differently than other Hindus to be chosen as THE PEOPLE who know who God Is?

All your forefathers who did not know about Ismailism before 700 years are going to go to HELL, but luckily you all will go to the Eight heaven. Why such a stark difference? Why do you deserve this?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
please read all qasida n ginan n farman closely.
it says moula ALI of just ALI precisely and not Hazarat Ali.
H.ALI i the physical Imam of 1370 years back and same is MHI today
if know him as Shah Karim al Husainy.
Moula ALI is none other than Allah.he was bfore the creation was there
not bull shit mr A telling B biuld house n shit crap.
ALI was the beginning and with introduction as Allah on earth as Hazrat
the word Imam came into use.
As there are over 300 gods name used by different religion.
All Gods name are taken as Moula Ali.
Imamat is kingdom of God himself and as Imam the cycle with Hazrat Ali
n beyond.
Rasul was moving with noor of Ali so did all prophets before him.
the noor of their is personified with Divine presence of omnipotent Moula
Ali.
As Ali is reffered by Imam,so the linkage of Imamat is from creation
as the creator and not mr A B C .He is not a mason or carpenter
to
so when an haqiqati sats ALI or moula or as said in tasbih.
he refer of GOD/ali+lah.
but when the Hazrat Ali is mentioned ,it can also refered to pyhsical
phase of first Imam in Zahiri with mention in Quran n affirmation
of Hadith.
All the fancy name of Gods of any religion is ALI,only that they passing their soul iwth ignorance n unseen god as mentioned in Quran.

i want any one to translate exact english the writing of Nasir Khusraw.
I wish to give interpret.
A shallow tariqati n imam hater cannot even understand the simple zahiri
structured words n baatin is million light years away.

I AM READY TO EXPLAIN WITHIN MY ABILITY THE TRUE TRANSLATION BY ANY HONEST ISMAILI.
we will debate forward from it.
Why don't your start with qasida,which Imams have ordered
with real true meaning .we all will participate word by word debate.
Sheri has booked your space in Boko Haram zone immediately upon your death if not born as animals.
keep seeing your face in mirror .MY CHALLENGE IS ON.
the living seeing truth n NOT shit data postings of dead persons.
KEEP BARKING .BOKO HARAM IS WAITING FOR U2.

[zznoor]

tret

No matter how you put it; as soon as you attribute anything to God almighty, you are committing a shirk.

tret
Only Maula knows who's cursed who's not. You and I aren't in a place to judge anyone.

One of the attribute of Allah is "all knowing"
To think that a human being who is thousand of miles from you knows what you are doing or thinking is also Shirk.

[tret]

tret

No matter how you put it; as soon as you attribute anything to God almighty, you are committing a shirk.

tret
Only Maula knows who's cursed who's not. You and I aren't in a place to judge anyone.

One of the attribute of Allah is "all knowing"
To think that a human being who is thousand of miles from you knows what you are doing or thinking is also Shirk.

to zznoor -
People can think whatever they want. How can me believing that my Maula knows best, is a shirk? I haven't attributed anything to the oneness of God almighty. then tell me where do you see shirk?

Where as you attributed human quality of speaking to God. That's shirk.

[tret]

to nuseri -

I refrained once to stop discussing with you, because the discussion was taking an unhealthy direction. I should have stopped it. I see again, your dirty tones and very low-level style of discussion which is not suitable for a wise man at all. Therefore, I am refraining from replying to your post from here onward. For me, you have lost your rights to be discussed with. But, before I do so, just want to say few last words. Maula Ali says "Don't look at who's talking; look at what's he saying". I have always listened to the content of a post, not necessarily who's saying it.


You keep shouting qasida qasida qasida, but you fail to recognize that the same person who composed all those beautiful qasidas, whose work you call crap, bullshit. I am not sure how would you pick one's work and dismiss the others? To understand the qasidas, I strongly suggest you to read their work as well.



I really would like you to do a search on Mimiyya and the Ayniyya I posted you a reference where the Hujjat of Imam says about these group of people.

Know, O brother, that all the Messengers who came brought the message of the Universal Soul with the spiritual help o f the Universal Intellect from the Divine Word. The Messenger is called the natiq meaning one who speaks [or enunciates], and the speech belongs to the Universal Soul by whom the natiq, is sent.

[ 176] Now, logic dictates that a message to speaking beings is sent by one who himself is a speaker. It is on account of this that those people who said Muhammad is God or the group who said 'Ali is God fell into error. The Prophet and the legatees (wasi) are disgusted with them, and those with whom the Prophet is disgusted, God is also disgusted. These people are called the Mimiyya and the 'Ayniyya, who thought that unless
[Muhammad and Ali] were one with God their sender, they would not have been able to accept His message. These people committed this error because they were not able to recognize the [proper] ranks (hudud) of religion.

This is what I wrote a few pages ago, and I think it's wort it to mention again:

I think the best thing we can do to prove that we truly love Maula is to obey his Farameen. Follow what HE encourages us to do and avoid what HE forbids us to do. If we do that, the result will manifest in our actions and speeches, naturally.

For your reference, the following are just few quotes of Maula Ali that comes to mind at this time. Don't answer to me, but to yourself. Are you living by these words of Maula Ali, as you call yourself "attorney of Ali"? Do you?

-The most complete gift of God is a life based on knowledge.
-The ignorant man does not understand the learned for he has never been learned himself.
-Knowledge gives life to the soul.
-To respect the learned is to respect God.
-Knowledge creates fear of God.
-One's obedience to God is proportionate to one's wisdom.
-He is really wise whose actions reflect his words.
-Humility is the product of knowledge.
-Humility is one of the nets spread by real greatness.
-Self-conceit poisons the mind.
-Boasting issues from small minds.
-The worth of every man is in his attainment.
-Loving one another is half of wisdom.
-It is enough for your own discipline that you refrain from what you dislike from others.
-A man can be valued through his sayings.
-The most complete gift of God is life based on knowledge.


-Maula Ali

Anyway my good friend, this debate is over, unless we get back to a civilized discussion. I do not see any benefit and value if a discussion is taking a dirty tone. But, I wish you well and may you find peace and truth in your soul searching journey.

[tret]

There is the Hujjat ul Imam, the Pir. He is accompagnied by the Hujjats of the 12 areas in his time. So the 12 Hujjats accompagying the Pir or the Hujat ul Imam (Imam Mustawda) do not have to be from the family of Imam not do they have the power and status of the Hujjat ul Imam.

My understanding from Hudud al-din, according to ismaili theology, is same.

- Prophet
- Imam
- Hujjat
- Dai
- Muhaleem
- Two Mahzoons
- Mustajeb (Murid)

My understanding was that Pir and Hujjat holds the same rank. What ShamsB is describing, is slightly different.

I was aware of the 12 Hujjats. There are actually 12 Hujjats (day) and 12 Hujjats (night), and there are 4 Hujjats [Who are referenced as Hujat-e-Azam], who never leaves the site of the Imam. They are as gates to the Imam. So, in total there are 28 Hujjats. As you mentioned, Hujjats are proof of Imams or representing the proof of Imams.