Imam and Imamat

[ShamsB]

Go read Tusi's paradise of submission- which is not an indian text
go read Ivanow's tranlsations of Nasir Khusraw - on the recognition of the Imam - that is on ismaili.net

Shams, you have named two of the great Ismaili thinkers and philosophers of their times. I admire their works.

But, let me ask you a question.

Do you know their belief framework, and how they interpret and allude about the concept of God and Creation? Can you please backup your argument -- since you have already named these two personalities -- from the sources that you have mentioned?

And kindly let us know, how do you perceive God/Allah? Elaborate a little, other than simplifying it as Ali is Allah, please.


Taw'hid is one of the very important principals of Islam in general, and Ismaili in particular. [MHI has approved that the concept of God has to be thought and understood, in accordance with Surah Ikhlas, which emphasizes the principal of Taw'hid]

According to my understanding, God can not be understood by human intellect. And human may not try to figure out what/Who God is. Because the moment human try to understand something, he associates God with something that human already experienced it. Therefore, any type of association with God, is considered as shirk. The way Tusi and Nasir Khusraw aludes about concept of God, is by double negating to disassociate any type of attribute or adjective with God. Such as God is not kind and God is not-not kind, for example.

Human can not understand God, but human may realize God. This is faith in unseen, unknown.

Btw - you made my point for me - how can human understand god?
yet you and sheri seem to elude that understanding - you're trying to get us to explain how we understand what we understand - when we have surety of what we know - we have conviction - but you are unable to understand it and we are unable to explain it

Hopefully - that makes sense.

Shams

[tret]

In order to have an intellectual discussion - we need to be standing on the same level - and have similar understandings - outside of our ba'yah to the Imam - we don't seem to have anything in common.
We don't even see the same things in our Du'a - how can we have a conversation.
My stance is this - as per the Imam's farman in Chicago - try to explain your faith - if they don't understand - walk away.

All i say is - you have your understanding - we have ours.
Nothing wrong in that.
And we've been saying all along - plurality and diversity is what the Imam preaches - yet - do we all practise it?

Let us agree to disagree in peace - you maybe right from your perspective and understanding and I maybe right from mine.

Shams

I beg to differ on your assertion of 'nothing in common'. I think we have a lot in common, but we are too focused on our differences than our similarities. We follow the same Imam of the Time, I think that should be sufficient enough.

Now, to be on the same level: I have to admit that I am no scholar, nor do I claim that I know something. As I indicated many times, I am slave of the one whom I learn something. Besides, what's wrong in a civilized discussion? I personally don't want any discussion to end up in emotional outburst, and quarrel. If that's the outcome of a discussion, then we need to agree to disagree and everyone on their way. But with a constructive discussion, is the purpose of these forums, don't you think so?

I believe we learn by sharing our prespectives. It's up to the observer to take it or leave it. You can convince me by providing your reasoning, and I will accept it, should I be convinced.

Believe me, my intention is not to prove anyone wrong. My intention is to learn and share. If I need to be corrected, I will be more than glad to admit it.

[tret]

Btw - you made my point for me - how can human understand god?
yet you and sheri seem to elude that understanding - you're trying to get us to explain how we understand what we understand - when we have surety of what we know - we have conviction - but you are unable to understand it and we are unable to explain it

Hopefully - that makes sense.

Shams

I think you are missing the point here.

Understanding God is not the same as understanding the concept of God

What I was trying to explain was the latter; however what you are trying to imply is the former.

I hope it's clear now.

[ShamsB]

In order to have an intellectual discussion - we need to be standing on the same level - and have similar understandings - outside of our ba'yah to the Imam - we don't seem to have anything in common.
We don't even see the same things in our Du'a - how can we have a conversation.
My stance is this - as per the Imam's farman in Chicago - try to explain your faith - if they don't understand - walk away.

All i say is - you have your understanding - we have ours.
Nothing wrong in that.
And we've been saying all along - plurality and diversity is what the Imam preaches - yet - do we all practise it?

Let us agree to disagree in peace - you maybe right from your perspective and understanding and I maybe right from mine.

Shams

I beg to differ on your assertion of 'nothing in common'. I think we have a lot in common, but we are too focused on our differences than our similarities. We follow the same Imam of the Time, I think that should be sufficient enough.

Now, to be on the same level: I have to admit that I am no scholar, nor do I claim that I know something. As I indicated many times, I am slave of the one whom I learn something. Besides, what's wrong in a civilized discussion? I personally don't want any discussion to end up in emotional outburst, and quarrel. If that's the outcome of a discussion, then we need to agree to disagree and everyone on their way. But with a constructive discussion, is the purpose of these forums, don't you think so?

I believe we learn by sharing our prespectives. It's up to the observer to take it or leave it. You can convince me by providing your reasoning, and I will accept it, should I be convinced.

Believe me, my intention is not to prove anyone wrong. My intention is to learn and share. If I need to be corrected, I will be more than glad to admit it.

I've given you names of sources - of books - have you read those books?

For me to quote a line here or there - would be completely out of context.

Want us to sit down and be on the same platform - read the books.

My faith is not based on reason..rather on love and conviction.

You state you want to be convinced - you're already starting from a position of being right - versus being open and willing to learn.

Your statements have also come across as - what you believe is the Ismaili view - and all else are either ill educated or wrong...(you may not have meant that - but that's the way that it came across to me)
You claim to be a murid of the Imam - yet you are not ready to tolerate pluralism - unless anyone from a differing view accepts that they're lesser than you....

Go read the books - then maybe we can have a discussion - till then - we're on different platforms.
We've given Ba'yah to the Imam - and that is the common thread that remains.
I wish you well and success.

Shams

[sheri]

Here is the Alawites belief. They believe in Ali=Allah. They also have the 7 phases as imams (different than Tusi). They also drink wine. So now can we believe this to be the right path? Is this the right set of 7 prophets and IMAMs?

http://www.muslimhope.com/Alawites.htm

I read Tusi's work. Here is the link - scroll to pg 136:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=_hlhj4g ... &q&f=false

Read Tasawur 26 #408. It starts with "It is said that after Abraham...."

The use of "It is said" shows that Tusi was using this concept of Imamat from someone else.

Here is a list of IMAM pre-Adam outlined on the Hunzai website.

http://hub-e-ali.blogspot.ca/2009/08/li ... am-as.html

These are different from the Vishnapuri that is claimed to come from the ghatpat dua

All these people like Tusi, Nasir, Hunzai are crafting these concepts based on sources written by other people. Just like we are reading all the historic sources and trying to make sense, so did all these individuals like Tusi, Nasir Khuruw etc read historic sources from their time. A statement made by Hunzai, Nasir, Tusi can only be put forward as a possibility, as an interpretation.

*****Only something said by the IMAM is definite*********.

[sheri]

Therefore, please provide direct references of firmans, and dua to validate the concept. Please stay away from your interpretations, Tusi's interpretations or even my interpretation. Please, I am getting tired of this back and forth.

I would really like to know if there are any DIRECT REFERENCES to sources authorized by the IMAM of the TIME which CLEARLY state the ALI= ALLAH concept.

PLEASE, PLEASE ,PLEASE stay away from he said, she said. I am pleading for your corporation and help to provide any DIRECT REFERENCES.

[Admin]

I will not quote but if you are an Ismaili, go to your Mukhi or Itreb and ask to read the last page of the Silver Jubilee Farman Nairobi. Hazar Imam explains that there will be Imams after him, maybe called Imam of the Space Age and that means Allah is Everywhere.

[sheri]

There is a difference between "after" and "before." I honestly don't care about before because there are many discrepancies in all the sources and no one really know which list is right, are these facts or interpretations.

The references I asked in my post were for the Ali=Allah concept. NOT for if IMAMs existed before.

[ShamsB]

There is a difference between "after" and "before." I honestly don't care about before because there are many discrepancies in all the sources and no one really know which list is right, are these facts or interpretations.

The references I asked in my post were for the Ali=Allah concept. NOT for if IMAMs existed before.

You actually challenged the notion of Imams pre Ali - want us to go back and pull out your posts?
You I think called it brainwashing....

So - in a nutshell - to answer your numerous circuluar queries and disputes with our belief system.

1. There has always been an Imam..
2. Ali is Allah
3. Neither one of these were hindu concepts but rather Islamic concepts explained in terms that the indo sub pak ismailies could understand and relate to.

Keep in mind - that Islam doesn't mean Arab and Pakistani and Indian Culture/History - merges into one pre 1947.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Here is the Alawites belief. They believe in Ali=Allah. They also have the 7 phases as imams (different than Tusi). They also drink wine. So now can we believe this to be the right path? Is this the right set of 7 prophets and IMAMs?

http://www.muslimhope.com/Alawites.htm

I read Tusi's work. Here is the link - scroll to pg 136:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=_hlhj4g ... &q&f=false

Read Tasawur 26 #408. It starts with "It is said that after Abraham...."

The use of "It is said" shows that Tusi was using this concept of Imamat from someone else.

Here is a list of IMAM pre-Adam outlined on the Hunzai website.

http://hub-e-ali.blogspot.ca/2009/08/li ... am-as.html

These are different from the Vishnapuri that is claimed to come from the ghatpat dua

All these people like Tusi, Nasir, Hunzai are crafting these concepts based on sources written by other people. Just like we are reading all the historic sources and trying to make sense, so did all these individuals like Tusi, Nasir Khuruw etc read historic sources from their time. A statement made by Hunzai, Nasir, Tusi can only be put forward as a possibility, as an interpretation.

*****Only something said by the IMAM is definite*********.

We have given you what the Imam has said.
You don't want to accept it.

Also Hunzai? really?
Do you know he's claimed to be the Imam as well? Are you confused because you're trying to follow him and this isn't a Hunzai site?

Shams

[sheri]

The IMAM did not give your that. Where is the AUTHENTIC FIRMAN where IMAM lists all the names in the Vishnapuri.

[agakhani]

Admin,

You are just wasting your valuable time on Sheri/Tret ( they both same, I bet you any thing) who keeps asking you the same old, repeated and weird questions again and again Now, I, think if MHI come him self and tell him that you are wrong but he will not believe that!!! so best way is just ignore their questions and let him what he/she is believing!!.

I, think he is under heavy influence of Hunzai, so he will not believe or accept what is true but he will only accept what his mentor taught him earlier !!

So, lets move ahead, we have many other issues which needs healthy discussion, I think which are more important then his repeated garbage questions.

[sheri]

Agakhani -

Why are your crying out to Admin. Be a man and provide authentic references. Give me the Page# of the Vadi JK firman so I can confirm with my own eyes the authenticity of the firman. There is a lot of garbage floating around on this website and on the WWW about Ismailism.

If you provide me with an AUTHENTIC REFERENCE, I will send you all an apology for the time I have wasted. But until the day you can't provide an AUTHENTIC REFERENCE, the claim cannot be justified.

[sheri]

Hunzai, Tusi, Nasir are all irrelevant. I don't give a crap about what Hunzai says, he can believe in whatever he wants as long as he does not interfere with Ismailism and MHI.

You all are making a outrageous claim which is interfering with Ismaili beliefs. So, provide a SINGLE AUTHENTIC REFERENCE for this claim otherwise your claim is just an inference and nothing else.

[ShamsB]

The IMAM did not give your that. Where is the AUTHENTIC FIRMAN where IMAM lists all the names in the Vishnapuri.

Do you know who wrote the Vishnapuri?

Also - in regards to Ali=Allah; we've given you the Imam's words at the Misison Conference.

You claimed (along with Tret) that Ali=Allah was not in the old Du'a.

The Imam mentions it - and endorses it.

now who do we believe? you or the Imam?

Seems like you don't know what you believe in.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Hunzai, Tusi, Nasir are all irrelevant. I don't give a crap about what Hunzai says, he can believe in whatever he wants as long as he does not interfere with Ismailism and MHI.

You all are making a outrageous claim which is interfering with Ismaili beliefs. So, provide a SINGLE AUTHENTIC REFERENCE for this claim otherwise your claim is just an inference and nothing else.

We didn't bring up Hunzai - you did - as a source.

You prefer him over the Pirs it seems - FYI - Hazar Imam is our Pir.

Pir= Imam Mustawda
Imam = Imam Mustaqir

Maybe that's another thing you need to go and learn about how ismailism functions.

Shams

[sheri]

Shams something said by Dr. Nathoo does not make it IMAMs word. Stop this misinformation.

hahahah......so this is your strategy. Associate me with Hunzai and try to damage my credibility. lol. The world is not blind. People can read things and I have clearly stated that I DON'T CARE about Tusi, Hunzai, SHAMS or other people who are providing interpretations and making lists.

I want you to support your claims by providing REFERENCE. Why are you evading the REFERENCE.

[agakhani]

Sheri,
I wish I could put it that Wadi JK farman, off course I have it but since I joined in this website it is always remain my personal policy that not to put any farmans in this forum section, and you won"t believe it but that is true that after 6 years I am still following my policy, so, I can not put any farman here but I can put ginanic references as many as you wants which will show you Ali=Allah, would you like it?

[Admin]

Sheri has not asked for the Farman, just for the date of that Farman. Give the date and that wil put the matter to rest.

[sheri]

Sheri has not asked for the Farman, just for the date of that Farman. Give the date and that wil put the matter to rest.

Thank you Admin. Agakhani, I would really appreciate it if you can take 5 mins and provide the reference. It will really put this matter to rest.

[ShamsB]

Shams something said by Dr. Nathoo does not make it IMAMs word. Stop this misinformation.

hahahah......so this is your strategy. Associate me with Hunzai and try to damage my credibility. lol. The world is not blind. People can read things and I have clearly stated that I DON'T CARE about Tusi, Hunzai, SHAMS or other people who are providing interpretations and making lists.

I want you to support your claims by providing REFERENCE. Why are you evading the REFERENCE.

Ah - you see Dr. Nathoo
But you don't see the Mission Conference statement right above it?

Or you don't' want to see it? coz it makes your argument null and void?
You keep talking about Dr.Nathoo - but the statement in the paragraph above that, that has been quoted is from the Mission Conference.

And also - there was a Mission conference of 1945, where the Imam talked about Mach Avatar - and the validity of that.
Which in turn validates the Das Avatar - which in your books is Hinduism - now if the Imam has said that - in present times - does that mean you'll admit that you're wrong in your outlook? or that there are other viable viewpoints?

Shams

[agakhani]

Beware every one:
One important thing I forget to write in my earlier post and that is, after reading Sheri/Tret"s, and other fews recent posts, I will suggest each and every one in this forum, who has copy of Imam Hasan Ali, Imam Ali Shah and SMS farmans regarding Ali is sahi Allah then please do not put it here at any cost, they may make wrong meaning of it as per their old habits! so please beware about this.Ismaili sect is not for any kind debates, if you like it doors are open, if you do not like it then doors are still open, a true Ismaili never ask for any references, for him faith in imams are the most important things, imam ke farman ko ham aakhari phensala barso se mante aaye hai aur mante rahenge.

[sheri]

agakhani - you love your propaganda. The firman Admin posted is widely available on the internet. Since, it is so widely available I am doubting the authenticity of the firman's translation.

If instead of spreading hate, you could take the time and give me the proper reference, so I can see it for myself and confirm it, I would have appreciated that.

[Admin]

agakhani - you love your propaganda. The firman Admin posted is widely available on the internet. Since, it is so widely available I am doubting the authenticity of the firman's translation.

Sheri would also doubt the existence of the Sun and the Moon as it is widely available on the Internet. What kind of logic is this? . I will just remove Farmans I have quoted to convince Sheri and I will refrain for putting more. No need to try to show the Sun to a blind person. I am not an eye specialist. A blind person does not need the Sun, he/she needs the eye specialist.

[Admin]

There have been suggestions that Sheri, Tret and zznoor are the same person because they posts the same ideas.

It is the humble opinion of the Admin that these are different people posting from different countries and therefore we would prefer that the repeat posting saying these are same or two of them are same persons should not happen.

Thanks.

[agakhani]

Admin,

I told you half blind person in joke yesterday but seems you are not half blind but 100% blind to guessing the person, I bet you any thing that Sheri and Tret are same person, would you like to bet? I buy you a lunch in Montreal if I loose.

let me ask you this Admin, I live in USA and I have one ID "AGAKHANI" but if I, want to open another IDS showing that I am living in India!! choosing Indian standard time and place, can I open it or not? yes, I can open it, ( do not worry, I will not in real ) then why not the crook like Tret can not?

[Admin]

Trust me that I know how to track people's is even if they post from different locations. This is very easy to do and extremely difficult to conceal from the eyes of tech people.

[agakhani]

Good to know about your unheard ability to track the location from where the readers are posting their post, however it is very hard in this advance technology time.

If this is true ( As you wrote above : trust me ) Admin then I should apologize Tret and Sheri.
I apolozes you Tret and Sheri for my wrong guessing that you are both same but today bro Admin assured me that you are both from different countries so you are not same person, please pardon my mistakes and excuse me for wrong guessing.

However my inner mind and my own analyzation still not let me believe that you are not a seperate person but don't worry I will adjust my mind. I will obey what admin belive. no hard feelings from my side.
Now it is clear that you are different people but if you aren't then that is a big cheating to bro Admin and others readers forget about me since I am not 100% sure but as I told you I will adjust my self eventually!.

[tret]

Good to know about your unheard ability to track the location from where the readers are posting their post, however it is very hard in this advance technology time.

If this is true ( As you wrote above : trust me ) Admin then I should apologize Tret and Sheri.
I apolozes you Tret and Sheri for my wrong guessing that you are both same but today bro Admin assured me that you are both from different countries so you are not same person, please pardon my mistakes and excuse me for wrong guessing.

However my inner mind and my own analyzation still not let me believe that you are not a seperate person but don't worry I will adjust my mind. I will obey what admin belive. no hard feelings from my side.
Now it is clear that you are different people but if you aren't then that is a big cheating to bro Admin and others readers forget about me since I am not 100% sure but as I told you I will adjust my self eventually!.

Nothing to worry agakhani - I don't hold anything against any one of my spiritual brothers, even if we have dispute on some issues, you are all still my brothers in faith; after all we all have given our bay'at to the Imam of the time.

If someone cheats to get something by deceiving, trust me, that person shall hurt his own heart and soul. Because the biggest court is with in oneself. As Maula Ali says "Nothing hurts the heart more than sins." and cheating and deceiving is but sin.

[a_27826]

Trust me that I know how to track people's is even if they post from different locations. This is very easy to do and extremely difficult to conceal from the eyes of tech people.

Although i think Tret and Sheri are different persons.

But if a person decides to deceive his location, he can do by using proxy IP Address.

http://superuser.com/questions/37687/ho ... er-country