DEEDAR

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Thu May 22, 2003 12:24 am

Ya Aly Madad,

Deedar

All of us are constantly in a state of Noorani Deedar.

The problem is we cannot recognize the obvious.

Kalaame Mowla reference:

1]
hakakee to kuchh shakal sabeer nahee, or makaan hae laa makaan;
laa makaa(n)se tahatsaraa lag, jo kuj makhafee ayaan;
jaaher baatan jo kuchh deesataa, jo kuchh sunataa kaan;
hak beenaa to khaalee naahee, ye nuktaa khub pahechhaan.......325

God does not have any form and his abode is in the placeless(laa makaan). From the placeless to the undersurface of the earth, that which is hidden or manifest, whatever that is visible, whatever that you hear, without God there is no empty space(God is omnipresent). Be aware of this great mystery.

2]
jees bahestme(n) mot na aave, sohee takhat khudaakaa jaan;
khudaa to sab tthorme(n) bastaa, khaalee nahee us been makaan;
sab kul usame(n) vo sabme(n), baaher bheetar hae bharpur;
aysaa samaj jo usame(n) meeleeyaa, so laa mot huaa usakaa nur...246

The paradise in which there is no death, is truly the throne of God. God is present everywhere, There is no place where He does not exist. Everything is in Him, and He is in everything, He is omnipresent inside and outside. If one has attained such an understanding, then his light has become deathless(immortal).

3]
hee(m)mat baa(n)dho zeekar jagaavo, aap ulatt hak a(n)dar dekho;
e jaaher baatan jo kuchh deesataa, hak sahee hay sabame(n) ek;
hak beenaa kuchh khaalee naahee, tu(n) keenaku(n) ddhu(n)ddhan jaave;
aap fanaah ho meel usame(n), to tu(n) raaj ramajku(n) paave...317

Be bound to courage and awaken remembrance, behold in your inner upliftment(of joy and bliss), the truth(of Holy Deedar). Whatever you visualise in the manifest(zahir) and the hidden(batin), the Truth is in all as the One. There is no space which is bereft of the Truth(i.e He is omnipresent), then why do you go away far to seek Him. If you will annihilate yourself(your ego), then you will be in union with Him. Then you will attain the kingdom of mysteries and wonders.

4]
aval aakhar jaaher baatan, deesataa sunataa so hay;
hay sabaheeme(n) sabase neeyaaraa, or nahee sab vo hay;
ma(n)y or tu(n) kee duee chhodd kar, ek dekh kuchh do nahee(n) hay;
aysaa samaj fanaa ho usame(n), tu(n) nahee tab vo sahee hay...327

The first, the last, the manifest and the hidden, that which is visible and heard, is all He. He is in everything yet he is beyond everything, there is nothing apart from Him. By abandoning the separation between I and you, behold this oneness, there is no duality at all. If you lose yourself in this understanding, you will not exist, it will be He in truth.

This is why I think Zahir=Batin=Noorani Deedar.

Ya Aly Madad
Shamsuddin

roxy · Post by **roxy** » Thu May 22, 2003 1:41 pm

shamsu wrote:Ya Aly Madad,

Deedar

All of us are constantly in a state of Noorani Deedar.

The problem is we cannot recognize the obvious.

Kalaame Mowla reference:

1]
hakakee to kuchh shakal sabeer nahee, or makaan hae laa makaan;
laa makaa(n)se tahatsaraa lag, jo kuj makhafee ayaan;
jaaher baatan jo kuchh deesataa, jo kuchh sunataa kaan;
hak beenaa to khaalee naahee, ye nuktaa khub pahechhaan.......325

God does not have any form and his abode is in the placeless(laa makaan). From the placeless to the undersurface of the earth, that which is hidden or manifest, whatever that is visible, whatever that you hear, without God there is no empty space(God is omnipresent). Be aware of this great mystery.

2]
jees bahestme(n) mot na aave, sohee takhat khudaakaa jaan;
khudaa to sab tthorme(n) bastaa, khaalee nahee us been makaan;
sab kul usame(n) vo sabme(n), baaher bheetar hae bharpur;
aysaa samaj jo usame(n) meeleeyaa, so laa mot huaa usakaa nur...246

The paradise in which there is no death, is truly the throne of God. God is present everywhere, There is no place where He does not exist. Everything is in Him, and He is in everything, He is omnipresent inside and outside. If one has attained such an understanding, then his light has become deathless(immortal).

3]
hee(m)mat baa(n)dho zeekar jagaavo, aap ulatt hak a(n)dar dekho;
e jaaher baatan jo kuchh deesataa, hak sahee hay sabame(n) ek;
hak beenaa kuchh khaalee naahee, tu(n) keenaku(n) ddhu(n)ddhan jaave;
aap fanaah ho meel usame(n), to tu(n) raaj ramajku(n) paave...317

Be bound to courage and awaken remembrance, behold in your inner upliftment(of joy and bliss), the truth(of Holy Deedar). Whatever you visualise in the manifest(zahir) and the hidden(batin), the Truth is in all as the One. There is no space which is bereft of the Truth(i.e He is omnipresent), then why do you go away far to seek Him. If you will annihilate yourself(your ego), then you will be in union with Him. Then you will attain the kingdom of mysteries and wonders.

4]
aval aakhar jaaher baatan, deesataa sunataa so hay;
hay sabaheeme(n) sabase neeyaaraa, or nahee sab vo hay;
ma(n)y or tu(n) kee duee chhodd kar, ek dekh kuchh do nahee(n) hay;
aysaa samaj fanaa ho usame(n), tu(n) nahee tab vo sahee hay...327

The first, the last, the manifest and the hidden, that which is visible and heard, is all He. He is in everything yet he is beyond everything, there is nothing apart from Him. By abandoning the separation between I and you, behold this oneness, there is no duality at all. If you lose yourself in this understanding, you will not exist, it will be He in truth.

This is why I think Zahir=Batin=Noorani Deedar.

Ya Aly Madad
Shamsuddin

Ismailis pray for:
1) Zahiri Deedar
2) Batuni Deedar
3) Noorani Deedar
because these types of Deedar exists.
Deedar is a Deedar for your information.

I am not going through your translations because on many occasions it has been pointed out that you translate ginans wrongly - I have noted the posting which mention how you translated aql into breathing, you got adams and 50000 from nowhere and you translated open eyes as blind, etc. etc.

Not only during our discussions you even termed Noor is Farman and so on and so forth and here you are quoting "All of us are constantly in a state of Noorani Deedar."

As I mentioned:
Ismailis pray for:
1) Zahiri Deedar
2) Batuni Deedar
3) Noorani Deedar
because these types of Deedar exists.
Deedar is a Deedar for your information.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Thu May 22, 2003 9:44 pm

If you are having Zaheri deedar can you also have Batuni Deedar at the same time?

roxy · Post by **roxy** » Fri May 23, 2003 12:41 am

shamsu wrote:If you are having Zaheri deedar can you also have Batuni Deedar at the same time?

Zahiri Deedar is with open eyes.
Batuni Deedar is you see him in your thought. You think of him he appears.

For example a person has zahiri deedar of mawlana hazar imam from where that person is sitting or standing - then when mawlana hazar imam passes that person and He is far away and that person then instead of seeing Him directly - closes the eyes and directs the thought on Him - the imam appears. Even if the imam is sitting in front of the person and the person wants to have a batuni deedar and closes his eyes and remembers the imam - the imam is always there.

In such a way one has a zahiri deedar and one has a batuni deedar when mawlana hazar imam is present.

yasin · Post by **yasin** » Fri May 23, 2003 1:36 am

ya ali madad Shamshu farmans are not eternal,becuase they are meant for the living. That is why the being Hazr and Zinda is so important I have heard Hazar Imam say only the soul is eternal Every other aspect of the world is FANA in nature even the body which is of Hazar Imam Those who do have had the Haqiqati deedar tell us that our soul is the Allah in us Which does make sense that only our soul is Eternal That is why we pray for fana in him and Baka in this zaat fana-anihilation baka-living/being zaat-the being of Allah we might be missing the whole massage when we do argue about the words this or that since the reality is He is US now to talk what he is would be beyond words and of course not possible Sufi have said the fact that he is so near to us and is invisible and because His Nur is so bright He appears in veils so that we can justify that it is Him This deillusion does make us wonder with all the wrong concepts about him He is also fond of playing hide and sike with us which makes the road ever more harder we pray for deedars so that this great dellusion is removed from our mind Thoughts can never take us to the realisation of Haqiqati fanafilla Thoughts are created by us to understand the world in different concepts Mind is the real satan who is ever so clever in creating those doubt Can one have a Deedar with these available tools No never that is why Hazar Imam tells you to leave everything which is a created thing in order to have the ultimate DEEDAR After which you will have no doubts ever on the reality of the Hazar Imam And never argue about his Zaat "The first, the last, the manifest and the hidden, that which is visible and heard, is all He. He is in everything yet he is beyond everything, there is nothing apart from Him. By abandoning the separation between I and you, behold this oneness, there is no duality at all. If you lose yourself in this understanding, you will not exist, it will be He in truth. "

roxy · Post by **roxy** » Fri May 23, 2003 3:56 am

yasin wrote:ya ali madad Shamshu farmans are not eternal,becuase they are meant for the living. That is why the being Hazr and Zinda is so important I have heard Hazar Imam say only the soul is eternal Every other aspect of the world is FANA in nature even the body which is of Hazar Imam Those who do have had the Haqiqati deedar tell us that our soul is the Allah in us Which does make sense that only our soul is Eternal That is why we pray for fana in him and Baka in this zaat fana-anihilation baka-living/being zaat-the being of Allah we might be missing the whole massage when we do argue about the words this or that since the reality is He is US now to talk what he is would be beyond words and of course not possible Sufi have said the fact that he is so near to us and is invisible and because His Nur is so bright He appears in veils so that we can justify that it is Him This deillusion does make us wonder with all the wrong concepts about him He is also fond of playing hide and sike with us which makes the road ever more harder we pray for deedars so that this great dellusion is removed from our mind Thoughts can never take us to the realisation of Haqiqati fanafilla Thoughts are created by us to understand the world in different concepts Mind is the real satan who is ever so clever in creating those doubt Can one have a Deedar with these available tools No never that is why Hazar Imam tells you to leave everything which is a created thing in order to have the ultimate DEEDAR After which you will have no doubts ever on the reality of the Hazar Imam And never argue about his Zaat "The first, the last, the manifest and the hidden, that which is visible and heard, is all He. He is in everything yet he is beyond everything, there is nothing apart from Him. By abandoning the separation between I and you, behold this oneness, there is no duality at all. If you lose yourself in this understanding, you will not exist, it will be He in truth. "

I understand that you reject the ismaili tariqah and the reason for you to reject zahiri deedar, batuni deedar and noorani deedar of mawlana hazar imam/allah is because:

1) mawlana hazar imam says soul is eternal.
2) the person whom you termed as sufi said such and such thing.

Please note, Soul is eternal because allah created people from His soul.
You mention "soul is the Allah in us". In this regard, please note that the soul in you cannot be the allah in you because the soul in you can get corrupted and Allah does not get corrupted. In fact to free the soul of the sin you ask for allah/mawlana hazar imam's forgiveness.

You mention that Sufi has said this and that -- how can one call one a sufi if that that person goes against the farman of mawlana hazar imam and the quran ? Even the quran mention that people used to seek the face of the lord morning and evening and in other places the message conveyed that one should seek the face of the lord morning and evening. Quran also reveals about the holy prophet having the deedar of the lord and his great revealation (the light).

For your info - Allah = Light/Form - Noor is the same and only the form changes and this is done to effect the succession of noor - Light upon Light. The succession of Noor cannot come into effect unless the form changes since allah is light & form. The parable of allah's light clearly reveal that the oil of the blessed olive tree lights the lamp and blessed olive tree is the form of allah and the "Light" is of the blessed olive tree. Without the blessed olive tree - there is no light.

You can also refer the farmans of sultan mohd shah wherein he mention that he changes is form but his light in the same
= Farman No.2 - Kalame Imame Mubin - Part I - Page No.8 & 9.

So everything is made clear by the dua, farmans, prayers and the quran.

Hence your rejecting the zahiri deedar, batuni deedar and noorani deedar of the Lord/God is not justified.

yasin · Post by **yasin** » Sat May 24, 2003 1:27 am

Pluralism, the recognition of people of diverse backgrounds and interests, organisations of different types and projects, different kinds and forms of creative expression, are all valuable and therefore deserving of recognition and support by government and society as a whole. Without support for pluralism, civil society does not function. Pluralism is also essential for peace, a statement that is unfortunately documented by armed conflict in contexts of cultural, ethnic, or religious differences on almost every continent at this time. It is of particular importance here in Central Asia given the demography of most countries.

roxy · Post by **roxy** » Sat May 24, 2003 1:45 am

yasin wrote:Pluralism, the recognition of people of diverse backgrounds and interests, organisations of different types and projects, different kinds and forms of creative expression, are all valuable and therefore deserving of recognition and support by government and society as a whole. Without support for pluralism, civil society does not function. Pluralism is also essential for peace, a statement that is unfortunately documented by armed conflict in contexts of cultural, ethnic, or religious differences on almost every continent at this time. It is of particular importance here in Central Asia given the demography of most countries.

Quran calls for pluralism:
Al-Kafirum - 109
6) Unto you your faith and unto me my faith.

There are many faiths and as far as ismaili faith is concerned the Memoirs of Agakhan reveals:

What has been my own policy with my followers? Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you cannot, if you do not accept its tenets, remain within it and claim to "reform" it. You can abandon those tenets, but you cannot try to change them and still protest that you belong to the particular sect that holds them. Many people have left the Ismaili faith, just as others have joined it throughout the ages. About a score of people out of many millions - a small group in Karachi and in India - pretended to be Ismailis but called themselves "reformers". The true Ismailis immediately excommunicated them. There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, the faith has remained the same and must remain the same. Those who have not believed in it have rightly left it; we bear them no ill-will and respect them for their sincerity.

-- I THINK I HAVE GIVEN ENOUGH TIME FOR THE FORUM - I ENJOYED BEING ON THE FORUM - BYE BYE.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Sun May 25, 2003 8:35 am

Yasin please do not use the visual mode

thanx

shamsu

www.ismaili.net

DEEDAR

DEEDAR

Re: DEEDAR

Deedar

Re: Deedar

True Shamshu may you be bless with this TRUTH (deedar)

Re: True Shamshu may you be bless with this TRUTH (deedar)

why be judgemental ????

Re: why be judgemental ????

Visual mode