Explaination needed of Koran Ayat.

[agakhani]

If murids attempt to directly interpret knowledge of Imam [in the existence of Pir], knowledge of Imam can be so intense like fire, that murids won't have the capacity to digest.

Now let me ask you this then why you interpret MHI"s farmans wrong way and your own way and gives wrong meaning!!!? Kya likhte ho vo kabhi kabhi socha bhi karo. کیا لکھتے ہو وو کبھی کبھی لکھنے سے پہلے سوچا بھی کرو

FYI:- Dais were not pirs so, stop to compare dais with pirs it is insult to our pirs, دی تو پرو کی جوتی برابربھی نہیں !
So, why don't you go any school and first learn what is the position of pirs and dais in Ismaili sect!?

[zznoor]

@tret

(6:102) Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no god but He - the Creator of all things. Serve Him alone - for it is He Who is the guardian of everything.

You said

This will require deeper discussion; whoever wants to take this verse to the next level, please let me know. Secrets are hidden in this verse.

Can you elaborate, please.

[tret]

@tret

(6:102) Such is Allah, your Lord. There is no god but He - the Creator of all things. Serve Him alone - for it is He Who is the guardian of everything.

You said

This will require deeper discussion; whoever wants to take this verse to the next level, please let me know. Secrets are hidden in this verse.

Can you elaborate, please.

Before anything, just try to reflect and think about why God is referring to Himself in the third person?

I'd like to see what you think, before we can discuss.

[agakhani]

Who wants to know is " DOES ALLAH REFERRING HIMSELF AS FEMININE PERSON OR JUST THIRD MEN PERSON?!!

But hey bro Tret:-
You know that I voluntary withdrawn my self not to debate about quran but while writing above a question arises in my mind

Allah say he has no shape nor he has born from any one ( so he is not men or female) then how that possible he consider himself as a men?? 'YADULAHI FAMAN NAKAS FAINAMA"
Yadullah means Allah's hand?? Where is the Allah's hand came from? when he has no shape!!??

[tret]

Allah say he has no shape nor he has born from any one ( so he is not men or female) then how that possible he consider himself as a men?? 'YADULAHI FAMAN NAKAS FAINAMA"
Yadullah means Allah's hand?? Where is the Allah's hand came from? when he has no shape!!??

To agakhani -
These are very excellent questions and that's part of Qur'an's mystery and secrets of God Almighty. Maula knows best, but what I think is that the reference to hand of God (uaddullah) face of God, and etc... are all made in metaphorical form and symbolism and must not be taken in their literal form.

According to doctrine of Islam, God has no shape and form, and it's beyond human intellect to comprehend God. However, we see all those humanly attributes in the Qur'an.

[zznoor]

tret
Before anything, just try to reflect and think about why God is referring to Himself in the third person?

I'd like to see what you think, before we can discuss.

In Qur'an the speaker frequently changes - sometimes it is God Who is speaking, sometimes it is the angel who carries the revelation, and sometimes a group of angels; on some occasions it is the Prophet (peace be on him) who is speaking, while on others it is the men of faith.
Likewise, those addressed by the Qur'an also change - sometimes it is the Prophet (peace be' on him); sometimes it is the men of faith; sometimes it is the People of the Book; sometimes it is the unbelievers and the polytheists; sometimes it is the Quraysh; sometimes it is the Arabs; and sometimes, mankind as a whole. Regardless of these changes, however, the content of the message always remains the same - it consists of God's guidance to mankind.

[tret]

sometimes it is God Who is speaking..

So according to you, God speaks as men do? Are you sure you are not entering into anthropomorphism (shirk)? Is it not a form of attribution to God? Because according to surah Ikhlas, God is free of all association (تشبیح).

[zznoor]

@tret

Prophet received revealation thru Wahi.

Wahi, in the sense of revelation, refers to Allah's guidance for people that was sent down via the prophets, who received it through one of the means mentioned in the following Qur'anic verse:

(It is not fitting for any man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills, for He is Most High, Most Wise. ) (Ash-Shura 42:51)

From this verse, it is obvious that any prophet must have received the revelation through one of the following means:

1. Inspiration, for example, in a dream as that which Ibrahim received while asleep, to sacrifice his son.

2. Speech hidden away, as Allah spoke to Moses.

3. Words (speech) sent from Allah through a special messenger as the Angel Gabriel was sent to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). That is the common way of wahi.

[tret]

@tret

Prophet received revealation thru Wahi.

Wahi, in the sense of revelation, refers to Allah's guidance for people that was sent down via the prophets, who received it through one of the means mentioned in the following Qur'anic verse:

(It is not fitting for any man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by sending a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills, for He is Most High, Most Wise. ) (Ash-Shura 42:51)

From this verse, it is obvious that any prophet must have received the revelation through one of the following means:

1. Inspiration, for example, in a dream as that which Ibrahim received while asleep, to sacrifice his son.

2. Speech hidden away, as Allah spoke to Moses.

3. Words (speech) sent from Allah through a special messenger as the Angel Gabriel was sent to the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). That is the common way of wahi.

My question is very specific about attribution to God almighty. As muslim we all know that as soon as we associate or attribute anything to God, you are commiting shirk and shirk is against Islam.

Speaking is a quality of man. When you attribute this quality to God, then you are actually comparing or rather thinking of God to have human quality of speaking.

I quoted your directly and you said "sometimes it is God who is speaking"

So tell me if you have not commited shirk already? Or even worst, if thats what all ahl-e-sunnaah thinks and believes, tell me if they are not already commiting shirk? Because from where i see, according to surah ikhlas, this (god speaking) is a pure shirk and against principlal and teaching of Islam which is tawhid and oneness of God almighty.

Please i dont want explanation of how revelation was done through wahi. My question is very specific.

[ShamsB]

tret
Before anything, just try to reflect and think about why God is referring to Himself in the third person?

I'd like to see what you think, before we can discuss.

In Qur'an the speaker frequently changes - sometimes it is God Who is speaking, sometimes it is the angel who carries the revelation, and sometimes a group of angels; on some occasions it is the Prophet (peace be on him) who is speaking, while on others it is the men of faith.
Likewise, those addressed by the Qur'an also change - sometimes it is the Prophet (peace be' on him); sometimes it is the men of faith; sometimes it is the People of the Book; sometimes it is the unbelievers and the polytheists; sometimes it is the Quraysh; sometimes it is the Arabs; and sometimes, mankind as a whole. Regardless of these changes, however, the content of the message always remains the same - it consists of God's guidance to mankind.

Convenience over conviction?

You can't have it both ways - pick one..
and based upon your statement - you just endorsed the need for an Imam/a manifestation so Humans can understand Allah; and..based upon that conjecture Ali-Allah.

Wow ZZNOOR - you just declared yourself to be an Ismaili.

I knew we'd convert you some day.

Shams

[zznoor]

@tret

"sometimes it is God who is speaking"

There is no evidence in Quran that I know where God spoke to Muhammad directly. God speaking to Moses behind vail (fire) is in Quran.

So I should have said "sometimes it is God behind vail (Q42:51)who is speaking"
Does Allah has human speech capability. He is Allah and he can do anything.
There is no Shirk in it.

Allahu Aalam

Salam

[agakhani]

OK, folks it is vacation time for me, please wish me for a good health, happiness and wealth, and pray Almighty Allah that he solve all the problems and full fill my all wishes about my one business.

I will not put any post 3-4 weeks. I will miss you though. ZZNoor, Tret and Sheri please forgive me about my harsh language.

[zznoor]

OK, folks it is vacation time for me, please wish me for a good health, happiness and wealth, and pray Almighty Allah that he solve all the problems and full fill my all wishes about my one business.

I will not put any post 3-4 weeks. I will miss you though. ZZNoor, Tret and Sheri please forgive me about my harsh language.

Happy and safe vacation. Remembers us in your Dua.

[tret]

@tret

"sometimes it is God who is speaking"

There is no evidence in Quran that I know where God spoke to Muhammad directly. God speaking to Moses behind vail (fire) is in Quran.

So I should have said "sometimes it is God behind vail (Q42:51)who is speaking"
Does Allah has human speech capability. He is Allah and he can do anything.
There is no Shirk in it.

Allahu Aalam

Salam

No matter how you put it; as soon as you attribute anything to God almighty, you are committing a shirk.

So, if that's not shirk, then please explain in your own word, what would be considered as shirk?

[zznoor]

@tret
Shirk is attributing partners to Allah

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
Does Imam has co partners claiming to be Imam.
suras mentioned are describing the powers and attributes to ALI
as many religion before that has concept of two or more god head.
Hinduism has man dozens,I can spell them.
understanding word by word in zahir nad beyond that thesame ayat
in baatin is truth we Ismaili Pray every day.
we pray to tasbih to YA ALI n not Allah, because taking that name
once ALI is there is waiting time n energy.
Nothing is shirk .it is the notion a hollow one formed in the mind of person.
See the blessed status of Ismailis around you.

any debator at zahiri can trap a true or haqiqat statement.

i.e
Water if Life.
can be a true statement for a person with divine inclination.
but for debater is it winning point.
can one cannot see Life in water with own eyes .
he can even challenge that water even proved by science
as H2O.
it can be challenged as one can see water only as not hydrogen n oxygen.


One has to tolerate Zahiri debater because in our Ismaili religion as Tariqat level zahiri has 50% weight age.
i.e Imam,councils.IIS.meetings n conferences.
So at many times one has to ignore what a Zahiri will write.
Imam SMS has said to ignore their braying n barking.
he diplomatically did not say the name of animals who sound like that.

[tret]

Nothing is shirk

For someone who considers himself/herself a muslim, shirk is a big deal. Committing it is considered a sin. And there's a reason behind that.

Why do you think all the Prophets were sent to guide mankind and deliver the divine message? What's the purpose of the divine message? The principal theme and teaching of Islam? Do you think the whole purpose is to say Ali is Allah, and keep meditating? Or there's more to it.

You keep bashing everyone by labeling them such as zahiri, but you forget to look at yourself.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Dogs are not Ismaili for sure.
you have been cheating the forum with Sunni concept.
better be at a Shariati barking site till death catches up.
read the Farman of Imam SMS. the word kafir or hell is mentioned
those who do not believe in status of Imam as Allah/God
can Agakhani/Admin repost the farmans n also master peice farman of wadi.
I would wish to frame it below foto of MHI.
We do not need any bull shit other than 'where our faith advancement
is concerned other than what is read,recited n explained in JK.
we pray our Dua to ALI,we seek favors from ALI in our Tasbih.
we see n believe ALI as GOD.

[Admin]

Ya Ali Madad.
Dogs are not Ismaili for sure.

I beg to differ. Not all of the dogs are created equal. I would give all of my good deeds to become the dog which I saw with Hazar Imam (a photo is circulating). If only this was possible!

[tret]

To Admin -
I see you have locked the thread which was getting out of control.

I have asked ShamsB a question about any reference to provide a list of all Pir's since Maula Ali. Because honestly, I am very ill-informed about this topic, and I'd like to learn. So, this is just a reminder to brother ShamsB to follow up.

Because according to my understanding, the rank below Imam is Hujjat, and except Imam all other ranks come into multiples. Where as ShamsB asserted that Pir [Imam Mustawdah] also must be one. So, I just want reference to validate ShamsB's assertion, and for me to learn on this topic. thanks.

[Admin]

The list of "Satadhari Pir" Mustawda Imam, Hujjat-ul-Imam is in the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua. There are 51 names. Each Pir [Hujjat-ul Imam] comes with 12 Hujjats.

[tret]

The list of "Satadhari Pir" Mustawda Imam, Hujjat-ul-Imam is in the Asal Ghat Pat ji Dua. There are 51 names. Each Pir [Hujjat-ul Imam] comes with 12 Hujjats.

To Admin -
Would you be able to share this list with me? If it can't be put in the forum, can you private message it to me?

[Admin]

To Admin -
Would you be able to share this list with me? If it can't be put in the forum, can you private message it to me?

The list is not private. Here it is:

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

[Admin]

Again to come back to the title of this thread, a God sent quote :

The Imam must direct Ismailis on the practice of their religion and constantly interpret the Qur'an for them according to our theology. On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. [Interview] March 1975

-- Aga Khan IV

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
what Imam says is true.
here you have one over clever,totally un blessed soul.showing all theology
can be from many sources.
for ismaili what imam says final n full stop.
we are today becuase our forefathers followed Farmans and not supplementry
theology of xyz of what soever status of that entity.

If we wish to understand for example doctrine of Nasir khusraw.
we must see and read a quality translation of approved qasidas.
know his conviction of imam and ALI,how is potraying ALI there.
after than go for only approved material for academic reading with
base conviction of waht he has for ALI in qasidas written by him.
marfati does not two views of ALI for conviction.
then many material where dai n pirs having gone overboard with baatin insight is banned or with drawn by tariqa board under guidance of MHI.
one such book is 'wajah e Din' going overboard and above the mandate
on universe n it's creation blah blah blah.
Any sufi material is best analyzed by an Haqiqati or someone with Baatin insight to justify what was thinking n truth.

it is like showing glass of water to ignorant.
who ask vague question that scientist or PhD may not reply.
to show him life in water?
show him both hydrogen n oxygen in water?
prove that gutter water n water from natural spring not the same?.
as many answers of science n all of faith is meta physical.it is not easy
to answer what cannot be seen by naked eyes( here it is a 50% blind one)

one can act very clever where faith/self belief is there and challenge
that I see a human being and not God?
not an easy answer to give to an unfaithful or meet his level of ignorance.

I wish Admin with help of any persian translator or already translated by bonafide Ismaili scholar to post all main approved qasidas recited currently
every verse with translation.
I CHALLENGE THAT every third or fourth verse is calling ALI as GOD.
He has even avoided the word Allah,because at Marifat that word does not exist in verbatim but sublimes into ALI by default.
With this from verses we can go into holistic tariqati level or haqiqati level
of debate which will all be benefiting from it.

to ShamsB:Ya ali madad.
you are 101% right in your study of Imam mustadwa,understood by khojas as noor e rasool or noor e pirantan.
God will stay and come as trinatity may still be holding.
In his memoirs Imam SMS on prophet he said he has achieved companionship of the HIGH which all must try.
as there in no heaven or hell up.
the same nnorai soul stays with ALI or deputed to souls in Ahle Bayt.
(pirs or family members)
same is soul of salman faras seen in/as hassan bin sabbah and count eboo recently
(part of royal but not from the of royalty).
the noor of pirs from Ahle Bayt is same as noor of prophecy.
Imam word are absolute from Divinty.
pir/rasool words fromthe divine soul/person.
ALI is there on earth n noor e rasool also appears on earth
and Salman is there around Ahle bayt.
If ALI ,Salman n Mohammed are seen on living on earth.
where should an ordinary soul be.?
No rocket science.
I have done some findings on it.
because there is a farman of imam SMS to study the soul of others.?
I have gone little deep into n cannot share all info with all.
maybe with shamsB n agakhani in pvt email to do background research on it as I am sure we can complements each others in own domain field.
AB TO ALI AUR ALI SIRF ALI ALI.

[zznoor]

Ya Ali Madad.
Dogs are not Ismaili for sure.

I beg to differ. Not all of the dogs are created equal. I would give all of my good deeds to become the dog which I saw with Hazar Imam (a photo is circulating). If only this was possible!

May your Maula fulfill your wish in your next Janam

[tret]

To Admin -
Thanks for this reference. It's certainly appreciated. This is actually taken from the "A Brief History of Ismailism" by A Aziz. I quoted something here, which is in contradiction according to my understanding from what has been explain by Ismaili Theosophers of Fatimid period [Most of my understanding is from that era, btw].

I want to make 2 points by the following quote. The first point is underlined and according to the author "Allah" and "Imam" are distinguished as two entities. The second point which is in contradiction is the concept of Asas and Natiq.

The Ima'm is the Supreme Authority appointed directly by Allah. He is the asa's (foundation, cause, root) and Pi'r is the na'tiq (conversant, conversationist, messenger).

- Natiqs are the six great Natiqs (Major Prophets with revelations), at their time [Cycle or Dawr], and the Imams at their Time and cycle. Who brings to mankind the Divine message.
- Asas are the Awsia [Wasi singular] or Legatees of the Natiq's at the times of Six major prophet and Hujjats of the Imam at the time of each Imam are Asas.

So, this [concept of Natiq and Asas] are complete opposite of what I understood from Fatimid period. I am not sure if anyone's interested in this topic and wants to clarify. Please feel free. I will appreciate your input and knowledge. Thanks.


=========

The other point that I wanted to clarify is the idea or understanding of "Prophet Muhammad being the first Pir"

In the following section the author alludes a reference from KIM, in regards to nine cycle, which has no relevance into Muhammad being/appointed as Pir. The paragraph right after the excerpt from KIM is author's opinion and understanding and conviction. So, if this is the source that is backing up the idea of The Prophet being as Pir, then how credible is the understanding of the author?

1. NABI MOHAMMED

The world has already passed nine cycles of 432,000 years each and is now passing through its tenth, and the last, cycle starting from six thousand years before the time of the Holy

_______________________ 92. KIM vol-I, p. 234 93. HQ ch. 2 v. 30

Prophet of Isla'm. Naboowat, the Prophethood, ended with him. He was the last Nabi.

He was the first and the greatest teacher of the Religion of God, Isla'm. Sufi's consider him to be the mu'rshidil awwal, the first teacher or the first master.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
to ShamsB/Agakhani.
AAP LOG PUDH LIKH KAR PhD BAN GAYEE,AUR ALI ALLAH WALE HO GAYEE.
HUM TO USKI AASHIQUE ME KHUD ALI ALI HO GAYEE,AUR RAHE AAB BHI
ANGUTHA CHAAP.
Please reply with poetic couplet.Our faith is of few word and not volumes of
books.

please note an author from IIS has limitation to move in Tariqati( like physically observation of water level) frame work
to explain n define mostly copy paste of earlier writers.
no original Sufi work is coming out from there.
All these presentation/copy paste keeps coming to justify their fat salaries.
there is so many research they can do to prepare for ulimate zahurat.
I can give them at least 5 subjects/projects with strong viability to do research on it.
Any paper or definition out of nanji,rupani,nathoo tattu,even banned material of nasir kusraw becomes NULL n VOID or a dormant paper of academics against Farmans of ALI on the same matter.( not speeches).
escaping to all material of writers in community just to escape from accepting a farman shows the intention of the member.
I thought tret was a tariqati,but now it confirmed looks like a very very dangerous Shariati not even a Shia with his belief.


To zznoor:Ya Ali madad.
Nice rejoinder to unwise posting.you have sharp eyes.
I have ones simple question why you only partcipate with data/matter of 1370 years back in the forum.Past is past.you are aware that there two sets of opinion floating that of Sunni n Shia on it. the smae thing get reposted.these in any forum can be dismissed as there is no proof
to prove it.
if current status and what you see n feel is more important to one's life.
your mind will fresh if u participation real ground reality of today because
thatis ABSOLUTE RESULT. of what was said heard n seen 1370 years back.
few results who got inspired by Zahiri angle of Quran.
was Idi Amin,Mullah Omar n lately Boko Haram.n many thousand others.
the other one word fro them is Disaster.
Observe light on face ,smile.( current farman of MHI),upliftment of humanity against destroying of Humanity.cut off with civilized n moral
society.
Please read the speech said by MHI in seerat conference for Prophet
Mohammed to mainly Shariatis.
He praise the internal qualities of the entity.persona n inter action with people.,intellect.etc.
He did not mention one word on his physical appearance,quantum of prayer ,movements.etc.
Speaking the truth rather than adoring unwarranted issues was the hallmark.
I wonder if Mulllahs,kazi,ulema attending the conference understood what he said.they must have been busy scratching their beards as speech was said in English.
I can assume what their level of understanding of English could be nearly 40 year back in country like Pakistan.
one personal question what pinches you ,the Ismaili faith in totality or
the loaded traditions of the khojas ?

[zznoor]

Nuseri wrote
I have ones simple question why you only partcipate with data/matter of 1370 years back in the forum.Past is past.you are aware that there two sets of opinion floating that of Sunni n Shia on it. the smae thing get reposted.these in any forum can be dismissed as there is no proof

ASAK brother

I have simple answer.
Islam is simple religion and to practice it is also simple.
Salat, fast and Zakat
Hz Ali whom you consider Allah has said about introducing innovations to 1370 year old religion as follows;
I consider this to be foremost Farman from Imam Ali


Hadith - From: Abu Dawud, Narrated by Ali ibn Abu Talib

The Prophet said, "If anyone introduces an innovation in the religion, he will be responsible for it. (Good or bad). If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in the religion) he is cursed by Allaah, by His angels and by all the people."

There are more Hadith and Quranic Ayas on the subject of Bida which is not Germaine to this thread
This is my simple answer

[nuseri]

To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
As expected you have taken a quote of 1370 years back.
hadith are 85% fake floating in the market,pik n choose what you need.
it is all hear,say n saw by third person story ppeped up by fouth or fifth level
writer on it.
any hear, n say heard lines.
has NO LEGAL status,may be a moral obligation to some who want to use it for one conveniance.
I dismiss is staraigh away.
these look fake as it does not matches the wave length of Allah/Imam.
If have any current observation of result of any of those actions.
you must write waht ALI say today is heard n recorded.
no court of law or group of impartial wise person will agree to stories told
by dead entities.
Again what do have in current living Imam or Ismailis is important.
story of trhird person is not a farman.
Farman is official address to his followers.